Reissue tags change so use points

[goforbroke]

With point creep as bad as it is, I would love to see Colorado change so reissue tags use points. I am surprised how many tags are reissued. Maybe even give those with lots of points first few days. Neveda uses points on reissue and it helps so those not so great tags last more than .00001 seconds on reissue and helps decrease point creep.

 

[SS!]

Sounds great, make it happen. How much time can you devote to this? The greasy wheel gets the grease. I’m sure you can achieve this, take the lead and let us know how we can support you in this endeavor.

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

The lists have actually been a lot smaller this year compared to years past. Good luck on your endeavor.

 

[smitho]

Talking with a friend that attended the “point creep focus groups” it sounds like next year you’ll have to use your points to buy a tag from the leftover/reissue list. Not exactly sure what it will look like tho.

 

[BigBuckz]

I don't like your idea. Why would you make somebody use there points for a reissue tag? You don't use your points for a 2nd choice. I would be willing to bet most guys with a high number of points are not intrested in hunting most of the tags that are on the list. I don't see see how it would help with point creep or even make a noticeable difference.I like the current system the way it is don't fix something that aint broke.

 

[FrontRange]

I don't like this idea either and it won't put even a dent in the PP issues.

 

[sb2017]

It seems to me that having to use points on the reissue tags would sort of defeat the purpose of the reissue list. Most CO hunters that I know use the reissue list to have a chance at a decent tag that you couldn't draw with your 2nd, 3rd, or 4th choices, while still building points.

 

[goforbroke]

I have no time to dedicate to this - just a thought that I'd like to see happen and see what other opinions are.

I do appreciate that Colorado does reissue these tags and the process they use has changed in the past. More people happy with a tag in their pocket and more revenue for the state.

 

[BigBuckz]

The way it works now I think if you buy a reissue/leftover tag off the list and its a tag that takes 5+ residents points to draw. You loose your points. I am fine with that system. But if I have 10 pts and buy a reissue/leftover tag that takes 0-1 points to draw. I loose my 10 points for going and putting a tag in my pocket that nobody wants for a chance to get out and hunt. I think that is wrong and don't like it.

 

[Ridn9high]

The way it works now I think if you buy a reissue/leftover tag off the list and its a tag that takes 5+ residents points to draw. You loose your points. I am fine with that system. But if I have 10 pts and buy a reissue/leftover tag that takes 0-1 points to draw. I loose my 10 points for going and putting a tag in my pocket that nobody wants for a chance to get out and hunt. I think that is wrong and don't like it.

No points are used when buying a tag off the reissue.

 

[BigBuckz]

No points are used when buying a tag off the reissue.

Thank you I misread the reissue process. Points will only be used for hunts that took 5+ points to draw and you are one of the 5 alternates from the draw that they try and reissue the tag to before it gets turned over to the reissue list.

 

[SS!]

I have no time to dedicate to this - just a thought that I'd like to see happen and see what other opinions are.

I do appreciate that Colorado does reissue these tags and the process they use has changed in the past. More people happy with a tag in their pocket and more revenue for the state.

It must not be important to you. Understood.

 

[oilcan]

I like the idea and here’s why. It would leave more tags available for the large group of guys who are more than happy hunting the 5 point or less units as opposed to building a lot of points and chasing a high profile tag. If a guy has 10-15 points and doesn’t draw or even put in there’s no way he’s using them on a 3 point unit if he loses them all. So that leaves more tags for guys with few if any to obtain a tag. Will this help point creep, minimal if at all.

 

[jims]

I really like the idea of burning points no matter if tags are re-issued, 2nd choice, landowner, governors tags, lottery tag, etc.

An additional idea would be to even burn say up to 2 pts max in otc elk units. If otc elk hunters have to burn a few pts for tags I bet it will be a little less crowded in those units.

With these systems in place, hunters that want to hunt big game in Colo will have to burn rather than build pts. It seems a bit weird that everyone hates pt creep but there isn’t a system in place that burns pts regardless of what tag is drawn or purchased?

 

[jims]

I thought I would explain my otc elk idea in more detail. If a hunter has 15 pts and wants to hunt otc elk his pts would drop to 13 pts. If another hunter has 2 pts and wants to hunt otc elk his pts would drop to 0. If a hunter has 0 pts his pts would remain at 0.

What seems appealing with this idea to me is 1) this would help with crowding in otc elk units since fewer hunters would likely be willing to burn pts. 2). Prevent going to an all draw for elk in Colorado (similar to deer). 3) would aid in pt creep if all otc hunters burn a couple pts each year. There are literally thousands of otc elk tags issued each year in Colo and 0 pts are burned!

The same thing could be done with re-issue, landowner, 2nd choice, and other purchased tags. At least a small # of pts would be burned if a hunter purchases a tag.

 

[Kayak_to_hunt]

The best two things to fix the returned system would be one to give residents the first 24 hours to buy any returned tag. Fair deal as these tags have already been sold once. Cpw is literally swimming in money w the new car registrations so no funding issues!

Second put in a rule you can only buy tags for yourself. No more one retired guy getting them for son in laws, aunts, friends, kids, and the lot. No more bots as Cpw could do a quick check as some ip addresses are getting quite a few tags 😳..

It would solve most of the problems w them disappearing before they appear and there would still be plenty left for nr to choose after 24 hrs but yea as they should the best tags would go to residents. We could even put in a 80-20 split so if there is more than 4 tags available 1 could go to a non resident. This would solve the “crowding” issue w getting a tag.

Agreed some changes need to be made to protect Colorado residents first while still giving opportunity hunts to nr hunters.

 

[Thill]

Talking with a friend that attended the “point creep focus groups” it sounds like next year you’ll have to use your points to buy a tag from the leftover/reissue list. Not exactly sure what it will look like tho.

I was in one of those groups, this idea was discussed but I sure didn't get the feel that it was going to change. The goal of the leftover/reissue tags is to make sure all the tags are issued so the department can get it revenue. At least this was my take on the issue.

 

[LIK2HNT]

Next year I hope to have time to use the reissue list. Hopefully it works as intended.

 

[oldmossback]

I personally would not use my points on anything that I did not have at least a month to scout and plan for

 

[BigBuckz]

The best two things to fix the returned system would be one to give residents the first 24 hours to buy any returned tag. Fair deal as these tags have already been sold once. Cpw is literally swimming in money w the new car registrations so no funding issues!

Second put in a rule you can only buy tags for yourself. No more one retired guy getting them for son in laws, aunts, friends, kids, and the lot. No more bots as Cpw could do a quick check as some ip addresses are getting quite a few tags 😳..

It would solve most of the problems w them disappearing before they appear and there would still be plenty left for nr to choose after 24 hrs but yea as they should the best tags would go to residents. We could even put in a 80-20 split so if there is more than 4 tags available 1 could go to a non resident. This would solve the “crowding” issue w getting a tag.

Agreed some changes need to be made to protect Colorado residents first while still giving opportunity hunts to nr hunters.

Maybe they should make it to where only residents can go after resident return tags. And non residents can only go after non resident return tags. That is the way those tags were given in the draw so neither party is gaining or loosing in tag allocation. As far as your 24 hour idea making it so tags don't disappear as fast. I doubt that will make it any difference those tags are still going to be gone as fast as they go on sale.

 

[SureShot]

Or, only make them available to non-residents to maximize revenue.

 

[JakeH]

Or, only make them available to non-residents to maximize revenue.

No we are talking. I like the way you think. 😏

 

[jims]

Or the opposite thinking of Wyo….90 to nonres and 10 to residents for max revenue and max nonres opportunity!

 

[nripepi]

I thought I would explain my otc elk idea in more detail. If a hunter has 15 pts and wants to hunt otc elk his pts would drop to 13 pts. If another hunter has 2 pts and wants to hunt otc elk his pts would drop to 0. If a hunter has 0 pts his pts would remain at 0.

What seems appealing with this idea to me is 1) this would help with crowding in otc elk units since fewer hunters would likely be willing to burn pts. 2). Prevent going to an all draw for elk in Colorado (similar to deer). 3) would aid in pt creep if all otc hunters burn a couple pts each year. There are literally thousands of otc elk tags issued each year in Colo and 0 pts are burned!

The same thing could be done with re-issue, landowner, 2nd choice, and other purchased tags. At least a small # of pts would be burned if a hunter purchases a tag.

I like it, how about adding that you need a minimum of 1 point to hunt OTC so you can't hunt it every year.

 

[MrDoe]

Or, only make them available to non-residents to maximize revenue.

How about we use points, make them all list b, and make them all cost NR price? Even for res.

 

[RRCowboyStar]

How about 90% Res - 10% Non Res. Once 10 OTC Tags are sold to Residendents than 1 becomes available for Non-Res. Points have to be surrendered for any tag. There would still be point creep, since the OTC Units would be less crowded they would become quality units.
I would gladly pay more as a Resident to offset the difference.

 

[SureShot]

How about we use points, make them all list b, and make them all cost NR price? Even for res.

My comment was tongue in cheek, but I seriously like this idea.

 

[yeff2]

I think they will go this way for re-issue tags. You will have to use points to get some of the higher point licenses that make it back onto that list. Many times you'll see late season bucks tags 54,55,66,67 and 44 go back on the list and someone snagged them with no points. I'm guessing if you want it you'll have to burn your points to get it. I think this should only apply to tags that require more than 5 points on the initial spring draw. Example : I think a guy with 8 points would burn them to hunt 44 buck late season instead of waiting 10 more years to hunt. That's just what I think....

 

[BigBuckz]

How about 90% Res - 10% Non Res. Once 10 OTC Tags are sold to Residendents than 1 becomes available for Non-Res. Points have to be surrendered for any tag. There would still be point creep, since the OTC Units would be less crowded they would become quality units.
I would gladly pay more as a Resident to offset the difference.

A resident elk tag is $57.90 a non resident elk tag is $700.98. Your telling me you would be glad to possibly pay $643.08 difference for a few more resident opportunities? I think most residents are going to have a hard time with that offset. Non residents are not popular in any state. But at the end of the day in most cases they pay a lot of money for tags that help keep resident tag cost low. Also bring in revenue to local towns and buisnesses.

 

[jims]

I still like the idea of subtracting a pref pt off each hunters total pref pt accumulation every year they want to hunt OTC elk. I think a lot of hunters would likely bock at the idea of losing a pt each year rather than accumulate a pt each year if they want to hunt OTC elk. The OTC elk units across Colo would be less crowded without having to convert over to all limited draw units. It may be worth a try?

 

[tailchasers]

I am sick of CPW dicking around with rule changes every year. Every year... Seems the more they piss with it the worse it seems to get. How about leave well enough along for a while? Need we forget the type of establishment running Colorado and with each debated change in CPW/DNR opens opportunity to increasing regulate?

 

[RRCowboyStar]

A resident elk tag is $57.90 a non resident elk tag is $700.98. Your telling me you would be glad to possibly pay $643.08 difference for a few more resident opportunities? I think most residents are going to have a hard time with that offset. Non residents are not popular in any state. But at the end of the day in most cases they pay a lot of money for tags that help keep resident tag cost low. Also bring in revenue to local towns and buisnesses.

There are still NR Tags and Revenue, so it would not be the complete difference.
Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada and others seem to survive without the Unlimited NR Tags.
I have no problem with Non Residents and have made some long time friends. But the currant model is broken. It can't stay unlimited, we are the overflow state for everyone that does not draw elsewere.

 

[Bluehair]

Or, only make them available to non-residents to maximize revenue.

We should compromise. They will have to use points, but will only be available to residents.

That way the NR’s get to hang on to their points.

 

[Stevo]

I'd bet all the OTC units will become draw or at minimum OTC with caps in the next year or 2.

 

[jims]

I really hope something changes with OTC elk. Colo did it for deer and the quality of deer improved considerably in only a couple years. It's a real bummer drawing a limited deer tag and dealing with the crowd of OTC elk hunters. It also makes sense that the CPW would finally be able to manage elk and hunter numbers if converted to all draw.

 

[1989Cohunter]

I like the re issue process ok. It’s not perfect but it could be worse. I like the idea of no more otc elk. I love that I can hunt every year. But as of the last couple years I spend more time frustrated then not. A guy used to be able to get in a couple miles and see very few people.

 

[oldmossback]

A resident elk tag is $57.90 a non resident elk tag is $700.98. Your telling me you would be glad to possibly pay $643.08 difference for a few more resident opportunities? I think most residents are going to have a hard time with that offset. Non residents are not popular in any state. But at the end of the day in most cases they pay a lot of money for tags that help keep resident tag cost low. Also bring in revenue to local towns and buisnesses.

non residents do not bring in anymore business to small hunting towns than residents do. You forget that us residents get to pay the over inflated state taxes year round! About time we get a break on something!

 

[oldmossback]

I really hope something changes with OTC elk. Colo did it for deer and the quality of deer improved considerably in only a couple years. It's a real bummer drawing a limited deer tag and dealing with the crowd of OTC elk hunters. It also makes sense that the CPW would finally be able to manage elk and hunter numbers if converted to all draw.

agreed! at least make the elk tags draw only in the units that take more than 5 deer points to draw. Trust me, burning 15 deer points on a hunt that is over run with OTC elk hunters sucks.

 

[Crampy]

Anyone feel like they fully understand the on-screen messaging?

Tag 1:
10:40 am "not available for sale as a leftover license"
11:05 am changes to "no available tag quota"
11:08am - ish changes to "not available for sale" (period)

Tag 2:
10:40am "not available for sale (period)"
11:05am - ish "not available for sale as a leftover license"
11:08am - ish " back to just "not available for sale"
never said "no quota available.

All on same screen, same user. Never retyped the codes - just pressing confirm choices continually.

Horrible software. Even worse idea to allow this type of line-cutting for zero point cost.

 

[Southpawshooter]

Even worse idea to allow this type of line-cutting for zero point cost.

If I had 0-4 points, I would love it as it would cut half the competition out. I have 16 points. I picked up a re-issue tag that took 0 points. If I had to lose 16 points, obviously I wouldn't do it.

The software is horrible.

 

[HntHrdr]

My question would be what if you have 0 points are you just excluded from the re-issue process then?

 

[Aaronjhanson]

I have tried several times now to get leftover tags, with no luck...

 

[ducksbucksandbulls]

I tried this morning with no luck

 

[elks96]

Haha. This will do absolutely nothing to fix point creep.

Haha. But since I dumped my points and never will accumulate points in CO again it will make it great for me to have less competition on the reissue list. So do it.

 

[Crampy]

My question would be what if you have 0 points are you just excluded from the re-issue process then?

Bingo – that would have to be dealt with in some fashion. Perhaps minimum 2-3 points to participate in reissue.

Otherwise, the smartest guys would stay at zero points and just hunt reissue tags every single year.

 

[elks96]

Bingo – that would have to be dealt with in some fashion. Perhaps minimum 2-3 points to participate in reissue.

Otherwise, the smartest guys would stay at zero points and just hunt reissue tags every single year.

What if the reissued tag took 0 points in the initial draw? Then you have to burn points later to get a tag that originally took no points.

Haha… I did not think this idea could get worse, but then you go and totally redeem yourself…

 

[1989Cohunter]

I don’t hate the idea of using points to get the tag. But it’s easy for me to say cause I have one elk point now, and I hunt a 1 point draw area for deer.

 

[Crampy]

What if the reissued tag took 0 points in the initial draw? Then you have to burn points later to get a tag that originally took no points.

Haha… I did not think this idea could get worse, but then you go and totally redeem yourself…

And then you would need another layer of logic/complexity to deal with that issue.

At some point, some smart employee at CPW would say; “let’s just increase our tag quota by X% to estimate returned tags and stop throwing money at this silly reissue process that contributes to point creep”.

And/or just stop making tag returns so easy and watch the return problem go away.

But if I was an NR who lived close, I’d want this line-cutting process to continue also.

 

[elks96]

The funny part is the reissue lost and point creep have absolutely nothing in common… The reissue list does not add to point creep at all, limited tags and lots of points are responsible for point creep. There is not a single person sitting around with enough points or more points than the need for a tag that do not apply because they might get lucky and pull a returned tag. As a result there is no added point creep from returned tags.

The returned tags lost was created after sportsmen, myself included realized that every year there was a relatively large pile of tags getting returned for all sorts of tags. Those tags at the time were simply thrown away and hurt everyone odds to hunt. Then after some lifting we got a reissue process going. It took a bit to realize that maybe we did not want high end tags going straight to lost so then the move to tags raking more than x number of point get offered to the next in line etc. if the next line don’t want it then to the list.

Long story short the return lift does not add to point creep in any measurable way.

The only way to avoid point creep is to ditch the stupid point system. End it all now and go back to a straight random draw. Let’s the odds be the random etc. until that happens point creep
Will just keep happening, the 20 point units will become 30 point units, 15 move to 20 and the 3-4 point units move to 10.

Inevitably at some point, the only way to get tags will be to simply outlive every other person your age..

 

[HntHrdr]

Ehhh point creep will get a little better for residents when they give Res more tags for all draw units. When you are running the 65/35 split it really fuels the point creep fire, it’s more like 50/50 when you take into account the 20% landowner tags that get skimmed off the top and mostly sold to NR. That would fix some point creep for res in the 2-4 point units. Frankly point creep for NR is boo hoo woe is me issue. Im invested in a handful of states outside of co. Don’t expect to be drawing them every year as a NR, if you are out of state apply to all western states and get on a 4-5 year rotation between them to hunt western big game, otherwise keep shooting turkeys and whitetails and shut-up!
Rant over

 

[DoubleDropMuley]

Take points for whatever choice you draw and get rid of reissue altogether, let those animals live if people can’t make it !!

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

Take points for whatever choice you draw and get rid of reissue altogether, let those animals live if people can’t make it !!

I brought this up at a meeting and CPW claims harvest success rates haven't increased. The re-issue process has definately taken a toll whether its more people in the field or animals that may have made it through had those tags remained un-issued

 

[oldmossback]

Agreed, Re issued tags have nothing to do with points creep.
I am all for the reissuing returned premium tags and I think calling the next 5 in line is a good idea. That being said, CPW MUST come up with a better reissue process! This current process is the worst yet by far.
I would rather they do something like this......
Every Tuesday at 12 noon a preview list comes out.
You have until Wed at 12 noon to put your name into the "hat" for which every returned premium tag that you want.
Wed at 12noon they do a weekly drawing and notify the winners by say 5pm that day.
That way it is totally random, totally luck of the draw and none of this computer crashing , wheel spinning, tags missing, wtf system they have now!

 

[HntHrdr]

Agreed, Re issued tags have nothing to do with points creep.
I am all for the reissuing returned premium tags and I think calling the next 5 in line is a good idea. That being said, CPW MUST come up with a better reissue process! This current process is the worst yet by far.
I would rather they do something like this......
Every Tuesday at 12 noon a preview list comes out.
You have until Wed at 12 noon to put your name into the "hat" for which every returned premium tag that you want.
Wed at 12noon they do a weekly drawing and notify the winners by say 5pm that day.
That way it is totally random, totally luck of the draw and none of this computer crashing , wheel spinning, tags missing, wtf system they have now!

Would not be a bad idea, or give a 3 hour time frame when new tags come out, say Monday and charge 7 bucks to put in for the mini draw, for 1 tag per species, then hold the draw after the time expires and issue the tag that night or the next day. The greedy CPW could win and then it would get rid of the computer race/crash

 

[oldmossback]

I brought this up at a meeting and CPW claims harvest success rates haven't increased. The re-issue process has definately taken a toll whether its more people in the field or animals that may have made it through had those tags remained un-issued

How has the re-issue process takin any greater of toll? Those tags were already allotted. What difference does it make if the animal was killed on a tag from the initial draw or a re-issue tag?

 

[Robiland]

Dont take the points. What they should do is make it so if you return a tag, you lose a portion of your points, for example 50%. That would help with point creep. People that apply and return year after year since they dont find what they want, makes it hard on all the rest with point creep. But dont use points on a reissue tag, LAME!!!

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

How has the re-issue process takin any greater of toll? Those tags were already allotted. What difference does it make if the animal was killed on a tag from the initial draw or a re-issue tag?

Let's say a unit gives 100 buck tags. 20 get turned in and used to get "thrown away" so 80 guys hunt lets say success is 50% percent so 40 bucks get shot. Now with reissue all 100 tags get hunted and if harvest stays the same 50 bucks are getting shot. Do this for a few years and you will see a change. Bucks that may have made it through are not. I also think its hurting the top end especially if guys are getting to hunt the better units multiple times and have it figured out.

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

I'm not saying its the only factor but it is naive to say it is having no effect on quality and quantity

 

[elks96]

Dont take the points. What they should do is make it so if you return a tag, you lose a portion of your points, for example 50%. That would help with point creep. People that apply and return year after year since they dont find what they want, makes it hard on all the rest with point creep. But dont use points on a reissue tag, LAME!!!

no one under the current system can afford to return a tag year offer year. With the current rules you do not get a point on the year you return the tag. The end result is unless you have several point more than needed to draw you only get 1 year maybe 2 years before point creep would put the tag out of reach as the point will pass you…

 

[elks96]

Let's say a unit gives 100 buck tags. 20 get turned in and used to get "thrown away" so 80 guys hunt lets say success is 50% percent so 40 bucks get shot. Now with reissue all 100 tags get hunted and if harvest stays the same 50 bucks are getting shot. Do this for a few years and you will see a change. Bucks that may have made it through are not. I also think its hurting the top end especially if guys are getting to hunt the better units multiple times and have it figured out.

Sorry but from the management perspective the mangers have to assume they all get shot. Because you literally have no way of knowing how many will get returned, how many will get filled or ??? They issue 100 buck tags they are assuming they will get 100 killed. There is absolutely no way to figure out how many tags for any given hunt code might end up being returned…. If anything the return list gives stability and predictability to the system because they can assure that the tags are being hunted…

The return tags should have absolutely no effect on the overall management of the animals. Definitely no negative impact on the resource as the tags already represent animals they wanted harvest….

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

If only CPW managed liked that. With tags not getting hunted and not getting reissued more bucks made it through

 

[oldmossback]

Let's say a unit gives 100 buck tags. 20 get turned in and used to get "thrown away" so 80 guys hunt lets say success is 50% percent so 40 bucks get shot. Now with reissue all 100 tags get hunted and if harvest stays the same 50 bucks are getting shot. Do this for a few years and you will see a change. Bucks that may have made it through are not. I also think its hurting the top end especially if guys are getting to hunt the better units multiple times and have it figured out.

I understand your point but those 100 tags have already been figured into the harvest objective.

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

The problem though is you have to trust CPW's herd counts which have been proven to use the WAG theory more often then not. The other issue I see that hasn't been addressed is CPW's actual harvest objective. I have not seen a unit by unit harvest object the only thing I've seen is a statewide objective which I don't believe has even been updated the last few years. So if you have inaccurate herd counts, inaccurate harvest objectives, and you throw in "extra"hunters that is doing the herds no good

 

[oldmossback]

The problem though is you have to trust CPW's herd counts which have been proven to use the WAG theory more often then not. The other issue I see that hasn't been addressed is CPW's actual harvest objective. I have not seen a unit by unit harvest object the only thing I've seen is a statewide objective which I don't believe has even been updated the last few years. So if you have inaccurate herd counts, inaccurate harvest objectives, and you throw in "extra"hunters that is doing the herds no good

Agreed up to the word "extra" there are no extra hunters. It is the same amount of hunters that the unit started out with initially

 

[Crampy]

The funny part is the reissue lost and point creep have absolutely nothing in common… The reissue list does not add to point creep at all, ..

I disagree.

The current CPW reissue process is absolutely exacerbating the CO point creep problem.

For tags taking > 5 res points, and with just a few days prior to season, often the first 5 guys called in the draw order will refuse the tag because they would have to use points. So, instead CPW lets a fast clicker come in and gets that tag for zero points. CPW missed an opportunity to clear a person out of the point pool and thus contributed to creep.

For many of these higher value tags, there are many residents and NRs with 10-20+ points that would have been happy to use their points on that tag. Let it sit on the list more than the current fraction of a second and let the process find those guys. Get them cleared out of the point pool and alleviate creep. Same phenomenon on lower point tags but it is especially frustrating to see this happen with the trophy tags that hit the reissue list.

 

[RRCowboyStar]

You should have to use points for the Landowner Vouchers, Leftovers and not receive a point if you hunt OTC.

 

[elks96]

The problem though is you have to trust CPW's herd counts which have been proven to use the WAG theory more often then not. The other issue I see that hasn't been addressed is CPW's actual harvest objective. I have not seen a unit by unit harvest object the only thing I've seen is a statewide objective which I don't believe has even been updated the last few years. So if you have inaccurate herd counts, inaccurate harvest objectives, and you throw in "extra"hunters that is doing the herds no good

No the state manages based on DAUs. The DAUs are reviewed and looked at every few years. I know for a fact that the DAUs in the Meeker area was done recently because that allowed them to slaughter all the doe in the white river drainage. It is the reason why they are killing a couple extra thousand doe in the units.

Don't quote my numbers but the old population objects for the DAU was lets say 45,000. For the last 10 years the population in the DAU was 35,000 plus or minus a couple thousand.

Well somehow the idiots decided that since they sucked at management and couldn't get the population to the goal. SO in the last review they decided to adjust the population objective. Since the herd had been at 35,000 they decided that the proper herd size should be 30,000. As a result of that one decision all the deer herds in the meeker area were above objective. The result was last year an all out slaughter on doe in the area, this year another slaughter, After all they have 7,000 surplus animals

So they do DAU numbers for objective then yearly counts and adjust. But without people getting pissed they just move the goal post and then act like the did something amazing. Last year I witnessed the pile of dead doe mule deer in meeker, this year it will happen again. not because the deer are doing great, not because the numbers are up, only because the crap ass managers at CPW moved the objective number and went from being below objective to over objective...

 

[elks96]

I disagree.

The current CPW reissue process is absolutely exacerbating the CO point creep problem.

For tags taking > 5 res points, and with just a few days prior to season, often the first 5 guys called in the draw order will refuse the tag because they would have to use points. So, instead CPW lets a fast clicker come in and gets that tag for zero points. CPW missed an opportunity to clear a person out of the point pool and thus contributed to creep.

For many of these higher value tags, there are many residents and NRs with 10-20+ points that would have been happy to use their points on that tag. Let it sit on the list more than the current fraction of a second and let the process find those guys. Get them cleared out of the point pool and alleviate creep. Same phenomenon on lower point tags but it is especially frustrating to see this happen with the trophy tags that hit the reissue list.

sorry but it will make absolutely no impact on point creep at all. There simply is not statistical way it would make a measurable impact. There simply are not enough tags returned to make a difference...

 

[elks96]

I disagree.

The current CPW reissue process is absolutely exacerbating the CO point creep problem.

For tags taking > 5 res points, and with just a few days prior to season, often the first 5 guys called in the draw order will refuse the tag because they would have to use points. So, instead CPW lets a fast clicker come in and gets that tag for zero points. CPW missed an opportunity to clear a person out of the point pool and thus contributed to creep.

For many of these higher value tags, there are many residents and NRs with 10-20+ points that would have been happy to use their points on that tag. Let it sit on the list more than the current fraction of a second and let the process find those guys. Get them cleared out of the point pool and alleviate creep. Same phenomenon on lower point tags but it is especially frustrating to see this happen with the trophy tags that hit the reissue list.

You are only frustrated because it was not you getting the reissue tag. Nothing more nothing less... Tell you what, look up how many returned tags every year end up on the list... Then look at the numbers of total points holders and the number of total licenses drawn etc. Do the math and I bet a steak dinner that even if you took the total amount of points for ever single tag in the reissue process it would account for less that 1/2 of 1% of all points for that species Again not a single difference in point creep...

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

I realize they use DAUs but have you looked at those. Some have 7 or 8 units while others have 2 or 3. Not a decent way to manage individual units. Like I said I have never seen specific unit counts and/or harvest objectives which is how they should manage. Those DAUs are so skewed with only one or two units having a majority of the animals

 

[oldmossback]

I disagree.

The current CPW reissue process is absolutely exacerbating the CO point creep problem.

For tags taking > 5 res points, and with just a few days prior to season, often the first 5 guys called in the draw order will refuse the tag because they would have to use points. So, instead CPW lets a fast clicker come in and gets that tag for zero points. CPW missed an opportunity to clear a person out of the point pool and thus contributed to creep.

For many of these higher value tags, there are many residents and NRs with 10-20+ points that would have been happy to use their points on that tag. Let it sit on the list more than the current fraction of a second and let the process find those guys. Get them cleared out of the point pool and alleviate creep. Same phenomenon on lower point tags but it is especially frustrating to see this happen with the trophy tags that hit the reissue list.

"CPW missed an opportunity to clear a person out of the point pool and thus contributed to creep."

I for one have been the guy that they call 1 week before the season on a tag that takes 9-10 points and say I am the next in line. I have been that guy 3 times. I turned it down all 3 times. I am not going to spend my points with no time to scout, plan or prep. I am sure this would be the case of 90% of high point holders unless they happen to live near the area the tag is good for.

 

[elks96]

I realize they use DAUs but have you looked at those. Some have 7 or 8 units while others have 2 or 3. Not a decent way to manage individual units. Like I said I have never seen specific unit counts and/or harvest objectives which is how they should manage. Those DAUs are so skewed with only one or two units having a majority of the animals

They use DAU because they acknowledge that all the units in those area share animals.... Managing a single unit does not work because the animals migrate into and out of the unit... As such you use a DAU... Some mule deer that end up in unit 22 will come all the way from Steamboat to get there, in fact there are somehting like 12 different units that have summer mule deer that end up in 22. As such a decision made in any of those units will have an impact in the 22 hunt, and vice versus, a decision made on the hunts in 22 will ultimately have an impact on a dozen other units. SOme more than others... In most cases it is impossible to manage a single unit a specific way, especially for deer. ELk are a little easier, but when you hunt across the migration and hunt animals from august to january, you have to account for the movements etc. Very few places in CO do you have the resident deer stay as resident deer the entire hunting season...

 

[nripepi]

Let's say a unit gives 100 buck tags. 20 get turned in and used to get "thrown away" so 80 guys hunt lets say success is 50% percent so 40 bucks get shot. Now with reissue all 100 tags get hunted and if harvest stays the same 50 bucks are getting shot. Do this for a few years and you will see a change. Bucks that may have made it through are not. I also think its hurting the top end especially if guys are getting to hunt the better units multiple times and have it figured out.

I am seeing 5% or less per unit returned, fyi. Should be pretty simple to track. I don't think it changes harvest much in most units.

 

[nripepi]

I disagree.

The current CPW reissue process is absolutely exacerbating the CO point creep problem.

For tags taking > 5 res points, and with just a few days prior to season, often the first 5 guys called in the draw order will refuse the tag because they would have to use points. So, instead CPW lets a fast clicker come in and gets that tag for zero points. CPW missed an opportunity to clear a person out of the point pool and thus contributed to creep.

For many of these higher value tags, there are many residents and NRs with 10-20+ points that would have been happy to use their points on that tag. Let it sit on the list more than the current fraction of a second and let the process find those guys. Get them cleared out of the point pool and alleviate creep. Same phenomenon on lower point tags but it is especially frustrating to see this happen with the trophy tags that hit the reissue list.

It would be fine to make people use their points, but there are really not that many 5+ point tags. What, a couple per week? It won't fix point creep. 1000s wanted 55 4th tag, but only 1 got it.

 

[SS!]

Take points for whatever choice you draw and get rid of reissue altogether, let those animals live if people can’t make it !!

It’s not about the resource Bill it’s about being able to hunt!

 

[Crampy]

If you are in line to order a hamburger but decide to let up to 20% of folks cut in line ahead of you – you are going to be waiting longer to get that burger.

God help CPW reissue point creep.

 

[nripepi]

If you are in line to order a hamburger but decide to let up to 20% of folks cut in line ahead of you – you are going to be waiting longer to get that burger.

God help CPW reissue point creep.

Agreed, but it is no where close to 20% of the tags. How many 44 or 66 tags so far made the list? Just a couple. How many 4th season in Gunnison, just 1 so far. I think it is less than 5%.

 

[tracker12]

I don't like your idea. Why would you make somebody use there points for a reissue tag? You don't use your points for a 2nd choice. I would be willing to bet most guys with a high number of points are not intrested in hunting most of the tags that are on the list. I don't see see how it would help with point creep or even make a noticeable difference.I like the current system the way it is don't fix something that aint broke.

Sounds like you been grabbing a bunch of good tags and not hurting your point grab. I think this is a great idea. Id gladly give up my points for a 66 4th season deer tag.

 

[elks96]

Sounds like you been grabbing a bunch of good tags and not hurting your point grab. I think this is a great idea. Id gladly give up my points for a 66 4th season deer tag.

Haha, so if you would gladly give up points to get it wouldn’t you be even more glad
To get it and not give up your points?

 

[DoubleDropMuley]

Go Wyomings route , no return tags unless extreme situation . No reissued program. **** in the last 2 years I’ve ate more than enough tags do to life but I’m not gonna cry, sucks yeah but that’s life, carry on . Hoping for better times next season , but I’ll still get tags no matter what and support G&F with new buildings and what ever else the feel they may need 😀

 

[Country]

Totally agree. Get rid of refunds and ability to return tags. Many people are returning them because they got drawn in another state or found a better hunting situation. Make people commit, and if something happens where you can’t go, too bad, that’s life.

 

[oldmossback]

Totally agree. Get rid of refunds and ability to return tags. Many people are returning them because they got drawn in another state or found a better hunting situation. Make people commit, and if something happens where you can’t go, too bad, that’s life

You don't get a $ refund for returning a tag. Never have

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

You don't get a $ refund for returning a tag. Never have

You do now with the new surrender policy. You get your money back and points back

 

[oldmossback]

You do now with the new surrender policy. You get your money back and points back

Didn't last year. You lost your money and did not gain a point for the year

 

[elks96]

You do now with the new surrender policy. You get your money back and points back

Since when... It has been either or for a while now. You either get the points or the money, but not both...

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

you guys need to read the regs this started this year and will be the policy going forward if you return them shortly after the draw you get your points back and your money

 

[elks96]

you guys need to read the regs this started this year and will be the policy going forward if you return them shortly after the draw you get your points back and your money

That is within 3 days of the drawing. I don't see the big deal. Hell 74 hours earlier they could have just cancelled the application... Any bets that 90% of all returned tags did not meet that requirement?

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

That wasn't what was brought up, people stated that you don't get both your money and points back but now you can. I know a few people including myself that took advantage of it when I found out I drew a Utah elk tag before the Colorado results posted.

 

[Country]

A lot of people forego the dollars and get their points back. I say get neither, no refund or points. Will make people give a little more thought into their choice.

 

[oldmossback]

you guys need to read the regs this started this year and will be the policy going forward if you return them shortly after the draw you get your points back and your money

That is a 3 day window, so it is not like you were able to scout and not like the unit. And they haven't even charged you card at that point so you are not really getting your money "back" But you are correct. That is something new and thanks for pointing that out

 

[elks96]

That is a 3 day window, so it is not like you were able to scout and not like the unit. And they haven't even charged you card at that point so you are not really getting your money "back" But you are correct. That is something new and thanks for pointing that out

Also I bet it helps make things easier when a person looks and realizes oh crap that was the wrong hunt code.

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

Actually they did charge my card and then refunded me about a week later. Took about 4 months to get my points back