Pontification

berrysblaster

Very Active Member
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2,030
Participating in the committee meetings for the upcoming utah elk plan has placed previously held opinions in stark reality.

Currently, 90,000~ applicants are vying for 2200 LE elk tags. If we stopped taking applications this year it would take 43~years to clear. Monroe mountain would take 100~ to clear. There are easier hunts to draw sure, but the broad math paints the picture.

A popular solution is to lower age classes to increase opportunities, roughly speaking, for every age class we drop we can increase permits by about 50%. If take every unit in the state to 5.5-6.5 we’d get almost 3000 permits total and take 13 years off the average draw time. So now just 30 years not counting point creep. 4.5-5.5? 5500 permits and 20~ years if I’ve mathed myself correctly, sorry but that’s not a solution IMO.

Applications in the last 5 years have gone from 300,000~ across all species to 590,000~ last year. That trend looks to continue.

OTC elk permits (spike and anybull) used to be an acceptable option for getting out on the mtn. Last year they sold out in 4 and 6 hrs respectively. They only lasted that long because of administrative limitations.

Demand is far outweighing the way we manage available supply.

So speaking clearly, my kids 7, 4, and about here, will never be guaranteed to hunt branch antlered elk in this state. Your kids, and likely you will only draw one tag if any. The same problems face deer hunting.

If you’ve ever said ‘I’m willing to wait I don’t need to kill another animal’ in some form or fashion, basically saying in your hunting journey you’ve reached a point where you identify as a ‘trophy’ or age class hunter, ask yourself if that mentality or hunting with your kids or grandkids is more important? I’m fairly certain it’ll be the latter for most people.

Make no mistake, this means we have to make choices that will affect ‘your unit’. They will change the places you hunt. In all likelihood your points will be devalued. The cost to fighting that is the future of hunting for our youth, and ourselves. No grey area here. I’m firmly entrenched in opportunity, I want tags in my pocket as frequently as possible. If you feel the same, be proactive and reach out to let people know you aren’t happy with the math presented above.
 
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diablo

Active Member
Messages
794
Good info. You may want to specify what state you’re referring to….

Or post this on the Utah page….
 

HntHrdr

Active Member
Messages
437
I’m with you man… a lot has changed out west in the past few years, Western hunting has become very popular, state populations have increased, at least your state sets aside more tags for residents, just be thankful you aren’t the shootshow that Co is right now. It will be interesting to see what happens in the Rocky Mountain states in the next few years
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
Messages
1,885
Agree and to add to what you stated here about opportunity - the way we are managing elk in Utah on many of the more premium units, is not only bad for hunters (extremely low opportunity), but it is also detrimental to the elk herd.

We manage for age objective on bull harvest, but also have to maintain a population objective at the same time. This translates to killing very few bulls on the best units and killing cows to maintain the population objective. Not a good recipe for a productive and healthy herd. The Beaver unit has been discussed plenty here and in recent DWR meetings, but is a great example of this conundrum.

It is far past time to do what is right for both hunters and the herd/resource - change is needed. I hope we get the right changes in place!
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,905
so "not happy" is stated. now whats your solution?
I think he stated that he was in the "more tags for opportunity" camp.

We wouldn't have nearly the amount of applicants if we somehow did away with social media! Hey, a guy can dream of the days when we hunted to hunt and not for the "likes" on our posts.

It's not going to be a guaranteed tag for the youth regardless of how many tags are given out. Demand far out-stripped the supply decades ago!

Zeke
 

JPickett

Very Active Member
Messages
2,334
think he stated that he was in the "more tags for opportunity" camp.
I guess. But that seems like kinda an easy out there. I want more opportunity too but how. I don’t know that lower age class is a complete explanation. In fact it makes maybe more questions.

For the record, I don’t think there’s an answer. All things change or come to an end. Hunting isn’t what it was 50 years ago and it won’t be what it is now in 50 years. One reason I’m so adamantly against points. What numbers he have up there 40 something years to draw a tag? Good ole days are gone, completely random with no points then at least you got a chance since odds are you’re not drawing a tag in your life any way. I see only up side
 

berrysblaster

Very Active Member
Messages
2,030
I want everything north of I-70 to go OTC. I want an either or restriction meaning you can hunt OTC or apply LE but not both. I want all of the southern units managed for the biggest bulls in the world. Is that clear enough?
 

hogg_65

Active Member
Messages
761
Utah has reached the time to choose between elk or deer to hunt. Only choose 1 to apply for not both. Only General or LE, not both. Only apply for one, not both. That is what future is looking like. I am fine with that. The tag cuts will continue, No way to stop it. The Auction tags will continue, to much value for dwr to stop allowing it. I just want to hunt deer on the unit I've hunted for 30 years as a tag holder, more often than every 4-6 years. I would rather hunt and eat a deer ,than an elk. My preference... I want everyone to be able to hunt the way they have hunted. Change is tough, nobody wants change, but change is needed. Having both a deer and elk tag spoiled everyone. That's all most have ever known. It's time to only choose 1.... Right or wrong, that's my opinion. Makes me sick to type it.
 

Horsecorn

Active Member
Messages
689
It’s sure funny that we hear people say that the youth and lots of people are losing interest in hunting And are giving it up. i wish they would hurry up and quit so I can hunt more. From the sounds of your numbers that certainly isn’t the case.
 

idahomuleyhunter

Active Member
Messages
452
Utah has reached the time to choose between elk or deer to hunt. Only choose 1 to apply for not both. Only General or LE, not both. Only apply for one, not both. That is what future is looking like. I am fine with that. The tag cuts will continue, No way to stop it. The Auction tags will continue, to much value for dwr to stop allowing it. I just want to hunt deer on the unit I've hunted for 30 years as a tag holder, more often than every 4-6 years. I would rather hunt and eat a deer ,than an elk. My preference... I want everyone to be able to hunt the way they have hunted. Change is tough, nobody wants change, but change is needed. Having both a deer and elk tag spoiled everyone. That's all most have ever known. It's time to only choose 1.... Right or wrong, that's my opinion. Makes me sick to type it.
One species application per year would go a long way in bettering draw odds.
 

huntin50

Very Active Member
Messages
1,413
Change hunt structure more like AZ. Open sight muzzle loaders. Very few rifle rut hunts. Shorter season as needed. Choose general elk, antlerless, or LE elk. Choose deer, elk, or antelope only. Some options. Sad truth we are going to have more people the next several years in Utah that want to hunt and limited resource.
 

Airborne

Member
Messages
75
Status Quo until the following occurs:



All LE tags go to 5+ points to draw

General/Spike OTC elk sell out in under an hour

Once these two events happen then we look at changes, here are some brainstorming ideas:

Regarding Elk

Keep 50/50 random and bonus point structure, season dates, etc. Merge all elk into one point pool (LE, General, Antlerless) you put in for one draw for everything. draw anything and lose points. Those that did not draw in draw#1 get a second chance at leftovers in draw#2, if you draw a tag in either draw you lose points. Leftovers after draw #2 go OTC--pick one of these up lose points. Once the season starts for any particular tag that is left over OTC that tag can be picked up without losing points at that time.

My expectation would be that current general tag areas and most anterless would be very easy to pick up in draw #1, and fairly easy in draw#2 meaning lots of opportunity and those who want to sit on the sidelines for a choice LE tag will continue to wait until they get lucky or have max points

Keep OTC elk archery spike/cow/any bull but you lose all elk points if you pick up a tag.

Now for Deer

Much like elk, keep 50/50 random and bonus point structure, season dates, etc. Merge all Deer draws and points (LE, General, Antlerless), Treat it same as elk, 2 draws, lose points if you pick up any tag. Lifetime license holders get a tag from current general units or can put in for LE units but that takes their tag for the year if they apply.

Just brainstorming here fellas...
 
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elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
29,654
Hey BEAVIS!

I Told You The Point System Wouldn't Work!

But You Were Still Spittin Yellow at That Time!

The UDWR Informed Me That It Would Work!

I Called BS!

I Said:

It Will Seem Like It's Working For a Few Years!

But Where Will We Be Down The Road 20-25 Years?

Well,Here The HELL We Are!

How You Liking This DISASTROUS Battle Plan Now?

Must Be Good Huh?

Now You Wanna Start Killin PISSCUTTERS!
 

bucks

Active Member
Messages
206
Back in 2000,When Utah was all about getting the Olympics to come to our state,/you could actually get about any tag you wanted with less than a handful of points.We got the Olympics and the population has increased by more than double in 20 plus years.Im not saying that the Olympics has all to blame on Utahs population increase,But back in 2000 you could actually cross highway 40 in Heber city.
There is no way for every hunter to get a tag they want, even if there were no point systems.
Supply and Demand. Its sad but true.:confused:
 

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,987
The best way to put more LE elk hunters in the field and kill less mature bulls is to convert the Late LE any weapon Elk Hunts to a primitive weapon hunt. This is Muzzleloaders with Open sights and archery with fixed 3 pin sights.
We could literally triple the hunters and kill the same amount of elk
 

heartshot

Very Active Member
Messages
2,299
If you drop the age class, is the 50% more tags sustainable? Or will it only last for a couple years and then you will be right back at the same low number of tags but with a lower age class.? If it was sustainable (I don't think it is), wouldn't it be better to close the hunt down a couple years and then have 50% more tags forever more at the high age class. It seems a lot more complicated than simple math.
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,905
If you drop the age class, is the 50% more tags sustainable? Or will it only last for a couple years and then you will be right back at the same low number of tags but with a lower age class.? If it was sustainable (I don't think it is), wouldn't it be better to close the hunt down a couple years and then have 50% more tags forever more at the high age class. It seems a lot more complicated than simple math.
Interestingly, that's exactly what I was thinking.

It might last 2-5 years then tags will have to be cut anyway and we will end up having younger animals.

Zeke
 

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,987
If you drop the age class, is the 50% more tags sustainable? Or will it only last for a couple years and then you will be right back at the same low number of tags but with a lower age class.? If it was sustainable (I don't think it is), wouldn't it be better to close the hunt down a couple years and then have 50% more tags forever more at the high age class. It seems a lot more complicated than simple math.
I had the same thought.
Just because you lower the age class doesn't mean there would be more bulls to kill. It just means for a few years they would kill a few more and then eventually the same number of bulls would get killed as before. The only difference is they would get killed a year or two younger than before.
 

berrysblaster

Very Active Member
Messages
2,030
It’s sustainable because you are making more bulls on the landscape available via age class. It’s not a solution IMO. The wasatch is almost a 20 point draw and headed for 30.
 

heartshot

Very Active Member
Messages
2,299
More bulls available on the landscape can only last so long (not sustainable). To lower the age class you have to shoot more bulls, meaning more tags. Once the the desired lower age class is reached (a few years) you have to cut tags back to where they were. If you don't cut the tags back, the average age class will continue to decline until you reach numbers that mimic general units and success rates fall off the earth.
 

Packout

Very Active Member
Messages
1,427
Actually, lowering the age does mean you have more bulls to kill overall, over time. For the first few years permits could possibly double (depending on the age difference of the objectives), then as it comes into the age objective there would still be 50%-ish more permits available. High age objectives can't kill the bulls as they come into the managed age range- because so many bulls are still killed younger than the objective so they have to carry a surplus of older bulls to off-set the younger kills. And people will kill a 340 6yo bull on an 8 year old unit and pass on the 10yo 310 5x6. That is why we have had units get to 1 to 1 bull/cow ratios like the Beaver this year and the San Juan, Monroe in the past.

And since we are killing the bulls a little sooner, we don't need to carry as many bulls for more years. Carrying less bulls means we can carry more cows- so cow tags could actually decrease for a time. More cows means we can produce more calves. More calves means more yearlings for spike hunts and more cows for cow hunts in future years. The herd is far more productive- even if they can't be managed like a cattle herd.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,496
I believe many are missing the point, part of what they are trying to accomplish is decrease the amount of mature bulls on some of these units (85 mature bulls per 100 head of cows Beaver).

What is wrong with giving more hunters the opportunity to hunt mature bulls and lowering the age class. Yes they probably would have to cut tags after a few years but they decrease the amount of mature bulls which allows to increase cow numbers, it would only take a few years to have the bull numbers up and increase the age class again.
They started the spike bull elk on the Manti and Fish Lake around 1990, at that time it was a miracle to find a 6 point bull much less anything over 300 class. The number of cow elk on the Manti was probably higher than it is today. If I remember right it was only a few years later they began giving draw permits for Any Bull and by the early 2000s hunters were killing 400 class bulls.
You can manage elk like this but not deer.
I say move point holders through the system.
I also agree with making hunters decide between over the counter or limited entry. If there is left over over the counter after the over the counter archery elk starts then limited entry can purchase over the counter on first come first serve.
But then again I say we need to cut the elk herd down drastically and allow the deer numbers to come back up.
Just my opinion.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
29,654
If You Haven't Been In The Woods Much You'd Already Know They Have Shot The Sshit Out Of Our Elk Herd Already!

This Management Of This State Always Amazes Me!

Keep Hammering Cows & Spikes & Then Wonder Why We've got an Out Of Balance Herd!

Now notdon!

If Killing Every Elk Would Bring The Deer Herd Back To The Mid 60's-70's I Say GITTER DONE!:D

But That Sshit Ain't Happening!

Everybody/Every Tahn Wants To Kill a 3 Year Old Trophy PISSCUTTER!

It's Done It's Over With!

There's Only One Thing Good About Being Born 20 Years Too Late!

It Beats Being Born 50 Years Too Late!





I believe many are missing the point, part of what they are trying to accomplish is decrease the amount of mature bulls on some of these units (85 mature bulls per 100 head of cows Beaver).

What is wrong with giving more hunters the opportunity to hunt mature bulls and lowering the age class. Yes they probably would have to cut tags after a few years but they decrease the amount of mature bulls which allows to increase cow numbers, it would only take a few years to have the bull numbers up and increase the age class again.
They started the spike bull elk on the Manti and Fish Lake around 1990, at that time it was a miracle to find a 6 point bull much less anything over 300 class. The number of cow elk on the Manti was probably higher than it is today. If I remember right it was only a few years later they began giving draw permits for Any Bull and by the early 2000s hunters were killing 400 class bulls.
You can manage elk like this but not deer.
I say move point holders through the system.
I also agree with making hunters decide between over the counter or limited entry. If there is left over over the counter after the over the counter archery elk starts then limited entry can purchase over the counter on first come first serve.
But then again I say we need to cut the elk herd down drastically and allow the deer numbers to come back up.
Just my opinion.
 

gundog2

Active Member
Messages
231
You can’t have general opportunity hunts for deer and elk in a state like Utah…and then complain that LE deer and elk trophy hunts are difficult to draw. This system might have seemed like it was working for a little while, but now the “general“ deer hunts are actually draw hunts and the “general” elk licenses that sell out in hours. Many of the antlerless elk tags are also hard to draw, The LE buck and bull hunts look hopeless to low point holders. All elk tags need to go into one pool and all deer tags need to go into one pool if you want to start tackling these problems. The idea of combining all deer and all elk tags into one pool might actually be a good way to seriously address point creep and still have descent opportunity hunts available for either species.

This thread should be in the Utah forum.
 

yak4fish

Active Member
Messages
215
You can’t have general opportunity hunts for deer and elk in a state like Utah…and then complain that LE deer and elk trophy hunts are difficult to draw. This system might have seemed like it was working for a little while, but now the “general“ deer hunts are actually draw hunts and the “general” elk licenses that sell out in hours. Many of the antlerless elk tags are also hard to draw, The LE buck and bull hunts look hopeless to low point holders. All elk tags need to go into one pool and all deer tags need to go into one pool if you want to start tackling these problems. The idea of combining all deer and all elk tags into one pool might actually be a good way to seriously address point creep and still have descent opportunity hunts available for either species.

This thread should be in the Utah forum.
Since supply is not keeping up with demand this is the only way that I can see to slow point creep.
 

stripey22

New Member
Messages
4
I skimmed most of the replies and didn’t see this. Wouldn’t requiring the full tag cost up front with the application cut way down on the casual non hunter applicants? Or cut down on guys entering applications for all of their kids and wives and parents. Then refund the tag cost less the $10 app fee if you don’t draw. I know it wouldn’t be enough to solve the problem by itself but in combination with other things?
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,396
I skimmed most of the replies and didn’t see this. Wouldn’t requiring the full tag cost up front with the application cut way down on the casual non hunter applicants? Or cut down on guys entering applications for all of their kids and wives and parents. Then refund the tag cost less the $10 app fee if you don’t draw. I know it wouldn’t be enough to solve the problem by itself but in combination with other things?

No, it wouldn't. We all thought the same thing would happen in NM when they switched to that and applications have been steadily climbing.

All it takes is a designated credit card used once per year and the sky's the limit.
 

D33RHNTR

Active Member
Messages
144
There are many little things that could be done that will have large over all impacts on the draws and point creep and little impact to hunters as a whole. Sadly, that isn’t the route the RACs, “committees” and WB are going to go, and we’ll get hammered with new stupid ideas that have little to no positive outcome and will just create an even bigger issue.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,496
There are many little things that could be done that will have large over all impacts on the draws and point creep and little impact to hunters as a whole. Sadly, that isn’t the route the RACs, “committees” and WB are going to go, and we’ll get hammered with new stupid ideas that have little to no positive outcome and will just create an even bigger issue.
I would like to hear the little things that could be done.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
Messages
2,690
Status Quo until the following occurs:



All LE tags go to 5+ points to draw

General/Spike OTC elk sell out in under an hour

Once these two events happen then we look at changes, here are some brainstorming ideas:

Regarding Elk

Keep 50/50 random and bonus point structure, season dates, etc. Merge all elk into one point pool (LE, General, Antlerless) you put in for one draw for everything. draw anything and lose points. Those that did not draw in draw#1 get a second chance at leftovers in draw#2, if you draw a tag in either draw you lose points. Leftovers after draw #2 go OTC--pick one of these up lose points. Once the season starts for any particular tag that is left over OTC that tag can be picked up without losing points at that time.

My expectation would be that current general tag areas and most anterless would be very easy to pick up in draw #1, and fairly easy in draw#2 meaning lots of opportunity and those who want to sit on the sidelines for a choice LE tag will continue to wait until they get lucky or have max points

Keep OTC elk archery spike/cow/any bull but you lose all elk points if you pick up a tag.

Now for Deer

Much like elk, keep 50/50 random and bonus point structure, season dates, etc. Merge all Deer draws and points (LE, General, Antlerless), Treat it same as elk, 2 draws, lose points if you pick up any tag. Lifetime license holders get a tag from current general units or can put in for LE units but that takes their tag for the year if they apply.

Just brainstorming here fellas...

I used to be very against this idea, but I’m warming to it and ultimately think it’s probably the best thing to do. I prefer this over 1 species only or trying to create fake opportunities by getting rid of or changing point systems or changing seasons around. I would vote for this proposal if it meant we could potentially hunt elk and deer in the same year still.

Single point pool per species but let us apply for, and if lucky and/or smart enough, hunt both still each year. You get any tag for that species you lose your points. (I like the exception of you but an OTC tag after season starts, then keep points.)
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
710
Look this has been slowly becoming a problem over years.


Tons of ideas have been thrown out there and nobody can agree on anyone of them.
There no way to fix the point creep period on LE Elk . The 30 LE Elk unit's/ mid to high point holders/money. Control this mess where in right now on our GS Elk.

So here is one of my ideas


There is one thing that can be fixed and that's our GS anybull units.

Make all GS anybull units 4 point or better. Then you can have unlimited tags for residence only.
If that isn't an option! Then we need to start splitting up some of these big LE units in half. ( book cliffs-Wasatch-south west desert-Manti) and open them up to GS anybull.
Yes points creep will sky rocket! But we all have to understand we can't have it the way it is right now it's simply is not working.

by all means throw out some ideas but also keep in mind about our kids and grand kids.

 

D33RHNTR

Active Member
Messages
144
Managing elk to a 1:1 bull cow ratio, which is what is happening on many hunts right Now absolute bullshiz. Manage on a 15:100 or 20:100. Clear out the excess bulls, replace them with cows. Which should help recruit almost double the amount of elk annually than what we currently have, which will create more opportunities for bull and antlerless harvest in the long run. We have no need to have 9 year old bulls on the landscape anymore. Its very obvious guys would rather hunt 300 bulls every 5-7 years instead of a 340 bull once in their lifetime. Many current units need to be cut in half to make 2 new units.

The rifle hunt needs to be out of September. PERIOD. That is terrible management on both the animals and hunters side. The late rifle hunt needs to get gone too, and replaced with a late archery, November 10-20. Every 3 years alternate it to a HAMS hunt for a season and then go back to archery. Do an early archery hunt in September too 10-20. You don’t hunt with a bow? Well you’re either gonna learn or your gonna wait 25 more years to get your rifle permit that is now October 10-15. You could do an early muzzleloader hunt (no scopes of any kind, opens sights only), august 1-10. The general archery spike/cow or any bull will mirror the general deer archery dates. Spike/any bull general rifle is October 1-9. Muzzleloader spike/any bull November 1-9. ALL rifle cow hunts are December 1-31. None in January. Even the private lands hunts end in December. Those elk are in need of a break in January.

For deer, I’d only make a few changes, but not many. Apply for your LE hunt if that’s your species of choice and hunt general season units until you draw a LE tag. I would make it so the DH can’t hunt both rifle seasons in the hunts that have 2 seasons. You have to pick one. DH also can’t participate in the extended archery hunt. Maybe cut the archery hunt down into 2 separate seasons as well. LE deer muzzleloader could be open sights only. The LE hunts in general units in November would be an archery hunt with only 5 days in the season, November 5-10.

As far as pronghorn goes, it doesn’t really matter the weapon, they are the easiest one for people to find success on. You could do a couple more archery hunts In place of the muzzleloader hunts. Do your first archery to mirror the general deer and elk archery dates, then do an early rifle hunt to get them tuned up, and then hold 2 more archery buck hunts after that. Those would be a real challenge for guys I think.

OIL, I’d do 2 permits on every unit for rifle. The rest would be archery only, open sight muzzleloader or maybe HAMS. I would also create a law with OIL species that if you wound an animal and draw blood but fail to recover it, that still counts as your animal. Violation of this law prohibits you from apply for any OIL species ever again, as well as lose hunting rights for 5 years. Also, you need a minimum of 5 points for a specific species before your eligible for a permit in the drawing. It will keep the serious guys committed and the non serious guys from getting lucky.

Less effective weapons are the future of hunting if you want more opportunities to get tags. Antlerless hunts are management hunts, so keep them ALW. You could get into weapon restrictions if you wanted to create more opportunities there, but I don’t see the need for it yet.

Then you could do things like erasing points every year if you don’t apply for a tag (or points). Wyoming does it if you fail 2 apply for 2 years, but they have way less people and way more animals than utah, so EVERY year would definitely make an impact on point creep, particularly in the preference points draws. It would keep the serious guys in the game and kick out the guys who don’t really care that much about it and apply when it’s convenient. If you can’t hunt that year, find the 15 minutes it takes to apply in a 2 month window and buy a point. If you don’t, points are gone and set back to 0. No exceptions.

The spike, any bull and general deer hunts are very important to most utah hunters. Keeping them in play will keep everyone in the game still and give them opportunities to get out hunting frequently if they wanted (most do). I would cut the general archery deer hunt dates in half. a month long season is pretty lengthy. I think the rest I would keep the same. But some major changes to the LE and OIL hunts would help with opportunities and cutting point creep. I know rifles are convenient and easy to use, but that’s part of the problem. Learn to use a muzzleloader or bow. Both of which can be picked up used for very reasonable prices.
 
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slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,724
The September rifle hunt should never have been implemented in the first place decades ago, but how are you going to explain that to 90k applicants who have 20 years invested for that particular reason?

More of the same polar opposite ideology comments here......"quit killing spikes" and the next argument is "there are way too many raghorn bulls".

Aren't raghorn bulls survivors of the previous years spike hunts?

How are we getting such high B/C ratios if we are killing too many spikes?

Shouldn't we be killing more bulls and saving more cows to keep the cycle rolling?
 
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slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,724
Slam
Which units again had B/C Ratios.
Was it Beaver/Monroe/Fishlake/Pahvant .Didn't we add tags to those units?
Beaver is 1/1 ratio for sure, but there were others really high as well.
I haven't looked at tag allocations followed by that concensus, but I would feel safe to assume they allocated additional tags to address it.

Maybe someone can post them up.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,396
The September rifle hunt should never have been implemented in the first place decades ago, but how are you going to explain that to 90k applicants who have 20 years invested for that particular reason?

Same way you tell someone who has $5k invested in their tech and long range rifle and they can't use it anymore.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,724
Perhaps we need to adopt Deseret Land & Livestock's program.

1:1 B/C ratios and lot's of bull tags.
No need to kill spikes if you're removing lots of mature bulls.
Draw back is 330" will be the norm, 360" a giant.

Remove cows to keep the balance.
 
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Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
710
They shut the Monroe down in 2013 or 2014

Jan 10, 2019 ... Monroe back as a spike hunting unit. Chris Wood: Doesn't it add a spike hunt to other hunts that are on the Monroe as well?


The only reason I say this is remember we shut down the Monroe for 5 or 6 years to spike hunting.
All these units surround the Monroe just a stone throw away.

So this is a very good possibility shutting down the Monroe could of helped beaver unit get to that 1 to 1 ratio.

They have added tags on all those units this year Slam. So I strongly think with the Monroe being shut down to spike hunt for 5 years did help with that.
 
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txhunter58

Long Time Member
Messages
7,843
NR applications:

Allow a person to submit only one species/hunt application for a TAG.

Apply to other species/ hunts for points only. That way the state still gets their money from apps

That would greatly improve the odds for the species you apply for overnight

You do realize that we are currently applying for multiple tags but can only draw one tag right?

Can residents now apply for all species?
 

huntin50

Very Active Member
Messages
1,413
Residents can apply for elk, deer, or lope, and ONE once in a life time tag.
No-REs can apply for all, but draw one tag, the same as residents. Can apply for general season tags as well as antlerless.
 

Themaddness

Member
Messages
21
How come nobody addresses habitat on this thread. If tag sales for Antelope Island can generate enough money to maintain the herds of animals out there then how come WE as sportsman cannot come up with a way to better develope the vast deserts of utah into better quality big game habitat.
More habitat=game=opertunity
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
Messages
1,885
How come nobody addresses habitat on this thread. If tag sales for Antelope Island can generate enough money to maintain the herds of animals out there then how come WE as sportsman cannot come up with a way to better develope the vast deserts of utah into better quality big game habitat.
More habitat=game=opertunity
Because they are too busy worrying about a variable scope on a muzzleloader 🤦‍♂️
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,724
How come nobody addresses habitat on this thread. If tag sales for Antelope Island can generate enough money to maintain the herds of animals out there then how come WE as sportsman cannot come up with a way to better develope the vast deserts of utah into better quality big game habitat.
More habitat=game=opertunity
"Nobody"?
I have posted about Conservation and habitat projects for years.......crickets and criticism.
 

Themaddness

Member
Messages
21
I know that over the last 15 years I have shoveled more waterholes than I can count on the San Rafael, Escalate, Boulder, Range Creek units. If everyone is as passionate about getting tags and needing a place to hunt as these posts suggest Give it a try.
 

Pinetree

Active Member
Messages
101
Managing elk to a 1:1 bull cow ratio, which is what is happening on many hunts right Now absolute bullshiz. Manage on a 15:100 or 20:100. Clear out the excess bulls, replace them with cows. Which should help recruit almost double the amount of elk annually than what we currently have, which will create more opportunities for bull and antlerless harvest in the long run. We have no need to have 9 year old bulls on the landscape anymore. Its very obvious guys would rather hunt 300 bulls every 5-7 years instead of a 340 bull once in their lifetime. Many current units need to be cut in half to make 2 new units.

The rifle hunt needs to be out of September. PERIOD. That is terrible management on both the animals and hunters side. The late rifle hunt needs to get gone too, and replaced with a late archery, November 10-20. Every 3 years alternate it to a HAMS hunt for a season and then go back to archery. Do an early archery hunt in September too 10-20. You don’t hunt with a bow? Well you’re either gonna learn or your gonna wait 25 more years to get your rifle permit that is now October 10-15. You could do an early muzzleloader hunt (no scopes of any kind, opens sights only), august 1-10. The general archery spike/cow or any bull will mirror the general deer archery dates. Spike/any bull general rifle is October 1-9. Muzzleloader spike/any bull November 1-9. ALL rifle cow hunts are December 1-31. None in January. Even the private lands hunts end in December. Those elk are in need of a break in January.

For deer, I’d only make a few changes, but not many. Apply for your LE hunt if that’s your species of choice and hunt general season units until you draw a LE tag. I would make it so the DH can’t hunt both rifle seasons in the hunts that have 2 seasons. You have to pick one. DH also can’t participate in the extended archery hunt. Maybe cut the archery hunt down into 2 separate seasons as well. LE deer muzzleloader could be open sights only. The LE hunts in general units in November would be an archery hunt with only 5 days in the season, November 5-10.

As far as pronghorn goes, it doesn’t really matter the weapon, they are the easiest one for people to find success on. You could do a couple more archery hunts In place of the muzzleloader hunts. Do your first archery to mirror the general deer and elk archery dates, then do an early rifle hunt to get them tuned up, and then hold 2 more archery buck hunts after that. Those would be a real challenge for guys I think.

OIL, I’d do 2 permits on every unit for rifle. The rest would be archery only, open sight muzzleloader or maybe HAMS. I would also create a law with OIL species that if you wound an animal and draw blood but fail to recover it, that still counts as your animal. Violation of this law prohibits you from apply for any OIL species ever again, as well as lose hunting rights for 5 years. Also, you need a minimum of 5 points for a specific species before your eligible for a permit in the drawing. It will keep the serious guys committed and the non serious guys from getting lucky.

Less effective weapons are the future of hunting if you want more opportunities to get tags. Antlerless hunts are management hunts, so keep them ALW. You could get into weapon restrictions if you wanted to create more opportunities there, but I don’t see the need for it yet.

Then you could do things like erasing points every year if you don’t apply for a tag (or points). Wyoming does it if you fail 2 apply for 2 years, but they have way less people and way more animals than utah, so EVERY year would definitely make an impact on point creep, particularly in the preference points draws. It would keep the serious guys in the game and kick out the guys who don’t really care that much about it and apply when it’s convenient. If you can’t hunt that year, find the 15 minutes it takes to apply in a 2 month window and buy a point. If you don’t, points are gone and set back to 0. No exceptions.

The spike, any bull and general deer hunts are very important to most utah hunters. Keeping them in play will keep everyone in the game still and give them opportunities to get out hunting frequently if they wanted (most do). I would cut the general archery deer hunt dates in half. a month long season is pretty lengthy. I think the rest I would keep the same. But some major changes to the LE and OIL hunts would help with opportunities and cutting point creep. I know rifles are convenient and easy to use, but that’s part of the problem. Learn to use a muzzleloader or bow. Both of which can be picked up used for very reasonable prices.
That's about the stupidest idea I've ever heard just about everything you stated....
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
6,203
60+ posts and only one guy has said to raise prices. Roadrunner says that won’t work, but you should always do the opposite of what he says.

The laws of economics are real, but I’m not sure they even teach it anymore.

Keep shuffling those deck chairs.
 

Gator

Long Time Member
Messages
17,683
If you think it bad now wait as more people move into your state with more kids and as they grow up and start hunting how many more will get into the tag race. There isn't anyway to stop the population from growing. So the deal is you have grow more animals to keep up with the tags which is HARD to do.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,724
If you think it bad now wait as more people move into your state with more kids and as they grow up and start hunting how many more will get into the tag race. There isn't anyway to stop the population from growing. So the deal is you have grow more animals to keep up with the tags which is HARD to do.
Or.....we continue down this same path, discourage hunter recruitment, and watch it all fade away.
 

berrysblaster

Very Active Member
Messages
2,030
60+ posts and only one guy has said to raise prices. Roadrunner says that won’t work, but you should always do the opposite of what he says.

The laws of economics are real, but I’m not sure they even teach it anymore.

Keep shuffling those deck chairs.
IMO the economics based concept called barriers to entry are the only real solution.

To be very clear, I HATE THEM.

In no world will I ever support sending the message that we don’t want you here by making it harder to apply or hunt. However, just because I don’t support the idea doesn’t mean it isn’t the correct one.

With regard to elk specifically, I think we need to increase the OTC options and move to an either or mentality. Meaning, you can choose to hunt either the LE or the OTC but not both. Pick your poison, but you can’t have your cake and eat it anymore.

I have mulled a structure like this over and think it would provide a bit of the best of both worlds:

1. Mandatory harvest report
2. 5 point or better restriction
3. Either OTC or LE restriction choose one or the other
4. GS eligibility: archery every year, muzz every other, rifle every 3rd. Harvest adds an additional year. IF INELIGIBLE FOR OTC YOU CAN ACQUIRE LE POINTS
5. Season changes muzz 3rd sat in august to first Friday sept, archery first Saturday in September to first Friday October, rifle same dates.

Pick 8 units state wide and make them 7.5-8.5 and structure the rest along the lines of the above as a capped OTC hunt like we currently have.

I’d be real curious to see what kind of permit numbers you could project with a 30% average success rate (rifle 50%, muzz 25%, archery 15%) if we kept these 8 units LE:
San Juan
Boulder
Beaver
South cache
Nebo
Book cliffs
Pahvant
NS 3 corners

My guess is we could offer somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-70,000 permits in what would be the best OTC hunt in the west. It’s a guess though and it’s dependent on how many people move to primitive/don’t harvest by choice to hunt more frequently because of the restrictions outlined in the structure above. I hoped theoretically it would be a substantial number.

I think logistically that services most of the state with a LE and GS option fairly close by.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,396
If you think it bad now wait as more people move into your state with more kids and as they grow up and start hunting how many more will get into the tag race. There isn't anyway to stop the population from growing. So the deal is you have grow more animals to keep up with the tags which is HARD to do.

The population thing is fixin' to self regulate...
 

Homer

Long Time Member
Messages
12,146
60+ posts and only one guy has said to raise prices. Roadrunner says that won’t work, but you should always do the opposite of what he says.

The laws of economics are real, but I’m not sure they even teach it anymore.

Keep shuffling those deck chairs.
They don't .....
 

fullcry

Active Member
Messages
722
Has anyone truly looked at how many new applications are in the system in almost every state for deer and elk.It’s staggering.
These are all great ideas you guys have come up with.
But the bottom line is no matter what changes they make.It’s not going to make a difference!!
There are just too many people applying for a very limited amount of tags.
You better start treating every deer and elk Tag you draw as OIL because that is coming too. Sadly most of our kids just starting will NEVER draw a premium tag in Any State.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,396
Has anyone truly looked at how many new applications are in the system in almost every state for deer and elk.It’s staggering.
These are all great ideas you guys have come up with.
But the bottom line is no matter what changes they make.It’s not going to make a difference!!
There are just too many people applying for a very limited amount of tags.
You better start treating every deer and elk Tag you draw as OIL because that is coming too. Sadly most of our kids just starting will NEVER draw a premium tag in Any State.

Not true. I know "kids" that draw premium tags every year. Sometimes the same tag two years in a row.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,396
Kind of not applicable since NM does not have a point system

Didn't know there was a set of "rules" to have to discuss other states that have 5 day seasons.

Points are what is irrelevant. The chances of you pulling some of those 5 day hunts in NM are way more difficult than many point hunts.

The point to 5 day hunts was to anawer the incorrect assumption that 5 day hunts won't work because most people fill out on the first 5 days of a 14 day hunt. A point system has absolutely nothing to do with it.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,724
I've posted numerous posts in the past on projects and get the same arguments about that as I do over this technology and other proposals the state and concerned sportsmen are trying to address, nobody here wants to budge on either one.
Criticism to those who actually do something is the only answer.
It's unbelievable....
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,396
I've posted numerous posts in the past on projects and get the same arguments about that as I do over this technology and other proposals the state and concerned sportsmen are trying to address, nobody here wants to budge on either one.
Criticism to those who actually do something is the only answer.
It's unbelievable....

It's because you're not really trying to address the problem. You're only trying to satisfy a preference.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,396
I do waaay more than "sit".
I put augers and shovels in my hand and bust my ass all over this state physically doing habitat projects.
"Sitting" on my ass raising dollars for conservation at the Expo and numerous banquets that I put on are the fun part.

Raising dollars? You have no idea what you're talking about. As usual.

Who said anything about an Expo?

Doesn't surprise me your two little lap dogs giggle and like what you have to say.

Catch you later, "moderator"...
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
710
I did some research last night. This is muzzleloader.

In 2013
Permits issued was 15,694
Hunter afield was. 13,578
With 30.7% success

In 2014
Permits issued was 15,825
Hunter afield was. 13,502
With 31.1% success

In 2015
Permits issued was 16,149
Hunter afield was. 13,873
With 34.5% success

In 2016
Permits issued was 16,941
Hunter afield was. 14,561
With 39.3 % success

In 2017
Permits issued was 16,279
Hunter afield was. 14,218
With 33.5% success

In 2018
Permits issued was. 16,734
Hunter afield was. 14,134
With 37.5% success

In 2019
Permits issued was. 16,342
Hunter’s afield was. 13,840
With 27% success

In 2020
Permits issued was 14,712
Hunter’s afield was. 12,801
With 30.1. % success.

There is no data on 2021 but we all know there was less tags that year as well.

But it pretty obvious that there was a spike in success in 2016. This is when scopes where allowed.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
Messages
1,885
I did some research last night. This is muzzleloader.

In 2013
Permits issued was 15,694
Hunter afield was. 13,578
With 30.7% success

In 2014
Permits issued was 15,825
Hunter afield was. 13,502
With 31.1% success

In 2015
Permits issued was 16,149
Hunter afield was. 13,873
With 34.5% success

In 2016
Permits issued was 16,941
Hunter afield was. 14,561
With 39.3 % success

In 2017
Permits issued was 16,279
Hunter afield was. 14,218
With 33.5% success

In 2018
Permits issued was. 16,734
Hunter afield was. 14,134
With 37.5% success

In 2019
Permits issued was. 16,342
Hunter’s afield was. 13,840
With 27% success

In 2020
Permits issued was 14,712
Hunter’s afield was. 12,801
With 30.1. % success.

There is no data on 2021 but we all know there was less tags that year as well.

But it pretty obvious that there was a spike in success in 2016. This is when scopes where allowed.
No offense, but I don’t think your conclusion is even close to accurate. Was there a spike in success from 2015 to 2016 based on this data? Yes obviously there was from one year to the next, but you are also discounting years 17-20 when the rate normalized and even dipped lower and scopes were allowed then. Also, there could be many other factors that contributed to the jump to 39.3% success rate in 2016 but we don’t have all of that info available.

If nothing else the data actually shows scopes have very little impact on the AVERAGE success rate.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,724
No offense, but I don’t think your conclusion is even close to accurate. Was there a spike in success from 2015 to 2016 based on this data? Yes obviously there was from one year to the next, but you are also discounting years 17-20 when the rate normalized and even dipped lower and scopes were allowed then. Also, there could be many other factors that contributed to the jump to 39.3% success rate in 2016 but we don’t have all of that info available.

If nothing else the data actually shows scopes have very little impact on the AVERAGE success rate.
Again, success rates are not the only factor WB uses for consideration.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,724
No offense, but I don’t think your conclusion is even close to accurate. Was there a spike in success from 2015 to 2016 based on this data? Yes obviously there was from one year to the next, but you are also discounting years 17-20 when the rate normalized and even dipped lower and scopes were allowed then. Also, there could be many other factors that contributed to the jump to 39.3% success rate in 2016 but we don’t have all of that info available.

If nothing else the data actually shows scopes have very little impact on the AVERAGE success rate.
FWIW, there certainly is on the LE hunts.
Screenshot_20220725-133933_Gallery.jpg
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
710
No offense, but I don’t think your conclusion is even close to accurate. Was there a spike in success from 2015 to 2016 based on this data? Yes obviously there was from one year to the next, but you are also discounting years 17-20 when the rate normalized and even dipped lower and scopes were allowed then. Also, there could be many other factors that contributed to the jump to 39.3% success rate in 2016 but we don’t have all of that info available.

If nothing else the data actually shows scopes have very little impact on the AVERAGE success rate.

Yes there is data.
Everyone needs to look in the mirror.

We all know how scopes have changed hunter’s success especially on rifles and there is know denying it.

Putting scopes on muzzleloaders allowed two key things.
#1Being able to harvest in low light.
#2 Being more accurate at all ranges

So let’s argue about removing them off of muzzleloader that makes perfect sense.

SLAM has been very clear about that right from the start.
It’s not going to grow our herds. But there is a possibility to improve our quality.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
710
I've sat on habitat stamp money allocation committees for projects that benefit wildlife. Have you? I sure as hell haven't pushed for any faux agendas pretending the removal of a scope will benefit them.
Yes you have pushed for faux agenda items.
#1Trail cameras
#2 Scopes on muzzleloader
#3 technology
You know how they can help so don’t give me that BS
 

Deerlove

Long Time Member
Messages
5,592
Yes there is data.
Everyone needs to look in the mirror.

We all know how scopes have changed hunter’s success especially on rifles and there is know denying it.

Putting scopes on muzzleloaders allowed two key things.
#1Being able to harvest in low light.
#2 Being more accurate at all ranges

So let’s argue about removing them off of muzzleloader that makes perfect sense.

SLAM has been very clear about that right from the start.
It’s not going to grow our herds. But there is a possibility to improve our quality.
Quality to be shot up by the riflehunters?
 

Themaddness

Member
Messages
21
Start shoveling fellas..the only way I see improvement for big game hunting is to improve the habitats, limit tech, shorten seasons. Predator control, feral horse control. Highway high fencing, wildlife crossings. Good luck to us all to achieve this.

Tech is not going away.
Seasons are not changing
There is not one silver bullet to fix this.

Anyone else see the BYU study on fawn and calf mortality on the bookcliff unit?
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
Messages
2,690
You want to save the herd and improve quality cut the "Rifle Tags". Better yet change the rifle season to mid October.

Actually, if we wanted to save herds and improve quality, we’d kill more bulls. The most effective way to kill a bull elk is with a rifle. So cutting rifle tags is exactly opposite of what should be done if we are talking about the health of herds and producing more elk.

But very few people, I repeat- VERY few people actual care about the health of the herds. Everyone has an agenda and they push for what fits that agenda, too often attempting to weakly cloak the agenda in some misguided biological statement.

At least Troy with SFW was honest in why he wants to move the LE elk rifle hunt out of the rut: We can grow more 400” bulls to sell tags for at auction if we do that. I don’t agree with him that we should do that, but I can at least respect the transparency.
 

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