Proposed Lifetime License Changes

ridgetops

Very Active Member
Messages
2,700
With the rapidly increasing point creep problems on some of our deer hunting sub-units. I propose a change in the way the lifetime license holders receive their general deer tags.

- If deer season within a specific unit takes five or more preference points to draw. That season within the specific unit would then be subject to limitations.

1) No more than 5% of the total tags for that season would go to a lifetime license tag holder.

2) The dedicated hunter tags would drop from 15% to 10% for these hard to draw units.

3) No more than 5% would go to the youth only permits on these units.

That would leave 80% going to the general public. I believe this would help towards the point creep issue.

The same limitations would apply to a brand new unit. Ex. would be a LE unit that has changed to a general season unit( like the thousand lakes unit).

OR

A unit that receives greater than a 20% permit cut for that year.



To accomplish this, the LL holders would apply through the draw. They would draw first and have up to five choices to pick from.

If they choose only one hard to draw unit and didn’t get drawn, then they would qualify to get a leftover tag of their choosing.

Does this make sense?

Could something like this work?
 
Lifetime license holders do apply through the draw, they just have really good odds ? . You really do need to find some new windmills to tilt because you still won't draw schitt. Maybe you can get on the wildlife board since you've got all these great ideas. Better yet try fishing or golf.
 
And....who in the hell are you ? This is the first thing I thought when I saw this post! Even before I saw Bessy's post. So I just let it fly.
 
First off I dont have a life time
Licences but them that do played for it and you cant change that so let it go
And I'm am tired of people
Trying to take away from the youth like extending the bow into the youth or cutting back
There percent in a draw grown men taking away from the youth bull $#it
 
Yep this is kind of like my grand daughters baseball game I went to the other day. Everyone gets to hit when team one is done. The other comes into the dug out and they all get to hit the ball and run around the bases. There are no outs. They don't keep score. Everyone gets a turn. Everyone gets treats at the end of each game. They all get trophy's when the season is over and everyone feels good ! No winners and no losers !
 
Ridge, why are you favoring DH over LL? Just curious. It’s your proposal, so you can propose anything you’d like. Just curious why you chose to do it that way?

As I stated elsewhere, if someone can show that LL is the cause for these 5+ point backlogs on units, I’m not opposed to the concept contained herein. But there is an “if/then” there, and the “if” hasn’t been shown yet. And if it ever is, I’d want to see some tweaks, but again, wouldn’t adamantly oppose the concept.
 
Probably because he's a DH and still butthurt that he didn't buy a LL when he had the chance.

Ridge has done okay for himself in his circumstances. I’m legitimately interested to know his thinking on that, and won’t assume any nefarious intent on his part.
 
I really do like Ridge. However, this is like being upset that someone bought into Netflix stock when it was a dollar, and you didn't when you had the chance. Now you are upset and want to go back in time and buy stock but you can't. So then you want to take it away from the people who bought it back then. Ridge surely you can see the error in your thinking? I wish I would have bought Netflix stock, but I puckered up. I didn't know if it would be worth it. Congrats to all those who did, good call on their part. The last thing I would want or expect is for them to give up some of their stock or alter the amount they got. They will never make changes to the lifetime license if they have any backbone at all.
 
I really do like Ridge. However, this is like being upset that someone bought into Netflix stock when it was a dollar, and you didn't when you had the chance. Now you are upset and want to go back in time and buy stock but you can't. So then you want to take it away from the people who bought it back then. Ridge surely you can see the error in your thinking? I wish I would have bought Netflix stock, but I puckered up. I didn't know if it would be worth it. Congrats to all those who did, good call on their part. The last thing I would want or expect is for them to give up some of their stock or alter the amount they got. They will never make changes to the lifetime license if they have any backbone at all.
This isn't about me or wanting to take away the lifetime license. It's about evening the playing field for "everyone" involved in trying to get a deer tag each year. Your analogy doesn't work here. It would apply if the DWR told the LL holder they could sell their tag in the future for any price they want, then changed their mind and they couldn't.
Nowhere did the DWR say that the LL tag holder could receive any tag of their choice each year no matter how many are available to the general public.
Simply, there needs to be some "checks" put in place to prevent LL tag holders from overloading or hot spotting certain sub-units. I'll throw out some numbers when I have more time. Which I'm sure it will surprise you. I know it did me.
 
Ridge has done okay for himself in his circumstances. I’m legitimately interested to know his thinking on that, and won’t assume any nefarious intent on his part.
The way I was looking at it, there are a certain percentage of LL involved in the DH program every year. I'm sure at least 2 or 3 percent. Which would be lowering the actually 10% to the general public that wants a DH tag. So if you had a max of 5% to LL and max 10% to DH. With the LL tag holder taking away some of that 10% in the DH pool. Then it would be close to the same numbers for LL and the general tag holder receiving either a LL tag or a DH tag. Hope that makes some sense.
This would only apply to the high demand units that take 5+ years to draw. The units that see a tag reduction, already are loosing the DH tags for that year. In many cases there won't be any DH tags available in the draw. Just like last year.
Also, the LL tag holders would be only competing against themselves for those 5% tags. They would probably get their 1st choice tag every other year or at worse every third, once they gained a preference point or two for those high demand units. They would probably always get their second or third choice tag every year.
 
This isn't about me or wanting to take away the lifetime license. It's about evening the playing field for "everyone" involved in trying to get a deer tag each year. Your analogy doesn't work here. It would apply if the DWR told the LL holder they could sell their tag in the future for any price they want, then changed their mind and they couldn't.
Nowhere did the DWR say that the LL tag holder could receive any tag of their choice each year no matter how many are available to the general public.
Simply, there needs to be some "checks" put in place to prevent LL tag holders from overloading or hot spotting certain sub-units. I'll throw out some numbers when I have more time. Which I'm sure it will surprise you. I know it did me.
I looked it up this is what it says.

(2)(a) Each year, a lifetime licensee who is eligible to hunt big game may receive without charge, a permit for the unit of their choice for one of the following general deer hunts:(i) archery buck deer;(ii) any weapon buck deer; or(iii) muzzleloader buck deer.

So actually it did say that.
 
. What I understand is it said they have an opportunity to receive a tag. Not guaranteed a tag of their choosing.
(2)(a) Each year, a lifetime licensee who is eligible to hunt big game may receive without charge, a permit for the unit of their choice for one of the following general deer hunts:(i) archery buck deer;(ii) any weapon buck deer; or(iii) muzzleloader buck deer.

It clearly states they get to choose their unit and weapon.
This effectively ends any argument you could possibly have.
 
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(2)(a) Each year, a lifetime licensee who is eligible to hunt big game may receive without charge, a permit for the unit of their choice for one of the following general deer hunts:(i) archery buck deer;(ii) any weapon buck deer; or(iii) muzzleloader buck deer.

It clearly states they get to choose their unit and weapon.
This effectively ends any argument you could possibly have.
That was a change from the original wording. Things can and most likely will change in the future.
 
I looked it up this is what it says.

(2)(a) Each year, a lifetime licensee who is eligible to hunt big game May receive without charge, a permit for the unit of their choice for one of the following General deer hunts:(i) archery buck deer;(ii) any weapon buck deer; or(iii) muzzleloader buck deer.

So actually it did say that.
May is not the same as Shall.

May: a choice to act or not, or a promise of a possibility, as distinguished from "shall," which makes it imperative.

There is no guarantee in May.

General tags should not be in areas that you have to apply, and possibly have 5 points, to get a tag

I would also propose that Lifetime licenses holders are not allowed to use their permits to mentor youth. It's certainly not fair for the grandkid of a LL holder to hunt every year. Or, they can mentor every 5 years or whatever the maximum amount of points it takes to draw the top hunts.
 
Everyone keeps throwing out words like “fair” and “even playing field.”

I was 13 years old when I bought my LL. When I bought my own LL. Nobody bought it for me. I used money I earned from a paper route I peddled every day from 8 years old to that time I bought the LL while my friends were off playing and having fun.

I get that people that came after feel they got the raw end of the deal. There are lots of things I didn’t get to do that prior generations did as well. That is not unfair, that is called life. I get it, I have some sympathy there, but it isn’t unfair.

What I have zero sympathy for is those that simply decided to not buy one and complain 30 years later. I’ve heard “I couldn’t afford it,” but I figured out how to peddle newspapers around the hood with paper carrying bags wrapped around my bike handle bars starting at 8 years old and bought a LL with my own money before I could even deer hunt.

I also don’t favor tag cuts either. That comment was total crap. Someone has a serious case of the butt hurts and needs to cowboy up.
 
May is not the same as Shall.

May: a choice to act or not, or a promise of a possibility, as distinguished from "shall," which makes it imperative.

There is no guarantee in May.

General tags should not be in areas that you have to apply, and possibly have 5 points, to get a tag

I would also propose that Lifetime licenses holders are not allowed to use their permits to mentor youth. It's certainly not fair for the grandkid of a LL holder to hunt every year. Or, they can mentor every 5 years or whatever the maximum amount of points it takes to draw the top hunts.
The word may is in there because you can turn down the tag if you want. Nothing is going to change. This problem will fix itself as the years go on. It's not point creep that will get worse and worse and worse. This is going nowhere fast.
 
May is not the same as Shall.

May: a choice to act or not, or a promise of a possibility, as distinguished from "shall," which makes it imperative.

There is no guarantee in May.
Lol. But it looks like there is in several other months in the Fall when these LL holders can select the tag of their choice.


General tags should not be in areas that you have to apply, and possibly have 5 points, to get a tag

I would also propose that Lifetime licenses holders are not allowed to use their permits to mentor youth. It's certainly not fair for the grandkid of a LL holder to hunt every year. Or, they can mentor every 5 years or whatever the maximum amount of points it takes to draw the top hunts.
 
The word may is in there because you can turn down the tag if you want. Nothing is going to change. This problem will fix itself as the years go on. It's not point creep that will get worse and worse and worse. This is going nowhere fast.
It will take decades to "fix itself". Here's some numbers for ya. Last year 19% of the Pine Valley late rifle went to LL . With the tag cuts this year, it will be closer to 20%.
Panguich Lake muzzy last year had 13% o going to LL. With this years massive tag cuts on that unit. LL could take up around 27% on that muzzy season.
Boulder unit will be seeing big cuts this year. Last year on the Boulder, rifle LL hunters had 13% but this year it will be closer to 20%. The Boulder LL muzzy hunters took 23% of the tags last year. This year we could be looking at around 37%. This is why point creep is going crazy on some of these units but if most people are fine with these numbers, so be it. I personally think they are a little excessive.
 
The easiest way to screw LL holders would be to abolish "General" tags which has already happened in practice. Pretty hard to make the argument that there is a difference when several LE tags take less points to draw.

I don't have a dog in the fight and I'm not advocating making any changes. I'm just saying that LL holders took a risk with their money just like the Netflix analogy that was mentioned. If Netflix goes under, the stock is worthless. If there are no longer "General" deer tags, that benefit of the LL is worthless. You can't claim rights to a product that doesn't exist.--------SS
 
Ya Know!

I Was Teasing Niller about some of His Camo on a Thread Once!

I Can Only Imagine Taking/Changing His Lifetime PISSCUTTER Tag!

You'll Have Your Hands Full Ridge!
 
The easiest way to screw LL holders would be to abolish "General" tags which has already happened in practice. Pretty hard to make the argument that there is a difference when several LE tags take less points to draw.

I don't have a dog in the fight and I'm not advocating making any changes. I'm just saying that LL holders took a risk with their money just like the Netflix analogy that was mentioned. If Netflix goes under, the stock is worthless. If there are no longer "General" deer tags, that benefit of the LL is worthless. You can't claim rights to a product that doesn't exist.--------SS

Sorry, but this is crap. I keep hearing people say this, yet you aren’t paying LE permit fees and there is no mandatory 5 year wait period. Institute that statewide for every tag on every unit, and you now have really got read of general season permits. Seems like it’s a great way to screw everyone over in the quest to screw over LL holders. General season does not mean you get a tag every year. Plenty of people that want to hunt elk in Utah every year can’t either. This argument falls on its face so badly.

I swear, there are hunters who will not be satisfied until every hunting opportunity is gone. They’ll finally be happy when nobody gets to hunt. It’s pretty baffling!
 
Easy Niller. Like I said, I aint out to get you and couldn't really care less if a lifetime license holder killed the last deer in Utah. I'm just saying that your "deal" is only as strong as the word "general".

You can get mad and get worked up all you want but it's a fact. If there are no general tags, then what? I hope it never comes to that and that you get your yearly tag for the rest of your life. I also hope I get the Social Security that I paid for my whole life too but I'm not delusional enough to realize that when the resource is gone that I might not see a penny. --------SS
 
Open it up so any one can by a LL. It is crap that someone that wasn't alive doesn't have the same opportunity. Arizona and Idaho still offer LL - although different. Utah should offer it and all general tags will go to LL, but that is at least fair. The fact that someone bought the tag before 20% of the hunters were even born and gets that benefit indefinitely is WRONG. Someone needs to file a lawsuit on discrimination due to AGE.
 
Open it up so any one can by a LL. It is crap that someone that wasn't alive doesn't have the same opportunity. Arizona and Idaho still offer LL - although different. Utah should offer it and all general tags will go to LL, but that is at least fair. The fact that someone bought the tag before 20% of the hunters were even born and gets that benefit indefinitely is WRONG. Someone needs to file a lawsuit on discrimination due to AGE.
I was not alive when you could go out on the prairie and shoot dozens of Buffalo without a tag. It's not that it's unfair just a little unfortunate, and that's the way it goes. I wasn't alive either when you could ride your horse for an entire day and all the land you covered was yours just unfortunate, but life isn't fair.
 
The only viable option is to resume true statewide general hunts giving every eligible hunter their tag of choice, just like LLs. They can impose other restrictions on weapons, season length, hunting hours, etc to maintain buck doe ratios as needed.
 
The only viable option is to resume true statewide general hunts giving every eligible hunter their tag of choice, just like LLs. They can impose other restrictions on weapons, season length, hunting hours, etc to maintain buck doe ratios as needed.
NR here so no dog in the hunt, but I do find it funny there are a few guys really into this movement to take these tags and modify them from their original intent.
If there were originally 3000 LL tags, how many of those folks are still alive or even still hunt? Should be easy for the State to find that stat.
I bet there is alot less than people think and zero reason to break the deal the State made with those folks.
 
The only viable option is to resume true statewide general hunts giving every eligible hunter their tag of choice, just like LLs. They can impose other restrictions on weapons, season length, hunting hours, etc to maintain buck doe ratios as needed.
Most other groups are already limited.
Example:
DH tags are capped at 15% per unit.
Rifle hunters are capped at 60%
Muzzy hunters capped at 20%
Archery is capped at 20%
Even youth hunters are reserved 20%
Nobody is allowed 100% of the tags except LL hunters.
So why not cap each sub-unit for LL tags at 5-10%?
 
Easy Niller. Like I said, I aint out to get you and couldn't really care less if a lifetime license holder killed the last deer in Utah. I'm just saying that your "deal" is only as strong as the word "general".

You can get mad and get worked up all you want but it's a fact. If there are no general tags, then what? I hope it never comes to that and that you get your yearly tag for the rest of your life. I also hope I get the Social Security that I paid for my whole life too but I'm not delusional enough to realize that when the resource is gone that I might not see a penny. --------SS

I’m neither mad nor worked up. You used the word “screw over,” so I responded with your verbiage. And this whole notion of no longer having “general season” permits is crap, because it is. I called a spade a spade, nothing more. If people really want to push for all limited entry to stick it to the LL holders, be my guest. But that change is pretty dramatic. And like I said, who will they go after to stop from hunting next?

Some hunters will not be satisfied until the animals can only be looked at and not hunted. And even then they’ll probably start a draw system the keeps us from looking at them, and in 30 years try to stop us from doing that too. You’d think this was a PETA forum with how badly some want to prevent others from hunting.
 
NR here so no dog in the hunt, but I do find it funny there are a few guys really into this movement to take these tags and modify them from their original intent.
If there were originally 3000 LL tags, how many of those folks are still alive or even still hunt? Should be easy for the State to find that stat.
I bet there is alot less than people think and zero reason to break the deal the State made with those folks.
Just to be clear, I agree that the state can honor the LL deal, just as there is zero reason they can‘t give everyone an equal opportunity to hunt.
 
I’m neither mad nor worked up. You used the word “screw over,” so I responded with your verbiage. And this whole notion of no longer having “general season” permits is crap, because it is. I called a spade a spade, nothing more. If people really want to push for all limited entry to stick it to the LL holders, be my guest. But that change is pretty dramatic. And like I said, who will they go after to stop from hunting next?

Some hunters will not be satisfied until the animals can only be looked at and not hunted. And even then they’ll probably start a draw system the keeps us from looking at them, and in 30 years try to stop us from doing that too. You’d think this was a PETA forum with how badly some want to prevent others from hunting.
Wow Vanilla, that's a little dramatic. What's your thoughts on my post #44 remarks?
 
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This whole thing sounds a lot like the NR tag quotas. R want more to themselves (take away opportunities from NR), After they spent 20 plus years buying licenses and points that help support Wildlife in that state.
 
Wow Vanilla, that's a little dramatic. What's your thoughts on my post #44 remarks?

I don’t think it’s dramatic at all to say there are some amongst us that will not be happy until only they get to hunt exactly like they want to, and nobody else gets to. I think it’s absolutely clear there are people that are that way on this forum, so no, not dramatic at all. Cut, cut, cut- restrict, restrict, restrict. Anti-hunters would read these threads with joy in their hearts. We are doing their work for them.

I think your comparing apples to watermelons in your analogy in post #44. And I’ll reiterate, I’d you want more animals to hunt, stop managing people and start managing animals. We can continue doing the same things worrying only about people and hope for different results.
 
I don’t think it’s dramatic at all to say there are some amongst us that will not be happy until only they get to hunt exactly like they want to, and nobody else gets to. I think it’s absolutely clear there are people that are that way on this forum, so no, not dramatic at all. Cut, cut, cut- restrict, restrict, restrict. Anti-hunters would read these threads with joy in their hearts. We are doing their work for them.

I think your comparing apples to watermelons in your analogy in post #44. And I’ll reiterate, I’d you want more animals to hunt, stop managing people and start managing animals. We can continue doing the same things worrying only about people and hope for different results.
What analogy are you taking about? I was just stating facts. Facts are LL tag holders are taking more than 15 percent of the tags on several units and some will be over 20 percent this year. Look at the thousand lakes. It's been almost ten years and the LL tag holders still control over 40 percent of that unit's tags but you LL tag holders don't want to sacrifice a single thing. I find that very disappointing.
 
So Ridge?

Should I Include Lifetimers in HELL-RIGHT?

Hey Niller?

Should I NOT Include Lifetimers in HELL-RIGHT?
I think you and everyone else knows that this isn't about growing more deer or saving bigger bucks for next year. So why do you keep trying to muddy the water with things that are off topic.
I've asked a simple question that everyone keeps avoiding.
Why is it OK that the LL tag holders are the only group out there that has no limitations on how many tags they get per unit. It's possible they could take over 50% of the tags if we keep seeing tag cuts or 100% if a LE goes to a general season.
You really are ok with that?
 
I think you and everyone else knows that this isn't about growing more deer or saving bigger bucks for next year. So why do you keep trying to muddy the water with things that are off topic.
I've asked a simple question that everyone keeps avoiding.
Why is it OK that the LL tag holders are the only group out there that has no limitations on how many tags they get per unit. It's possible they could take over 50% of the tags if we keep seeing tag cuts or 100% if a LE goes to a general season.
You really are ok with that?
How many LL tags are used each year?
 
They Bought & Own a Lifetime Deer License!

They Will Get a Deer Tag for the Rest of their Lives!

A Tag for one of the General Deer Units!

A General Tag of Their Choice!

Is it all the Tough to Figure Out?

If You were in Possession of a Life Time License?

Would Have You Ever Started This Thread?



I think you and everyone else knows that this isn't about growing more deer or saving bigger bucks for next year. So why do you keep trying to muddy the water with things that are off topic.
I've asked a simple question that everyone keeps avoiding.
Why is it OK that the LL tag holders are the only group out there that has no limitations on how many tags they get per unit. It's possible they could take over 50% of the tags if we keep seeing tag cuts or 100% if a LE goes to a general season.
You really are ok with that?
 
They Bought & Own a Lifetime Deer License!

They Will Get a Deer Tag for the Rest of their Lives!

A Tag for one of the General Deer Units!

A General Tag of Their Choice!

Is it all the Tough to Figure Out?

If You were in Possession of a Life Time License?

Would Have You Ever Started This Thread?
If I had a LL, I sure wouldn't cry myself to sleep over these ideas. I could live with them and definitely I would feel like I had got my money's worth so far. Anything going forward would be just a bonus. That's how I'd feel about it.
 
They Bought & Own a Lifetime Deer License!

They Will Get a Deer Tag for the Rest of their Lives!

A Tag for one of the General Deer Units!

A General Tag of Their Choice!

Is it all the Tough to Figure Out?

If You were in Possession of a Life Time License?

Would Have You Ever Started This Thread?
I pretty much agree with this!
Give them all the tags in a unit if that is what they want. This whole thread is about me, me, me.

There is not one person on this forum who can see all the ramifications of decisions made today into the future. But it is certainly easy to armchair quarterback decisions made in the past.

Keep screwing with things until you screw it up completely.
 
I pretty much agree with this!
Give them all the tags in a unit if that is what they want. This whole thread is about me, me, me.

There is not one person on this forum who can see all the ramifications of decisions made today into the future. But it is certainly easy to armchair quarterback decisions made in the past.

Keep screwing with things until you screw it up completely.
I Like That Last Sentence!
 
A lifetime license granted you a “general season” deer tag of your choice. The reality is we no longer have general season deer tags. That fact will become more and more obvious in the coming years. We’ve already eliminated 2/3 of the deer tags, ended over the counter tags, moved from general regions to micro units, and set up a draw system with preference points. More changes are coming but folks sure get defensive if you point out the obvious.

Hawkeye
 
And Hawkeye?

Do You Remember the Reason We Went to Micro-management?

With Poor Management Even that has Failed!

Just Like Some of us knew it would!

MANAGING GAME FOR MONEY!


A lifetime license granted you a “general season” deer tag of your choice. The reality is we no longer have general season deer tags. That fact will become more and more obvious in the coming years. We’ve already eliminated 2/3 of the deer tags, ended over the counter tags, moved from general regions to micro units, and set up a draw system with preference points. More changes are coming but folks sure get defensive if you point out the obvious.

Hawkeye
 
And Hawkeye?

Do You Remember the Reason We Went to Micro-management?

With Poor Management Even that has Failed!

Just Like Some of us knew it would!

MANAGING GAME FOR MONEY!
How about taking your blinders off and get out of the basin once in a while. I know of several units that have improved greatly because of option 2.
 
Oo
Ya!

deadibob is gonna MENTOR Me with His Lifetime License here in a year or two!
Good luck with that one. Well, it's been fun. You know where I stand on this topic. This year should be 38 years in a row getting a deer tag. So it's never been about that.
 
The reality is we no longer have general season deer tags.

Hawkeye

Hawkeye, you know better than this. The state can make every unit limited entry, but under definitions and processes, your statement above is not factually accurate. It just isn’t. “General season” never meant “over the counter” or “non-draw tags.”

And the state had NOT made the whole state limited entry. I hope ya’ll will be happy when they do that to address this major problem we have with LL. Cut off your nose to spite your face. It’s the human way!

Ridge, I assure you I’m not crying myself to sleep over any proposal that has very little to no chance of passing. Especially since I said if we really had the problem, I’m amendable to the general concept you’ve laid out. It appears those coming at you the strongest don’t even have the LL.

The sacrifice I’ve made for you is I’ve never applied for a Thousand Lakes tag. You’re welcome? But I do still have a plan to call you on a different unit.
 
Vanilla, like you, I fully understand the definitional differences between Utah’s General Units and LE Units. My point is there are no “General Units” as existed prior to 1994. Times have changed —drastically. That fact will become more and more obvious as our herds continue to dwindle and demand continues to increase. According to the DWR, we could see an 8 to 10 year wait for a “General Unit” tag in Southern Utah within the next few years. It is just a matter of time before this issue comes to a head. Many on this forum (not you) are offended if you point out this fact. Oh well.

By the way, I have an unrelated question for you. I’ll shoot you a pm.

Hawkeye
 
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When the Life Time Permits were first introduced I contacted the DWR for more information. Years ago there were fewer units and at that time I could see what might come, down the road, with the reducing deer herds. Because of my specific question regarding a certain unit, Utah's finest (DWR) told me that I would be guaranteed a permit, but I may not get the unit I want. Because of his information I did not purchase that special license.

It is now time that the LT Permit holders should be required to make more than one choice for their deer permit or have a unit assigned to them.
 
Their are no more general season hunts in Utah.
They are all LE tags.....limited licenses=limited entry.
Not that hard to understand?
And no, I have never not drawn a tag in UT in the draw for a limited entry tag. When they went to a drawing general seasons were done in UT.

LL hunters have never cost me a tag.
 
Open it up so any one can by a LL. It is crap that someone that wasn't alive doesn't have the same opportunity. Arizona and Idaho still offer LL - although different. Utah should offer it and all general tags will go to LL, but that is at least fair. The fact that someone bought the tag before 20% of the hunters were even born and gets that benefit indefinitely is WRONG. Someone needs to file a lawsuit on discrimination due to AGE.
You must vote for socialism.
 
Their are no more general season hunts in Utah.
They are all LE tags.....limited licenses=limited entry.
Not that hard to understand?

That may be YOUR definition, and it may be easy for YOU to understand it, but it certainly isn’t the correct definition.

I’ll use the one the state actually uses, not one made up on the internet. Call me crazy!
 
What is the definition of LE and general?

It is how they classify it, not necessarily a specific definition. Speaking only for residents on buck deer permits, since that is what we are discussing here, here are the major differences in the classifications. Permit fees are different with the general season permit being $40 while the limited entry permit is $80 (or more for premium limited entry or multi-season limited entry hunts). General season permits are also in a different point system than limited entry. General is on a preference point system while limited entry is on the bonus point system. General season permits are not subject to a 5 year wait period like limited entry permits are. Finally, how animals are "managed" is illustrative for the distinctions between these two classifications as well with large differences in buck to doe ratios, number of available permits, etc. as just a couple examples. These two classifications are vastly different, so suggesting all hunts in Utah are "limited entry" is factually not correct, and quite frankly, kind of silly.

"General season" has never meant "unlimited over the counter permits." It is how they classify the hunts, not the availability of the permits.

Now, the state absolutely could reclassify the entire state to "limited entry" hunts. They could get rid of general season, get rid of the preference point system and put everything in the buck deer bonus point pool, increase the cost of tags to a minimum $80, greatly reduce the number of tags (I'm guessing cutting state wide tags in half at least, if not even more than that) to artificially inflate the buck to doe ratios on all units across the state that would not meet the limited entry requirements, and then make every single person who gets a tag go into a 5 year wait period. The state really could do this, it would be well within their power and authority. And if they did, it would end the ability of those with a lifetime license to get a general season buck deer tag on the unit of their choice every year. Yes, the state could do this, but do you all REALLY want them too? I'm guessing some do, but some of ya'll better start thinking about the implications of what you are talking about. Yeah, you may stick it to those evil lifetime license holders. At what cost?

Like I have said many times now...how we as hunters work so hard to restrict people from hunting will never cease to amaze me. I'd just assume that you and I both went hunting. Others hunting isn't a threat to me, I really want you all to go hunting!
 
I wish they let us mentor others. I believe we can only mentor our own family members. Now that my kids are grown up. I have to wait for my grand kids to get old enough. But I know of other kids I would mentor my tag to get them out hunting. I believe the last deer I tagged out with my own tag was 2004. I don't really get excited with a buck unless it's over 180. Finding a 180 class and larger buck on public land is doable but it takes a lot of luck. But I will keep trying. I don't feel it necessary to just fill a tag each year. So I am not hurting your deer numbers. My little brother hasn't used his LL tag in 15 years or more.
 
I wish they let us mentor others. I believe we can only mentor our own family members. Now that my kids are grown up. I have to wait for my grand kids to get old enough. But I know of other kids I would mentor my tag to get them out hunting. I believe the last deer I tagged out with my own tag was 2004. I don't really get excited with a buck unless it's over 180. Finding a 180 class and larger buck on public land is doable but it takes a lot of luck. But I will keep trying. I don't feel it necessary to just fill a tag each year. So I am not hurting your deer numbers. My little brother hasn't used his LL tag in 15 years or more.
The last LL tag I put on a buck was 05. I'm pretty easy on the Zion bucks
 
Don't mislead him! That number might be close to the issued tag levels but the actual used tags (on a buck deer) would be south of 1000 from what I've seen. Many of us haven't "used" a tag in almost a decade.

Zeke
That’s exactly what I was getting at. Lots of fuss over what is likely a very small percentage of active buck hunters out of the original LL holders.
Thanks Zeke
 
BigJohn,

They changed that provision. The familial relation is no longer required. Any 21+ can mentor any resident youth as long as you have parental/guardian permission. There is a form they can fill out and you take it in with you when you go get the mentor tags.
 
BigJohn,

They changed that provision. The familial relation is no longer required. Any 21+ can mentor any resident youth as long as you have parental/guardian permission. There is a form they can fill out and you take it in with you when you go get the mentor tags.
I'm getting permission from Bessy's mommy and gonna mentor him on the Henry's this year. ?
 
That’s exactly what I was getting at. Lots of fuss over what is likely a very small percentage of active buck hunters out of the original LL holders.
Thanks Zeke
Last week I went through all my tags/licenses that I've had since the dawn of time and less than half my lifetime deer tags had notches in them.

It's a good thing there isn't an expiration date on them because I'm building up a stockpile of tags along with my stockpile of ghost guns for when the apocalypse comes?
 
Ridgetop and Hawkeye all make good points that seem to be ignored. I don't think it will impact me either way, but you are talking about a license that hasn't been offered for sale for ~25 years. A lot of hunters never had the option to buy these licenses, and some probably opted not to purchase one when they could.
Grandfathering in this group of people to always receive "the best" general season tags, without limitations, when these tags have become increasingly limited is problematic.
The analogy to Dedicated Hunters is appropriate. There are still caps on each unit. Similar caps for LL holders is not unreasonable, but I understand holders of these licenses will howl loudly. It doesn't make them right.
Bill
 
Don't mislead him! That number might be close to the issued tag levels but the actual used tags (on a buck deer) would be south of 1000 from what I've seen. Many of us haven't "used" a tag in almost a decade.

Zeke
Who's doing the misleading?
My proposal has nothing to do will saving a bucks life but only about keeping a few of the unit from being overloaded with LL tag holders.
What I find ironic is many on here that have been crying "fair chase" for whatever reason. Are the ones not wanting any change to the current LL tag allotment.
WHAT ABOUT "fair draw"?
For the record, there were 3,893 LL tags issued last year. That's a lot of tags to be granted to any unit of their choice before anyone else even get a change to draw.
Open this link and you can see where all the tags went last year.

 
Maybe we should take money away from all these people that can buy landowner tags every year and use it to get us a couple tags. Then it would be fair. Life's not fair Ridge, you know that.
 
Seems to me like the lifetime license holders are doing a pretty good job of self-distributing themselves across the various units and seasons. And, I don't understand why anybody--lifetime license or otherwise--would want a Thousand Lakes tag anyway. It has one of the smallest herds and lowest success rates of any of the units in the state. Let 'em have it.
 
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Ridgetop and Hawkeye all make good points that seem to be ignored. I don't think it will impact me either way, but you are talking about a license that hasn't been offered for sale for ~25 years. A lot of hunters never had the option to buy these licenses, and some probably opted not to purchase one when they could.
Grandfathering in this group of people to always receive "the best" general season tags, without limitations, when these tags have become increasingly limited is problematic.
The analogy to Dedicated Hunters is appropriate. There are still caps on each unit. Similar caps for LL holders is not unreasonable, but I understand holders of these licenses will howl loudly. It doesn't make them right.
Bill
It's funny that you of all people would talk about what does or doesn't make something right coming from somebody who ripped off their PH in Africa for thousands of dollars.

It seems like you have bigger things to worry about than lifetime license holders.
 
deadibob,

As I can't see any profile information, I don't believe I know you, but I assure you the accusation you are making is untrue. Feel free to reach out to me via PM if you have something you want to discuss. I'm sure you will want to man-up and tell me who you are at the same time, instead of just making false accusations.

It seems I must have struck a nerve, with what I consider to be a pretty innocuous post. Others continue to make constructive posts on this topic, and I can see the validity of their arguments. Others see their point as well.
 
Now I know why when I research an Utah unit the allotted tags never seem to match up with what is posted. As a NR this always made it hard to predict NR tag allotments.
 
deadibob,

As I can't see any profile information, I don't believe I know you, but I assure you the accusation you are making is untrue. Feel free to reach out to me via PM if you have something you want to discuss. I'm sure you will want to man-up and tell me who you are at the same time, instead of just making false accusations.

It seems I must have struck a nerve, with what I consider to be a pretty innocuous post. Others continue to make constructive posts on this topic, and I can see the validity of their arguments. Others see their point as well.
PM sent

and yes SOME see the validity of some of the arguments. There are also many who don't while at the same time lots of the ideas thrown out here are absolutely laughable.
 
Who's doing the misleading?
My proposal has nothing to do will saving a bucks life but only about keeping a few of the unit from being overloaded with LL tag holders.
What I find ironic is many on here that have been crying "fair chase" for whatever reason. Are the ones not wanting any change to the current LL tag allotment.
WHAT ABOUT "fair draw"?
For the record, there were 3,893 LL tags issued last year. That's a lot of tags to be granted to any unit of their choice before anyone else even get a change to draw.
Open this link and you can see where all the tags went last year.

Sorry ridgetops Say what you want but It really don't matter what units they put in for year after year they paid to play.
Really wish I could of got one myself but I didn't have the money.
I paid to play when I applied for my DH permit I did my 32 service hours and paid $190 for it and I was Guaranteed at tag for 3 years and I was very picky on what I harvested and I only harvested one buck in 3 years.
I truly believe the LL holders have done the same as far as harvesting deer because they know they get a tag every year.

This post wouldn't even be an issue if we had more Deer and more tags.
But until we get moisture and more feed on the landscape this is only going to get worst we are in a severe drought and it going to take a few years of moisture to get out of it....
 
This post wouldn't even be an issue if we had more Deer and more tags.
But until we get moisture and more feed on the landscape this is only going to get worst we are in a severe drought and it going to take a few years of moisture to get out of it....
You are making my point for me, so thank you.
It is going to get worse and we are going to loose more tags.
The DH program has changed over the years to fit current situations.
Each unit is capped at 15% for the DH, which is a relative new change.
Each unit allows 20% to be reserved to the youth.
Why not have a cap on the LL holder for each unit?
I'm not opposed to having it capped at 10% for each unit across the board to make things more simple.
It would make a difference on point creep for those few units that are above that 10% mark on LL tags.
After this years draws, some units that will be getting big tag cuts, will be seeing 20%+ going to the LL tag holder.
It's time for the LL tag holder to make some sacrifices in today's time period.
It's times for change.
 
I didn't make any point for you.

Your not getting the point.
LL holder paid to play and it wasn't never designed to have a % Cap when it was offered to the public on any unit right so you can't change it and they can't change it unless they want a big lawsuit on there hands.

so you can't you compare the DH and the YOUTH with LL holders they where put in place with a % cap on every unit totally different scenario.


I truly don't see them cutting too many more tags or any more at all with not enough feed on the landscape it would be total devastation.

the DWR have data to back it up on what's going on here they need to keep the deer in check.
We have to harvest them and people that say shut it down that would be the worst thing to do for our deer herds right now.

It is time for a change sounds like people need to explore other units if they can't get a tag or don't want to wait to draw a tag it's an easy fix..
But it isn't LL holder fault or anyone else fault it's mother nature.
 
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Bunch of jelous, butt hurt little girls on here
As far it not being fair suck it up.
Life isn't fair get over it
LL holders. Paid in advance to play the game they gambled on there even being a hunting season in the. Future At the time they put their money down they,deserve the privelages that come with it
 
If you really think they can’t change LL, what a nice world you live in. Not saying it won’t get involved, but will be done one day!!! The sooner the better.

The fact that a select few get the privilege to hunt every year and the rest of us don’t and can’t is wrong. When LL were sold, general deer tags were over the counter. Everyone could hunt any unit they wanted. It has changed. LL holders privileges need to change.
 
Bunch of jelous, butt hurt little girls on here
As far it not being fair suck it up.
Life isn't fair get over it
LL holders. Paid in advance to play the game they gambled on there even being a hunting season in the. Future At the time they put their money down they,deserve the privelages that come with it
Easy to say when your the one holding the golden ticket and trying to be a tough guy behind your keyboard!
 
Jealousy is an interesting thing to see in adults. All goes back to the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality today. To all those that had the opportunity to buy the LL and did not, too bad as my son says. No need to continue trying to bash those who had the stones to buy the LL when given the chance.
 
Jealousy is an interesting thing to see in adults. All goes back to the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality today. To all those that had the opportunity to buy the LL and did not, too bad as my son says. No need to continue trying to bash those who had the stones to buy the LL when given the chance.
People 35 years old and younger never had a chance. Now they have no chance at getting some of these tags unless they wait 5 plus years but to hell with those guys. There will be changes coming , so be prepared.
 
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