Powder choice

Thomas11

Active Member
Messages
355
New to muzzleloaders so I would like to prelude this by saying I'm primarily concerned with ease of use and keeping it simple. Of course accuracy is a concern but Im not familiar with muzzleloaders and don't want to make a mistake in the heat of the moment. So I'm tryin to decide between blackhorn 209 vs pellets. If I go w pellets which are considered the best? Thanks guys!
 
Get a muzzleloader that is capable if consistent ignition of BH209, a jug of BH209, some Win 209, Fed 209A, or CCI 209M primers, and a good sabot and you are set. Once you have your hunting load decided you can premeasure the powder and have it ready to go in vials. These are speedloaders for muzzleloaders. I have used black powder, Pyrodex (loose and pellets), Triple 7 (loose and pellets), White Hots, and BH209. None of the others compare to BH209. Just in ease of accuracy, velocity, and consistency, nothing compares to BH209. I have shot as many as 50 shots through the bore without cleaning and it shot as well on shot 50 as it did on shot number 1.
 
If those are your choices 110% go with the bh209 pellets are either perfect or suck doesn't seem like there's any in between and you can't adjust your load plus a jug of powder will last if not used quickly not so much with pellets.
 
So r the pellets or BH 209 more resistant to weather? I understand that changes in temp, wet weather, etc can effect the charge igniting. But is one better than the other given these conditions?
 
Either will be done if wet but the pellets will degrade over time where the powder won't due to sucking moisture out of the air.
 
So I think I'm gonna try pellets first due to the simplicity. I know there will be more fouling than blackhorn and possibly less accuracy. But if Im not satisfied with the accuracy with pellets I can always switch to blackhorn. My question is blackhorn recommends the hotter cci 209 or federal primer. Can I use these primers with pellets or do I need a less hot primer like the W777 primer? I would rather buy the cci 209 primer that way if I switch to blackhorn I can use the same primer. Also which pellets would be recommended pyrodex,white hots or Hodgon 777 pellets? I'll be elk hunting and also is 2 or 3 pellets recommended? Thanks!
 
What Bambi said up on top. Why mess with pellets. Pellets are more corrosive and have to swab @least every other #####. As where 209 Blackhorn I've been able to shoot as much as 40-50 shits without swabbing and cleaning is a breeze. Just my 2 cents. As far as accuracy blackhorn cant be beat
 
Tell us what gun you will be using. That makes a BIG difference. Some guns will not shoot BH 209

You would ONLY want to use 777 primers if you use 777 powder or pellets. You want more power if you use other powders, especially BH. 777 primers will not light 777

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>Tell us what gun you will
>be using. That makes
>a BIG difference. Some
>guns will not shoot BH
>209
>
>You would ONLY want to use
>777 primers if you use
>777 powder or pellets. You
>want more power if you
>use other powders, especially BH.
> 777 primers will not
>light 777
>
>txhunter58
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)
So I'm getting the T/C impact, Barnes spitfire 300 grain sabots and pt gold scorpion crushed rib sabots 300 grain and I think pyrodex pellets shooting either 2 or 3 pellets. Guess I can play with both and see if there are any noticeable differences in accuracy. I think I've decided on W209 primer. It seems to be a middle of the road hot primer. I understand the hotter primers cause crud rings but I will clean every shot as needed in target or sighting in so I don't see this as a huge issue. My reasoning for choosing the W209 primer and pyrodex pellets over 777 pellets and primer is I read the pyrodex pellets are much easier to ignite and u have less of a chance in the field with rain, cold weather etc of your charge not going off? My main concern is to have the best chance for ignition and cut down on misfires etc. Like I said this is totally new to me so I'm kinda walking on the keep it simple attitude. If I can't the accuracy I need I can always get some Blackhorn 209 and try it. BTW, I'll be elk hunting in Utah in nebo unit for this! So I'm pretty excited to have a tag! I appreciate any suggestions. Thanks!
 
Sounds like you have been given many suggestions that you aren't listening to.

Good luck with your hunt, and hopefully your muzzy does well with the pellets.

}}-SLIVER-->
 
FYI, your gun is basically an economy verson Omega, so it should shoot BH 209 without modification. From what I hear, they are a pretty good gun.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Also, I would NOT personally use 3 50gr pellets. Just because your gun will shoot it doesn't mean you really want to. 150 gr in my hands hasn't been as accurate and I flinch because it packs a wallop! Some people do use 150 gr loads and do OK, but unless your gun shoots well at one of those 2 loads you are stuck. You could then try 2-777 magnum pellets which would be equivalent to 120 gr. 120 gr is my personl max.

If you are lucky and your gun shoots well with pellets, then you are set. But if not, then with powder, you can change the load to anything by 5 gr increments and are more likely to find the sweet spot of your gun

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>Sounds like you have been given
>many suggestions that you aren't
>listening to.
>
>Good luck with your hunt, and
>hopefully your muzzy does well
>with the pellets.
>
>}}-SLIVER-->


No I appreciatte all the advice. I'm just asking questions because I'm new to the muzzy thing. Sorry if I sound stupid. Now archery or centerfire I'm pretty knowledgable. I'm just trying to keep everything simple and eliminate any chances for errors due to my part. So I figured pellets may be easier for a beginner but it does seem everyone loves the blackhorn powder.
 
>Also, I would NOT personally use
>3 50gr pellets. Just
>because your gun will shoot
>it doesn't mean you really
>want to. 150 gr in
>my hands hasn't been as
>accurate and I flinch because
>it packs a wallop!
>Some people do use 150
>gr loads and do OK,
>but unless your gun shoots
>well at one of those
>2 loads you are stuck.
> You could then try
>2-777 magnum pellets which would
>be equivalent to 120 gr.
> 120 gr is my
>personl max.
>
>If you are lucky and your
>gun shoots well with pellets,
>then you are set. But
>if not, then with powder,
>you can change the load
>to anything by 5 gr
>increments and are more likely
>to find the sweet spot
>of your gun
>
>txhunter58
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)

That makes sense. The only reason I haven't explored the magnum pellets or triple 777 pellets is I understand they can be harder to inginite. Same for blackhorn. So my thinking is the pyrodex pellets may ignite better in foul weather conditions? Idk really? Maybe I'm over thinking it. I just want to eliminate all my errors that I can. Also I don't plan on shooting an elk over 150-200 yards. So would 2 pellets or 100 grains be more than adequate at that range for effectively taking an elk?
 
Muzzleloading is a different animal. Research the guns out for the best shooters and what fits you. Then buddy, when it comes to ML'ing it is all trial and error. 209 general is the best for those guns who shoot the shotgun type primer, but I have a friend who shoots pellets for powder and it groups every bit as good as the 209 and he claims pellets are easier to handle while hunting.
 
"40-50 shits without swabbing"

LOL

Elkextreme, that's a lot of sh!ts between swabs.

Just a heads up my brother got really good results with 150 grains of white hot pellets. I was surprised he was getting about a 2.5" group at 200 yards shooting barnes sabots.
 
> "40-50 shits without swabbing"
>
>LOL
>
>Elkextreme, that's a lot of sh!ts
>between swabs.
>
>Just a heads up my brother
>got really good results with
>150 grains of white hot
>pellets. I was surprised
>he was getting about a
>2.5" group at 200 yards
>shooting barnes sabots.


Thanks!
 
Someone smarter than me on muzzleloading said you can take any north American game except the big bears with 100 gr of powder and a 300 gr bullet. So yes, 100 gr is plenty to kill an elk out to 150 yards.

At 200, not sure, but I know a guy that shoot 90 gr of pyrodex P powder and a 460 gr bullet and killed an elk at close to 300 yards

Here is an interesting thread that talks about that: http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID14/2684.html

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
So here's my report back from initial shooting. 2 pyrodex pellets with Barnes 300 gr spitfire tmz sabots were amazingly accurate. 4 shots at 100 yards measured 1" or less group. I sighted it in to be 2 inches high at 100 yards. At 200 yards, I only shot it twice but both shots were touching. They measured 15 inches low. So while accuracy was excellent, would this setup have enough killing power to effectively take an elk at 200 yards? Appreciate any thoughts! I did not shoot three pellets yet. I also cleaned every shot. Haven't experimented w not cleaning b/t shots.
 
I just shot the Barnes Spitfire MZ for the first time today and they are definitely tighter and harder to push down the barrel. Barnes said it is necessary to use the bullet guide to load them has anyone found that to be necessary?
 
If those are 300 gr copper bullets, then I would say yes, they have enough power to kill a bull at 200 yards. As long as they open up at 200 yards you should be good. Not sure about then opening up at that distance

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>If those are 300 gr copper
>bullets, then I would say
>yes, they have enough power
>to kill a bull at
>200 yards. As long
>as they open up at
>200 yards you should be
>good. Not sure about
>then opening up at that
>distance
>
>txhunter58
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)


They Are copper bullets. They are actually 290 grains.
 
I killed my deer last year with 100 grains of whitehot powder pushing a 250 grain bullet. The shot was 248 yards. The buck died quickly. I was skeptical at first, but after using the pellets, I am quite impressed at the accuracy. The bullet made a clean pass through.
 
>I killed my deer last year
>with 100 grains of whitehot
>powder pushing a 250 grain
>bullet. The shot was 248
>yards. The buck died quickly.
>I was skeptical at first,
>but after using the pellets,
>I am quite impressed at
>the accuracy. The bullet made
>a clean pass through.


I haven't done extensive shooting but my initial shooting with the pellets were extremely accurate. As accurate as my center fire. basically all 4 shots were touching at 100 yards. Same group at 200 but I only shot twice. I will shoot some more this weekend. I'll prolly try 3 pellets and just see how they group for comparison. I will say they are dirty and it requires a lot of cleaning! So I can def see why ppl like the blackhorn
 
I suspect you are fine with that bullet and 100 gr powder. I would do some research to see if the bullet will open at 200 yards at that velocity. If so, you are definitely good to go. For me, I would not be able to use a 150 gr powder dose no matter how good the accuracy. At that recoil, I would flinch and that would make me NOT accurate. I will PM you with a couple of other websites to get data from

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>You guys are out of my
>caliber of shooters. I'd
>need a gun vise to
>shoot that accurate. :)


Honestly I can hold a gun steadier with sandbags. And I feel a vise locks a gun in to tight and doesn't allow it move freely after the shot and therefore possibly could effect accuracy
 
I guess you are right with the load you've got. Don't change a thing. Right now your gun is shooting better than 99 out of 100 experienced Muzzleloaders.
 
It has been suggested that you try 2 triple 7 magnum pellets which would be equal to 120 gr of powder. Should be plenty of energy if it is still accurate, and IMO, tripe 7 is easier to clean up than pyrodex

In my opinion, there is never a need for 150 gr.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>It has been suggested that you
>try 2 triple 7 magnum
>pellets which would be equal
>to 120 gr of powder.
> Should be plenty of
>energy if it is still
>accurate, and IMO, tripe 7
>is easier to clean up
>than pyrodex
>
>In my opinion, there is never
>a need for 150 gr.
>
>
>txhunter58
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)

Hey thanks! I've considered getting some of those and trying. The only reason I didn't try the 777 pellets is I understand they are harder to ignite. So my thinking was in foul weather or colder temps I may get a misfire possibly but I don't really know. I'm using standard win209 primer. Also this was the first time I've really shot the gun, so who knows those groups may not stay that consistent. Time will tell. I plan on shooting all summer and getting very familar w the gun and possibly diff loads. I really appreciate all your help!
 
You should double check that info. I have never used pellets, so don't know, but with 777 powder, it is easy to ignite and you want to use reduced power 209 primers to ignite, not more powerful

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Doing a little research, doesn't sound like the 777 are harder to ignite, but when opened for awhile, they tend to absorb water, which makes them harder to ignite?? Just taking the word of someone else on that. I have never had a problem with the loose powder.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-17 AT 08:58PM (MST)[p]All in all, I would say you are having beginners luck. Take a look at this:

https://www.barnesbullets.com/muzzleloaders/spit-fire-tmz/

Says they will expand at 1050 fps. And 100 gr of Pyrodex should give you 1100-1200 fps at 200 yards.

Here is another good article on these bullets:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/barnes_muzzleloading_bullet_guide.htm

If that load keeps shooting that accurately, I wouldn't change a thing.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-17
>AT 08:58?PM (MST)

>
>All in all, I would say
>you are having beginners luck.
> Take a look at
>this:
>
>https://www.barnesbullets.com/muzzleloaders/spit-fire-tmz/
>
>Says they will expand at 1050
>fps. And 100 gr of
>Pyrodex should give you 1100-1200
>fps at 200 yards.
>
>Here is another good article on
>these bullets:
>
>http://www.chuckhawks.com/barnes_muzzleloading_bullet_guide.htm
>
>If that load keeps shooting that
>accurately, I wouldn't change a
>thing.
>
>txhunter58
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)

Thanks! I'm gonna keep shooting and make sure that I keep getting the same accuracy outta this combination. Like I said, that was one group and next time results may be diff. Time and more shooting will tell but I really appreciatte all the feedback
 
Two 7D, I guess I can't make people believe what I posted, but @ least I know it's true cause I counted every shot. I know that it sounds far fetched I couldn't believe it myself. Thats one of my few reason I made my switch from pellets to buckhorn 209
 
1" groups at 100's, if you can repeat that regularly, don't change nothing!!!

As for BH209, IMO it ignites quicker thus giving more accuracy since there is less chance of moving the barrel from trigger pull to bullet leaving muzzle.

I've shot approximately 300 rounds outta my gun, never a mis-fire. Most of that was in controlled conditions at the range but I did carry it loaded for 7 days on a Nevada elk hunt, including snow. Shot it one night in camp cause I was worried, reloaded and carried it another 4 days before I killed my bull.

Like I said, never a mis-fire
 
>Two 7D, I guess I can't
>make people believe what I
>posted, but @ least I
>know it's true cause I
>counted every shot. I know
>that it sounds far fetched
>I couldn't believe it myself.
>Thats one of my few
>reason I made my
>switch from pellets to buckhorn
>209

I think he's just giving you a bad time about a funny typo in your first post. Read it again and you'll have a good laugh.
 
Did some more shooting. 100 yards -3shots measured 1.5". 150 yds-3 shots measured 3". I was shooting 4 inches high at 100, at 150 I was still shooting 3-4 inches high? I woulda thought it would have dropped some, but all three shots were consistent and 3-4 inches same as 100 yards. BTW I tried 3 pellets and didn't touch the target at 100 yds, lots of recoil as well. so I'm def sticking w 2 pellets unless I try the Blackhorn loose powder
 
I never liked 150 grain loads myself. I shot 100 grains of granular 777 for years with excellent results. I now shoot 110 grains of granular 777. Never shot blackhorn 209 but sounds like it gets a lot of positive reviews for clean burning and high energy.
 
>Did some more shooting. 100 yards
>-3shots measured 1.5". 150 yds-3
>shots measured 3". I was
>shooting 4 inches high at
>100, at 150 I was
>still shooting 3-4 inches high?
>I woulda thought it would
>have dropped some, but all
>three shots were consistent and
>3-4 inches same as 100
>yards. BTW I tried 3
>pellets and didn't touch the
>target at 100 yds, lots
>of recoil as well. so
>I'm def sticking w 2
>pellets unless I try the
>Blackhorn loose powder

You want some Real Inaccuracy?

Load that F'R Up with 4 Pellets!

Throw that TRASH away & Experiment with 85-110 Grains by Volume of BH 209!










[Font][Font color = "blue"]Ah yes we have insider trading and computer dating but I never goin for that!
Ain't no machine pickin out my Queen cause it may not have all the facts!
I've got my own taste and my own ways I'd rather not talk about
and my private life is my private life and they ain't gonna find out!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
With MLoaders, if you're on at 100 yards, you are usually 8" to 12" low at 150 yards. I haven't seen it much different than that after shooting ML'ers for 40 years and that includes my inline. I have never been able to get better than a 2" group at 100 yards, but then again I guess I'm not the best shot in the world (unless I shoot two shots) get lucky and go home. :)
 
>With MLoaders, if you're on at
>100 yards, you are usually
>8" to 12" low at
>150 yards. I haven't
>seen it much different than
>that after shooting ML'ers for
>40 years and that includes
>my inline. I have never
>been able to get better
>than a 2" group at
>100 yards, but then again
>I guess I'm not the
>best shot in the world
>(unless I shoot two shots)
>get lucky and go home.
>:)
Well that's what I thought as well concerning the drop. I'm gonna shoot some more and see what happens! Idk? I've only shot a couple shooting sessions. About 30 rounds. I think I haven't shot enough to get a good consistent pattern
 
BH 209 3x9 scope with BDC lines 100yd to 300 yds lines in it
You wouldn't be sorry.
My groups at 300 yard are best I have ever shot.
Cleanup is just amazing compare to other powder.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom