SB 196 Passed 38 In Favor, 3 Against

S

sab

Guest
Well, all the discussions are over, and the Senate Finance Committee version of SB 196 passed just a few minutes ago.

Looks like I have to pick a new state to hunt muleys and elk from now on...bummer.

Scott
 
I just heard the same.

It still has to pass house I understand, but, it appears it will.

Sorry, DIY NRs, you guys got the short end of the stick.
 
If it passes I won't even apply this year and most I know won't I think they will know what the impact is real quick. Point system coming up to beg the NR to come back. That is the only positive of it.
 
If this passes into law I am out of NM hunting as well. In fact, we vacation in Red River, NM almost every summer and I will take my out of state money to where it is welcome, CO has better mountains anyway.

Screw NM.

Rick Nolan
 
Thanks BOB I guess we will,Can't see your side of this.
Divide and conquer, But united we stand.
I hope you draw once every 20 years.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
Looks like I am going to have to plan out-of-state to hunt with my non-resident relatives, I was hoping that this bill wouldn't pass.
WVBOWAK
 
WAA WAA WAA! You guys sound like my 5 year old. I'll believe that you wont put in NM when I see it. Bunch of cry babies. To be upset is one thing, but to take your ball and leave attitude is frickin hillarious.
 
>WAA WAA WAA! You guys sound
>like my 5 year old.
>I'll believe that you wont
>put in NM when I
>see it. Bunch of cry
>babies. To be upset is
>one thing, but to take
>your ball and leave attitude
>is frickin hillarious.


+1!!!!!!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-11 AT 09:18PM (MST)[p]NMPaul - does this bill not scare most educated residents? You're getting 6% back at what cost? If NRs exit the draw system who will be left to fill the budget gaps? Maybe NM budgets will survive, but for 6% more plus some cow tags... is playing with this fire worth it?

I personally won't apply in NM in 2012 and beyond if it passes. It has nothing to do with "taking my ball and going home" or being a "cry baby". It's financial common sense for me personally.

$100's of non-refundable fees, no point system and 6% of the permits available?! It doesn't take a 5 yr old to figure out that's not the best use of my funds. Thanks, but no thanks - I will choose to take my hard earned money elsewhere.
 
>WAA WAA WAA! You guys sound
>like my 5 year old.
>I'll believe that you wont
>put in NM when I
>see it. Bunch of cry
>babies. To be upset is
>one thing, but to take
>your ball and leave attitude
>is frickin hillarious.

Take our ball and leave? I think it's more like the ball's been moved to a new court by your legislature, and that court is at an exclusive country club that won't let us out-of-state hicks in.

Look, it's simple economics and capitalism for most of us NRs. It just does not make sense to pay a lot of money for a small chance at a tag in one state when there are much better options available. Options where bonus and/or preference points mean that your investment is guaranteed to eventually pay off.

You can call us NRs names if that makes you feel better, but time will tell whether or not your legislature has pushed NRs too far. If it has, you residents are in for a surprise because the loss of revenue will not be insignificant, and there will be unintended consequences...

Scott
 
I think the outfall will be that resident tag prices will go up and the price of LO tags will too. Just saying..
 
I'll share a couple of comments based on watching the debate prior to the vote. First, the three senators that voted No brought up several interesting points about why they were opposed to the bill, but none of them brought up the most important one that all of us NRs here at MM have been saying and that seems obvious - that simple economics and competition with states that are now more attractive to us could cause the NM draw system to implode economically. They all seemed to think that this new system is going to RAISE revenue, based on the bean-counters. Perhaps that is why government budgets are in the tank. No one has any common sense anymore. Did no one in the legislature even take a straw poll to find out whether or not we NRs would continue to apply versus moving on to another state?

Secondly, Munoz, the bill's author, kept saying that requiring applicants to pay for a hunting license before applying for the draw was common in other western states. To my knowledge, only UT and AZ require it. That's hardly common. Also, it reminded me of a phrase I heard ALOT during my teen years from my mother - "if your friends were all jumping off the Main Street bridge, would you want to do that, too?"

Scott
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-11
>AT 09:09?PM (MST)
>
>NMPaul - does this bill no
>scare most educated residents?
>You're getting 6% back at
>what cost? If NRs
>exit the draw system who
>will be left to fill
>the budget gaps? Maybe
>NM budgets will survive, but
>for 6% more plus some
>cow tags playing with this
>fire is worth it?
>
>I personally won't apply in NM
>in 2012 and beyond if
>it passes. It has
>nothing to do with "taking
>my ball and going home"
>or being a "cry baby".
> It's financial common sense
>for me personally.
>
>$100's of non-refundable fees, no point
>system and 6% of the
>permits available?! It doesn't
>take a 5 yr old
>to figure out that's not
>the best use of my
>funds. Thanks, but no thanks
>- I will choose to
>take my hard earned money
>elsewhere.


First I think that DIY NRs got the shaft.

That being said, I do not see the doom and gloom being forecast by some regarding missing NR funds.

There is still 16% going to NRs. That = $$

When NM put elk tags at $770 a while back I thought it was way to high.
Did not stop anyone from paying for them.

No state has found the ceiling for what they can charge for a tag or other ways to extort money out of hunters if they offer quality hunts.

They could raise the elk tag to $1000 and the good units will still get drawn.
They can charge $100 for a hunting license if you apply and people still will.

This has been proven again and again in state after state.

All they got to do is raise the prices and they will fill any shortfalls.

It happens in other states that offer sub standard hunting opportunities and they still sell their tags.

NM is no longer the best state for NR DIY that are looking for quality elk hunts (dont say CO is better, because the quality does not come even close).
But, it is by far not the worse regardless of some of the comments.

So to answer your question, if G&F is creative it should not change a thing financially.

They definitely should increase the cost of Resident tags across the board to help cover any shortfalls. Just about every resident that has commented on this forum has said they are willing to pay more for better odds, so it is time for them to put their money where their mouth is.

If there is a single businessman in NM G&F, they can cover the shortfall and increase their revenue by 10%.
That is my opinion, I could be wrong. :)
 
Paul:

You bring up some good points and examples, but there is one key observation missing in your analysis. For NRs, your new law increases the cost to enter, significantly reduces the odds of drawing, and has no point system to make the investment pay off eventually. That trio of factors is the perfect storm that puts NM pretty far down the list of favorable states for us NRs. To use a financial analogy, it now takes a much bigger initial investment, with a much poorer return, with no FDIC-like insurance against a total loss.

Just think of it like this. You go to your bank one day, and the teller informs you that future deposits to your account could now result in a total loss, but if you're really lucky, you could win big. And, oh, by the way, the funds are no longer FDIC insured. Would you say "Oh, no problem, my wallet is bottomless", or would you withdraw your funds and walk over to the bank across the street?

This could be a big deal, or like you said, it could blow over and be fixed by raising resident fees, but only time will reveal the full impact of SB 196...

Scott
 
>The fiscal report showed zero drop
>in NR applicants.

I saw that. That's like Obamanomics...

Scott
 
I guess I'm done applying in NM. I will be curious to see what happens to them financially. Oregon and Idaho are losing revenue. Wonder what state is next?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-11 AT 11:13PM (MST)[p]Oregon had a revenue increase last year when we increased nr fees. Fewer nr hunters and more money.
What makes it work here is even though it costs 150 to buy the license and apply, if you don't draw you can hunt the otc areas so you still can hunt. The tag does cost about 500 now though.
 
Gator, there is no "my side". Nm manages their wildlife for their residents. Not Oregon residents, not Colorado residents. They make the rules and I abide by them.
They increased the opportunity for all residents, which includes outfitters and guides, and I don't have an issue with it. I would expect them to take care of their own first, then give the nr what was left over.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-11 AT 05:45AM (MST)[p]Should have a competition to replace "Land of Enchantment" slogan at welcome center signs.

New Mexico officially crowned new USA capital of King's Hunting Rules, Public Land Prostitution & Outfitter Welfare.

Congratulations.
 
Thought I would run the numbers quick.....

Using last years elk draw stats...

14074 applicants would yield $915000 in license fees (@$65)

3910 NR drew last year, it would be 2697 w/new %, or 1213 less total NR tags.

Using $600 per tag NR and $100 per for R, that yields a loss of $606500 (@$500 difference per tag)

That means that the "system" would net NMGF +$310000.

Translation is for it to backfire the NR applicants would have to decrease by 33% or more?

Time will tell, I just wish I could have drawn before now!

For me, the worst part is the increased competition that will no doubt bleed over to the other states that I hunt/apply in.
 
All I know is that we here in NM will be just fine and I will still be pulling a tag every year! I do feel bad for the DIY's you guys did get screwed on this one.
 
>If it passes I won't even
>apply this year and most
>I know won't I think
>they will know what the
>impact is real quick. Point
>system coming up to beg
>the NR to come back.
>That is the only positive
>of it.
_________________________________________

Keep that kind of talk up and we'll lynch you - NM style.
DIY NR really did get the short end of this stick. If Susana signs it you'll just have to live with it for two years before anything can be done about it.




"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"
 
>>WAA WAA WAA! You guys sound
>>like my 5 year old.
>>I'll believe that you wont
>>put in NM when I
>>see it. Bunch of cry
>>babies. To be upset is
>>one thing, but to take
>>your ball and leave attitude
>>is frickin hillarious.
>
>Take our ball and leave?
>I think it's more like
>the ball's been moved to
>a new court by your
>legislature, and that court is
>at an exclusive country club
>that won't let us out-of-state
>hicks in.
>
>Look, it's simple economics and capitalism
>for most of us NRs.
> It just does not
>make sense to pay a
>lot of money for a
>small chance at a tag
>in one state when there
>are much better options available.
> Options where bonus and/or
>preference points mean that your
>investment is guaranteed to eventually
>pay off.
>
>You can call us NRs names
>if that makes you feel
>better, but time will tell
>whether or not your legislature
>has pushed NRs too far.
> If it has, you
>residents are in for a
>surprise because the loss of
>revenue will not be insignificant,
>and there will be unintended
>consequences...
>
>Scott


Dont get me wrong here, I'm not a fan of this bill, but the reactions from you NR are cracking me up. I persoanlly do not think this bill will affect revenue the way you do. Sure it might go down,but i dont think it will be dramatic. My opinion.
 
Just in case you NR's didn't notice, you're still getting 16% of NM tags. I agree that the DIY NR's got the shaft, but overall, NM is still being generous with the NR allottment. You should really be complaining to the outfitter lobbyists. They're the ones that took "your" tags.

Cheers.
 
I never thought this thing would pass the senate. I guess my senators don't listen to my voice.

I just ran some #'s for new drawing odds: for example Unit 16C 1st rifle elk has 50 total tags. 84 % = 42, 10% = 5, 6% = 3. Odds didn't change much more than 1% for anyone.

Since all the NR guys on MM will not be putting in, I guess my NR buddies can get the 3 guarnteed tags in 16C.

Thanks, I can't wait to go hunting with them!!

"you know I'm kidding, right"?

Worse yet, look at the youth only 16C hunt.

For the jackwagon who wanted to eliminate/reduce quality youth hunts... well you got your wish. At least for NR DIY kids.

"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"
 
If ya can't beat em join em..... looking for a house and land in NM south of I40 as we speak.
 
Jackwagon...One of my favorite "names", anyway leave the youth stuff alone and do a little house cleaning on the mobility impaired hunts. Kind of like my buddy that has a crossbow waiver in Iowa due to shoulder problems. There is not a damn thing with his shoulder, yet he can use that waiver to apply in most/all state archery draws!
 
Ungrateful people. Who knows what will happen down the road, but I for one am glad that NM is looking out for its residents' opportunities. I am 24 and since I was 16 years old have drawn one deer tag and one elk tag. I have never drawn an antelope, or oryx tag, and have never put in for the other species because of my location and general lack of interest. I am a muley and elk fanatic and have not had the opportunity to hunt elk in 5 years and deer in 4. Call me selfish, call me an idiot for not paying attention to the financial repercussions (if there are any), wish bad luck upon me for years to come, but when I see that green "Successful" status next to my name, you NR's will be the least of my worries. I had to work through college, am still paying off student loans, and cannot afford to start playing the point game in UT or AZ and can't pay $590 for an OTC tag in CO. So go ahead and change up your NR laws to spite us New Mexicans, it wont affect me because I don't hunt in your state.

Sorry for the rant, but I absolutely love this state and when I hear people talking bad about us it makes my blood boil. Good luck on the draw.


Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-11 AT 11:27AM (MST)[p]
Extracted the following words from TerynItUp's post:

"> I I I I I me selfish me idiot bad I my I me I I bad my"

This is a good reflection of why hunting is going where it is. Folks like SFW & Outfitters destroying a good thing while residents like this sit back and only think about the short-term ramifications to themselves.

The fact is they can't see the forest for the trees.

Nonresidents will never have power over an in-state special interest group. The only end to this is if residents stand up and drive out crooks like SFW & the Outfitters Assoc. Telling nonresidents to do it is just plain rediculous.

Montana did it. So can you if you really wanted to.
 
Zim, "where its going"...... Where the hell is it now? If an out of stater who has some dough can hunt in MY state 3-4 x's more than I can, you really think I am happy with where it is NOW? Hell no I'm not. Why should us residents be the sacrificial lambs so NR's who can afford it can hunt here? Would you be willing to do that for me in your home state?


Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-11 AT 09:50AM (MST)[p]i argued in the favor of keeping the NR quota at 20 percent with 10% to each pool, with particular interest in maintaining the Unguided NR at 10%....this stance certainly does not make me very popular with MANY of my fellow residents, but I am thinking in terms of PRACTICAL economics (not projected speculative conjecture)

and while I am aware that it doesn't necessarily represent the perspective of the whole, reading garbage like Zim sprays around here inclines me to start thinking to hell with em! NO amount of money would EVER again buy such a fellow welcome to my home, certainly

well anyway, looks like the formidable brain trust at Santa Fe is continuing to operate well within its typical Special Ed capacity eh?

show me the goddamned MONEY...
 
Come to think of it, from now on I am writing mandatory hunting license fees associated with big game draws off on my taxes as charitable contributions!!!
 
>Ungrateful people. Who knows what will
>happen down the road, but
>I for one am glad
>that NM is looking out
>for its residents' opportunities. I
>am 24 and since I
>was 16 years old have
>drawn one deer tag and
>one elk tag. I have
>never drawn an antelope, or
>oryx tag, and have never
>put in for the other
>species because of my location
>and general lack of interest.
>I am a muley and
>elk fanatic and have not
>had the opportunity to hunt
>elk in 5 years and
>deer in 4. Call me
>selfish, call me an idiot
>for not paying attention to
>the financial repercussions (if there
>are any), wish bad luck
>upon me for years to
>come, but when I see
>that green "Successful" status next
>to my name, you NR's
>will be the least of
>my worries. I had to
>work through college, am still
>paying off student loans, and
>cannot afford to start playing
>the point game in UT
>or AZ and can't pay
>$590 for an OTC tag
>in CO. So go ahead
>and change up your NR
>laws to spite us New
>Mexicans, it wont affect me
>because I don't hunt in
>your state.
>
>Sorry for the rant, but I
>absolutely love this state and
>when I hear people talking
>bad about us it makes
>my blood boil. Good luck
>on the draw.
>
>
>Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean.
>Apologize to No One.

__________________________________________________________

Teryn - I am also a resident of NM. It sounds like you are doing cartwheels because SB196 passed the Senate.

I want to know why you are so happy and WHY you think you will now see GREEN in your draw results.

Have you looked to see how much your draw odds just increased? Since you call yourself a "fanatic" I think it's safe to assume that you're not after "Cow" elk, you're after antlers.

NONE of the quality Deer OR Elk hunts had their odds improved enough to matter. SB196 WILL NOT make you see green any more often that you would see Green before SB196. I see you live in NW NM, if you are trying to draw tags in Unit 2 you really should look to see that the odds for drawing Unit 2 anything will not increase. We as residents have gained nothing other than a few cow elk tags, the WMA hunts & a few tags here & there, but not enough to make a difference in any quality unit.

SB196 is a poor stab at creating a solution to the real problem.

If you want to hunt quality deer & elk in our home state, then I strongly suggest you help support the suggestions I proposed in "The Best Possible Solution". We'll have to wait until next year's hoopla in the house & senate and then wait another year for it to all take effect, but in two years with enough support, we CAN make a real difference.

Your bashing of NR hunters is ill advised. What have these people really done to hurt your chances of drawing a tag? Nothing! It's not the NR hunters, they are just like you & I, but happen to live in a different state. I have met many of them while out in the woods & also on MM who I have helped them choose areas, provided current information about the units they drew for & I'm telling you... in all of my experiences with NR hunters, they have all been very gracious and honorable in their actions.

It's like you are picking a fight in a bar with the guitar player, rather than the drunk idiot that's causing the problems.

Choose your fights more wisely & your voice will make a difference.




"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"
 
So I put in for archery elk unit 53 and the draw odds here say as a resident in 2010 I had a 37.3% draw odds. Non-residents for the same hunt had a 20.3% non-guided and 100% guided opportunity.

So give me a break that that you can't afford a one time $65 license fee when your draw odds will only go down slightly. And for the record, you will pay that $65 once per license year and can put in for all the species you want. And if you don't draw you will get a refund!
 
You need to eliminate all private tags in your state if you care about the future of hunting for the average Joe. No outfitter tags and no landowner tags. I think you residents can do whatever you want with your game so no issues with me but after many years of hunting there I am giving up. Not because of this law but because I don't like all the private tags which make hunting a commodity. Good luck in the draws.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-11
>AT 11:13?PM (MST)
>
>Oregon had a revenue increase last
>year when we increased nr
>fees. Fewer nr hunters and
>more money.
>What makes it work here is
>even though it costs 150
>to buy the license and
>apply, if you don't draw
>you can hunt the otc
>areas so you still can
>hunt. The tag does cost
>about 500 now though.


There is a difference. Guys have been applying in Oregon for 10+ years and have points built up. They don't want to lose the investment that they have made. I would bet once the non res dump their points in Oregon at least 50% quit applying. Why apply for a crappy hunt that takes 20+ years to draw with the allocation that Oregon has?

New Mexico there is nothing to lose by not applying there anymore. In New Mexico you don't invest, you buy a lotto ticket.

You do have a point about the fact Oregon has otc tags if you don't draw.
 
As a nr. this a crying shame. I only hunted new mexico twice, the residents of new mexico are some of the greatest , nicest people I have ever ran into . I do think 20% is two much for n.r. I think they should go with straight up 10% for all n.r. hunters. The guieded draw should be gone, If you are gonna hire a outfitter , your gonna hire an outfitter . there will be no shortage of that I assure you. the way it is now is not fare . the rich get spacial draw odds with the outfitter, then if they dont draw , they can go down and dump 4000.00 on a elk tag and go hunting, its hard for the working class guy to hunt out of state, any state. so guys let not bash each other over state politics, any trophy hunt is gonna take time to draw and odds will always be against you, I will be happy to just try to get a tag or two in the next ten years or so . thats trophy hunting. we all need to be on the same page far as hunters ,we are all americans , well most of us. this what turns on the anti hunting crowd fighting agaisnt each other rights . also this what they do in war , to win get the population to not trust each other . hopfuly we all will be able hunt in the future, they way its going , we all will be nr. to the u.s.
 
It is a shame that this bill passed. I hope it is not a trend for other States. Oh well I will be hunting deer in Wyoming where last year 55% of thier deer tags went to Non-Residents.
 
Well sorry DIYrs, it appears the welfare board had too much push ($$$$$$$). OF should have not been considered in this bill, but 10% shows that they had a lot of pull.
 
Kansas isn't wasting anytime!!! They have a house bill up to raise the maximum NR biggame tag fee to $800!!!!!!!!!!! Not that it will go to that, but it would give the KDFGP the ability to!

Guess my state (Iowa) needs to go to $1000 for a NR deer tag as it is the big buck mecca......what a crock! Iowa already charges NR too much! Wonder what the success for NR (unguided) is in Iowa?
 
Gambler, I am not trying to bash any NR's at all, I believe they are doing the bashing, hence my anger. I am not sure about your math either, yes I hunt the 2's. For instance, hunt code DER-1-111 has 450 tags available, at 78% that is 351 tags while at 84% there are 387. That is 36 more tags in residents pockets. Good news.

Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-11 AT 12:03PM (MST)[p]TerynItUp,

>Zim, "where its going"...... Where the
>hell is it now? If
>an out of stater who
>has some dough can hunt
>in MY state 3-4 x's
>more than I can, you
>really think I am happy
>with where it is NOW?
>Hell no I'm not. Why
>should us residents be the
>sacrificial lambs so NR's who
>can afford it can hunt
>here? Would you be willing
>to do that for me
>in your home state?

You are just a pup so I don't expect you to know how to get things done. But let me ask you.....What have you done to fight the rediculous landowner and outfitter lobbies in your state that will be diverting 35% of your state's hunting tags to wealthy nonresidents leaving Joe NR Hunter with 5% and Joe Resident Hunter with only 60% ? (Correct me on the exact figures, but should be close)

Have you joined any organizations in opposition to these special interest groups? Have you organized any yourself?

Or do you just worry about your own short-term hunting ambitions?

BTW - I am a former board member of the largest conservation organization in my home state. Chiefly responsible for lobbying for and winning restoration of the largest wetlands in the United States, among other numerous projects.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-11 AT 12:11PM (MST)[p]TerynItUp:

According to the most recent data available (last season), there were 465 tags available for DER-1-111. The old split was 363 for residents, 46 for non-guided NR, and 56 for guided NR. For those tags, the applicant pool was 6403 residents, 1070 non-guided NRs, and 272 guided NRs. That put the draw odds at 5.7% for residents, 4.3% for non-guided NR, and 20.6% for guided NR. If you use the new split, there will be 391 tags for residents, 28 tags for non-guided NRs, and 46 tags for guided NRs. If the same people apply, the draw odds will be 6.1% for residents, 2.6% for non-guided NRs, and 16.9% for guided NRs. Here's a summary:

Residents go from 5.7% to 6.1% chance of drawing
Non-guided NRS go from 4.3% to 2.6% chance of drawing
Guided NRs go from 20.6% to 16.9% chance of drawing

Another way to state this is to apply statistics:

Residents go from drawing every 17.5 years to every 16.4 years
Non-guided NRS go from drawing every 23.3 years to every 38.5 years
Guided NRs go from drawing every 4.9 years to every 5.9 years

Your odds as a resident were barely improved, but mine as a non-resident went from possible within my hunting lifetime to not possible within my lifetime. Why would I spend more money on a $65 license if it's not statistically possible to draw before the end of my years pursuing game (keeping in mind that other states have points systems that virtually guarantee me a tag at some point)? And there are a lot of NR hunters like me coming to the same conclusion...

Edited to add: As much as I don't want it, I predict a points system in NM's future...

Scott
 
Ya I am so sure that all you NR hunters are so concerned with our economic situation. If you wnt to help out in other ways im sure you can come visit one of the other many tourist attractions we offer in the state. Maybe Carlsbad Caverns?? take the family maybe to White Sands? If you wanna see an Oryx take the tour to the Trinity site. Now that sounds fun right taking in a little history lesson and enjoying the wildlife. Oh and to donate more, enjoy the states best burger in nearby San Antonio. This state holds some of the best hunting in he country. The Gila National Forest, The Valles Caldera, Valle Vidal,and lets not forget White Sands again for the beautiful Oryx. (Unless you wanna pay thousands to go to Africa??).Its time the state of New Mexico to take care of its own. This state has been more than generous with NR hunters. Hell we dont even have a point system like Arizona or Colorado. Why dont you go complain to them. Everybody wants to come to New Mexico to hunt then appreciate that we even give you what we have given you over the years. If you dont like the rules then hunt elsewhere. Its bad enough that all these Texans and Californians come take our land, now you want more of our recreation too?? If you are so concerned with our well being im sure there is other ways you can help us out. im sorry you feel like your being treated unfairly, but hey last I remember life isnt so fair. Im sure you are all big boys and can deal with this.
 
TerynItUp I didn't see any bashing of resident hunters. I did see bashing of outfitters and the NM government.

I see this hurting game department revenues. I don't know if anybody has noticed but our economy is in the shitter. 370,000 new people applied for unemployment last week. 1,184,000 new people applied in the last 3 weeks. At this rate it will be 1.5 mil new people on unemployment in a month.

The economy is getting worse and hunters are going to stay home with no incentive to apply. (6% of the tags, no points, no otc tags, no cow tags)

This is just my opinion.
 
>If ya can't beat em join
>em..... looking for a house
>and land in NM south
>of I40 as we speak.
>
__________________________________

That's the BEST response yet!!

Come on over!




"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"
 
Not me. I have no desire to visit NM. Been there done that and won't miss it. We have just as good hunting here at home and not as many drunks in the Safeway parking lots. I have always said you give out too many NR tags. It should be 10% and no special consideration for a private business selling your animals.
 
>Gambler, I am not trying to
>bash any NR's at all,
>I believe they are doing
>the bashing, hence my anger.
>I am not sure about
>your math either, yes I
>hunt the 2's. For instance,
>hunt code DER-1-111 has 450
>tags available, at 78% that
>is 351 tags while at
>84% there are 387. That
>is 36 more tags in
>residents pockets. Good news.
>
>Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean.
>Apologize to No One.
____________________________________________________-

DOH! You can't be serious!

You are talking in circles. 1st you said you will be happy to see GREEN.. therefore you are talking about odds. so here's the breakdown...

465 total tags to Der-1-111
78% = 363 to residents = 5.6% odds to draw
84% = 391 to residents = 6.1% odds to draw

YOU WILL NOT DRAW ANY MORE TAGS FOR THIS HUNT BECAUSE OF SB196 IN YOUR LIFETIME. You & I will most likely NOT be one of the lucky 28 out of 6403 residents who get the additional tags.

I thought you said you went to college? You should understand this. It's basic math & basic supply and demand.


BTW, I miss your grandpaw. He was a great man.




"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-11 AT 01:45PM (MST)[p]Sab, your numbers are off.

The guided pools will now include residents.
 
Just as good hunting? I can see your point, but .. AZ gives out a fraction of the overall tags as NM. The hunting may be considered very slighlty better, in like 3 units, but how long does it take to draw that Unit 10 tag in AZ? 10 years? As a NM resident I can draw an equally good tag almost every year, give or take. And if AZ hunting is that much better, why do the NM Gila units get overun with Arizonans year after year who were angry about not getting to hunt in their home state? just sayin
 
I never said it was better but it isn't bad and I have drawn 2 bull tags and 3 cow tags in the last 8 years so it is decent and the units I hunt have plenty of elk. Hunt deer and turkey every year. I am glad you have better opportunity but we have a large population and only the upper part of the state will hold elk so it is what it is. Like I said they are your animals so you can do what is best for your voters with them. I have no say in the matter.
 
Terynitup,


No worries bud. This forum has become a NR's bitc*ing and crying post. I'm with you 100%. Again, outfitters still have a 10% pool....so again I point the pissed off NR's (and apparently some residents as well) that direction. It should be one pool, regardless if it's DIY or Guided. Period. But it's easier to ##### at you and me and every other resident that voices any enthusiasm about what's going on as opposed to taking up that battle. Hell, if they were really ballsy...they'd attack the landowner tag allottment as well. Now there's a really shady game being played there.

FastGambler....according to your math there are 28 additional tags. Last time I checked 28 additional tags (IN THAT ONE UNIT)...is 28 additional residents who get to stomp around in their home state and chase a muley. 28 residents who spend money to help our "crashing" economy. 28 residents who have a chance next yr that didn't have a chance this year. 28 residents who get to chase a quality deer in a quality unit in NM. Sounds like a good deal to whoever those lucky 28 are. You can punch in and calculate stats all day long. The bottom line is, and your math prowess shows it....more residents will be in the field, period. Since your a math wiz, why don't you run the numbers across the entire state for elk and deer with the additional 6% and see how many MORE lucky residents will get to hunt. I'm sure those residents that draw those newly appropriated tags will be grateful for it...whether it's 1, 5 or 50. Personally, I'd rather see 1 lucky and grateful resident than 3 or 4 ungrateful NR's...especially a few that chime in on the NM forum.

Time to go find some sheds and enjoy the spring weather.

Good luck in the upcoming draws guys. Everyone still has this year before "doom and gloom" sets in.

Cheers,

Another resident "pup"
 
>Sab, your numbers are off.
>The guided pools will now include
>residents.

WapitiBob:

You're right. However, as you can see from the numbers, not many people apply for those tags now, and I doubt that many residents will apply for them when they're available due to the cost of a guided hunt. I did the best comparison I could with available data.

Scott
 
>FastGambler....according to your math there are
>28 additional tags. Last time
>I checked 28 additional tags
>(IN THAT ONE UNIT)...is 28
>additional residents who get to
>stomp around in their home
>state and chase a muley.
>28 residents who spend money
>to help our "crashing" economy.
>28 residents who have a
>chance next yr that didn't
>have a chance this year.
>28 residents who get to
>chase a quality deer in
>a quality unit in NM.
>Sounds like a good deal
>to whoever those lucky 28
>are. You can punch in
>and calculate stats all day
>long. The bottom line is,
>and your math prowess shows
>it....more residents will be in
>the field, period. Since your
>a math wiz, why don't
>you run the numbers across
>the entire state for elk
>and deer with the additional
>6% and see how many
>MORE lucky residents will get
>to hunt. I'm sure those
>residents that draw those newly
>appropriated tags will be grateful
>for it...whether it's 1, 5
>or 50. Personally, I'd rather
>see 1 lucky and grateful
>resident than 3 or 4
>ungrateful NR's...especially a few that
>chime in on the NM
>forum.
>
>Time to go find some sheds
>and enjoy the spring weather.
>
>
>Good luck in the upcoming draws
>guys. Everyone still has this
>year before "doom and gloom"
>sets in.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Another resident "pup"

________________________________________________________________

Look, I may have been a little too hard on teryn, but my energy on this topic is from a pure love of hunting and a deep desire to make things better for all of us.

I would never discredit the signifigance of the additional 6 % of the tags that we now have. I whole-heartedly agree that this part of SB196 is a positive. I just don't agree with the rest of this bill because there is a much-much better way to get what we want.

Yes, 6% more residents will be in the field with tags in their pockets in 2012.

No, our "odds" aren't any better - at least not enough to rejoyce over.

I really hope that everyone understood my point about the change being so insignifigant regarding any one individuals drawing odds.

How often you, Teryn, or I will draw that coveted 2b late rifle deer tag WILL NOT CHANGE. Period.

If you really want to improve YOUR drawing odds... please reply to "The Best Possible Solution" post.

P.S. I am NOT a math wiz. Jackwagon maybe, but math wiz, NO. :)


Only 6 more days until we get to see our Oryx draw results!!

Good luck!

"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"
 
Sportsman01 & Terynitup,

Can you guys answer my questions?

What have you personally done to fight the rediculous landowner and outfitter lobbies in your state that will be diverting 35% of your state's hunting tags to wealthy nonresidents leaving Joe NR Hunter with 5% and Joe Resident Hunter with only 60% ? (Correct me on the exact figures, but should be close)

Have you joined any organizations in opposition to these special interest groups? Have you organized any yourself?

Or do you just worry about your own short-term hunting ambitions?

Of course I assume you already know it is up to the residents to do this considering NM politicians aren't going to listen to anything NR's have to say about it. They don't represent them.

BTW - I am a former board member of the largest conservation organization in my home state. Chiefly responsible for lobbying for and winning restoration of the largest wetlands in the United States, among other numerous projects.

Thanks kindly.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-11 AT 05:40PM (MST)[p]^what the hell are you repeating your drivel for, Zim?

or is it that YOU would advise us wretched new mexicans as to what way WE might obtain maximum benefit from our world class wildlife resources??

well go ahead, Wetland Lobby Chief... what the heck do ya know? and please don't hesitate to just cut to the chase and tell us all how it 'should be' down here

So how about it? let's hear your 'expertise'...
 
>When would this go into effect?
>

Deerlove:

The legislation states that it applies starting with the 2012 draw for the 2012-13 hunting season. It still has to pass through the NM House and be signed by the Governor to become law, but that's likely to happen quickly and easily.

Scott
 
SFW will hold NM up next. I doubt it was unnoticed how easy this heist went over.
 
greatwestern,

What have you personally done?

All I can say is if I lived somewhere that sold off 35% of my states tags to only wealthy nonresidents via special interst groups I would not be sitting on my hands. At minimum I'd look for an instate organization to fight it.

Our organization doesn't even take state aid like SFW. We did everything via donations and still do. We have accomplished a lot over the years. Just have to get involved politically and take action.
 
I see. In other words, you have done absolutely nothing.

Attitudes like that is why you are stuck with only 60%, & NR 5%. And also why things are likely to tighten up for you in the states around you. And in 10 years you will still be wondering why, as you sit on your hands.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-11 AT 10:02PM (MST)[p]hey, what can i tell ya? you seem to have me all figured out there, Sherlock ;)

so what do ya know, Zim? help us out and give us poor suckers the scoop, eh?
 
Zim,
Talk about beating a dead horse.You keep saying how fair
other states are,yet you are sitting on 255 points so how did the WY draw treat you?It just gets old seems like you have way more issues in your life than hunting.If you really wanted to hunt you would burn some points...
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-11
>AT 12:03?PM (MST)
>
>TerynItUp,
>
>>Zim, "where its going"...... Where the
>>hell is it now? If
>>an out of stater who
>>has some dough can hunt
>>in MY state 3-4 x's
>>more than I can, you
>>really think I am happy
>>with where it is NOW?
>>Hell no I'm not. Why
>>should us residents be the
>>sacrificial lambs so NR's who
>>can afford it can hunt
>>here? Would you be willing
>>to do that for me
>>in your home state?
>
>You are just a pup so
>I don't expect you to
>know how to get things
>done. But let me
>ask you.....What have you done
>to fight the rediculous landowner
>and outfitter lobbies in your
>state that will be diverting
>35% of your state's hunting
>tags to wealthy nonresidents leaving
>Joe NR Hunter with 5%
>and Joe Resident Hunter with
>only 60% ? (Correct
>me on the exact figures,
>but should be close)
>
>Have you joined any organizations in
>opposition to these special interest
>groups? Have you organized
>any yourself?
>
>Or do you just worry about
>your own short-term hunting ambitions?
>
>
>BTW - I am a former
>board member of the largest
>conservation organization in my home
>state. Chiefly responsible for
>lobbying for and winning restoration
>of the largest wetlands in
>the United States, among other
>numerous projects.


BTW - Go hunt ducks then.....
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-11 AT 11:55PM (MST)[p]^actually they do have...its just that these 'premier' species are not subject to the R/NR quotas that are the main points of contention in this discussion

so no, 1Man...such hunts will not be affected; and remain for now under current regulation

also, NONE of this coming season's quota hunts (deer, elk, antelope) will be impacted by this new legislation

Good Luck
 
Actually they don't. Nm can't impose any tag quotas on those species until the Attorney General decides to challenge the ruling that led to the no quota, and then he has to win.
 
That would be good if they dont subject the Oryx,Ibex,Barbary to those EVILNR quotas. I've already got a big Barbary, took my Oryx last weekend, so now all I need me is one of them there big Ibexes. After that NM can ........I'm just sayin.
I'll get my Elk,Deer,Antelope elsewhere.
 
If I was a NM resident, I would not be cheering. Not only did your odds not improve much, your tag costs are going to sky rocket in the next three or four years. I wouldn't be surprised to see your quality elk units start to charge $200 or more for a resident tag. Or, they will get the money out of you by charging more for the "hunting License" just to apply.

Looks like this year will be my last year applying in New Mexico. You can call it what you want, but the amount of non-residents applying will decrease dramatically. The state will get their revenue back somewhere, resident hunters will be the next in line to get screwed. You can thank the guaranteed outfitter tags for the DIY hunters not applying. 6% is a joke. NM just went from one of the most friendly to out of state hunters to one of the worst.
 
Actually, the NM Game and Fish got a letter from the AG's office in regards to Ibex, Oryx, and Bighorn. The Game and Fish does have the right to put the new quotas on those hunts to.
 
Im a NR DIY when it comes to New Mexico. I believe NM has the fairest drawing as that it has no points. The draw odds probably won't change to much as there will be people dropping out because of required fees. The Unit I put in for is a tough draw and will still be a tough draw. I have hunted 2b 4 times in less then ten years so I feal very fortunate.

NM needs to take care of their residents first. I always thought NR got to high of a percentage of the tags anyways. Good for me but really not fair to the residents.

Anyways I love hunting in the great state of New Mexico. The people we have encountered have been very nice and helpful.
 
Wow....I havent spent much time on MM for the past several months. Kinda drifted away from it and now I remember why. To damn many..... know it all..... whiners..... on this sight.

I'll just point out a couple of things here. I am a resident of NM, and I have lived in a couple of other western states.

With that said, I have a couple of obsevations. NM will still hand out more (as a percentage) NR tags than most other western elk states. I saw the mentions of Wyo and Montana, both of which have far fewer residents and far more elk, deer, antelope, etc.....Those two states absolutely rely on NR's to fill their coffers. Why didn't any of the whiners mention AZ or UT as a more apples to apples comparison????? Go ahead, good luck up in WY and MT, CO, they'er great places to hunt. Remember to pack your cold weather gear.....suckers

Secondly, and mark my words, for every little whiner on this MM site whos NOT gonna apply for the draw here in NM, there will be 30-50 NR's who will replace you. Good riddance WHINERS. Eastmans and several other publications will help see to that. I know a jillion NR's who just want the chance to hunt elk ANYWHERE once in their lives. Some % of them will fill the bill here. We're not gonna miss all 9 of you. HA HA HA

I've helped out numerous NR's over the years. Most of them are good and decent people. I put an aquaintance from TX on a nice 340 class bull last fall. He had the time of his life. After reading this thread I'm gonna be a bit more selective about who I give information to.
 
Out of this, I am most looking "forward" to what the unit wide Gila landowner tags go for after this year? Should be fun to "watch"!
 
Evil,

Referring back to my post #24. I don't personally think that NMFG will have any less money in the long run? But I have been wrong before. More likely to add $ to the NR if there is a shortfall!

Just thought of something though, what if they did apply the quotas to Oryx, and WSMR didn't like it and closed the gates?
 
OUCH! wouldnt that be a shame, Oh well I've got mine.
Kinda hard to make up the shortfalls with the NR when there arent any applying - including me.
 
>Zim,
> Talk about beating a dead
>horse.You keep saying how fair
>
>other states are,yet you are sitting
>on 255 points so how
>did the WY draw treat
>you?It just gets old seems
>like you have way
>more issues in your life
>than hunting.If you really wanted
>to hunt you would burn
>some points...

Where did I mention how "fair" other states are? There's not one single point among my 255 that haven't been cheapened along the way. Would be very nice for some stability and consideration though.
 
With all the NR boycotting NM maybe all us evil residents will get even 6% more tags. Sweet!

It will get changed again and I will bet on it? It won't stick, anyways good luck to all who apply.
 
"Out of this, I am most looking "forward" to what the unit wide Gila landowner tags go for after this year? Should be fun to "watch"!"

I don't think that they will go up that much. Those tags are already $5-$7k on the open market. The ones driving that are the ones putting in with an outfitter, paying them $4k to $6k for a hunt, then paying up to get the landowner tag when they don't get drawn. Its a small group that can shell out $12k for an elk hunt annually, so until the economy turns up I don't think the competition for those will increase.

I think the tags on mediocre units where DIY opportunities are more readily available will see more buying interest. Hell if all us non-residents abandon the draw as promised, drawing odds might go UP with fewer tags in some units for NR DIY!
 
Great, were fine. I think we misunderstood each other.
I have not seen where the Game dept has thought about testing the waters on the 3 non quota species. If they have the money to go to court, they may want to try it.

Hunting tends to get most of us all twisted around the axle.
Chris may have been a little harsh but he's a good guy.
This topic isn't bringing out the best in any of us.

NM will be fine. As Paul mentioned, if there is a shortage, they'll figure out how to generate more income.
There is a finite number of tags, that cost a finite amount of money. If every tag is sold, the license fees are easily calculated. The only variable is number of applicants.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-11 AT 02:53PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-11 AT 02:29?PM (MST)

First off sorry so long.

Everybody please take thier seats. This bill has not passed!!!!! It has only passed the senate and at this point stands a more likely chance of dying in committee than being signed by the Governor. This bill is in no way on any fast track. It is in the house and has been assigned 2 committees. and current committee schedules doesn't have it scheduled as of today. Clock is ticking folks. I'm sure it will be heard in committee and may even make it out to the floor, but given the other bills in the house that are related, it will have amendments. ( I feel like that little smiling cartoon bill on how laws are made) It now will have to go back to the senate for approval whicyh will probably go back to the 2 senate committees for a dp or dnp then if it gets a dp or (do pass) it goes back to the senate floor for vote. again Clock is Ticking Folks!!

Now the amendments I see for it are
1. 1st choice first
2.Sit out a year.
Mr. Gambler Sit down. Please stop dancing.

If this happens with 1 big voice the hunting community should be heard to KILL THIS BILL!!!!!!

Actually the way it is now I hope it dies. The Straight forward 90/10 split would have been an equitable split overall. It would have given a small edge to residents (percentage wise). Thats what at issue draw percentage. Compare apples to apples. I see the math wizards say were causing all this trouble over a 1.5 percentage gain. Well how much loss is the NR going to see? About the same or maybe a little higher but not by much. Our state population has grown by leaps and bounds since the 78/22 split was passed. We have alot more resident hunters than we did back then. I supported this bill in its original form, not because it was fair but because its the right thing to do for the residents.

Now where did all this name calling start? It started with who ruined this bill. The outfitter lobby. Once Rumor of this bill got started that the outfitters started coming on here and saying the residents were stupid and greedy. 1 even went so far as to go on the Elk, Mule Deer and every other blog telling all non residents to go on to the nm site and tell us how greedy we are. Classic devide and conquer bravo mr nwrc or whatever those initials are. Unfortunately some not all of our NR friends took the bait. I'm sure the lobby went to the legislature saying theres an uproar and its unfair especially to us outfitters and were to big to fail wink wink nudge nudge. Now we have a bill that totally screws our nr friends. Residents get the shaft as well because this was not the intent. and Outfitters lose nothing because they still won't use all tage alotted to them and still enjoy 70% or better draw odds for most. Seems to me our NR friends are planning to boycott the wrong people. Oh yeah also doesn't is say all elk anterless license go to residents? Landowners, whats that going to do to your prices for cow licences?

Whats that Mr Gambler, why should we kill the bill if those amendments are included? Good question. 2 main reasons.

1. Because I don't agree with them, and neither should you Really. Fast, may I call you Fast Mr. Gambler, I read your best possible solution. There was 1 thing I really liked. In things to keep you said keep the true lottery aspect of the draw, I agree with you 100%. Just 1 little problem all of the other rules you came up with are in direct contrast of a true lottery system. Especially the 2 possible amendments. Right now as the draw is today, it is a true lottery. It is the fairest. No systems, no angles and no preferances. your app gets drawn you have 3 choices in order of most desirable to least and if any 1 of those is availble you get it. YOU GET 3 FIRST Choices Its like Christmas!!! It took me awhile to get used to and I whined too but I now like it. Its fair its efficient. We go back to 1st choice first, thats all you get because there aint much left after that and it limits you freedom to try new areas. Sitting out an Year you may see a slight increase in your draw percentage the 1st year but when in the long run its less whe you have the 0 on the year after. Scenerio you haven't drawn for 5 years. you draw you 3rd choice and you have to sit out the next year, thats more like salt in a wound than fair. I wont even get into 1 weapon choice per draw. Would you like to pick my hunting spot too.

2. All of #1 was my opinions. There is no doubt some of you will disagree. There does need to be discussion. That is what the commission is for. The Legislature has no business dictating that!!!!! Look how long it took them to look at 78/22 and now they f'd it up, partly our fault because we dont stand as 1. We're whiners all of us, they pass this and we don't like it, when do you think they'll look at it again 10 maybe 15 years? With the commission they meet 10 times a year as a opposed 5 times every decade it can be brought up in the legislature. So to the smart 1 who suggested these to thier legislators thanks alot.

I know I may piss some people off and you will call me names and point out I only have 20 some posts. whatever dont read it oops I guess its a little late for that.
 
Your 70% odds guesstimate isn't even close, and they already had wait periods on the drawing board and the plan was scrapped.

The bill will be passed as is and future changes will come from the Commission, as they should be.

The Legislature has no business making Game laws. Do you really want the legislature implementing a point system that only they can change? How 'bout a wait period?
 
"Hey Vichris, do us all a favor and drift away somewhere again."



Hey EVILNR Gary Youngblood. The truth must hurt if thats the best you can come up with.......ya WHINER. You know damn well that NR's have had it exceptionally good here in NM. If this bill passes as is NR's will still have it good.....but apparently not good enough for WHINERS like you. Just to confirm it I'll call you a damn LIAR...cause you know damn well yer gonna put in for the draw in NM. Or hopefully I've pissed you off enough to stay the hell outta here......JERK

OH and BTW NR's aren't inherently evil......but some sure come off as "entitled".
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-11 AT 05:11PM (MST)[p]well Bob, maybe we'd be able to afford it with them lost 6% of y'all evil NRs tag dollars :)

couldn't agree more about the primary fallacy of legislated game statutes...it has proven itself repeatedly to be an exceedingly cumbersome, archaic, and generally incompetent means of determining ANY aspect of game regulation
 

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