Replacing Lead with Copper

B

Bow6x6

Active Member
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Ok, this may sound like a stupid question but here goes. Since copper ammo is hard to find where I'm at and primers are still an issue for reloading, can I simply take a factory lead cartridge and extract the lead bullet and insert a copper one? That sounds way too simple so I'm guessing I'd probably have to dump the powder out and start over with a known recipe. Thoughts?
 
Not safely, no. You would have to start from scratch with a published load recipe. What is it you need? Lots of ammo showing up here on the shelves now and on the Internet.
 
That should be no problem. There’s a number of sources listed on AmmoSeek right now.

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take this for what it is worth....I have an older friend in Cali that did that exact thing for years after the non lead law took affect in Cali........never an issue
 
Bow6x6 said:
Ok, this may sound like a stupid question but here goes. Since copper ammo is hard to find where I'm at and primers are still an issue for reloading, can I simply take a factory lead cartridge and extract the lead bullet and insert a copper one? That sounds way too simple so I'm guessing I'd probably have to dump the powder out and start over with a known recipe. Thoughts?
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This is what I did for my 300 Weatherby: I shot a few of the factory loads thru the chronograph to get a base on factory cartridge velocity thru my rifle. I then pulled the 180 gr. SGK's from a number of cartridges, I think it was 12, and reduced the original powder charge by 10% and incrementally increased the powder weight by 2 grains at a time until I reached the full load. Since I observed no high-pressure signs and velocity was comparable, I then seated the 180 gr. TSX's. I ended up with a great load with no problems. Next time I do this I plan to neck size the brass for a good tight hold although bullet slippage has not been a problem.
 
Good way to get hurt. Many copper bullets create higher pressure than lead. Since it sounds like you do not have primers, I will assume you have powder and copper bullets. If anything I would pull the bullets, pour out the powder, and reload with a recipe for copper. Weight and save the powder and you can reload it later for target practice with the lead bullets.
 
I've never experienced high pressures with any copper bullet in any cartridge with max published loads...........it was a big warning when they were new......but my experience hasn' seen it
 
When copper bullets first came out, the bullets did not have grooves and as a result more friction was created resulting in higher pressure readings with a load that was fine with standard bullets. Blown primers were a problem with some loads.
Most of today's all copper bullets have 2 or 3 grooves that reduce the friction down to similar pressure you would get with a standard bullet.
Another problem with factory powders is that they use powder that reloaders may not be able to get to duplicate their loads.

RELH
 
I'm sure that in most cases it's just fine but.... there's always the chance that you'll be introducing higher pressures than you'd want. Typically factory rifle ammo is loaded pretty dang hot.
Another variable is seating depth and bullet jump and I have no way of knowing that you'd get that right.

Zeke
 
If you have the tools to deconstruct and reload a bullet, why not just make some fresh reloads? Hammer bullets are always available and work extremely well on game from my experience. I work up loads for a handful of friends in their rifles using the hammers. Just did a 270wsm with 117hammer hunter and h4350 going 3400fps and it’s a grain below any pressure signs. Load development took about 15 rounds total; they’re very easy to load for.
 
Bow6x6 said:
Ok, this may sound like a stupid question but here goes. Since copper ammo is hard to find where I'm at and primers are still an issue for reloading, can I simply take a factory lead cartridge and extract the lead bullet and insert a copper one? That sounds way too simple so I'm guessing I'd probably have to dump the powder out and start over with a known recipe. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
If you dump the powder and remeasure to a known recipe you'll be absolutely fine. It's no different than buying primed brass. might check neck tension.
 
Zeke said:
I'm sure that in most cases it's just fine but.... there's always the chance that you'll be introducing higher pressures than you'd want. Typically factory rifle ammo is loaded pretty dang hot.
Another variable is seating depth and bullet jump and I have no way of knowing that you'd get that right.

Zeke
Click to expand...
Factory ammo is loaded to SAAMI specs. If you seat the new bullet to SAAMI specs why would you think you'd have pressure issues? Unless you change bullet weight. If you want to seat longer for your rifle you should still be able to measure to the ogive and calculate the seating depth to get you to your proper distance from the lands.
 
All copper bullets will cause higher friction that elevates pressure over lead bullets with a copper jacket. All copper bullets does not squeeze down as easy to fill the grooves in the rifle barrel and this is the leading cause to higher friction and pressure levels.
so removing a lead-copper jacket bullet and installing a all copper bullet in it's place can lead to higher pressure even if you use the same weight bullet and seat to the same length.

RELH
 
RELH said:
All copper bullets will cause higher friction that elevates pressure over lead bullets with a copper jacket. All copper bullets does not squeeze down as easy to fill the grooves in the rifle barrel and this is the leading cause to higher friction and pressure levels.
so removing a lead-copper jacket bullet and installing a all copper bullet in it's place can lead to higher pressure even if you use the same weight bullet and seat to the same length.

RELH
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Hammers mostly eliminate these issues. Especially the Absolute line of bullets. mtmuley
 
RELH said:
All copper bullets will cause higher friction that elevates pressure over lead bullets with a copper jacket. All copper bullets does not squeeze down as easy to fill the grooves in the rifle barrel and this is the leading cause to higher friction and pressure levels.
so removing a lead-copper jacket bullet and installing a all copper bullet in it's place can lead to higher pressure even if you use the same weight bullet and seat to the same length.

RELH
Click to expand...
There is no "squeezing" happening. Copper is less dense than lead, therefore a solid copper bullet of the same weight must by definition be larger than it's cup and core counterpart. This means the copper solid will have more bearing surface than the cup and core. And it's sliding friction that builds pressure not "squeezing." Barnes uses cannelures to reduce some of this surface area.

Taking a quick look at reloading manuals for Barnes and Nosler you'll notice that the powder charges(I'm looking at 270wsm) don't change much and in some instances Barnes has a higher max charge for a given powder. If you buy factory ammo and put a new bullet of the same weight in you are not going to blow yourself up. SAAMI isn't there to tell you where the max is it's to make sure you have ample margin of error. That said call and ask what powder is in the case, if it's not listed on the box, then you should feel more than comfortable doing this.
 
I also used the Hogdon powder site and there is a difference of using less powder for a load with all copper bullets versus a standard cup & core bullet. All copper bullets are harder and less malleable then a standard cup & core bullet.
A reloader using all copper bullets would be wise to use the data for the all copper bullet and not just remove the cup & core bullet from a loaded factory round and replacing with a all copper bullet leaving the powder charge the same. He may get by with it, then again he may get a big surprise when he pulls the trigger.
Feel free to do what you want, it is your rifle.
RELH
 
It has absolutely nothing to do with malleability. The bullet is not being deformed as it travels thru the barrel. A cup and core bullet has the exact same bearing material as a copper bullet, copper. The bearing surface in both(assuming pure copper and not alloys) is in fact copper. Thus the coefficient of friction is the same. The difference is surface area. A solid copper bullet of the same weight and diameter necessarily has more surface area, it has to be bigger. Resulting in more sliding friction and higher pressures. If an ammo manufacturer put the charge in a cartridge you can bet it won't blow up a modern rifle, they have lawyers on staff too.
 
Where does that copper fouling in my barrel come from?

It's being sheared off. The force is parallel to and opposite in direction of bullet travel. Not perpendicular to the bullet.
 
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SAAMI maxes pressures out at around 60-65k psi for most cartridges. The extra 2-3k psi from switching like weight bullets isn't going to blow up a rifle.
 
Did you just ignore the possibility of a blown primer. I guess you do not mind getting a eyeful of blown particles coming back at you though the bolt firing pin hole.
Like I said, your rifle do what you want. Just do not do it around me. Your statement about the bullet not being deformed upon firing is laugh full at best since the rifle lands do not engrave the bullet according to you.
RELH
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
Where does that copper fouling in my barrel come from?

It's being sheared off. The force is parallel to and opposite in direction of bullet travel. Not perpendicular to the bullet.
Click to expand...
Sorry, rifling creates a forces both parallel and perpendicular to the bullet. Basic physics. Any force vector has a X and Y components. One may be zero only if the force is directly inline with one of the axis. Which rifling is not.
 
You ever shot a thin jacked varmint bullet to fast?? That blue puff you see 25 to 50 yards in front of you is the lead incinerating due to to much friction (heat).
 
Seems to me that anyone advocating potentially dangerous reloading practices like substituting components in factory ammo on a public forum is sticking their (and this website’s) neck out.
 
IDMuleyHunter.

You obviously know lots and are quite intelligent but you've forgotten the wisdom of never substituting components without doing some safe work-up.

Let's look at real-world for a second: I went from a 140 grain cup and core in a .264 to a 124 mono-metal bullet. One would "think" I could use a fair bit more powder with that much bullet weight drop yet testing yielded that I can only use 59.5 for the mono v 59.0 of RL-26 for the much larger cup and core bullet. Weird, huh?

And.... most mono bullets are pure copper and most cup and core are gilding metal, which by nature is more "slippery" in the bore.

Best to you sir,
Zeke
 
Zeke said:
IDMuleyHunter.

You obviously know lots and are quite intelligent but you've forgotten the wisdom of never substituting components without doing some safe work-up.

Let's look at real-world for a second: I went from a 140 grain cup and core in a .264 to a 124 mono-metal bullet. One would "think" I could use a fair bit more powder with that much bullet weight drop yet testing yielded that I can only use 59.5 for the mono v 59.0 of RL-26 for the much larger cup and core bullet. Weird, huh?

And.... most mono bullets are pure copper and most cup and core are gilding metal, which by nature is more "slippery" in the bore.

Best to you sir,
Zeke
Click to expand...
Good stuff Zeke. mtmuley
 
Sorry if this has been already elated to since I have not read every post. In my experience, the harder I pushed the copper bullet the better they shoot. I am at compressed loads with my 7 mag. And they like a little jump to the lands. I'll be restarting this experiment with a pair of 260 Remingtons very soon. They tend to hold together better than bonded so you can get away with a slightly lighter bullet that seems to like speed making up for the BC loss.
 

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