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Dept of Game & Fish: Web site records 1.8 million hits for lottery results
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By KARL F. MOFFATT | For The New Mexican
June 27, 2007

Editor's note: This story has been corrected with the number of permits available and the number awarded at the end of the file. The New Mexican regrets this error.

The state Department of Game and Fish?s Web site is up and running again after hunters seeking online drawing results overloaded the system last week.

?We did have some problems initially that overtaxed the system,? said Game and Fish spokesman Dan Williams. ?But most hunters have called us or gone into to the Web site and have their results.?

Hunters deluged the system on June 18 and 19 looking for results of the annual drawing for hunting licenses.

The site recorded 1.8 million hits on June 19, Williams said, adding that he suspects hunters were having problems with the system and kept trying. This resulted in multiple hits, which compounded the problem, he said.

After the system went down, it took a couple of days to get it up and running again. In the interim, Game and Fish employees provided results by phone to those who called in.


The computer problem was resolved by dedicating the Web site solely to providing drawing results through a form page. The department's home page and links were unavailable until Tuesday afternoon.

The Web site experienced a similar problem last year, and computer personnel are considering possible remedies such as adding bandwidth to the site to avoid future problems, Williams said.

The department is in its third year of utilizing an online system for hunting-license applicants and is still working out a few kinks, Williams said.

The online system allows hunters to apply for a hunting license online. Hunters pay a $6 administration fee, and if their name is drawn for a license, the final cost is charged to their account.

In the past, hunters were required to submit paperwork and payment up front. Refunds were issued by the department if the hunter failed to draw a license.

The new system has proven to be so much easier and more convenient for hunters that each year more and more hunters are applying online, Williams said. The site?s popularity could also be contributing to the problem.

In the first year of online operation, the department received applications from 145,126 people, about 54 percent of all hunting applications taken that year.

The following year, the number of online applications jumped to 156,024, or 63 percent. This year, online application numbers climbed to 162,978 or 69 percent of all applications, Williams said.

This year?s statistics for show that Game and Fish received a total of 162,978 applications and awarded 56,251 licenses, about a 35 percent success rate.

Williams said some 2,600 hunts that did not draw any initial interest from hunters were still available.

It remains to be seen if and when those hunts will be identified and put up for sale, Williams said. Williams noted that 78 percent of all licenses sold are dedicated to state residents.

The following statistics were released for this year?s hunting season:

There are 66,706 applications for elk; 20,167 were available; and 20,110 have been awarded.
There are 62,652 applications for deer; 34,814 were available; and 32,285 have been awarded.
There are 17,768 applications for antelope; 1,658 were available; and 1,658 have been awarded.
There are 8,451 applications for bighorn sheep; 18 were available; and 18 have been awarded.
There are 4,231 applications for ibex; 175 were available; and 175 have been awarded.
There are 3,170 applications for javelina; 2,005 were available; and 2,005 have been awarded.
Wildlife activities such as hunting and fishing contribute over $1 billion to the state?s economy annually.
 
Those numbers are crazy! And just think , not everybody tried to log online and check results, I know a few guys who just wait...
 
I know I hit it about 10,000 times... I am not use to it and still am a bit unsure about how I get my NR DEER tag.. I think I just hit any sporting good store and buy it!
but the lady on phone said they will run my CC and mail me my tag..
rm
 
Hey should go back to requiring the fees up front. That'll help with the odds a bit.
-Raptor
 
NMRaptor, I agree 100% , all fees paid up front, and then refunds if and when not drawn....
 
That makes four of us for it! But.....you KNOW they wont give up that revenue for us to have a decent chance at a tag! Do the math on that! That's a lot of bucks
 
They really need to go back to the pay up front deal. It will make our odds better. I thought I heard the new commision appointment that took over Riordan's spot was going to look into making the odds better for locals. Demanding a pay first system would be a nice start.

But with big government the way it is in NM they will always go for the green.
 
does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumor that PETA put in like 50,000 applications into the NM draw?
 
Not sure where thats coming from. Even if PETA did do that , theres no way of tracking it , how do you tell if a person is conected to PETA? Thats $300,000.00 in app fees alone , which is no skin off that stinky back , but lets just say there was some truth to it. They draw a crap load of tags , but obviously don't go/use them. Thats just gonna help strengthen herd numbers.....Maybe....
 
I just really would like to see them do the deer like they do all others. If you draw you get hit for the tag fee - then a license is sent.
 
I wonder if that PETA thing could be used as a valid argument for paymrnt up front? Maybe we ought to get together and try to get it changed even though I for one am very pessimistic about the results we would get given those dollar amounts. What do other states show as total number of applicants compared to ours?
 
Numbers for 2006 Arizona Draw:

Species: # of Permits 1st & 2nd Choice Applicants
Elk 24,519 189,363/ 94,682

Deer 40,100 173,902/ 86,951

Antelope 953 52,328/ 26,164

total 65,572 415,593/ 207,797

Did not have numbers for Bighorn Sheep, Javelina or Fall Buffalo

Even if you divide the 1st and 2nd choice in half (second number behind back slash) and count the application just once, the total number of applicants exceeds New Mexico's total. In addition, those totals don't include bighorn sheep, Javelina and Fall Buffalo. So, compared with Arizona make your own conclusion. I might try and find the numbers for Arizona when they used the paper applications and applicants had to put the tag fees upfront. Might take me a little while.

IMO, New Mexico appears to have a more successful system. Of course, that could be debated forever. However, being an Arizona native and current New Mexico resident, I've yet to draw an elk tag in Arizona with 13 bonus points and have drawn a deer tag twice in the last 13 years. So, I share the pain of being an unlucky applicant.

MBBGH
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-07 AT 01:56AM (MST)[p]another one here for full price up front...given they will hold the money for a minimum of 2 months, they will gain more interest revenue from that vs. the 6 app fee...in addition to g/f earning more money, hopefully better odds for residents...anyway, good luck to those that drew...

shoot straight...

solrac
 
Now that makes sense. I never thought of holding the money and making interest on it as a way of gaining income. Cool idea. I just might run the numbers and see what I can come up with as an informed sounding argument to take to the game commission meeting. THIS HAS GOT TO STOP!!! Seven years and counting I can't draw a tag in a 33% odds unit! Those numbers are depressing as I was hoping to see a whole lot more NM applicants than a state that requires up front payment thus giving evidence of some sort of sabotage.....Oh well.
 
WELL arizonas website/online vendor dies and they extended the deadline and required all monies upfront for the fall deer draw. elk/lope in spring time were computer app/draw and only required the app fees. I will say that for us nonresidents, and residents for that matter it is very hard to come up with all of that cash for hunts out of state. when my son and I did NOT draw elk or antelope in arizona we applied in new mexico and drew both elk and deer no lopes though. for the record it is $541 dollars for my elk tag plus the $6 dollar app fee, then an additional $12 dollars for app fees for deer then after drawing the tags it is another $541 dollars to buy the licenses. plus the habitat stamps ? $$ that is for nm alone. colorado my son and I applied for only deer up there and he got to only pay the youth fees of $100.25, then my fee of $300.00. thats another $400.25 for nonresident tags there. no we did not draw those colorado tags but we also did NOT receive our refund yet so had to use different money to pay nm. now az even though we are residents the fees went up. it was $42.25 me and $28.75 for my sons youth deer tags only. that is the largest one time increase in arizonas tag fees EVER ! now I am not going to hear a bunch of crap like "don't apply" right ? I am allowed to talk and ##### about tag/drawing costs as much as anyone else. but like my post states. there are two of us hunting in this family. there are two fee's for everything. it is easier on some of us NOT to have to come up with all that cash at once. maybe increase the app fees, not really increase it but take the tag fees if drawn down a little to keep the hunt/tag at the same cost. instead of $6.00 dollars for each animal, for each hunter- make it $100.00 app fee for each animal, for each hunter. then the hunt cost of $541, if drawn would now be $441. that might ease the non hunters out if it costs more, just NOT the whole tag fees up front. that would keep us poor folks from applying and give the tags to the wealthy ones. nothing more.




Proud White Man !!!!!
M WAITE, AZ.
 
I would like to see NM follow Az by requiring a license be purchased before you can apply for a tag. Then they could do the internet thing for 6.00.

Makes you think about it when you are spending $150 up front knowing you won't get that back.

Increase revenue, decrease application numbers and create equity between states.....
 
Hunterman:

I am in the same boat as you, with a 17 year-old son. Fortunately, we live in MT, where we are allowed OTC deer and elk, so if we don't draw out of state, we are still hunting.

As much as I agree with your post on most issues, I just don't know how to sort out the casual guys, other than requiring costs up front. I don't like it, as it makes it less of a burden on guys with plenty of cash.

I would make the financial sacrafice if fees were required up front. It would hurt the savings account for a few months until the refunds showed up. I would rather that option than the pay money up front just to apply, such as AZ, NV, ID. I think the loss of interest on the money is less of a burden than an up front fee, never to be returned, even if unsuccessful.

Even when my problem is mutliplied by two of us, I would rather front the entire fee, if change is deemed necessary.

I hope you and your son draw a lot of tags, just don't take ours!


"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
All I'm sayin' is that something is seriously messed up with the system!
I just ran some numbers from last year's elk odds report and it sure looks fishy to me! The total number of choices was 151,745. I divided this by three as most will put down all three on their app. This give you a total number of 50,582 applicants. Is someone going to try and tell me that in one year's time we miraculously gained 15,000+ new ek hunters? The wife just got onto me for automatically thinking conspiracy but I don't think there are too many other explanations! Make them pay the full price up front and you have a butt load of money to make interest on for a couple of months!!!
 
cookie, it could be feasible that 15k more hunters applied this year b/c of rising NM popularity and the ease and low cost of applying, but i also doubt it. but then again if you take into account the increasing thousands of people getting frustrated with never drawing tags in utah, nevada, AZ, oregon, etc then it might explain the big jump. thousands of people like to apply to NM b/c we dont do bonus/preference point draws.

also, i ran some app numbers and came up with a different total for app fees$... 162,978/.69 = 236,200...... 236,200* $6 = $1,417,200 in app fees.... a boatload of money and i really hope they can find something to use it on that is beneficial to all residents and outdoorsmen in NM
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-05-07 AT 02:20AM (MST)[p]
I guess I'm missing what you guys are getting at-
I took the numbers from the initial post about the Santa Fe New Mexican article and came up with
2005- 268,751 total applicants (54% online aps)
2006- 247,657 total applicants (63% online aps)
2007- 236,200 total applicants (69% online aps)
Where are you getting 15 thousand new elk applicants from?

There are many deer units that had fewer aps than tags, If all you put in for is 2B and 2C, YEA, it may take you a decade or so to draw. Cookie, your right that paying upfront would limit applicants- There is some wisdom (and longterm benefit for all of us)in keeping the joe-blow deer hunter in the game and not having them trade in their rifles for golfclubs. The department has to keep that kind of thing in mind.


By the way, they do spend that money beneficial to all residents and outdoorsmen in NM, Wardens trucks and gas. NM is one of the few states Game Departments that are ENTIRELY self funded from license sales. (I'd love to see a deal like CO or AZ where some kind of tiny tax is taken from all citizens for resource management, their departments are 2-3 times better funded.)

Any way, I appologize for always jumping on as the devils advocate around here- just trying to add a little different perspective.


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NM Operation Game Thief 1-800-432-4263
?I want as game protectors men of courage, resolution, and hardihood, who can handle the rifle, ax, and paddle; who can camp out in summer or winter; who can go on snowshoes if necessary; who can go through the woods by day or night without regard to trails" Theodore Roosevelt-1899
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these states are making thier money already on the license and tag sales. literally millions of dollars on that alon. when we send in all the money early they also make money from the interest on all the money we send in early, they get the interest PLUS the tag/lic fee's. if there are some worried that peta was buying up chances at these tags because it is only the 6 dollar fee upfront. then we should change that. if any proof is there I would be happy to see it all. I live in az and as a resident it is VERY hard to draw an elk tag, even a deer tag. and I DO NOT apply in the "trophy" units that most hunters do. I pick the odd units with little or no animals in them because no one is really trying for those tags and I know there are animals there. I have NEVER entered any drawing in arizona, utah, new mexico, or colorado that are considered "high demand" or "quality" hunts. I choose general hunts hoping I will draw and be able to hunt. to me it is better to draw a deer/elk tag and go hunting than sit on a points list and hopefully get a tag someday just to hunt in a "trophy" unit. and go figure- we still can't draw tags- lol.
I think if the cost of a elk tag is $541 dollars for a nonresident (like my nm elk tag now) then a hunter- resident or nonresident should have to put in a $100.00 app fee INSTEAD of the $6 dollar fee. then "IF" the tag is drawn the hunter is only charged the remaining $441.00 dollars for the tag. the tag stays the same price, so no increases there, but the app fee or UPFRONT money is increased to a cost high enough to keep out the peta tag stealers. everyone wins. peta will not apply for 2500 tags at a cost of 25,000 per year, per species, in all states. they are NOT that rich or stupid. I would be more than willing to put up extra money to apply if it was included in the tag price "IF" I drew the tag. if not I get all but 10 bucks back- ?

Proud White Man !!!!!
M WAITE, AZ.
 
Guys ,
the internet application has proven to increase applicants. In NM since 2002 there has also been an increase in youth and female hunters , not much but it is happening which is a good thing.
As for tag allocations , if the proclomation states that 100 bull tags will be given for a certain unit, lets say unit 17 for example. Keep in mind that the proclomation is printed and released long before animal counts are conducted . Now , the G&F starts their flying the unit for counting and for what ever reason , realize that elk numbers are drasticly down, the G&F along with the Elk Biologist can re-evaluate how to keep a stable herd , and one tool they may use is to decrease tag numbers , lets say from 100 to 80.It's at their discretion and I believe they are more than qualified. Politics will always be dirty in some way , but the biologists do have a very strong say in to what direction the herd will be managed. This is just an example and does not always happen , I believe it rarely happens , but when it does , it's for the benifit of the animals and on the back side of this kind of event , it's the hunters who have less tags to draw for in the lottery. My writing here isn't of thought or opinion. Every year after a season has passed , once the GAME & Fish release the drawing odds report I print it out and start to look over units by app numbers and tags allocated. I may be obsessed with it but I enjoy crunching the numbers and it has helped me understand the draw and how to work within whats offered.
Now as for the 3rd and 4th choice which is offered for deer and elk , you all would be so surprised how many hunters DO NOT mark a 3rd or 4th choice. Many people want to go to their area to hunt and hunting to many a person is a recreational outting.Not all outdoorsmen that hunt are passionate hunters that ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HUNT AT ALL COSTS NO MATTER WHAT,like most of us here at MM. Also because NM has gone to a statewide draw for deer now , I personally know of some old timers who have hunted all their lives but have never particapated in an application process and just don't know how to do it. My advice to the State of NM Game & Fish is to start to offer classes throughout all of NM , bigger towns and smaller communities on how to be apart of the application process.They have many tools to advertise such a class , local news papers and also a print out inside the proclomation, remember it's released very early now.

As for conspirency , no theres no smoking gun , it is what it is. Hunting in NM is more popular right now than it has ever been. The State still runs the draw in true lottery fashion, no waiting 10 years building points to finally draw and hunt for bull elk , you can hunt 15,16 or 17 or 34 EVERY YEAR as long as you draw and you have JUST AS MUCH A CHANCE as every other applicant . Can't say that for states that have a point system eh???? NM also offers non residents' tags at a very affordable cost , just look at a NR elk tag in NV!!!

I don't know all there is to know about hunting, the draw , elk or deer but I do for a fact know , you can't draw if you don't apply , and somebody has to draw a tag, so it may as well be you or me , right???
 
Points well taken guys. I am feeling pretty small right now like I might have jumped the gun just a little but I am not quite ready to give up my cause. I already knew about the departments funding coming 100% from license sales and for this issue I WOULD recommend an increase in application fees. Let's say take it to $20. I'm sure a $14 increase could be afforable for all involved. If not you probably have no business hunting in the first place. That would definitely buy a few trucks and gas. It just might also weed out some of the "extras."
On the new youth hunters I think it may be a direct result of the new youth only hunts. I believe this is a very good thing. It gives young hunters a little better chance at drawing a tag that otherwise they might not ever draw. On the women hunters I wonder if the "old man" doesn't think he's upping his own odds of drawing a tag by putting his "ole lady's" name in the hat too! Not ALL female hunters are of this persuasion mind you, my mom hunts with a passion, but she's not "new" either!
I couldn't find that smoking gun either NUTT! It probably doesn't exist. And on second look my numbers were WAY wrong. I apologize to all who may have taken offense to anything I might have said in this thread. I'm just a VERY passionate bowhunter who is getting really frustrated with seeing "unsuccessful" EVERY YEAR!!!! Once again I have found a way to go but it is probably out of my means! She's probably gonna throw the brakes on this eventually but it means a lot to me and she's pretty understanding right now.
 
Cookie2 , no apolgies needed. You said it ok , your passionate , and after 7 years of "un successful" helll , I'd get twisted pretty easy too. Your unit is very much top notch for elk though I've never hunted it , but I'd choose the one hunt you just would go nutts over and then look at two other , lesser units for 2nd and 3rd choice , and after not going for that many years ,I'd be marking that 4th choice , just get me into the woods!
 
State record bull killed on fourth choice hunt last year. GMU 18?. Real pig too.

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NM Operation Game Thief 1-800-432-4263
?I want as game protectors men of courage, resolution, and hardihood, who can handle the rifle, ax, and paddle; who can camp out in summer or winter; who can go on snowshoes if necessary; who can go through the woods by day or night without regard to trails" Theodore Roosevelt-1899
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Actually Bills bull score 396 and change and the state record(current until next entry) is 402 and some ...Still a bull of a lifetime but I know and agree with what your saying...
 
But would you still put in 2nd, 3rd, 4th if you were watching the next state record???? If you draw one of the others that leaves NO chance at the big boy you've put SO much effort into. I put in a fourth three years ago and got stuck with a 23 early hunt. Talk about learning experience! I just don't care to go on one of the "leftover hunts" again. I hear what you're saying though. Got me a landowner tag, FINALLY! Big BUll Goin' Down!!!!
 
No, Cookie you got me there. If I was watching the next state record I'd put in and hope, while a was scraping my pennies and beer money for a landowner tag as a back-up plan. Good Luck with that. (I assumed you hunt the Saramentos? Now I'm thinking Gila)

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NM Operation Game Thief 1-800-432-4263
?I want as game protectors men of courage, resolution, and hardihood, who can handle the rifle, ax, and paddle; who can camp out in summer or winter; who can go on snowshoes if necessary; who can go through the woods by day or night without regard to trails" Theodore Roosevelt-1899
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