Safe max 54 load w/heavy conical

[Katoom]

I'm having a hard time finding info on the safe max load for a 54 TC Renegade (sidelock) 1:48 using from 430 to 535 grain lead conical and Triple 7 FFG. I will be hunting elk with it so want to start around 70 gr I suppose and work up to a bit on the stiff side, but not anything that will put me in the red zone. Any ideas?

Same question again but this time for a 50 TC Omega 1:28 using anywhere from a 350 to 460 grain lead conical , either FFFG or FFG. I usually shoot a 300 sabot atop 100 gr FFFG 777 but no sabots are allowed in CO and I am a bit concerned about 3F behind such a huge hunk of lead.

Thanks all!

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-23-19 AT 07:46PM (MST)[p]



I have a TC renegade. I think if you can find an accurate load between 80-90 grns, I would stop there. I have shot 460 gr Bullshops and when I tried 95 grns the hammer would be at half c-ock after I shot.

In my 0.504 white I used 90 gr of fffg and a 460 gr Bullshop. It could handle more but my neck couldn't.

Hopefully your T/C will handle big conicals better than mine. The QLA makes some of their guns not do well with flat based conicals. The only conicals that would shoot well had a rear bell on the rear. Like powerbelts , FPBs and Thor?s. Hope yours does better. T/C won't guarantee accuracy of conicals. Just sabots. I finally cut my QLA off because I only hunt Colorado and that means conicals only

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Salmon]

I have shot the TC New Englander and buddy the renegade 54 cal allot. We use blackpowder 2ff. Maxi ball weighing 415 gr which I pour. Max amount we have used is 120gr. Usually shoots right through them. Good luck.

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-24-19 AT 06:49AM (MST)[p]



Keep in mind that 777 is approximately 10-15% stouter that black. So that equates to aprox 105-110 gr 777. It always amazes me how some guys can shoot that much and not be bothered by the recoil. It bothers my neck (had 2 injections in that) and I start to flinch due to recoil. For those that can, power to you. But regardless of recoil, never really seen the need. Dead is dead, and all my elk have been short trailing jobs.

I can tell you this: If I were using a bullet of 500+, I would be using 80-85 gr max. Big slow bullets KILL. And for shots of less than 120 yards are so, the difference in trajectory would be minimal.

One warning I will give you: Don't ever use a lead sled with your renegade. I did to save my neck while working up a load and it broke my stock

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Blank]

I have always preferred to use Pyrodex P in my Greyhawk, Renegade, and Hawken. Just seems to lite off faster and cleaner. The Renegade was a 54 and shot 90 grains with a Maxi-Ball. It was my black timber elk rifle here in Idaho so didn't care to shoot more than 100 yards. The others were 50's and all shot better with 100 grains powder and 300-385 gr bullets.

 

[txhunter58]

I have heard good things about similar loads with pyrodex P.
For those that have not used it, it would be comparable to fffg so add about 10% when comparing it to regular pyrodex

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Homer]

...just make sure you understand the difference between volume and weight.....they are NOT the same. Most black powder loads refer to "volume"

 

[FrontierGander]

Personally, I'd just use a simple .530" patched round ball pushed with 70 to 90gr 2fg. Kill'm all day long with that load.

www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

 

[uphill]

I won't guarantee it's "safe" but for decades I've hunted with a .54 TC Renegade loaded with 100 grains by volume of Pyrodex RS behind a 430 grain lubed TC maxi-ball. That conical bullet has been discontinued but a few internet sources sell cast bullets that are basically identical.

 

[txhunter58]

You can get them here:

http://www.octobercountry.com/maxi-balls/

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Katoom]

Ok so thanks for the tips fellas. Had a couple range sessions and a few ups and downs. And I also suspect that developing a "stiff" load with lead conicals might not be that easy (or that safe).

First, the .54 Renegade was the easier of the two to work with. I think that it shoots best with 70-75 grains (volume) FFG 777 and a 535 NE conical. I tried it at 80 and it was no better but more recoil and a lot more smoke. I didn't blow back the hammer on any of the shots but I wouldn't be comfortable even trying a heavier load, with that 500+ projectile.

The .50 TC Omega was more difficult. I had heard that might be the case with its QLA. I would get a decent group, then a flyer. I'd adjust sights and it would do something else. Random. I tried from 70 to 90 grains FFFG 777 with a 460 NE conical. At 90, the load was too much. Smoked out. Group went to crap. Rifle sounded different. No bueno. I think the bullet was skipping the rifling, with gasses blowing by. At 75-80 grains, the rifle sounds more like a CRACK and not a WHOOOMP! Smoke is reduced, and counterintuitively, POI went UP dramatically.I theorize that the lead was now filling the rifling and had a good seal behind it so it wasn't allowing blow-by. Seems velocity went up. And group got tighter. I need to tweak one more time this week but I feel encouraged.

Finally, all that said -if I kept a track of every single shot, from first fouling shots to last, no matter the load and even before I made any adjustments to the sights, all would have ended up on or just off the target in what would be about a 15 inch circle. So even though I am getting it down to about 3 inches at 100, dumb luck would probably prevail no matter what and I would not want to be the elk that wanders into range.

 

[txhunter58]

Some people have had luck with the T/C using an MMP sub bases. You drop it in on top of the powder and then load the bullet. It seals the gasses in like the plastic ring/base on the rear of powerbelts. They are cheap so not expensive to try.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Katoom]

That sounds like a good idea. I am shooting over a dry wool wad but the plastic base would certainly do more work to contain the gasses. I am just out of time to buy them and start a new round of testing. The tag I got was a happy surprise and I am under the gun to tune the ML up for CO as quickly as I can before heading out next week.

I think the pure lead bullets I am using, though they supposedly obturate easily, may also allow the bullet to get shaved a bit and allow blow by. I hadn't mentioned in my last post that I also tried Hornady great plains bullets before testing the NE bullets. They don't have as much of a lube groove, more of a knurling, and there were large amounts of lead shavings on a patch run down the bore after each shot. The great plains would not pattern at all with a heavy load. It seems those were just popping out, shotgun style. I don't know why I would have this issue if others can shoot them accurately but maybe its something unique to the gun, or maybe something up with the pressures generated by 777. I am still trying to calculate if my load was too heavy or not. I don't have a chrono to know what is happening, velocity wise. Hard to compare apples to apples with the literature I've seen for black powder and different (generally lighter) bullets. So I don't know. Either way, seems like I am going to settle for the heavy and slower route rather than the heavy and fast route. I doubt the elk will notice either way with a good hit. 460 or 530 grains of lead in the boiler room will do the job at 1100 FPS or 1400 FPS with pretty much the same effect.

 

[uphill]

My guess is that the .50 Omega is engineered for something along the lines of a 250 grain saboted projectile and the barrels rate of twist will just never shoot 400 plus grain projectiles accurately.

Since the Omega is a .50 as opposed to a .54 you have almost limitless options. If you take the .50 to the range again try some 275-300 grain projectiles and I would wager accuracy will improve.

Good luck.

 

[Katoom]

Agreed. The omega is extremely accurate with a 250 or 300 sabot load and 100 grains loose FFFG. The heavy lead chunks required in CO give it some fits. I had to back the load down even further to really make it work today. And so ended the search at 70 grains FFFG 777. That's probably around the same as around 80-82 grains FFFG black powder or pyrodex. What is unknown is the pressure generated behind the big 460 bullet. I did some more reading in an old 1975 Lyman handbook and am actually thinking I inadvertently did something very dangerous by loading 90 grains FFFG 777 behind it the other day. In the handbook, breech pressures were maxing out with 90 grains FFFG black powder and a 370 grain maxi bullet. Using that data, my 777 load was more like the equivalent of 105 grains of black powder, atop a significantly heavier bullet. I took a BUNCH of shots with that setup too, and was, in hindsight, getting signs that it was over-max pressure. I wish I hadn't done it and wish I had seen that manual FIRST!!!

 

[txhunter58]

I know you are running out of time, but have your tried the 348 lead federal B.O.R. bullet? The 300 gr Thor would also be a good bullet, but you don't have time to get that one figured out.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Katoom]

To follow up and close out, I carried the 50 Omega and had the 54 in camp as a backup. I took a cow at about 50 yards offhand, quartering forward (a bit more than I had figured in the moment) and I put the 460 No Excuses with 70 grains FFF 777 forward of, below and inside the left shoulder (no major bone contact) and exited outside the right rear quarter (also missed bone). So it traversed 3/4 the length of the elk. It left what appeared to be a 3/4 inch hole in the hide at exit. She ran about 40 yards, with poor blood trail (but didn't need it anyway, and that was a consequence of my somewhat marginal shot angle too).

Thanks to all for the comments ahead of my hunt.

 

[txhunter58]

Congratulations! That was great penetration and terminal results! Another testimony that you don't need 100+ Grs of powder to kill an elk when you use a big slug of lead!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Shootrj2003]

The stoutest load I have fired in my TC Renegade is not the most powder(BP) but I feel like the .50 cal. 480 gr. Knight something or others?,over 95 gr.of 3f goex was stout enough to not put anything more in her behind that bullet ,that was in my .50 renegade bbl.I just brought my .54 bbl out of rest I haven’t used it in a couple years but I just finished my : .50 custom project and I feel 1 .50 is all I need ,I also miss that big bore bbl just gotta work up some ammo for it,I only have about 20 balls and a box of real bullets for it I believe I do have a .54 mold either ball or maxi ball somewhere and I got lots of lead .so I gotta go look .I happened to pick up a box of those knights 480 grainers for I think free,a couple years ago they were packed in clear plastic tubes must be twenty tubes in that box with about 10 in each tube! Who knew it would end up being so valuable to me.