Reduce Bull Elk tags in AZ

Guerrero126

Guerrero126

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chng.it

This campaign needs you now

Making Arizona's Elk hunts Great Again.
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As a Hunting Community, we need to all come together and make a change. We need to limit the amount of tags being issued but raise the price per each tag so the AZGFD can make the same revenue. For example Unit 8 used to produce some of the greatest quality elk there was known to man. Back in 90's when only 200 tags were being issued. Please sign the petition above if y’all agree, we need to return Arizona back to its original roots.
 
Bluehair said:
There are more elk spread over a wider range in AZ than there ever has been before. What exactly is the problem?
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I disagree. As someone who first started hunting AZ elk in 1983, I say the herd was at is all time highest from about 1993 to 2007. Been a steady decline ever since from what I have seen. They issue too many cow tags as far as I am concerned. Stop killing so many of the baby makers and you will see and increase in cows and bulls. The camera ban may have an impact but minimal at best.
 
Yeah, I’ve been bumping around AZ elk country for a few years too. Hell, I remember when Jay Elmer killed a 383 bull and started the whole thing. I also remember when we didn’t have elk standing at the junkyard at McGuireville, way before they killed any 400 bulls in 19. And way before there were bulls in the yards in Flag and Show Low. Heck, I even saw a dead bull on I-40 at Lithodendrun wash Just last year. Anyway, you get my point.

You could make a strong case that AZ has more elk than the range can support (water). We’ve all seen the water trucks. And the elk on the cliffs in the Grand Canyon.

I’m not trying to argue that there shouldn’t be a 350 bull behind every tree, but just trying to point out that the hardest thing about hunting elk in Az is getting drawn. You guys have it pretty good.

And I agree about killing cows.
 
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Bluehair said:
There are more elk spread over a wider range in AZ than there ever has been before. What exactly is the problem?
Click to expand...
The problem is the amount of tags being issued, why not give residents a chance to kill the bulls of the same quality compared to 30 years ago. 30 years ago there were 200 tags in unit 8 “for example” I’m not saying Arizona has a poor elk hunting. Arizona probably has the best Bull Elk hunting, what I’m trying to say, why not limit the tags being issued so we Arizona can once again produce quality bull elk. Typically on an average northern Arizona Bull Hunt, you have more traffic on forest roads then you do the interstate. Also it is impossible to be in any remote country in any unit without running into multiple hunters. The experience has been diluted. Reason be, there are to many people, vehicles, campsites, and killing off younger bulls. Never allowing bulls to grow into maturity.
 
I’m not really trying to argue, just a reality check. The range is probably at or near capacity, especially when they now have to compete with feral horses in many places. And the department has to finance the whole circus, so they need hunters. I reckon there are far more who want to draw a tag than want to cut numbers.

I’m grateful for having had the opportunity to be on a couple of rut hunts around the state. I think you guys are living in the good old days. :)
 
huntazido said:
I disagree. As someone who first started hunting AZ elk in 1983, I say the herd was at is all time highest from about 1993 to 2007. Been a steady decline ever since from what I have seen. They issue too many cow tags as far as I am concerned. Stop killing so many of the baby makers and you will see and increase in cows and bulls. The camera ban may have an impact but minimal at best.
Click to expand...
Agreed, besides limiting the cow Elk. Limiting the Bull Elk tags would help tremendously. There are way to many people in the woods,
 
I would appreciate tag numbers cut. It's getting ridiculous

2021:

5BN 24 early rifle tags
5B 639 late rifle tags
5BN 193 rifle cow tags oct
5BS 273 rifle cow tags oct
5BN 7 Hopi Cow tags
5BS & 6A 500 youth rifle cow tags
5BN 50 cow tags, limited app area
5BN 144 Archery bull rut
5BS. 200 Archery bull rut
5BN 6 Hopi Archery bull tags
5BN 29 late archery bull tags
5BS 30 late archery bull tags
5BN 1 Hopi late archery bull tag
5BN 24 archery cow tags rut
5BS 50 archery cow tags rut
5BN 1 Hopi archery cow rut
 
Guerrero126 said:
chng.it

This campaign needs you now

Making Arizona's Elk hunts Great Again.
chng.it chng.it
As a Hunting Community, we need to all come together and make a change. We need to limit the amount of tags being issued but raise the price per each tag so the AZGFD can make the same revenue. For example Unit 8 used to produce some of the greatest quality elk there was known to man. Back in 90's when only 200 tags were being issued. Please sign the petition above if y’all agree, we need to return Arizona back to its original roots.
Click to expand...
This is a double edge sword.. The same people bitching about there are too many elk tags now were the same people 10 years ago bitching that they can never get a tag!!! We can't have it both ways.. We can limit the tag numbers and also get drawn every year. What would you rather do? Get drawn more often and be able to enjoy the hunt or not get drawn as often and maybe get a chance to kill a bigger one? The last time this subject was brought up the majority of the public wanted more opportunity vs quality. I
 
HullinPhx said:
This is a double edge sword.. The same people bitching about there are too many elk tags now were the same people 10 years ago bitching that they can never get a tag!!! We can't have it both ways.. We can limit the tag numbers and also get drawn every year. What would you rather do? Get drawn more often and be able to enjoy the hunt or not get drawn as often and maybe get a chance to kill a bigger one? The last time this subject was brought up the majority of the public wanted more opportunity vs quality. I
Click to expand...
We understand that a-lot of people want quantity versus quality. Us Hunters who have been hunting for several decades have gotten the quantity part out of our system. We dont have the want/need to kill Elk every year. We want to get drawn and be able to work towards a great Bull Elk. We've been there done that and we cant necessarily go back for more, whats there thats worth going back besides young non matured bulls that are being killed every day during the hunt.
 
CouesFanatic said:
I would appreciate tag numbers cut. It's getting ridiculous

2021:

5BN 24 early rifle tags
5B 639 late rifle tags
5BN 193 rifle cow tags oct
5BS 273 rifle cow tags oct
5BN 7 Hopi Cow tags
5BS & 6A 500 youth rifle cow tags
5BN 50 cow tags, limited app area
5BN 144 Archery bull rut
5BS. 200 Archery bull rut
5BN 6 Hopi Archery bull tags
5BN 29 late archery bull tags
5BS 30 late archery bull tags
5BN 1 Hopi late archery bull tag
5BN 24 archery cow tags rut
5BS 50 archery cow tags rut
5BN 1 Hopi archery cow rut
Click to expand...
Its not only 5B North, its every unit in Arizona. We need to cut them down ASAP, the herd is decreasing dramatically. Its also decreasing in quality.
 
l signed the petition. I also think that there are too many tags issued in a lot of units. You might put this petition on some other hunting forums also to spread the word.
 
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The number of hunters observed in the woods is more of a social issue, not a biological one. For the latter, only the herd numbers and success rates of those hunters are iimportant. Until the drought ends, it's unlikely permits will see any major reductions.
 
Guerrero126 said:
We understand that a-lot of people want quantity versus quality. Us Hunters who have been hunting for several decades have gotten the quantity part out of our system. We dont have the want/need to kill Elk every year. We want to get drawn and be able to work towards a great Bull Elk. We've been there done that and we cant necessarily go back for more, whats there thats worth going back besides young non matured bulls that are being killed every day during the hunt.
Click to expand...
What about the hunters who have been elk hunting once? My little brother has killed 1 cow. He will have to wait 3-4 years at least to be guaranteed another cow tag at this current rate. I personally have killed a lot of elk, and am okay with not hunting as often. But how will hunting continue if these young kids hunt elk 2-3 times in there life? They need quantity, not necessarily quality, to get hooked. I believe in order to keep the sport alive, you may have to forgo quality in order to give the new generation quantity.

I think AZ has a decent plan. For example, 6A, 8 gives out tags for quantity. 9 and 10 give out tags for quality. I’ve seen 3 giants in the past 2 years in AZ. The quality is still here.
 
I like the idea of some units being managed for quality and some for quantity like we are currently doing. That being said, we are overhunting all of the units. It needs cut back. I wish they would manage Coues units like this as well
 
ruger1022 said:
What about the hunters who have been elk hunting once? My little brother has killed 1 cow. He will have to wait 3-4 years at least to be guaranteed another cow tag at this current rate. I personally have killed a lot of elk, and am okay with not hunting as often. But how will hunting continue if these young kids hunt elk 2-3 times in there life? They need quantity, not necessarily quality, to get hooked. I believe in order to keep the sport alive, you may have to forgo quality in order to give the new generation quantity.

I think AZ has a decent plan. For example, 6A, 8 gives out tags for quantity. 9 and 10 give out tags for quality. I’ve seen 3 giants in the past 2 years in AZ. The quality is still here.
Click to expand...
Cow hunts are much different than Bull hunts in my opinion. Bull elk are sought after by many. Killing a Bull elk shouldn't feel anything like killing a cow. Anyways, I think we should cut down the amount of tags in every unit for the well being of the herd.
 
I shot a bull in 1999 in 6A, AZ that was traveling single file with about 75 mature bulls, that were all following a massive herd of cows, spikes and raghorns. It took me 10 minutes to get to the herd, the whole while I watched that line up walk through the trees. When I finally made it within range, the last 15 or so were passing by me at 30 yards. I shot what looked like a big bull (and it was) and still had 8 or so bulls (all big) pass by me AFTER shooting it. It was AMAZING. Back then, I believe there were 325 tags given for the entire unit during archery. It still was the most amazing day of elk hunting I probably have ever had. Conversely, in 2014 I believe there were 1200 hunters on the same hunt. I had drawn with a buddy, and he and I snuck up on a herd with a good bull. The elk were slowly feeding towards us so we stayed put when suddenly the herd lifted their heads and looked our direction and took off. He and I looked at each other like "WTH"? I looked 15 yards behind him and a guy was sneaking on the same elk. I won't put in for that unit as it is not any better than many of the OTC elk hunting here in Idaho, and certainly less expensive for me. I believe the truth is typically in the middle and a little reduction in tags could go a long way.
 
Outdoordan said:
I had drawn with a buddy, and he and I snuck up on a herd with a good bull. The elk were slowly feeding towards us so we stayed put when suddenly the herd lifted their heads and looked our direction and took off. He and I looked at each other like "WTH"? I looked 15 yards behind him and a guy was sneaking on the same elk. I won't put in for that unit as it is not any better than many of the OTC elk hunting here in Idaho, and certainly less expensive for me. I believe the truth is typically in the middle and a little reduction in tags could go a long way.
Click to expand...
I had the exact thing happen to me on an archery hunt in Unit 7W. Only it was way back in the 1990s, and if I recall, there was only about 150 permits for that hunt. I guess the other guy didn't realize it was MY bull. :rolleyes:
 
Outdoordan said:
I shot a bull in 1999 in 6A, AZ that was traveling single file with about 75 mature bulls, that were all following a massive herd of cows, spikes and raghorns. It took me 10 minutes to get to the herd, the whole while I watched that line up walk through the trees. When I finally made it within range, the last 15 or so were passing by me at 30 yards. I shot what looked like a big bull (and it was) and still had 8 or so bulls (all big) pass by me AFTER shooting it. It was AMAZING. Back then, I believe there were 325 tags given for the entire unit during archery. It still was the most amazing day of elk hunting I probably have ever had. Conversely, in 2014 I believe there were 1200 hunters on the same hunt. I had drawn with a buddy, and he and I snuck up on a herd with a good bull. The elk were slowly feeding towards us so we stayed put when suddenly the herd lifted their heads and looked our direction and took off. He and I looked at each other like "WTH"? I looked 15 yards behind him and a guy was sneaking on the same elk. I won't put in for that unit as it is not any better than many of the OTC elk hunting here in Idaho, and certainly less expensive for me. I believe the truth is typically in the middle and a little reduction in tags could go a long way.
Click to expand...
Reduction of tags in any unit would help tremendously
 
From the Arizona Game and Fish website.
"The take of coyotes by hunters has been relatively stable during the past 10 years, about 13,000 hunters taking an average of between 30,000 and 40,000 coyotes a year. Most of these animals are taken while "varmint calling," while hunting other game, or simply as opportunities arise.

Formerly, trappers rivaled sport hunters in the number of coyotes taken, but the reported take of trapped coyotes during the past 10 years has averaged approximately 700 a year. The principal reason for this reduced take is undoubtedly is the decline in market value of a coyote pelt as well as the prohibition of the use of foothold traps on public land.."
Since banning trapping on Public land, for at least the last 10 years, 30-40 thousand more coyotes statewide. how many fawns, calves, etc., do these coyotes kill each year? Maybe we should shoot more 'yotes, so we have more game to hunt? Seems like a good capitalist idea, eliminate the competition?
 
Resident Bulls in 22N yes.
GW told us that most of the bulls in that unit come from above the rim for the late seasons hunts no snow less bulls.
Has it ever even been close to 30% of total number of tags issued. WHAT's the % of bulls are taken for a total season????
 
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Yup, I know the unit. I killed my last AZ bullin it on a Dec. rifle hunt.

The part I was kind of ribbing you about was the statement that there's not enough elk to go around for 1280 hunters, when we both know that the success rate on any hunt will be far less than 100%.
 
Yes but it is now a very low % hunt. The 2 late hunts have like 800 tags together and they run back to back it's a bad idea when there isn't any snow to drive them down to lower country.
 
This is happening in all the western states, it’s called Oppurtunity Hunting or on MM it’s flat brim hunting. I agree with another post our kids will have a hard time drawing tags and possibly skipping multiple years. I myself am always looking to help my girls find somewhat of a mature animal to bring home and I rarely harvest myself anymore. I also agree that all these over lapping seasons are to much pressure on the animals. I would love to see the Quality return also.
 
Gator said:
Yes but it is now a very low % hunt. The 2 late hunts have like 800 tags together and they run back to back it's a bad idea when there isn't any snow to drive them down to lower country.
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The success rates for bulls in those two hunts for 2005 were 69% (67 of 100) and 54 % (65 of 130). In 2019, they were 36% (151 of 475) & 33% (124 of 400), which are within the targeted success rates. In between those two years, they kept adding more permits each season, thus lowering the success rates until they reached the targeted rates. By doing that, they provided more opportunity, yet still killed double the number of bulls.

Overall, 275 dead elk out of 875 permits ain't too shabby in an area that's not supposed to have any bulls in it at that time of year. ;)
 
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What's the count of RESIDENT BULLS that is what I said.
not bulls that show up after the rut and snowfall that come from other units THAT are counted as bulls in that unit above the rim.
I'm saying THAT there isn't that many RESIDENT bulls in 22N year around so those bulls that move in are they counted twice????
 
Gator said:
What's the count of RESIDENT BULLS that is what I said.
not bulls that show up after the rut and snowfall that come from other units THAT are counted as bulls in that unit above the rim.
I'm saying THAT there isn't that many RESIDENT bulls in 22N year around so those bulls that move in are they counted twice????
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What does that matter?

Your original gripe seemed to be that they were giving out too many permits for the number of elk available DURING those hunts. Yet in reality, the hunting opportunities and success rates are right in the ballpark for those hunts. The areas where they come from are managed the same way -- enough permits for the bulls that are present for the early seasons to obtain the desired harvest rate.

There are few resident bucks on the lower ranges of the North Kaibab during the early hunts. That's why they have a LATE season.
 

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