Ryan Hatch update

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Was there any other condemning evidence besides the ridiculous idea that the deer went 3 miles with lead in the heart?
Nope, that and the lack of cell service the lack of even trying to prove their case such as pictures/videos, etc. they had 1 witness who wasn’t even there (claimed to be an expert) and Alan himself.
 
No we weren’t allowed to google search at all so I had no idea! That’s what I’m saying about the prosecution I don’t know why they didn’t bring that up that totally would’ve pushed to come to a decision faster haha

Their demeanor was just emotionless. I couldn’t read them at all!
The trials I've been on, past offenses are not allowed to be presented during the trial. We try the case on the merits of the present charges only. Past offenses can be brought up during the sentencing phase, however.
 
The trials I've been on, past offenses are not allowed to be presented during the trial. We try the case on the merits of the present charges only. Past offenses can be brought up during the sentencing phase, however.
Ahh that makes sense! I had never been on a jury before so this was really interesting!
 
So…… they allegedly shot the buck….. in the heart…. In Arizona……….and it runs 3 miles into Utah ?. You know they dun poached that sob forthrightly if that’s the story they brought to court………..I get that that area is sandy so maybe a sand buck could be tracked that far but I bet odds of finding a buck that needs 3 miles of tracking stands I’d say a 1/10000 chance of being found in that pinion sage country.
 
So…… they allegedly shot the buck….. in the heart…. In Arizona……….and it runs 3 miles into Utah ?. You know they dun poached that sob forthrightly if that’s the story they brought to court………..I get that that area is sandy so maybe a sand buck could be tracked that far but I bet odds of finding a buck that needs 3 miles of tracking stands I’d say a 1/10000 chance of being found in that pinion sage country.
Right exactly our thoughts!
 
How do you get northwest of an east west border?
Sort of like this…not exact but generally speaking

68D23421-F237-4780-9C0D-36552D6E80B1.jpeg
 
So, what was proven is they shot the deer in Utah using an AZ tag. The deer was never shot in AZ, correct?
 
How long did you all in the jury deliberate before decision & was it initially unanimous? Good on you as a non-hunter for not buying an animal could travel 3 miles with a hole in the heart before expiring. What would you say was the key deciding factors among the jurors?
 
How long did you all in the jury deliberate before decision & was it initially unanimous? Good on you as a non-hunter for not buying an animal could travel 3 miles with a hole in the heart before expiring. What would you say was the key deciding factors among the jurors?
I want to say we deliberated for 2 hours? The deciding factors were the heart condition and their behaviors. Hiding his cell phone, lying about not having gps/onX/service, I mean they didn’t brag about it nor were even very excited about it when approached by the game wardens (one had a body cam on him). Their defense case didn’t bring any evidence to prove otherwise. And then later when pulled over everything was gone. I wish the cell phone records had been pulled that would’ve helped a lot. Their friend was even a witness for the state.
 
I want to say we deliberated for 2 hours? The deciding factors were the heart condition and their behaviors. Hiding his cell phone, lying about not having gps/onX/service, I mean they didn’t brag about it nor were even very excited about it when approached by the game wardens (one had a body cam on him). Their defense case didn’t bring any evidence to prove otherwise. And then later when pulled over everything was gone. I wish the cell phone records had been pulled that would’ve helped a lot. Their friend was even a witness for the state.
Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions. I know there are a lot of people interested in this case, and there’s not a lot of solid info out there. What did their friend who was a witness for the state have to say about the whole thing? Was he there with them?
 
Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions. I know there are a lot of people interested in this case, and there’s not a lot of solid info out there. What did their friend who was a witness for the state have to say about the whole thing? Was he there with them?
He wasn’t there for the actual shooting he just brought the food/water and gave Ryan a ride back. It was just Ryan and Alan out of their whole party.
 
How did the hunters who turned them in know where hatch and hamberlin were or even know that they had killed the buck?
 
I want to say we deliberated for 2 hours? The deciding factors were the heart condition and their behaviors. Hiding his cell phone, lying about not having gps/onX/service, I mean they didn’t brag about it nor were even very excited about it when approached by the game wardens (one had a body cam on him). Their defense case didn’t bring any evidence to prove otherwise. And then later when pulled over everything was gone. I wish the cell phone records had been pulled that would’ve helped a lot. Their friend was even a witness for the state.
Thank you for coming on sharing info with us and thank you for serving on the Jury. Looked like a huge slow moving time comittment. Where any of the members of the jury hunters?
 
No the gun never reappeared! When they pulled Ryan over they took his boots and some other stuff but that’s it! The buck was never found either!
How did law enforcement examine the deer's heart if the buck wasn't in their possession? Never mind, they had the gut pile.
 
So the head and cape is missing..did they just ditch it in the country or does someone have it and keeping it hidden?? Does anyone have any ideas on this
 
How soon after the buck was killed did the officers get to the carcass? Did anyone hear the actual shot? Tell us more about what buck's heart looked liked....what does "with shrapnel in it" mean?
 
Here’s what I wrote since I wasn’t allowed to take pictures of the maps they presented. Sorry it’s so terrible hopefully you get the gist!

View attachment 96611
A side note: I remember taking notes as a juror on a murder case. During closing arguments, I drew a picture of a gallows with a hangman's noose. Another juror accidently saw it and laughed out loud. It got quiet in the courtroom for a few seconds.
 
So where is the head, horns, cape, and meat at? All of that is HUGE for the case and should eventually become property of the state of Utah. I don't understand how the deer disappeared and how that was never brought up on either side from the prosecution or defense. Wad the meat wasted or left? Listening to criminal detectives, they are always saying they can't charge murder bc they don't have a body. This whole case is very sad to me bc the limits are always being pressed just to get a buck on the ground, and the deer deserve SO MUCH BETTER!

Also Anonymous thanks for all your insight, very informative!
 
A few follow up questions... was there any testimony on the following questions:

(1) What time was the deer initially shot?
(1A) Did anyone hear the shots? If so, was it the other hunter/guides who called in the violation?
(2) What time was Hatch's text to the friend?
(3) What time/day was the carcass recovered by the game wardens?
(3A) Did Hatch and/or Alan take the game wardens to the carcass?
(3B) Was there evidence that the carcass was moved in an attempt to be hidden?
(4) Per the state's expert, how many times was the deer shot?
(5) What time was Hatch pulled over by the game wardens?
(5A) In a previous post, you mentioned the game wardens confiscated boots and "other stuff"? What was the "other stuff"?
(5B) Was there an affidavit for search warrant or affidavit for warrantless arrest presented at trial?
(5c) Were the game wardens from UT or AZ?
(5D) Did Hatch/Alan ever take game wardens to where they claim they shot the buck in AZ?
(6) You mentioned that the friend who delivered water and food testified as a state witness (presumably under subpoena). Was there a text string with directions/coordinates to where he was to meet Hatch?
(6A) Was Hatch's truck parked in AZ or UT?
(6B) Did Alan have a vehicle on the hunt as well? If so, where was it located?
(7) What is a general summation of Alan's testimony?
(7A) Did he testify they tracked it for 3 miles? If so, how long did that take and how did they stay on the trail?
(7B) Did Alan have his phone during the hunt?
(8) In a previous post, there is a picture of the buck. Was the photo entered into evidence at trial?
(8A) If so, who testified to taking the photo - one of the defendants or a game warden?
(8B) There is some answers where you state the buck's horns and cape may have "disappeared". Did any game warden ever actually examine the horns?
(8C) Did anyone testify to the measurements of the horns or the buck's "score"?

Appreciate it! I know this is a lengthy list of questions but it may provide answers many of us on the forum are seeking. Many of the questions are "yes/no" or "AZ/UT" so hopefully you do have to spend too much time with your responses. And a previous poster said it best - there is a not a lot of solid information out there. As a juror, your perspective is invaluable. Thanks!
 
A few follow up questions... was there any testimony on the following questions:

(1) What time was the deer initially shot?
(1A) Did anyone hear the shots? If so, was it the other hunter/guides who called in the violation?
(2) What time was Hatch's text to the friend?
(3) What time/day was the carcass recovered by the game wardens?
(3A) Did Hatch and/or Alan take the game wardens to the carcass?
(3B) Was there evidence that the carcass was moved in an attempt to be hidden?
(4) Per the state's expert, how many times was the deer shot?
(5) What time was Hatch pulled over by the game wardens?
(5A) In a previous post, you mentioned the game wardens confiscated boots and "other stuff"? What was the "other stuff"?
(5B) Was there an affidavit for search warrant or affidavit for warrantless arrest presented at trial?
(5c) Were the game wardens from UT or AZ?
(5D) Did Hatch/Alan ever take game wardens to where they claim they shot the buck in AZ?
(6) You mentioned that the friend who delivered water and food testified as a state witness (presumably under subpoena). Was there a text string with directions/coordinates to where he was to meet Hatch?
(6A) Was Hatch's truck parked in AZ or UT?
(6B) Did Alan have a vehicle on the hunt as well? If so, where was it located?
(7) What is a general summation of Alan's testimony?
(7A) Did he testify they tracked it for 3 miles? If so, how long did that take and how did they stay on the trail?
(7B) Did Alan have his phone during the hunt?
(8) In a previous post, there is a picture of the buck. Was the photo entered into evidence at trial?
(8A) If so, who testified to taking the photo - one of the defendants or a game warden?
(8B) There is some answers where you state the buck's horns and cape may have "disappeared". Did any game warden ever actually examine the horns?
(8C) Did anyone testify to the measurements of the horns or the buck's "score"?

Appreciate it! I know this is a lengthy list of questions but it may provide answers many of us on the forum are seeking. Many of the questions are "yes/no" or "AZ/UT" so hopefully you do have to spend too much time with your responses. And a previous poster said it best - there is a not a lot of solid information out there. As a juror, your perspective is invaluable. Thanks!


Goodness...
 
honest question:

If I have an Arizona mule deer tag. I shoot a deer. That deer travels across to the state of Utah and expires. One foot, three miles, doesn't matter.

Am I allowed by law to recover the deer?
Am I breaking the law if I attempt to recover the deer?
 
No one shot 3 miles….that is the distance the mortally wounded buck traveled into Utah before dying…..what does long range shooting have to do with anything?
They might be related though, bad shot, puff of wind or whatever.
 
A few follow up questions... was there any testimony on the following questions:

(1) What time was the deer initially shot?
(1A) Did anyone hear the shots? If so, was it the other hunter/guides who called in the violation?
(2) What time was Hatch's text to the friend?
(3) What time/day was the carcass recovered by the game wardens?
(3A) Did Hatch and/or Alan take the game wardens to the carcass?
(3B) Was there evidence that the carcass was moved in an attempt to be hidden?
(4) Per the state's expert, how many times was the deer shot?
(5) What time was Hatch pulled over by the game wardens?
(5A) In a previous post, you mentioned the game wardens confiscated boots and "other stuff"? What was the "other stuff"?
(5B) Was there an affidavit for search warrant or affidavit for warrantless arrest presented at trial?
(5c) Were the game wardens from UT or AZ?
(5D) Did Hatch/Alan ever take game wardens to where they claim they shot the buck in AZ?
(6) You mentioned that the friend who delivered water and food testified as a state witness (presumably under subpoena). Was there a text string with directions/coordinates to where he was to meet Hatch?
(6A) Was Hatch's truck parked in AZ or UT?
(6B) Did Alan have a vehicle on the hunt as well? If so, where was it located?
(7) What is a general summation of Alan's testimony?
(7A) Did he testify they tracked it for 3 miles? If so, how long did that take and how did they stay on the trail?
(7B) Did Alan have his phone during the hunt?
(8) In a previous post, there is a picture of the buck. Was the photo entered into evidence at trial?
(8A) If so, who testified to taking the photo - one of the defendants or a game warden?
(8B) There is some answers where you state the buck's horns and cape may have "disappeared". Did any game warden ever actually examine the horns?
(8C) Did anyone testify to the measurements of the horns or the buck's "score"?

Appreciate it! I know this is a lengthy list of questions but it may provide answers many of us on the forum are seeking. Many of the questions are "yes/no" or "AZ/UT" so hopefully you do have to spend too much time with your responses. And a previous poster said it best - there is a not a lot of solid information out there. As a juror, your perspective is invaluable. Thanks!
Will these answers change your life?
 
honest question:

If I have an Arizona mule deer tag. I shoot a deer. That deer travels across to the state of Utah and expires. One foot, three miles, doesn't matter.

Am I allowed by law to recover the deer?
Am I breaking the law if I attempt to recover the deer?

I think it would be a great idea to advise both AZ and Utah Game Wardens of the scenario ASAP! And mark exactly what happened on your GPS, On-X, map, ect. Show where the deer was, where the shot took place, and tracks and blood trail. Self reporting goes a long ways in a situation like that. It is no different then an animal being shot of public land and jumping the fence onto private property. Rather than sneak on a get it out, a hunter should always ask permission to see if they can retrieve the animal.
 
I think it would be a great idea to advise both AZ and Utah Game Wardens of the scenario ASAP! And mark exactly what happened on your GPS, On-X, map, ect. Show where the deer was, where the shot took place, and tracks and blood trail. Self reporting goes a long ways in a situation like that. It is no different than an animal being shot of public land and jumping the fence onto private property. Rather than sneak on a get it out, a hunter should always ask permission to see if they can retrieve the animal.
Yep he is right, better have all your ducks in a row before you go do something like that. I spoke with a warden about this before, ie shooting a bull in otc unit 62 that dies in high point unit 61. More likely to happen with archery equipment I would guess but better have a solid blood trail ect, and be able to prove what you are saying is true
 
Utah convicted them
Arizona is next
then he feds get a bite of the apple under Lacey act?
What crime took place in AZ? A guilty verdict states the crime took place in Utah. According to testimony, no one has the antlers and cape. I'm not sure you're getting a Lacey Violation unless you can prove they transported animal parts over state lines.
 
I think the odds of jail time for poaching the buck are probably a bit slim. However, I have heard a few references indicating that this may very well have been a violation of the "Lacey Act" as well. A simple google search showed this: "The penalties for violating the Lacey Act include both felony and misdemeanor prison terms of up to five years, and fines as high as $250,000 for an individual." I'm no legal expert but if the buck was poached in Utah, and then transported to Arizona....?????
They need to throw everything they can and make an example out of Hatch. His first poaching conviction goes all the way back to 1987 when he shot a buck on the Paunsaugunt in July of that year and it's not like he's been clean from then until now.
 
If the case has the merits to get the Fed's (Lacy Act) involved all those missing items would be found. The Fed's can bring a great deal of pressure.
 
So where is the head, horns, cape, and meat at? All of that is HUGE for the case and should eventually become property of the state of Utah. I don't understand how the deer disappeared and how that was never brought up on either side from the prosecution or defense. Wad the meat wasted or left? Listening to criminal detectives, they are always saying they can't charge murder bc they don't have a body. This whole case is very sad to me bc the limits are always being pressed just to get a buck on the ground, and the deer deserve SO MUCH BETTER!

Also Anonymous thanks for all your insight, very informative!
Actually I have seen murder charges brought without a body. But this wasn’t about murder it was about where the deer was shot.
 
Yep he is right, better have all your ducks in a row before you go do something like that. I spoke with a warden about this before, ie shooting a bull in otc unit 62 that dies in high point unit 61. More likely to happen with archery equipment I would guess but better have a solid blood trail ect, and be able to prove what you are saying is true
Yep exactly, that was pointed out multiple times and he stated he had no cell service
 
I think it would be a great idea to advise both AZ and Utah Game Wardens of the scenario ASAP! And mark exactly what happened on your GPS, On-X, map, ect. Show where the deer was, where the shot took place, and tracks and blood trail. Self reporting goes a long ways in a situation like that. It is no different then an animal being shot of public land and jumping the fence onto private property. Rather than sneak on a get it out, a hunter should always ask permission to see if they can retrieve the animal.
In the case of state lines, I don't have a smart phone so I would make a landmark where the deer was when I shot and then go and retrieve the deer before it spoils. Then tag it and drive home. If somebody can prove I shot it in the wrong state, fly right at it.

I don't crowd private property lines or state lines for that very reason though.
 
honest question:

If I have an Arizona mule deer tag. I shoot a deer. That deer travels across to the state of Utah and expires. One foot, three miles, doesn't matter.

Am I allowed by law to recover the deer?
Am I breaking the law if I attempt to recover the deer?

Contact DWR, officer will most likely want to be involved
 
Actually I have seen murder charges brought without a body. But this wasn’t about murder it was about where the deer was shot.
It's going to boil down to governmental interest as to what happens next sadly. People in place to make decisions do not share the same passion about hunting as the members on this site.
 
Guys, I'm not asking what we should do when our deer crosses a state line.

What is the actual law if you can have a deer that died in another state than your tag???
 
A few follow up questions... was there any testimony on the following questions:

(1) What time was the deer initially shot?
(1A) Did anyone hear the shots? If so, was it the other hunter/guides who called in the violation?
(2) What time was Hatch's text to the friend?
(3) What time/day was the carcass recovered by the game wardens?
(3A) Did Hatch and/or Alan take the game wardens to the carcass?
(3B) Was there evidence that the carcass was moved in an attempt to be hidden?
(4) Per the state's expert, how many times was the deer shot?
(5) What time was Hatch pulled over by the game wardens?
(5A) In a previous post, you mentioned the game wardens confiscated boots and "other stuff"? What was the "other stuff"?
(5B) Was there an affidavit for search warrant or affidavit for warrantless arrest presented at trial?
(5c) Were the game wardens from UT or AZ?
(5D) Did Hatch/Alan ever take game wardens to where they claim they shot the buck in AZ?
(6) You mentioned that the friend who delivered water and food testified as a state witness (presumably under subpoena). Was there a text string with directions/coordinates to where he was to meet Hatch?
(6A) Was Hatch's truck parked in AZ or UT?
(6B) Did Alan have a vehicle on the hunt as well? If so, where was it located?
(7) What is a general summation of Alan's testimony?
(7A) Did he testify they tracked it for 3 miles? If so, how long did that take and how did they stay on the trail?
(7B) Did Alan have his phone during the hunt?
(8) In a previous post, there is a picture of the buck. Was the photo entered into evidence at trial?
(8A) If so, who testified to taking the photo - one of the defendants or a game warden?
(8B) There is some answers where you state the buck's horns and cape may have "disappeared". Did any game warden ever actually examine the horns?
(8C) Did anyone testify to the measurements of the horns or the buck's "score"?

Appreciate it! I know this is a lengthy list of questions but it may provide answers many of us on the forum are seeking. Many of the questions are "yes/no" or "AZ/UT" so hopefully you do have to spend too much time with your responses. And a previous poster said it best - there is a not a lot of solid information out there. As a juror, your perspective is invaluable. Thanks!
Heck of a 1st post?
 
In the case of state lines, I don't have a smart phone so I would make a landmark where the deer was when I shot and then go and retrieve the deer before it spoils. Then tag it and drive home. If somebody can prove I shot it in the wrong state, fly right at it.

I don't crowd private property lines or state lines for that very reason though.

Well that's the whole point to this entire thread, the DA proved in court that the deer was shot in the wrong state. A hunter is not required to have a smart phone, Onx, Baseman, GPS, or a map ect. But what I tell hunters all the time is that it's the hunters responsibility to know where they are hunting at all times. That means correct unit, public vs private, state lines ect. Sometimes the hills have eyes and one never knows who's watching. If a hunter wants to risk shooting an animal in one state and it runs into another and dies without letting both states Wardens or F&W Troopers know then that's up to them.
 
I’m guessing Hamberlin accidentally dropped his 6.5 creedmore off the Glen Cyn dam shortly after pulling off the Swarovski 5-25x52 dS PL digi scope while taking a pisss while on a Beer run to Page, AZ in the midnight hours at some point post kill. And later reconvene with Hatch and play some late COD with T. Brock.
 
I use a bipod on every hunting rifle I own. I only put Harris bipods on my guns and they have never failed me. I was checking out Hatch Out West bipods and really liked what I saw in his facebook video. They really seem flawless in their design. I went to the website to look into them further and about sh!t myself. They start at $389. I can't imagine someone paying that much for a bipod. Anyone use his bipod?

 
I use a bipod on every hunting rifle I own. I only put Harris bipods on my guns and they have never failed me. I was checking out Hatch Out West bipods and really liked what I saw in his facebook video. They really seem flawless in their design. I went to the website to look into them further and about sh!t myself. They start at $389. I can't imagine someone paying that much for a bipod. Anyone use his bipod?

I don't have a Hatch, but mine is $300+
 
I think I may have paid $150'ish for my Harris bipods....but I haven't bought any new ones for 10 years or so. I probably should look at upgrading....
 
Yep exactly, that was pointed out multiple times and he stated he had no cell service
That’s a weak defense, glad that you saw through it, even without cell service. Your phone works in airplane mode and can take pictures and drop points on mapping services, I do it all the time. Rarely have phone service where I hunt
 
I use a bipod on every hunting rifle I own. I only put Harris bipods on my guns and they have never failed me. I was checking out Hatch Out West bipods and really liked what I saw in his facebook video. They really seem flawless in their design. I went to the website to look into them further and about sh!t myself. They start at $389. I can't imagine someone paying that much for a bipod. Anyone use his bipod?


I can see the ads now "AZ to UT no shot too far for the Hatch" or something like that.
 
Crappiest thing about this whole deal, is the fall from grace of a real Mule Deer ambassador. The Deer need real advocates, these days that bring attention, and attention in the conservation realm.

The whole deal sucks.
I agree with the sentiment. But probably more important right now that these types of characters are being taken off the front cover of what people admire about hunting. The amount of bullshit making headlines in the last couple of years from guides and instafamous idiots is depressing overall. All of them a bunch of fake, lying, cheating dirtbags.
 
That bipod is the best hunting Bipod that I’ve ever found. I’ve killed a pile of stuff off of that thing.
It looks really well thought out and put together but I just don't know about paying $400 for a bipod. Sounds like more of a Xmas gift I could ask the girlfriend and not the wife for. LOL.....kidding of course.
 
honest question:

If I have an Arizona mule deer tag. I shoot a deer. That deer travels across to the state of Utah and expires. One foot, three miles, doesn't matter.

Am I allowed by law to recover the deer?
Am I breaking the law if I attempt to recover the deer?
Yes if you did recover it in Utah while it was shot in Arizona you are breaking the law. Call both states f&g. And I bet the outcome would be good. You’d at least be felony free.
 
I would also think it might be a little more of a process if you did the right thing and called both agencies. Maybe you don’t take the deer home that night. Maybe both agencies have to meet and make sure it’s handled properly with some supervisor approval. I’m glad to see an example being made of these elitist outfitters and the games they’ve played for far too long. What’s a real shame I remember loving those Muley Crazy videos and magazines seeing all those bucks Ryan was involved with. And thinking holy crap this dude is a bad A55. But was he how many of these deer were legal. Why did virostco stop hanging around with him how come clay bundy quit hanging around with him. Was it because this kinda stuff that they wanted nothing to do with?
 
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I would also think it might be a little more of a process if you did the right thing and called both agencies. Maybe you don’t take the deer home that night. Maybe both agencies have to meet and make sure it’s handled properly with some supervisor approval. I’m glad to see an example being made of these elitist outfitters and the games they’ve played for far too long. What’s a real shame I remember loving those Muley Crazy videos and magazines seeing all those bucks Ryan was involved with. And thinking holy crap this dude is a bad A55. But was he how many of these deer were legal. Why did virostco stop hanging around with him how come clay bundy quit hanging around with him. Was it because this kinda stuff that they wanted nothing to do with?
Ryan always had a knack for finding those fairly fresh 220+ bucks “with out a doubt lion kills” while wandering around on the strip with his camera in the 90’s. He truly had a 6th sense for lion killed bucks way over 200”
 
I took my 16 year old son into muley crazy in October this year because he off course wanted to check it out. I knew a little of Ryan’s reputation before going but wanted to give my son a chance to see all them bucks in there and check it out. We were hunting zion at the time and while we were in muley Crazy one of wade Lemons guides came in with a paunsagunt hunter. The guide asked us where we were hunting and I responded Zion. He then proceeded to tell my son in a quiet voice that we needed to hunt the wash that runs through Kanab. “Lots of big bucks killed in that wash” he said. Problem was that the wash is all private property. When we left the store I had my son google Ryan Hatch and Wade Lemon with the word poaching attached to their name. Needless to say my son was very disappointed but also very educated on what the worlds great hunters may actually be about. Good lesson for a 16 year old outdoorsman that gets these big name hunters shoved down his throat on social media.
 
WL, RH, MF currently charged or recently convicted, right? Who am I missing?

#Doingitforthegram
The bowmars just got convicted. Funny thing on that one they are now trying you sue the make hunting great again page for defamation. I’m not sure if they got lacy act charges I know it was talked about prior to the trial.
 
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