San Juan Elk Hunting
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elkhunterUT
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yes, bull to cow ratios on Utah's premier units are crazy high, and most guys don't want to hear this, but that is part of the reason quality and future potential on these units is declining. Herd productivity is in jeopardy with a high bull to cow ratio and an overall aging elk herd. There is strong data on the Beaver unit (premier unit like San Juan) showing this.
tallelkchaser
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Yeah it’s crazy down there. Sure is fun in September!
2lumpy
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Where could I read up on that productivity analyst. Thanks.
elkhunterUT
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Watch this video starting at around 5:22:50 and listen to Mike Wardle (DWR biologist over the Pahvant and Beaver units) talk about the Beaver unit.
You could also call Mike Wardle directly - he is very good to respond.
Vanilla
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Oh there are ABSOLUTELY folks that don’t want to hear about how not hunting is hurting the herd. They want to think tag cuts and keeping certain folks rich is the answer.
They are called anti-hunters, and we have a crap ton of them in this very forum.
But I digress…
They are called anti-hunters, and we have a crap ton of them in this very forum.
But I digress…
yotebuster17
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So the rich guys buying the tags, the G&F and hunters that want trophy units are backed by the antis? Just wanna make sure I have this conspiracy theory correct.
yotebuster17
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So every unit should be OTC year round for bucks and bulls? At some point, someone took hunting opportunities away to get to having the systems we have now which have allowed for healthy populations of everything we currently hunt.
joesikora
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Ok where did all the cows go? I don’t know if this was bullsh$t or not but the one video on YouTube I seen there were like four nice bulls together chasing a cow that make the normal size bulls in NM look like spikes! I’m not knocking NM‘s elk by no means. Now low cows will bring out bulls but it sure looks like there aren’t enough to satisfy the bulls. Is that the way it is? Like someone said above they need to take out a few bulls to get the numbers straightened out. Is that what needs to be done? Oh one other thing why do the mule deer auction tags go for extreme amounts of money compared to BHS and ELK tags are these guys killing record book muley’s every year and just want their names in the book?
What say you?
What say you?
joesikora
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Here’s a doe to buck ratio math I guess? That I found
How do you calculate buck to doe ratio?
1) 56 pictures of bucks with 12 being unique. | 12 ÷ 56 =.2142
2) 200 pictures of adult does without counting fawns | .2142 x 200 = 42
3) So 12 bucks for every 42 does. Your exact ratio would be 12:42. So your buck to doe ratio would be roughly 1 to 4.
What do you think the Cow to Bull ratio is in the premium units?
How do you calculate buck to doe ratio?
1) 56 pictures of bucks with 12 being unique. | 12 ÷ 56 =.2142
2) 200 pictures of adult does without counting fawns | .2142 x 200 = 42
3) So 12 bucks for every 42 does. Your exact ratio would be 12:42. So your buck to doe ratio would be roughly 1 to 4.
What do you think the Cow to Bull ratio is in the premium units?
elkhunterUT
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The biologist that flew the Beaver unit recently counted 84 bulls to 100 cows and that was based on only bulls that could be seen. He acknowledged that a lot of bulls hide well in that unit in the winter and aren’t seen during flights, so he said the bull to cow ratio is probably even closer to 1:1 on the Beaver.
This is the challenge with managing the elk herd based on age objective. On the premium units, the age objective is high, so very few bulls are killed. The problem here is that the herd overall has to be kept within the population objective. If mature bulls can’t be killed to maintain age objective, cows and spikes have to be killed to keep population objectives in check. You can see the detrimental effects that this has on the overall herd.
Part of the new Utah elk plan is to address some of this, in part, the reduction of age objectives so more bulls can be killed.
joesikora
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Hi elkhunterUT
Wow! That was the best explanation I have ever heard. Are you a biologist? LOL!
Here is another question I have. What about using a cull program? NM has a APRE 6 in some areas Not sure if they use that to help the herd or not. The trophy deer ranches in TX and through out the states use a cull program to eliminate the inferior bucks. Also taking out a few more mature 5x5’s. Again we are talking about elk not deer but just asking. I just like asking questions not to say I‘ll fix the problem! LOL! Although I did make a change to NMG&F poaching fines. After my first elk hunt I wanted to learn more about NM hunting. I was talking with a guy named Kirkpatrick or something close to that and I remember reading an article before speaking with him that said at the end of season NM had an event and they would auction off the racks, horns, etc that were confiscated from poachers and that the prices can bring in a thousand dollars or so which will go to Game & Fish to help catch even more poachers I guess.
So the fine was $3k and I said to Kirkpatrick that at a $3k fine, a a $1k rack horn buy back so all in $3k. A excellent top notch guided elk hunt at the time was somewhere around $6-$9 so I can shoot a trophy elk if I get caught I pay a $3k fine and loss of hunting privileges in NM. The article I read also said most
poachers were NR so not being able to hunt NM really doesn’t hurt most of the violators. I said to Kirkpatrick, so I can spotlight etc and kill a trophy elk etc then if a get pinched I pay a $3k fine I buy my racks horns etc back at auction for say $1,500 on average.
So $3k fine
$1,500 rack horns etc auction buy back
Total let’s say
$4,500
$7,500 average top notch elk hunt average
$3,000 Saving NICE….
So when I got my rugs the following year I saw that the fees went up to $10k.
Your Welcome…..
Wow! That was the best explanation I have ever heard. Are you a biologist? LOL!
Here is another question I have. What about using a cull program? NM has a APRE 6 in some areas Not sure if they use that to help the herd or not. The trophy deer ranches in TX and through out the states use a cull program to eliminate the inferior bucks. Also taking out a few more mature 5x5’s. Again we are talking about elk not deer but just asking. I just like asking questions not to say I‘ll fix the problem! LOL! Although I did make a change to NMG&F poaching fines. After my first elk hunt I wanted to learn more about NM hunting. I was talking with a guy named Kirkpatrick or something close to that and I remember reading an article before speaking with him that said at the end of season NM had an event and they would auction off the racks, horns, etc that were confiscated from poachers and that the prices can bring in a thousand dollars or so which will go to Game & Fish to help catch even more poachers I guess.
So the fine was $3k and I said to Kirkpatrick that at a $3k fine, a a $1k rack horn buy back so all in $3k. A excellent top notch guided elk hunt at the time was somewhere around $6-$9 so I can shoot a trophy elk if I get caught I pay a $3k fine and loss of hunting privileges in NM. The article I read also said most
poachers were NR so not being able to hunt NM really doesn’t hurt most of the violators. I said to Kirkpatrick, so I can spotlight etc and kill a trophy elk etc then if a get pinched I pay a $3k fine I buy my racks horns etc back at auction for say $1,500 on average.
So $3k fine
$1,500 rack horns etc auction buy back
Total let’s say
$4,500
$7,500 average top notch elk hunt average
$3,000 Saving NICE….
So when I got my rugs the following year I saw that the fees went up to $10k.
Your Welcome…..
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elkhunterUT
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ha ha - not a biologist here (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once 
). I am just regurgitating what I have heard the actual biologist over the Beaver unit share in multiple meetings and venues and it makes a lot of sense in my mind.
Cull programs are tricky, but in essence that is one of the things that Spike bull hunting is trying to achieve in the Utah plan - Kill some excess bulls on these units while still maintaining age objectives. Problem is on some of these units, the success rate for spike bulls isn't high enough to really move the needle, so we are killing cows to keep overall populations in check ?
?
). I am just regurgitating what I have heard the actual biologist over the Beaver unit share in multiple meetings and venues and it makes a lot of sense in my mind.Cull programs are tricky, but in essence that is one of the things that Spike bull hunting is trying to achieve in the Utah plan - Kill some excess bulls on these units while still maintaining age objectives. Problem is on some of these units, the success rate for spike bulls isn't high enough to really move the needle, so we are killing cows to keep overall populations in check ?
?
joesikora
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Well as I said best response I ever heard.ha ha - not a biologist here (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once
Cull programs are tricky, but in essence that is one of the things that Spike bull hunting is trying to achieve in the Utah plan - Kill some excess bulls on these units while still maintaining age objectives. Problem is on some of these units, the success rate for spike bulls isn't high enough to really move the needle, so we are killing cows to keep overall populations in check ?
I still say cull the 5x5’s because they will never be a 6x6 and the inferior horned elk with a limit on the harvest of course. What would it hurt to try it for a few years if the spike idea isn’t working. Thinning the cows will just cause tremendous fighting of the bulls which will cause broken antlers which is the big draw for these units plus bulls getting killed by one another.
Just an idea it can’t hurt anything
elkhunterUT
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yep good idea - The new Utah elk plan, in essence, is a similar approach. Lower age objectives in all units, and increase tags during less successful times (Sept archery, mid-season rifle, late rifle, late archery). These less successful hunts should help in harvesting the "less desirable" bulls that are being passed on during the early rifle hunt. Guys are good shooting a 5 point or a small 6 point when they know they can draw the tag a few times in their lifetime rather than only getting one chance.
Tag increases were pretty modest this year, but the Division wanted to see how things go first and then hopefully ramp up tags to kill excess bulls.
Tag increases were pretty modest this year, but the Division wanted to see how things go first and then hopefully ramp up tags to kill excess bulls.
slamdunk
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Don't let Bess read this ??
elkhunterUT
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I wish other dudes on this site caught on as quick as you do and were as agreeable as you are
I am just an "armchair" biologist, but a pretty good one I think!!
yotebuster17
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5pt hunts are tricky. The saying that a 5pt will never be a 6pt is entirely incorrect. Rough winters and droughts can cause mature 6 pts to drop to 5 those years. Most of the kill on 5 pt or less hunts are young bulls that will likely be 6 points at some point in their career and carry 6 point genetics. The other thing that’s happened with 5 point hunts on top end units is guys target big 6 pts after they’ve broken a tine off which is fairly common later in the rut.
slamdunk
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There are a lot of genetic 5 points that never get 6......ever.
However, I do agree a 5pt hunt would be a disaster due to too many young bulls being taken.
