RAC permit recommendations for 2022

Twoshooter

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Permit recommendations and presentations are up on the website for the rac meetings. Looks like Pine Valley is taking a big cut this year.


 
Manti lost 600.

Not sure where there was 20 buck:doe on it last year.


How do they come up with this crap.

Supposedly the Manti is on an upward swing, yet they cut tags even though it's at quota?

Are they anticipating something? Or ultimately do they not believe their own data?
 
It's tough to see tag numbers decrease this year but I think it will have more of an impact than all the other tech debates going on right now. It would be nice to see some of these units turn the corner and start heading in the right direction.
 
Next thing I am expecting to see is tag fees and application fees going up. If they reduce tags they aren't going to want to take a haircut on that revenue. :cautious::rolleyes:?
 
They should raise tag fees.

Sorry.

But inflation is real, either we pay, or they need the orgs more
You must be making the big bucks. :) I have definitely seen the inflation but I don't think salaries are keeping up... at least not mine.

Another option is they could reduce spending. Government overspending is what got us into this inflationary mess to begin with. Reduce spending needs to happen in all forms of government IMO. Last year the Division of Wildlife Resources budget was 116 million dollars... I think if they tried real hard they could make do.
 
Plateau Boulder is in the toilet and in 2019 was @ 13 buck to doe ratio and they cut 400 tags last year and now show it is @ 21 buck to doe ratio and want to raise the tags back up 400 to kill all the 2 year old two points
 
You must be making the big bucks. :) I have definitely seen the inflation but I don't think salaries are keeping up... at least not mine.

Another option is they could reduce spending. Government overspending is what got us into this inflationary mess to begin with. Reduce spending needs to happen in all forms of government IMO. Last year the Division of Wildlife Resources budget was 116 million dollars... I think if they tried real hard they could make do.


Have you tried buying a truck lately?

Gas?

You can't demand good biology, then not pay for it.

I have a hard time believing if they raised tags $10-$15 it would bankrupt you.

That a 12 pack of beer.

I'm all for small government. But do you prefer MDF/Sfw setting policy because they have the cash?
 
How low does it have to get to shut some of these units down. In many of these units issuing any tags is to many. I see where the Dutton is down to 250 tags yet still not low enough to be considered to be closed for a few years. I have hunted the beaver for 40 years, 1200 tags is way over what should be allowed. I would dare say most hunters on the Beaver would agree that it is ruined.
 
Have you tried buying a truck lately?

Gas?

You can't demand good biology, then not pay for it.

I have a hard time believing if they raised tags $10-$15 it would bankrupt you.

That a 12 pack of beer.

I'm all for small government. But do you prefer MDF/Sfw setting policy because they have the cash?
You are 100% right. I cant afford a new truck or gas. It all added up. $10 here and $10 there. "Death by a thousands cuts" is the name of the game of inflation. The only reason they need money from orgs like MDF and SFW is because they have expenses to pay. Cut the expenses and they don't need their money. Good biology and making decision based off science would be great if they actually did that. I think they try to be scientific but there are areas I think they are missing the mark greatly. Just my 2 cents.
 
Next thing I am expecting to see is tag fees and application fees going up. If they reduce tags they aren't going to want to take a haircut on that revenue. :cautious::rolleyes:?
Pine Valley is the only unit that took the big hit of 59% reduction. All the other units were a hundred here and a hundred there. Over all they increased tags in other units to where in the total state they only lost 50 tags total from last years total.

I know they need the money, but I believe about every unit in the state right now could have had reduced tags to help with the herd. Always trying to balance the budget at the herds expense.
Lower the tag numbers and add a few $$$ to the tag price to balance the budget in my opinion.
 
Pine Valley is the only unit that took the big hit of 59% reduction. All the other units were a hundred here and a hundred there. Over all they increased tags in other units to where in the total state they only lost 50 tags total from last years total.

I know they need the money, but I believe about every unit in the state right now could have had reduced tags to help with the herd. Always trying to balance the budget at the herds expense.
Lower the tag numbers and add a few $$$ to the tag price to balance the budget in my opinion.
I agree with your first points.

On the last part why is it always the hunters that have to fill in the budget gap? They should just reduce their spending. In many regards we have entrusted the division of wildlife with our natural resources and at least for the general deer units they don't seem to be doing a very good job. In the private sector, If you do poorly at your job do you continue to stay employed get raises?
 
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You are 100% right. I cant afford a new truck or gas. It all added up. $10 here and $10 there. "Death by a thousands cuts" is the name of the game of inflation. The only reason they need money from orgs like MDF and SFW is because they have expenses to pay. Cut the expenses and they don't need their money. Good biology and making decision based off science would be great if they actually did that. I think they try to be scientific but there are areas I think they are missing the mark greatly. Just my 2 cents.


Ever notice the best biologists, DONT work for the DWR? Ever wondered why.

Tags haven't increased in years. Name something else that hasnt
 
Ever notice the best biologists, DONT work for the DWR? Ever wondered why.

Tags haven't increased in years. Name something else that hasnt

Hoss, I'm sincerely asking, who do the best biologists work for? Do they work for the big ranches and CWMU's or the Feds? Are they social media influencers? Academia? Independent consultants?

Who specifically would you consider to be some of the best biologists? I'm genuinely curious. It would be interesting to see what the "best" biologists suggest as management actions to grow more mule deer.
 
Hoss, I'm sincerely asking, who do the best biologists work for? Do they work for the big ranches and CWMU's or the Feds? Are they social media influencers? Academia? Independent consultants?

Who specifically would you consider to be some of the best biologists? I'm genuinely curious. It would be interesting to see what the "best" biologists suggest as management actions to grow more mule deer.

Do I specifically know their names? No.

In general the private sector pays a ton more than public.

I've been told by the Manager one of the biggest Waterfowl Management areas that the clubs pay a ton better(no sure if that was as a consultant).

I notice that most of the studies being done now are in Academia?


I do know, I do bids for a living, and my prices from last year aren't even close to this year.

Trucks, materials, don't care what you think.

Which means you cut either people or projects to hit the budget.

When I drive up the road and see the foo foo coffee shop with cars surrounding it, it's hard to listen to whining about tag prices.. To be fair, what state is really killing it in mule deer?

To be fair
 
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I agree with your first points.

On the last part why is it always the hunters that have to fill in the budget gap? They should just reduce their spending. In many regards we have entrusted the division of wildlife with our natural resources and at least for the general deer units they don't seem to be doing a very good job. In the private sector, If you do poorly at your job do you continue to stay employed get raises?

Are you an employee or employer?
 
Without a doubt it is the southern units that show the most drastic decrease in permit numbers. Especially for deer. Astonished of the number of doe deer permits issued from 2017-2019.
 
Weird... DWR was unable to manage deer herd in an upward direction resulting in tag cuts across the state! Thank GAWD they banned trail cams after July 31. LOL
 
Do I specifically know their names? No.

In general the private sector pays a ton more than public.

I've been told by the Manager one of the biggest Waterfowl Management areas that the clubs pay a ton better(no sure if that was as a consultant).

I notice that most of the studies being done now are in Academia?


I do know, I do bids for a living, and my prices from last year aren't even close to this year.

Trucks, materials, don't care what you think.

Which means you cut either people or projects to hit the budget.

When I drive up the road and see the foo foo coffee shop with cars surrounding it, it's hard to listen to whining about tag prices.. To be fair, what state is really killing it in mule deer?

To be fair

People don't work for the government because of the money. They work for the government.for job security, defined benefit retirement, and group insurance.
 
Also, I'm a little confused about the tag numbers... It says Fishlake gave 800 tags last year, but when I look at the draw odds report and add up all tags, it's only 457 tags last year. ???
 
People don't work for the government because of the money. They work for the government.for job security, defined benefit retirement, and group insurance.

Fair enough.

But it's rare, that the top people in any field, come from government. Not a slight, but there are incentives in private. Not mention the fear or threat of no job security for failure.
 
This Ain't Rocket Science!

If You Were Trying To Increase Herd Numbers Would You Kill All The Yearlings And The Breeding Stock?

GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZUS!
 
Permit recommendations and presentations are up on the website for the rac meetings. Looks like Pine Valley is taking a big cut this year.


Glad to see this? Hopefully they stick to it for the next 3-5 years the unit is in bad shape
 
About 70% of a state agencies budget is people. The other 30% is capital outlay (buildings) and goods and services (think computers and gas). When the agency budgets for a 2-budget cycle things like gas are budgeted at a fixed cost on expected inflation. Inflation at 8% will mess the 30 percent of a state agency budget up very quickly. The next 2 year budget cycle you will definitely see a license increase, just how much is anyone's guess.

Rich
 
I would not complain about increasing the costs of licenses except for the fact that I think we already pay relatively high resident fees, they are raising tons of money selling conservation tags, they got a windfall of Federal infrastructure funding for restoration, and they got a COVID bump in Pittman-Robertson Federal Aid in funding from the Wildlife Restoration Act and Dingell-Johnson/Wallop-Breaux Federal Aid in Sport Fish Restoration Act. I think most salary increases come because employees gain experience, skill, and responsibility…or they leave for a higher paying job. Otherwise, I‘m not convinced that salaries have been keeping pace with inflation and I don’t know how anybody can afford to buy a house in SLC or many other parts of Utah now. They may need to raise fees and I will pay, but I think a lot of hunters would be justified to complain.
 
I would not complain about increasing the costs of licenses except for the fact that I think we already pay relatively high resident fees, they are raising tons of money selling conservation tags, they got a windfall of Federal infrastructure funding for restoration, and they got a COVID bump in Pittman-Robertson Federal Aid in funding from the Wildlife Restoration Act and Dingell-Johnson/Wallop-Breaux Federal Aid in Sport Fish Restoration Act. I think most salary increases come because employees gain experience, skill, and responsibility…or they leave for a higher paying job. Otherwise, I‘m not convinced that salaries have been keeping pace with inflation and I don’t know how anybody can afford to buy a house in SLC or many other parts of Utah now. They may need to raise fees and I will pay, but I think a lot of hunters would be justified to complain.


Wouldn't need to sell 500+ "conservation tags" if R didn't squeal about $35 deer tag
 
Well it looks like I picked the wrong year to switch to Wasatch muzzy bull.
Right,

What they did to the Wasatch doesn't make any sense at all. Pull a bunch of tags from the archery and muzzy hunts and give them to the mid, and late rifle season.

I don't understand the logic in that one. I didn't look to see if they did that to any other units.
 
Right,

What they did to the Wasatch doesn't make any sense at all. Pull a bunch of tags from the archery and muzzy hunts and give them to the mid, and late rifle season.

I don't understand the logic in that one. I didn't look to see if they did that to any other units.
I noticed the same thing, if anything they should be taking tags from the rifle hunts and adding them to archery and muzzy, not the other way around. Hope this doesn’t get approved, hope someone will scratch their head at this and ask why.
 
Yeah this doesn't make sense to me.

The only thing I can figure is they wanted to kill more bulls????

But if so keep the archery and muzzy hunt numbers the same, and add more tags to the mid, and late season just not as many as they just did.

Screenshot_20220325-143119_Drive.jpg
 
They keep saying every spring that they have the tag numbers right. Yet every year here we are another year later and another year with less bucks and doe.
 
There’s so many variables drought-water, overhunting, habitat-capacity, budget, killing doe’s. The list goes on……………
 
IMHO the dwr needs to go back to the 5 regions for deer hunting. Seems like ever since they implemented the micro units the deer herds have steadily nosed dived to what they are now.
 
IMHO the dwr needs to go back to the 5 regions for deer hunting. Seems like ever since they implemented the micro units the deer herds have steadily nosed dived to what they are now.
Yeah please explain how this would help!
FYI Pine valley has been steadily declining for the past 10-12 years. I live right in the heart of one of the winter range areas and deer numbers have been declining long before the units went into effect. Like stated above there are many factors that have led to the decline. But glad to see the the DWR is ready to start with the over hunting and cutting tags.
Now we really could use some normal to above normal moisture levels to help out as well.
 
I agree they need to be reduced even more and tags in most areas reduced even more. If we don’t really reduce in many units it might be to late to turn it back without shutting some areas down
 
How many people clamoring to reduce tag numbers are lifetime license holders that are guaranteed tag of choice every year?
 
How many people clamoring to reduce tag numbers are lifetime license holders that are guaranteed tag of choice every year?


What difference does that make?

I'm not for tag reductions overall. I wouldn't mind smaller units.

Not a lifetime holder
 
What difference does that make?

I'm not for tag reductions overall. I wouldn't mind smaller units.

Not a lifetime holder
My point was that it is easy for lifetime license holders to ask for tag reductions to improve hunt quality when you are not the one that has to make any sacrifice. I do not have LL, but I feel like everyone should be able to get a tag every year if that is how it is played. There are many other ways of reducing harvest rates if that is necessary, so I’m not for tag reductions.
 
That is a good suggestion that could be tried. They have some really poor units, would not hurt to try some different suggestions on some of these hurting units.
 
They can have as many tags as they want, if they would go to 3 point or better and 10 days hunt for archery, 5 days muzzle, 5 day rifle
I don’t think we would even need a 3 point or better rule if seasons were cut to 8 days archery, 6 muzz and 4 rifle. I’m talking archery august 20-27, muzzle September 20-25 and rifle October 20-23 regardless of of the day of the week and no additional seasons aside from these.
There are lot’s of things being looked at as the reason for the deer population struggles and most are totally legit but the one thing rarely mentioned is the non stop pressure from mid August to late January.
 
Maybe we should close the whole state ( Utah ) down for deer hunting for five years to see if that will bring the deer back, in stead of cutting tags.
 
I don’t think we would even need a 3 point or better rule if seasons were cut to 8 days archery, 6 muzz and 4 rifle. I’m talking archery august 20-27, muzzle September 20-25 and rifle October 20-23 regardless of of the day of the week and no additional seasons aside from these.
There are lot’s of things being looked at as the reason for the deer population struggles and most are totally legit but the one thing rarely mentioned is the non stop pressure from mid August to late January.
I totally agree. That would keep the deer in the mountains, and then stop the late elk hunts that push the deer down to the fields and towns thus are setup for a doe hunt.
 
shutting these very worst areas down is probably the best thing that could be done in the current situation
I disagree! Shutting down a unit doesn’t grow a deer herd. There are other issues besides hunting that causes the decline in herds. Habitat, predators, vehicle collision, the list goes on and on. Saving a few bucks in a unit will not grow deer numbers. We need does to have fawns that make it past their 1st year to grow a herd.
 
I disagree! Shutting down a unit doesn’t grow a deer herd. There are other issues besides hunting that causes the decline in herds. Habitat, predators, vehicle collision, the list goes on and on. Saving a few bucks in a unit will not grow deer numbers. We need does to have fawns that make it past their 1st year to grow a herd.
If the buck to doe ratio is adequate , predators and vehicles are prime factors in herds improving. Kill more cats and coyotes.
 
I disagree! Shutting down a unit doesn’t grow a t adeer herd. There are other issues besides hunting that causes the decline in herds. Habitat, predators, vehicle collision, the list goes on and on. Saving a few bucks in a unit will not grow deer numbers. We need does to have fawns that make it past their 1st year to grow a herd.
I can honestly say when I started hunting deer in the 50's, on the Beaver, I'll bet their was 30 to 40 bucks to 100 does, and at least 30,000 plus deer on the Beaver, when they went to their winter range we would have any where from 300 to 400 deer in our fields, for a couple of days then they would move on, what Jones of the DWR got to do is let the buck herd grow, and you will have enough bucks to breed the does, when we put our cow in the hills we would add lot more bulls so we make sure the cows got with calf, just remember that it takes a buck for a doe to have a fawn
 
If the few buck we have take longer to get around to all the doe, they end up having the fawn much later which causes the fawn to be much smaller and not as fat heading into its first winter, thus low survival rate. More bucks would help solve this problem.
 
I can honestly say when I started hunting deer in the 50's, on the Beaver, I'll bet their was 30 to 40 bucks to 100 does, and at least 30,000 plus deer on the Beaver, when they went to their winter range we would have any where from 300 to 400 deer in our fields, for a couple of days then they would move on, what Jones of the DWR got to do is let the buck herd grow, and you will have enough bucks to breed the does, when we put our cow in the hills we would add lot more bulls so we make sure the cows got with calf, just remember that it takes a buck for a doe to have a fawn
I guarantee there is enough bucks to breed the does on GS units, that’s not the problem. The problem is the doe’s have no food to eat due to the habitat dying of drought conditions. Once again, shutting a unit down is not going to rebound deer herds. I haven’t looked at harvest success recently, and it really doesn’t matter even if I did since DWR has no idea of actual harvest success until they make it mandatory for all hunters to report success. Point being, killing 20% of the bucks on a given unit is not going to bring deer herds back to what they were in the 50s 60s or 90s for that matter. We need some help from Mother Nature to solve this problem.
 
Other than the radio collar data shows the does are getting bred just fine. But maybe that data isn't correct either?

The fawns and yearling deer are not surviving. Lets try and fix that problem.

The drought is the biggest limiting factor at the moment. Too bad all the pissing and moaning and crying can't fix that.

At what point do we just cut all the tags and still watch the herds decline?

If I believed that over hunting was the problem I'd be the first to quit.
 
Mandatory reporting is fine and should be easy enough to do. I personally don't think it is going to change a thing. But maybe less people will doubt the results.
 
On the Beaver in dog valley their is lots of deer feed and water, but no deer to eat it, the little buck don't have a chance to grow up, we have to stop killing the little bucks and does, and cut down the hunting days, I would love to see every hunter have a tag
 
On the Beaver in dog valley their is lots of deer feed and water, but no deer to eat it, the little buck don't have a chance to grow up, we have to stop killing the little bucks and does, and cut down the hunting days, I would love to see every hunter have a tag
Ok 1 day seasons. 4points only. No cheaters allowed. Get er done.
 
we need a 2 year waiting period for successful hunters on General deer units.
Exactly what would that accomplish? Now instead of 2-4+ years it takes 4-6+ to draw a general license?

This would help for 2 years, and then we are in the exact same spot we was in before. Waiting periods are stupid.
 
Exactly what would that accomplish? Now instead of 2-4+ years it takes 4-6+ to draw a general license?

This would help for 2 years, and then we are in the exact same spot we was in before. Waiting periods are stupid.
It would help with the number of young buck being killed. If you know there would be a 2 year waiting period if you shoot a 2 point it would deter a few people shooting it.
And, like i've mentioned before, 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the deer. So, Taking the 10% out of the game for a couple years would make it so less deer are killed. especially the bigger bucks.
Also, no waiting period for youth hunters.

People ***** about wanting older age class deer but no one is willing to step up to the plate.

Trust me, I want to hunt every year and I could kill a buck every year. There are 100k people just like me too, but that isn't sustainable in todays circumstances.
 
Most units are taking min of 2 points or more to draw anyway. Most are on a waiting period but just not an implemented waiting period
If you knew that you would get a 2 year waiting period if you shot a 2 point would you shoot it? what about a 3 point or a 18" 4 point?
This would deter some people from shooting the small deer.
 
It would help with the number of young buck being killed. If you know there would be a 2 year waiting period if you shoot a 2 point it would deter a few people shooting it.
And, like i've mentioned before, 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the deer. So, Taking the 10% out of the game for a couple years would make it so less deer are killed. especially the bigger bucks.
Also, no waiting period for youth hunters.

People ***** about wanting older age class deer but no one is willing to step up to the plate.

Trust me, I want to hunt every year and I could kill a buck every year. There are 100k people just like me too, but that isn't sustainable in todays circumstances.

They already wait years, and they still shoot two points. Another two years isn't going to stop them.

The people shooting bigger bucks already wait years to get tags, 2 more years won't change anything.

A 2 year wait does nothing but add 2 more years between tags. The dwr will still give the same amount of tags, the same deer will be killed every year, the only thing you did was make it even longer between tags.

If everyone was getting tags every year your idea might have some merit, but as it is right now it wouldn't do anything.

And besides that with the current management practices of the dwr using buck to doe ratio. If more bucks lived they would just increase tags until they got the level down. They don't care if it's 15-18 2 points or 4points as long as there are 15-18 of them per 100 does.
 
If the few buck we have take longer to get around to all the doe, they end up having the fawn much later which causes the fawn to be much smaller and not as fat heading into its first winter, thus low survival rate. More bucks would help solve this problem.
Does dictate when they are on cycle, not bucks.
 
I disagree! Shutting down a unit doesn’t grow a deer herd. There are other issues besides hunting that causes the decline in herds. Habitat, predators, vehicle collision, the list goes on and on. Saving a few bucks in a unit will not grow deer numbers. We need does to have fawns that make it past their 1st year to grow a herd.

Shutting down a unit doesn't grow a deer herd. What it does is keep from shrinking that deer herd. Every deer not shot is the same as adding a deer post season.
 
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