Ranchers Suing NMDGF

OCHO

Active Member
Messages
315
And thus I wish the fishing was better here... sad as most of this info is true and likely nothing will change. We can have all the meetings we want but it’s just a formality. Check the box and move on as the decisions have already been made. How many habitat improvement tag cost improve with little actual improvement! Politics know no bounds unfortunately. Money makes the goal posts move. Not changing the game just the rules.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
And thus I wish the fishing was better here... sad as most of this info is true and likely nothing will change. We can have all the meetings we want but it’s just a formality. Check the box and move on as the decisions have already been made. How many habitat improvement tag cost improve with little actual improvement! Politics know no bounds unfortunately. Money makes the goal posts move. Not changing the game just the rules.
EXACTLY!!! We put in the money every year to have improvements made. But, most are made for cattle and things like that. I have seen nothing really in Southern New Mexico done for habitat improvement. Maybe I am wrong, but I see no improvements in any of the units I hunt. More water holes added in the lowlands where the cattle are, but that is about it.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,748
mossback50cal,

I can think of 4 water tanks in Southern NM that fence out cattle that were funded by sportsmans dollars. The biggest mistakes NM makes is giving out "unit wide" tags to landowners and 10% outfitter welfare tags in the draw. From what I've seen, AZ does a much better job of equally managing hunting opportunity for all hunters.
 

Vinootz

Member
Messages
9
No I’m pretty sure my narrative is accurate! Actually hunted this private ranch a couple times over the past years. When I saw they were booking hunters every consecutive week starting October 1st with the management rifle tags, but also offered unit wide bull tags in 17, I scratched my head!!!!! I’m sure unit 17 isn’t the only unit doing this. Or else there is something shady going on!!!
Shady? I suppose so. If state politicians are all of a sudden driving new cars, (or other perks), shady could be accurate-lol.
 
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Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
3,687
l have seen areas in national forest that are separated by fence, one side grazed, the other not. The grazed side is completely barren, with no grass or small vegetation. Ungrazed side is grown up. That is why I say the grazing can hurt the land.
That’s what fire suppression looks like. Cattle absolutely suppress wildfires. And are especially useful where “mechanical clearing” isn’t possible - like 95% of the NF.

But I still hate cows.
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
3,687
I tried to show this guy the GPS with OnX showing the road and land was public but he said he didn't care.
I feel compelled to post this every time I see someone rely on OnX to determine their right to trespass. I believe this is the 5th time here. :(

OnX is a wonderful product, but it has a problem with downloading deed restrictions from your county courthouse.

This is the circumstances on my private property. And I have stood toe to toe while some a-hole tried to ‘splain to me his right to be on my private property because OnX said so.

Fortunately our local law enforcement have a low tolerance for trespassers.

Respect private property. And don’t throw your trash out.:mad:
 

monsterMullet

Active Member
Messages
113
I feel compelled to post this every time I see someone rely on OnX to determine their right to trespass. I believe this is the 5th time here. :(

OnX is a wonderful product, but it has a problem with downloading deed restrictions from your county courthouse.

This is the circumstances on my private property. And I have stood toe to toe while some a-hole tried to ‘splain to me his right to be on my private property because OnX said so.

Fortunately our local law enforcement have a low tolerance for trespassers.

Respect private property. And don’t throw your trash out.:mad:
I feel compelled to ask, is your land in NM unit 21?
 

Dumdum

Member
Messages
10
I feel compelled to post this every time I see someone rely on OnX to determine their right to trespass. I believe this is the 5th time here. :(

OnX is a wonderful product, but it has a problem with downloading deed restrictions from your county courthouse.

This is the circumstances on my private property. And I have stood toe to toe while some a-hole tried to ‘splain to me his right to be on my private property because OnX said so.

Fortunately our local law enforcement have a low tolerance for trespassers.

Respect private property. And don’t throw your trash out.:mad:

I agree.

Our deed's metes and bounds description recorded at the county clerk and recorder office is accurate and correct, but the county assessor plat/plot map of my property is way way messed up.

And it is our messed up assessor plat/plot map that shows up on OnX.

I make sure to warn guys planning to hunt here about this.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,748
How far off is OnX on your property? I've used OnX for years and have never seen a major discrepancy. Including areas I have hunted for 20 or 30 years and know the landowners and property lines. Looking at OnX I sometimes I can tell that it may be off by a 10 yards or so. I've seen landowner fences off by more than 10 yards more than I've seen OnX off. The are a bunch of fences across all Western states that are way off the property line.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,748
bluehair and DumDum,

Why don't you contact OnX directly so they can fix it if they have your property line wrong?
 

Dumdum

Member
Messages
10
How far off is OnX on your property? I've used OnX for years and have never seen a major discrepancy. Including areas I have hunted for 20 or 30 years and know the landowners and property lines. Looking at OnX I sometimes I can tell that it may be off by a 10 yards or so. I've seen landowner fences off by more than 10 yards more than I've seen OnX off. The are a bunch of fences across all Western states that are way off the property line.
Pretty far off. The overall shape doesn’t come close, every single building we have is shown belonging to our neighbors, our Highway frontage doesn’t exist according to The plat/plot used by OnX. Other then that pretty accurate (sarc).
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
I feel compelled to post this every time I see someone rely on OnX to determine their right to trespass. I believe this is the 5th time here. :(

OnX is a wonderful product, but it has a problem with downloading deed restrictions from your county courthouse.

This is the circumstances on my private property. And I have stood toe to toe while some a-hole tried to ‘splain to me his right to be on my private property because OnX said so.

Fortunately our local law enforcement have a low tolerance for trespassers.

Respect private property. And don’t throw your trash out.:mad:
No one said I relied on Onx for right to trespass. However, OnX GUARANTEES that their state and federal lands are correct. Maybe it doesn't show the correct name on private land, but I have never relied on it for that. OnX does not tell you which private properties you can hunt. It tells you what is private and what is public. That is what they guarantee. But hey, you might be one of the people we are talking about....... Think you own everything. But you could not. Could be a great person that is sick of bad people. And that is understandable. There are a lot of bad people in this state, and we all know that. But, what we are discussing here has nothing to do with what you are saying.
 

Dumdum

Member
Messages
10
bluehair and DumDum,

Why don't you contact OnX directly so they can fix it if they have your property line wrong?
Hasn’t been much of a problem so far.
And not to worry, the problem is ONLY with the assessors graphical plat/plot ... the actual annual tax assessment and billing is 100% correct. They don’t miss a thing.
 

Booner

Member
Messages
58
I feel compelled to post this every time I see someone rely on OnX to determine their right to trespass. I believe this is the 5th time here. :(

OnX is a wonderful product, but it has a problem with downloading deed restrictions from your county courthouse.

This is the circumstances on my private property. And I have stood toe to toe while some a-hole tried to ‘splain to me his right to be on my private property because OnX said so.

Fortunately our local law enforcement have a low tolerance for trespassers.

Respect private property. And don’t throw your trash out.:mad:
What do the deed restrictions prohibit? If it is showing up on OnX as private it doesn’t really matter, it is private. Are you saying OnX shows it as public but it is privy?
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,748
Pretty far off. The overall shape doesn’t come close, every single building we have is shown belonging to our neighbors, our Highway frontage doesn’t exist according to The plat/plot used by OnX. Other then that pretty accurate (sarc).

The most important thing for OnX to show is private vs public. Does it show part of your property as public land?

From what I've seen OnX does an acceptable job of updating new property owners the last couple of years. OnX doesn't do a great job of exact lines between different private property lines but that is a low priority for most of us. They don't even have my property line exactly correct but I don't care.
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
3,687
Let me make my point more clearly. I’m just saying that I don’t think I would rely on OnX as the basis of a scuffle with a landowner.

On my property, the property lines are amazingly accurate. It’s the access easement (road I/we built) for the adjoining landowners that shows as a public road. That’s incorrect. Same error for the irrigation canal easement. Etc.

I have and use OnX. But beware.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,748
I've only used OnX in a disagreement with a rancher one time about 8 years ago in Idaho. I also have a USGS BLM map of the area and knew I was on public land. I've hunted the area since I was a kid and my dad hunted the area and worked for the forest service in that area way back in the 70's. I was more than a mile from any private land. As soon as he realized that I knew he was bluffing, he backed off. He didn't seem to like hunters and didn't seem to like the idea of guys shooting any deer in the area. We actually had a nice conversation for about 20-30 minutes and left on good terms. My grandfather use to run cattle in that area and was well thought of by about everyone in the area so that also helped.

The best thing to do in some of those uncomfortable situations is to not escalate them even when the other guy is in the wrong. A minority of people in every walk of life really do mess it up for the rest of the people who are mostly good decent and law abiding citizens.

I'll continue to use OnX as a tool to help me but agree that you shouldn't rely on OnX 100%. I've used OnX in Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, NM and Arizona and have yet to see OnX wrong on public vs private land.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
Let me make my point more clearly. I’m just saying that I don’t think I would rely on OnX as the basis of a scuffle with a landowner.

On my property, the property lines are amazingly accurate. It’s the access easement (road I/we built) for the adjoining landowners that shows as a public road. That’s incorrect. Same error for the irrigation canal easement. Etc.

I have and use OnX. But beware.
Same here. Only used it the one time. And I knew that was BLM as well. Thought it would save a lot of trouble. But rancher thought since he paid to graze his cattle, he controlled the land. Which is far from the truth. The only thing I have seen OnX wrong on was name of landowner. And that was on my land. It was updated, and showed me then. Everything else has matched maps completely.
 

Sako300rum

Active Member
Messages
169
The Ranchers and Landowners I have hunted with in the past all hated ONX. Geez I wonder why!!!!!! Just another thing to complain about!! I personally love it and think it’s accurate.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
The Ranchers and Landowners I have hunted with in the past all hated ONX. Geez I wonder why!!!!!! Just another thing to complain about!! I personally love it and think it’s accurate.
Because you can have your location and a map in your pocket at all times. Shows your exact location according to the map. Leaves the argument one sided. The problem is, I understand why some of them are upset. There are people in this state that trash everything they come in contact with. If that were prosecuted and taken care of properly, I think a lot less landowners would have problems with people hunting their lands. I understand that side of it, the one I dont is what I have mentioned. Cattle grazers who think they can lock gates into public land. Or, the ones who agree to have their land open, only to close it off and reap the benefits. Those are the one's that piss me off.
 

OCHO

Active Member
Messages
315
I feel compelled to post this every time I see someone rely on OnX to determine their right to trespass. I believe this is the 5th time here. :(

OnX is a wonderful product, but it has a problem with downloading deed restrictions from your county courthouse.

This is the circumstances on my private property. And I have stood toe to toe while some a-hole tried to ‘splain to me his right to be on my private property because OnX said so.

Fortunately our local law enforcement have a low tolerance for trespassers.

Respect private property. And don’t throw your trash out.:mad:


By that same token people also can thank several of the fellow private land owners for marking public private all the same. It’s a two way street.

Too bad the communication is so terrible amongst hunters and Lo for the most part. And likely why it will never be a mended situation.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
By that same token people also can thank several of the fellow private land owners for marking public private all the same. It’s a two way street.

Too bad the communication is so terrible amongst hunters and Lo for the most part. And likely why it will never be a mended situation.
They are getting something in return for making their land "public". Which most do not anyways. Keep it closed off and nothing is done about it. There are tons of unit wide ranches, that by law, have to open up to the public. I guarantee you can find out more than half do not. But, they get the hundreds of thousands of dollars for their tags either way. I have experience with it. A "unit wide" ranch in a unit, supposed to be open, locked tighter than fort knox. Call the game department and nothing is ever done about it. The same with lo's blocking public roads because they have cattle on it. Our game department is just as corrupt as any. Things like these prove it. If they actually enforced the laws, we would have no complaints. Just erks me knowing these ranches(some of them) are raking in a sh$t ton of money on tags, but do not fulfill their end.
 

Sako300rum

Active Member
Messages
169
Amen Mossback! But, I bet the ones suing are the ones wanting more tags !!!!!! It’s all about money and politics! The fish and game or commission and the landowner,rancher, outfitter are all guilty!
 

monsterMullet

Active Member
Messages
113
I wonder if ted's vermejo ranch is giving kick backs to the game commission to get all those tags. They are making millions every year off the tags the state is giving them. It's seems like a scam.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
I wonder if ted's vermejo ranch is giving kick backs to the game commission to get all those tags. They are making millions every year off the tags the state is giving them. It's seems like a scam.
sadly it does seem like a scam. The people getting screwed are the public and the ranchers who actually follow the laws.
 

tayhot

Active Member
Messages
346
I can’t speak for every landowner who gets tags, but of the several that I know who receive more than 20+ tags, none of them sell or hunt all the tags they are allotted. Those tags essentially go to waste. Especially in units where quality is important.

Do you guys hating on ranchers and LOs have any idea what would happen to the herds if the E Tag program didn’t exist? How many elk were spared from this years drought thanks to the water/farms on private property? How many yearlings were able to suck on their mommas thanks to landowners?
 

Booner

Member
Messages
58
They are getting something in return for making their land "public". Which most do not anyways. Keep it closed off and nothing is done about it. There are tons of unit wide ranches, that by law, have to open up to the public. I guarantee you can find out more than half do not. But, they get the hundreds of thousands of dollars for their tags either way. I have experience with it. A "unit wide" ranch in a unit, supposed to be open, locked tighter than fort knox. Call the game department and nothing is ever done about it. The same with lo's blocking public roads because they have cattle on it. Our game department is just as corrupt as any. Things like these prove it. If they actually enforced the laws, we would have no complaints. Just erks me knowing these ranches(some of them) are raking in a sh$t ton of money on tags, but do not fulfill their end.
A UW ranch can absolutely have a locked gate, there is nothing in the regs saying you get vehicular access. You 100% have the right to hop that fence and walk in.
“I guarantee you can find out more than half do not.”…what a bunch of BS. Unless someone comes up to you and tells you to get off the ranch you are not being denied access. If that occurs film it and turn them in. That simple.
 

ELKMAN

Active Member
Messages
722
Tayhot
That right there is part of the problem in many areas. Ranchers not using their cow tags etc. Then G @ F will hammer the public lands to reach their management goals, and you can guess what happens? More elk on the other side of the fence. I have seen people advocating. If a landowner does not use a cow tag,they lose a bull tag.
 

monsterMullet

Active Member
Messages
113
A UW ranch can absolutely have a locked gate, there is nothing in the regs saying you get vehicular access. You 100% have the right to hop that fence and walk in.
“I guarantee you can find out more than half do not.”…what a bunch of BS. Unless someone comes up to you and tells you to get off the ranch you are not being denied access. If that occurs film it and turn them in. That simple.
I thought they were obligated to give you the same access they give to the people they sell tags to or anyone that hunts that land? So if they open that gate for their hunters they have to have it open to everyone (same access). I don't think it's right when they have locked gates and No Trespassing and No Hunting on the gate and you say they are doing their part of the deal. Maybe they should have a clause on the signs that say "unless you are a legal hunter."
 

Booner

Member
Messages
58
I thought they were obligated to give you the same access they give to the people they sell tags to or anyone that hunts that land? So if they open that gate for their hunters they have to have it open to everyone (same access). I don't think it's right when they have locked gates and No Trespassing and No Hunting on the gate and you say they are doing their part of the deal. Maybe they should have a clause on the signs that say "unless you are a legal hunter."
They do have to provide the same access. If the gate is open you can drive in and push all the elk out of there like everyone else. If it is locked you have to walk and probably won’t push them too far. I prefer the locked gates, keeps out the folks who can’t read a map and would road hunt anyways. I asked G&F about the No Hunting signs too, they said disregard them because it is only for elk and they couldn’t expect a landowner to take signs down and out them up again numerous times throughout the year. There is a clause, in the regs book page 26 paragraph D.
 

monsterMullet

Active Member
Messages
113
They do have to provide the same access. If the gate is open you can drive in and push all the elk out of there like everyone else. If it is locked you have to walk and probably won’t push them too far. I prefer the locked gates, keeps out the folks who can’t read a map and would road hunt anyways. I asked G&F about the No Hunting signs too, they said disregard them because it is only for elk and they couldn’t expect a landowner to take signs down and out them up again numerous times throughout the year. There is a clause, in the regs book page 26 paragraph
Maybe instead of taking the signs up and down just put an exception on the sign for elk hunting and state the access given to elk hunters.
I just looked at the proclamation and there is no section D on page 26.

It is a little hard to tell my kids who are learning the law and about property rights just to ignore the "no hunting" and "no trespassing" signs. In their minds we would just be trespassing and undoing all the stuff the G&F taught them in "Hunters Ed"
 

Booner

Member
Messages
58
Maybe instead of taking the signs up and down just put an exception on the sign for elk hunting and state the access given to elk hunters.
I just looked at the proclamation and there is no section D on page 26.

It is a little hard to tell my kids who are learning the law and about property rights just to ignore the "no hunting" and "no trespassing" signs. In their minds we would just be trespassing and undoing all the stuff the G&F taught them in "Hunters Ed"
6B6C3013-8C58-488C-8C9F-F4D490B3C54A.jpeg
 

Booner

Member
Messages
58
I was looking at page 23, my bad.
So they need to change the regs to make the landowner post that they receive compensation for allowing public access and this problem will go away. If they are unwilling to post this all tags go away.
Bring it up at a commission meeting. Best of luck on your crusade.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
They do have to provide the same access. If the gate is open you can drive in and push all the elk out of there like everyone else. If it is locked you have to walk and probably won’t push them too far. I prefer the locked gates, keeps out the folks who can’t read a map and would road hunt anyways. I asked G&F about the No Hunting signs too, they said disregard them because it is only for elk and they couldn’t expect a landowner to take signs down and out them up again numerous times throughout the year. There is a clause, in the regs book page 26 paragraph D.
So when you see their hunters camped on their land, with their campers set up, but we cant drive on it? That is the same access? People like you are the reason hunting is going down the drain. Making excuses for ranchers who are clearly breaking the law. Go find ranchers that actually follow the law. It is easy to look up ranch info and eplus information now. I have done it directly at the ranches, screen shotted the information and took pictures of locked gates with campers on it, and reported them to game and fish years ago. Nothing was done even years later. Wish I still had all the pictures and stuff so I could show you. Landowners run it. You can say they dont all you want, but they do. When they clearly break the law, reap the benefits, and people like you protect them. Like I said, there are some good ones, but most are not. If they dont want people on their land, dont take the tags that they get. And mark up so high that only rich can hunt it. But hey, THATS NOT RUINING OUR SPORT.

***and I have been chased off of land that was public by ranchers. Have had them threaten me for being on public land. Not second hand stories, so do not tell me they dont do that either. Have had sheriffs go out, but does anything happen to the rancher? NO NOTHING. So, even thought they are blatantly breaking the law, nothing gets done.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
And please tell me, when a lot of the ranches start out in the low lands where I hunt, with the locked gates at the main roads, ten miles from forest and elk, with it all being forest land behind theirs, exactly how to access it? There are a lot of roads that are forest access roads in the area I hunt that are supposed to be open, according to game and fish, but are locked during hunting season. Why? Because they think they control everything, and are allowed to get away with it. Why? Because our state is as corrupt as any. But hey, keep living your dream world.....
 

monsterMullet

Active Member
Messages
113
And please tell me, when a lot of the ranches start out in the low lands where I hunt, with the locked gates at the main roads, ten miles from forest and elk, with it all being forest land behind theirs, exactly how to access it? There are a lot of roads that are forest access roads in the area I hunt that are supposed to be open, according to game and fish, but are locked during hunting season. Why? Because they think they control everything, and are allowed to get away with it. Why? Because our state is as corrupt as any. But hey, keep living your dream world.....
I think this state is more corrupt that most but hey, at least I have some tags this year! Already filled one. Haven't been drawn in a while.
 

monsterMullet

Active Member
Messages
113
It is. I did not draw a thing this year. Is that your deer in your profile pic?
Yes, killed Thursday morning. Ate the tenderloins and they were delicious, stuffed them with mushrooms, onions, and gorgonzola cheese. My first dear ever. Shot it then left for about 45 minutes. That's why it looks a little bloated.
We go back for bull elk at the end of October. Hopefully get my first elk.
 

Booner

Member
Messages
58
So when you see their hunters camped on their land, with their campers set up, but we cant drive on it? That is the same access? People like you are the reason hunting is going down the drain. Making excuses for ranchers who are clearly breaking the law. Go find ranchers that actually follow the law. It is easy to look up ranch info and eplus information now. I have done it directly at the ranches, screen shotted the information and took pictures of locked gates with campers on it, and reported them to game and fish years ago. Nothing was done even years later. Wish I still had all the pictures and stuff so I could show you. Landowners run it. You can say they dont all you want, but they do. When they clearly break the law, reap the benefits, and people like you protect them. Like I said, there are some good ones, but most are not. If they dont want people on their land, dont take the tags that they get. And mark up so high that only rich can hunt it. But hey, THATS NOT RUINING OUR SPORT.

***and I have been chased off of land that was public by ranchers. Have had them threaten me for being on public land. Not second hand stories, so do not tell me they dont do that either. Have had sheriffs go out, but does anything happen to the rancher? NO NOTHING. So, even thought they are blatantly breaking the law, nothing gets done.
People like me are the reason hunting is going down the drain…please. How do you figure? I just know the rules and won’t tolerate BS from a landowner and won’t sympathize with a hunter who can’t read the regs either. I have never defended landowners being in the wrong, and never would. Are there bad ones out there, hell yes, but if you know you are in the right you have nothing to worry about. Tell them you have video and are turning them in and you will go to the ends of the earth to have their ranch revoked from EPLUS if you have PROOF they are in violation of statutes. Same as you would if you caught someone poaching, there is no difference. Ease up on the virtue signaling.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
People like me are the reason hunting is going down the drain…please. How do you figure? I just know the rules and won’t tolerate BS from a landowner and won’t sympathize with a hunter who can’t read the regs either. I have never defended landowners being in the wrong, and never would. Are there bad ones out there, hell yes, but if you know you are in the right you have nothing to worry about. Tell them you have video and are turning them in and you will go to the ends of the earth to have their ranch revoked from EPLUS if you have PROOF they are in violation of statutes. Same as you would if you caught someone poaching, there is no difference. Ease up on the virtue signaling.
It sure doesn't seem like you are fighting with someone who doesn't know how to read the regs.... Instead of reading my posts, you simply want to argue. The whole difference is, the Department of Game and Fish has done absolutely NOTHING in my experience. Just say they will look into it. And, after being harassed by a rancher on public land, and a sheriff coming out and doing absolutely NOTHING to him, I would say my viewpoint is correct. I have turned MULTIPLE ranches in in the area I hunt, and they still get tags and still have their land locked up. Plus all of the land behind them, which has a forest service road, easement of the forest service, going into it. But, do you think anything is done?! HELL NO. I am not gonna argue just to argue with you, this is one of the reasons I stopped coming on this site. And YES, people like you are ruing hunting. Instead of siding with fellow hunters who are giving their experience, you argue, and say we do not know how to read regulations.... They are causing a divide between sportsman and woman that will be the final nail in the coffin for hunting. The bad definitely outweigh the good in this situation, and it isn't even close. It isn't the small ranches doing this, it is the big, well off ranches. It is happening in every part of the state.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
It was in 36. We did european mounts ourselves and they came out pretty good. Right after we took the velvet off I found a thread on how to preserve the velvet. Opps. Thanks though.
Awesome! Ya I did the same with deer I killed when I was younger. Now wish they still had the velvet on them. To me, it looks nicer. I love deer in velvet, elk not so much. I bet 36 was green as heck this year.
 

monsterMullet

Active Member
Messages
113
Awesome! Ya I did the same with deer I killed when I was younger. Now wish they still had the velvet on them. To me, it looks nicer. I love deer in velvet, elk not so much. I bet 36 was green as heck this year.
36 was the most lush green I have every seen it. We go back at the end of Oct. for rifle bull so hopefully get my first elk this year too.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
36 was the most lush green I have every seen it. We go back at the end of Oct. for rifle bull so hopefully get my first elk this year too.
Heck ya. I know someone who will be up in 34 starting in a couple days, for the second bow hunt. Good luck on your elk tag! I hope you shoot a big one!
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
They do eat plants, but there is not enough cows to prevent fires. Unless! We bread enough cows to completely eat all the grass in the forest! That's a great idea, I'm in!
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
Full circle to breed trillions of cows, which most won't graze in the steep canyons that fires occur in around here mostly. Then, we can release goats toe at what they don't! Gosh, I should just be a scientist!
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
3,687
If the fuel gets eaten, the fire risk is reduced. Don’t believe me? Read what your homeowners insurance company recommends if you own property in a fire prone area.

I don’t know how to explain it any better. It’s not really even science, more like landscaping. But you go ahead with the hyperbole if you think it helps.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
The point is, it takes more than grazing. Is it just grass burning? No, it isn't. Cattle do not graze enough of the fuel. But, keep on with your hyperbole if you think it helps... Fires are a natural occurrence, have been forever. Nature's way of replacing old with new. If grazing could stop that, we would already be doing it. Fires need to happen. If they are in a remote area, we should allow them to burn. We have the belief that we need to stop every fire from burning, which does not allow the forest to rejuvenate. But, that is another subject. Have you ever seen a fire where ranchers graze? I guarantee you have. Grazing does not prevent forest fires, and if you believe that, you have fallen off your rocker.
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
3,687
My comment was only directed to whether livestock provided fire suppression, not whether they should or shouldn’t be suppressed.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
888
Fire suppression for small area maybe. But not widespread. There are so many elk in the gila, so why don't they prevent fires? Maybe, because the amount of animals needed would be too many to sustain in an environment. Enough animals to actually get fire suppression would be enough animals to eat themselves into starvation. There aren't enough cattle to suppress a fire in any given area. That is why I laugh at that argument, because it is not physical reality. It was an invalid argument in the beginning, and is even more invalid now.
 

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