SF0085 tabled until Wednesdsay

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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5,971
Just got back from Cheyenne.

The testimony heard on SF0085 is over, but they tabled the decision until Wednesday regarding the bill passing the house committee.

Found out a few things regarding the bill. It appears, from talking to a group of Natrona County sportsmen, that they asked Senator Hicks to carry this bill for them.

Now would be a very good time to get your phone calls and emails sent in to the House TRW Committee one way or the other.

Senator Hicks is pretty hung up on the issue of a preference point system being "fair"...

Funny that he stormed off when I asked him whats "fair" about a landowner preference system where they dont have to have a single preference point to draw every single tag in the State of Wyoming, every single year.

He didnt want to talk about the fairness of that system...cat had his tongue I guess.

Get those emails and phone calls in...this ones going to be close I think.
 
BuzzH, thanks for the update. I am pretty sure I know several members belonging to the "group of Natrona County sportsmen." They don't do anything that doesn't benefit them. Then again, that is what this world is coming to.

I have never financial contributed to any politician. I will not forget to contribute to whomever is running against Senator Hicks next election!

BuzzH PM sent.
 
Maybe a quick list of who to contact via email or phone? Thanks a bunch. What about the others?
 
I just faxed a spread sheet of how to manipulate the point system to many members they will have a hard copy this afternoon
 
>I just faxed a spread sheet
>of how to manipulate the
>point system to many members
>they will have a hard
>copy this afternoon

If you're saying that the system will be manipulated by putting in for preference points for your non-hunting friends, family, etc., these legislators are likely going to say " at $20 per point, good news, more $$$ for the G&F"! Ka-ching!
 
BuzzH---I'm sending you a PM with an email response I already got back from Jaggi. Included are emails to him from Hicks asking for a getogether so he can give him a bunch of numbers (Yea, right!)and from another constituent against the Bill.
 
>Topgun, just curious, why are you
>so interested in a resident
>preference point bill.

Not speaking for topgun, but I also am speaking out against. I have several resident friends against the issue so I support my friends. I have seen how poorly the Co system has went and hope that WY can earn form my experience. Someday I will hopefully be a resident, which one of the biggest reasons is because the WY system is so awesome. Take away that system and there is decrease in value of becoming a resident. I also hate legislatures who lie, which I had happen to my face about this issue from the bills sponsor. form the outside looking in many resident hunter in WY do not realize how great it is that every year they have a chance at a top license versus me who every year says just 6 more years til I draw.
 
Just sent my input one more time. I really need to start working on the tag fee increases and the specials split.
 
Since I have not been following this bill can you guys tell me! Is this going to anything to the nr points or this bill setup for the res if it passes?
 
>Since I have not been following
>this bill can you guys
>tell me! Is this going
>to anything to the nr
>points or this bill setup
>for the res if it
>passes?

No it is intended to make the NR system the same system for residents... No real issue for NR here other than when we move to WY we can jump a head of the residents since our points should transfer with us.
 
Well that would be good for me since I have a girlfriend that I and thinking moving with in rock springs! And I already 5 points! I still hope it don't pass because I hate point systems!
 
A simple fix for that scenario would be to have non-residents moving to Wyoming with more than maximum points to have only max points relative to the new resident system. I bet that will likely happen if a new resident PP system does go through.
 
Well that suck in a way for me because of all the money that I have invested in pp for elk and deer antelope and moose and sheep!
 
I also took the opportunity to go testify today with Buzz. It was 2 versus 6 but we had fact and emotion and they had self-serving interests. I started to jot a few thoughts and ended up with a stinkin' novel. I took it and pretty much covered all of it during my testimony today. I also had the privilege of taking my 3 oldest daughters with me. They were awesome and I hope the youth aspect will help - other than Senator Hicks argued in his closing statements that youth not drawing tags was an easy fix: they could legislate a portion of the tags to go to youth only. I immediately stood and tried to shed light on that as well.........
Pretty frustrating, but entertaining. We need the support boys! Get the word out!


Here's my testimony from today:
I appreciate the opportunity to testify today on behalf of sportsmen all across this great state. My name is Cade Powell and I reside in Saratoga with my bride of 15 years and our 4 beautiful daughters. I apologized to their principle in advance, but there are some things you just can't learn in a classroom and I want them to have the opportunity and privilege of seeing government, by the people, in action. The last time I took them out of school for one of our educational outdoor escapades, I wrote a note and said they were going to be at the funeral of a DEER friend. McKenzie harvested a great mule deer that trip with Paige and I by her side. The next weekend she harvested a great pronghorn with Paige, Ashton, Rainey (their 6 year-old sister) and I all by her side. If they weren't all 4.0 students, those opportunities would be more limited. The way these girls can shoot, the school is starting to catch on and can't believe we have so many deer friends that keep passing away.
I want this committee to know that as a passionate Wyoming hunter, conservationist, father and mentor (to more than just my kids) that I am strongly opposed to SF085. In the eyes of the world I am not a rich man by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe in a few years I should move to a Pacific Island and trade these beautiful girls for a dowry of cows. I could be a WEALTHY, WEALTHY man. All joking aside, I do consider myself a wealthy man with the family I've been blessed with and the freedoms and opportunities that we have. In trying to set a good example for my girls, I try to educate myself on both sides of the aisle and stay up-to-date with all the happenings. I met with Senator Hicks last weekend to try and educate myself on his reasoning behind and desire to pass this bill. I came away from that meeting more convinced than ever that this is bad for Wyoming sportsmen and completely unacceptable to me as a sportsman with children who hunt.
I have heard several references to a WGFD survey that claims Wyoming hunters want a PP system for elk, deer and pronghorn. I even had a Senator in favor of this bill state that it was 80% who were in favor. I decided to educate myself and received a copy of this survey from WGFD. Here are a few of the most telling stats that I gleaned from this survey ? let me preface that in my opinion the survey is flawed in that the only options available are for a PP system or against a PP system. This was also conducted in 2008. In the last 4 years the # of hunters who have educated themselves on the issues with preference points has increased dramatically ? no I did not commission a survey or study to come to that conclusion. It's just my opinion :-D
I will read the most telling parts of that survey of Wyoming hunters: "In the most basic opinion question, support (54%) slightly exceeds opposition (45%) to having the Department implement a preference point system for Wyoming resident limited
quota deer, elk, and antelope licenses. Note that most opposition is strong opposition; support is about evenly divided between strong and moderate support." The first question from that survey may be the most telling. I believe it shows the true colors of Wyoming sportsmen, even those that believe they want a PP system. Here it is: "
I would rather have a small chance of drawing a license for a hard-to-draw area each year, instead of a nearly certain chance when I have received the maximum preference points needed for the area. Agreement (62%) is nearly double disagreement (33%) that
respondents would rather have a small chance of drawing a license each year (without the preference point system) than to have a nearly certain chance in other years (with a preference point system, when they have accumulated the maximum number of
preference points; the implication is that in other years when they do not have many preference points they would have almost no chance). In short, the majority of iv Responsive Management
respondents would rather take their chances without a preference point system, which gives them a small chance every year, rather than with a preference point system, which would give them no chance in some years but an excellent chance in other years.

The second most telling statistic from that survey is concerning our youth: "A preference point system limits the opportunity for youth to hunt in hard-to-draw areas. Agreement (76%) far exceeds disagreement (22%), meaning that most hunters think a
preference point system limits youth hunting opportunities in hard-to-draw areas."

Again this is a flawed survey, but some of the percentages are pretty telling.

Paige will be 12 this spring. McKenzie was taking the Hunter?s Education class when she was 11 and Paige asked if she could take it as well. I didn't think a 9 year-old girl had a chance and said yes, since we were already going to be in the class. Well, she got a 94% and McKenzie got a 100%. That spring I took her turkey hunting and she was able to harvest a big Greybull River gobbler. That fall she was able to harvest several grouse and even a few ducks. Ashton is signed up in the Hunter Mentor program and will have a Greybull River turkey tag in her pocket this spring along with Paige. Imagine their excitement in sitting down and filling out those forms and applications with their crazy ol? dad. Last year Kenzie studied the draw odds and units with me as we applied her for elk, deer and antelope. What a priceless opportunity.
This last month Paige approached me after scrutinizing the regulations to let me know how many elk, deer and pronghorn she could harvest this upcoming fall during her first big-game season. She also asked me about applying for moose, sheep and mtn. goat. We live ? mile off the beautiful North Platte at the base of the Snowy Mtn. range. We go for drives up the mountain just to look at the moose. I wish everyone here could have seen the look on her face go from pure optimism to shock then to the light being snuffed out when I told her she would never even have the opportunity to hunt moose out her back yard. Why? The Resident PP system! Now this isn't completely comparing apples to apples but the trends, tendencies and outcome will be a mirror-image. Paige is 11 ? currently there are 17,763 Wyoming residents with moose PP?s in front of her applying for 446 moose tags. There are 10,365 Wyoming residents with sheep PP?s in front of her applying for 191 sheep tags. Just in case we have any CSU or BYU graduates here today, I've broken that down even further so even you can understand. Paige will have to wait 55 years to draw her sheep tag at the spry ol? age of 67. That's a perfect age to climb the rim-rock up the Greybull River. She will have to wait 40 years to draw her moose tag. Because the Snowy Range is the premiere unit in Wyoming, she will never draw it. What a great way to keep a kid excited about this wonderful hunting heritage we have here in Wyoming.
Oh, but wait you say. To be fair, we'll set aside 25% of the tags in the random draw. Last year 2,257 people applied for the moose tag on the Snowies. Will someone who is in favor of this bill please step forward and explain to my kids how a 5 out of 2,257 chance is fair, just because of their age?
The same scenarios will happen if an elk/deer/pronghorn pp system is implemented. The numbers have been crunched for some of the top deer units around Dubois, Rock Springs and Baggs. Who wants to be the one to explain to a 10 year-old ranch kid from Baggs that it will take over 40 years to get through the First Tier of max-point holders? They?ll be in their 60?s before they will ever have a chance, just because they weren't born soon enough. Any takers? Me either.
Senator Hicks tried to convince me that draw odds and applications have been stagnate for elk/deer/pronghorn the last 3 or 4 years. That's great, but why don't we look down the road 20 or 30 years. When I was a student at UW in the late 90?s, elk draw odds at Laramie Peak were about 50% for 800 elk tags. Last year it was 26% for 1,050 tags. One of my good friends in college grew up in Basin and they hunted the Greybull river for elk every year. I remember in 1998 when the odds in unit 61 dropped under 100%. Last year it was 35%. That's a 65% drop in a decade. WGFD online draw odds reports only go back to 2007 or I would flood you with similar scenarios. Throw in a PP system and those tags will become harder to draw and odds will decrease. It has happened in EVERY western state that has implemented a PP system. Can we please learn from their mistakes and not make our own?
Please don't get me wrong and think that my kids or I somehow deserve elk, deer, sheep, moose and pronghorn tags. I've checked all of our birth certificates and there were no such claims when we signed on to this game we call life. All I am asking is that EVERYONE be given the same chance and opportunity. Give that kid from Rock Springs the Opportunity to draw a Little Mountain elk tag when they're 12 years-old. Give the kid from Dubois the OPPORTUNITY to draw a unit 128 buck tag. Give the kid from Meeteetse an OPPORTUNITY to draw a unit 63 bull tag. Don?t cave to the pressure of a few in the minority who believe they have somehow graced this old world long enough that they deserve to jump ahead of everyone else in line, and even those who aren't even big enough to stand in line.
Even though I am not a rich man, I scrimp and save and apply in many of the Western States. My wife accuses me of having a minor in statistics with my ability to regurgitate draw odds for most units in 5 or 6 states at the drop of a hat. She may be right. Because I apply for and study the odds in all these western states, I believe I have a pretty good feel for what is in store for us if this bill passes. Things change. Nothing is static, especially big-game herds. Was anyone here around in the 60?s that would care to tell us about Wyoming?s deer herds? They?re a pitiful remnant of what they used to be. Who would like to tell this great committee what the pronghorn herds looked like before the winter of 1992/1993? The moose harvest for Wyoming in 2002 was 1,160 animals. In 2011, it was 460. I bet no one thought that would happen when they implemented a Preference Point system 18 years ago. With the fire year that is bearing down on us, our short-term deer numbers may continue to decline, thus decreasing tags and opportunity. Is anyone here from the Platte Valley? Did you ever think you'd see the deer hunt go to limited quota? How fair would that have been if a PP system were implemented and those deer units were a general hunt? 2 years into the system, they go limited quota and NOONE from Saratoga, Encampment, Riverside, Rawlins, Laramie and Cheyenne have deer PP?s because it was always a general hunt. All of a sudden those folks are on the outside looking in and can't hunt out their own back door in the units they've been hunting for decades.

I've been up here rambling long enough. I know there will be several others here more versed or eloquent on the other cons behind a PP system. I am grateful for the opportunity to address this committee. WGFD has had the opportunity to implement a PP system for many years. They have chosen not to do so, because the sportsmen of Wyoming don't want it. Don?t cave to the pressure of a few. Stand up for our kids. Stand up for those who do not yet have their voices to speak for themselves. Please look at the long-term detriments and kill this bill in committee today. At the very least I ask that you table this bill until WGFD can poll their constituents again. If the people speak, and want a PP or bonus point or wait system then they need to be the ones at the table designing that system. We can't afford, our kids can't afford, to pass this flawed system on if our Wyoming hunting heritage and the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation is to stand as the greatest conservation success story written. Thank you.


OK, so I may be a bit long-winded but atleast you know what side of the fence I'm on.

-Cade
www.HuntForeverWest.com
 
Thanks Cade! Your testimony was very good, and I am sure it had an impact.

I have contacted all my friends and family, and they are writing the committee members in opposition!
 
Awesome. I hope they listened to you. I almost skipped your post(a bit long), but glad I read it.

DZ
 
>Well that suck in a way
>for me because of all
>the money that I have
>invested in pp for elk
>and deer antelope and moose
>and sheep!

I'm just speculating, but I'm sure it would become an issue. Since residents already have a pp system for sheep & moose, you would carry them over.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-13 AT 06:30PM (MST)[p]Long, but very well spoken! Hicks has been snowing all these Legislators with lies about so many residents wanting a PP system, how it will not hurt anyone, especially the young, etc. I asked in my email that if they didn't want to vote against it to at least table it like Cade mentioned in his testimony so that the actual people it would effect can sit down at the table and discuss things.

Teepee---The reason I've entered the fray is because I have two good friends in Wyoming that I hunt with every year that are against this Bill, as well as the fact that some day I may even move out there myself.
 
>
>Teepee---The reason I've entered the fray
>is because I have two
>good friends in Wyoming that
>I hunt with every year
>that are against this Bill,
>as well as the fact
>that some day I may
>even move out there myself.

Topgun: just curious, no problem. One of the problems that I have as a resident is that I have non-resident family with preference points and it would be nice to able to somewhat plan to draw the same tags. (not talking about premium tags, a lot of them are overrated anyway.) Personally, a pref point system would work for me, but I fully understand the pros & cons. I could see a waiting period working for premium units. A standard bonus point system isn't worth the paper it's written on.

As for the youth in a pp system:
1)I hope that parents aren't hanging the kids hopes of hunting only on a premium tag. Gee, the difference between pp's and random is like the difference between .0005 and .0010. Yep, one is 2x better chance. Oh, yippee.

2) Most kids at 12 don't have a flipping clue about a premium unit anyway. I have a good friend that drew a sheep tag when he was 14 yrs old & at his own admission, didn't know what his DAD was all excited about.
 
Speaking a little truth teepee?, many don't want to hear it.

I had a hard time reading that long tear jerking letter about 4 daughters and all the tags they can draw, I got to thinking, maybe that's why I never draw anything? maybe that's why the odds are getting tougher all the time?

I got a doe deer when I was twelve, and I was happy, and that was the 60s. Its amazing how different people are these days.

Back in the old days people would say some mature hunter that's paid his dues and applied for 20 or 30 years should have a somewhat better chance at drawing a once in a lifetime tag than a ten or twelve year old kid.
Oh no, not nowdays, I guess its the modern intitlement society we live in
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 01:36AM (MST)[p]Here are some numbers of a true preference point system. This system would award 100% licenses to max point holders. These numbers are based upon 2012 draw applicants, and assumes the applicants put in for the same exact area until drawn out. It would also assumes the tag numbers remain the same throughout the years (highly unlikely).

Deer:
(AREA) (YEARS)
87 14 yrs
90 14 yrs
101 19 yrs
102 14 yrs
105 16 yrs
128 28 yrs

Elk
(AREA) (YEARS)
16 8 yrs
22 12 yrs
24 8 yrs
30 22 yrs
31 19 yrs
58 10 yrs
100 22 yrs
124 21 yrs

Years and years will be added to the above numbers in reality. Only 75% of licenses are guaranteed to max point holders.

What a great piece of legislation! (sarcasm)
 
>Well that suck in a way
>for me because of all
>the money that I have
>invested in pp for elk
>and deer antelope and moose
>and sheep!


Since there is currently no elk, deer, antelope PP system for residents, wouldn't you have lost them anyway?
 
G14---When you have time, could you please compose a quick email to Legislator Jaggi explaining those stats to him? I told him in my email to him and the others that there were many units that would literally take a lifetime to draw one time under a straight PP system. He sent a response that Hicks figures it would take 14-16 years, at most, to draw any tag there is in Wyoming!!! Hicks is obviously working them all with a bunch of bogus numbers and stats to get their vote! Thanks!!!
 
What most of you don't understand is that hard to draw tags are had to draw for a reason, and its not because of a point system, its because there are many more times the amount of applicants than available tags.

After hearing some of this ignorant narrow minded one-sided talk I am going to let Hicks and a few others know that as a resident I support some kind of bonus or preference point system for resident hunters.

Its dishonest to claim that point systems are the reason
that some tags are
hard to draw, saying that ten year old kids should draw tags before people that have applied consistently
for twenty, or thirty or more years,
failing to acknowledge
that random draws distribute tags to a narrow group of applicants, failing to acknowledge that a preference point system would work very well on Wyomings pronghorn hunts.

I understand that preference point systems don't work so well on the hard to draw stuff, especially when there are OTC tags involved, but least I acknowledge that fact.
 
>G14---When you have time, could you
>please compose a quick email
>to Legislator Jaggi explaining those
>stats to him? I
>told him in my email
>to him and the others
>that there were many units
>that would literally take a
>lifetime to draw one time
>under a straight PP system.
> He sent a response
>that Hicks figures it would
>take 14-16 years, at most,
>to draw any tag there
>is in Wyoming!!! Hicks
>is obviously working them all
>with a bunch of bogus
>numbers and stats to get
>their vote! Thanks!!!

Could someone please post some numbers showing exactly when you will draw a tag under a random system? Thanks!!!!

I understand the argument: work each year for a future payoff, vs. gambling each year that you'll win the jackpot. Just a basic philosophical difference & nobody is really right or wrong.
 
piper---Again you show you complete lack of reading comprehension and the me-me-me attitude like another one of the members on MM. Don't pat yourself on the back too much there oh wise one, because everyone on here DOES know that the hard to draw tags are that way because of excessive demand. It's that way regardless of what system is in place and nothing will change that unless there is a huge increase in tags, which isn't going to happen any time soon! The demand doesn't go away in either system and your statement that a random draw distributes tags to a narrow group of applicants is absolute BS! If anything, a straight PP system is what does that by locking in only the people with max PPs as the winners each year. With a random system at least everyone has the same chance to draw every year and nothing could be fairer than that. Your statement that kids should draw tags before older hunters is also bogus because that's not what anyone has said here either. We are saying that ALL hunters of ALL ages should have an equal chance at a tag through a random draw. You and Triple_BB seem to have the entitlement attitude that just because you've been around a while that you should go to the head of the line and that's just flat not right! The only way a PP system works is if there are plenty of tags to go around in all units for the demand that's there such that everyone gets a tag every few years. Yet you turn right around and state you understand that PP systems don't work well in the hard to draw units, which is true and what we're also saying. Then you do another flip flop and say you're in support of the Hick's Bill! You would make a super politician!
 
Teepee asked: "Could someone please post some numbers showing exactly when you will draw a tag under a random system? Thanks!!!!"

Teepee---It's very simple because there is no way you can ever be 100% sure of drawing a tag in a unit unless you're the only entrant. That is why many people are against the system, especially ones like piper who keeps whining that he's an unlucky guy and never gets drawn! The math is very simple because any person will have the SAME chance at getting drawn as the next person whether there are 2 or 102 in a drawing. Obviously math will tell you that the more people entered the less chance of getting drawn, but the fairness doesn't go away and that's why it's better than a PP system because you're in the running every year instead of maybe drawing one tag in 20+ years and then going back to the end of the line to start all over. Would you rather have a chance at a hard to draw tag EVERY year like it is now or ONCE in 20+ years under a PP system because that's exactly what it boils down to for a lot of the units with few tags and many entrants? Look at the waiting list already for the max PP holders in our NR tough draw units and the system is only in it's 7th year! It's already like I stated above for some of those units in what is a relatively new system.
 
TopGun,

I sent the email showing all committee members the years in a true PP system, including how I achieved those numbers. I also PM'd you.
 
>Teepee asked: "Could someone please post
>some numbers showing exactly when
>you will draw a tag
>under a random system? Thanks!!!!"
>
>
>Teepee---It's very simple because there is
>no way you can ever
>be 100% sure of drawing
>a tag in a unit
>unless you're the only entrant.
> That is why many
>people are against the system,
>especially ones like piper who
>keeps whining that he's an
>unlucky guy and never gets
>drawn! The math is
>very simple because any person
>will have the SAME chance
>at getting drawn as the
>next person whether there are
>2 or 102 in a
>drawing. Obviously math will
>tell you that the more
>people entered the less chance
>of getting drawn, but the
>fairness doesn't go away and
>that's why it's better than
>a PP system because you're
>in the running every year
>instead of maybe drawing one
>tag in 20+ years and
>then going back to the
>end of the line to
>start all over. Would
>you rather have a chance
>at a hard to draw
>tag EVERY year like it
>is now or ONCE in
>20+ years under a PP
>system because that's exactly what
>it boils down to for
>a lot of the units
>with few tags and many
>entrants? Look at the
>waiting list already for the
>max PP holders in our
>NR tough draw units and
>the system is only in
>it's 7th year! It's
>already like I stated above
>for some of those units
>in what is a relatively
>new system.

Topgun, my comment about the random odds was a rhetorical question. (I already knew the answer.)

Personally, I'd rather work towards an end goal than roll the dice every year and hope for the best. But that is just me. I'm quite aware of the arguments against a system. But there's more to the discussion than just the premium units.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 11:07AM (MST)[p]Topgun, I've read through your last few posts and all you mention is a pure pref pt system. This is not how the current Wyo nonres pref pt system works and I'm sure this is not what will happen in a new resident pref/bonus pt system. The current system EVERYONE has a chance of drawing a tag each year. There is a random pool and pref pt pool. This works great in all but the toughest draw units in Wyo?.and as others have mentioned all along no system will give you a guaranteed chance of drawing those tags in your lifetime?.although some bonus pt systems similar to NV everyone has a chance of drawing each tag every year but those that have applied longer have a pretty darn good chance of drawing tags the toughest draw tags in the state.

The truth is in a random draw your chance for drawing tags will decrease every year you apply. Those that draw tags jump right back in and apply plus there are more and more people that get into applying each year for tags. If you believe it is fair for those that draw tags to have the same chance as everyone else a random draw system works great. If you believe everyone should have a fair chance of drawing tags plus those that have applied longer have a little better chance of drawing tags there are quite a few draw systems that work fantastic!

Some of these systems seem like a fair compromise between a totally random draw and a pure pref pts draw that you keep mentioning. It is obvious to everyone that a pure pref pt system would be a failure but there are other draw systems that would work great in Wyo!

I continue to draw fantastic deer, elk, and antelope tags in Wyo with the current nonres pref pt/random draw!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 11:50AM (MST)[p]It would be nice if you and the "fantastic tags you have drawn in the NR PP system" would take a hike once and for all! I know exactly how the present system works and the random pool of applicants has a lot lower number of tags than the PP pools and in some low tag units there are NONE issued! The present system does not give EVERYONE a good chance at drawing and even though technically those with 0 PPs are in the PP draw pool first, they have little to no chance of drawing unless the overall tag numbers exceed all those with PPs that are ahead of them. That does not happen very often in the overall scheme of things unless it's a unit in low demand due to lack of public land, low animal numbers, etc. Anyway, you've admitted that all the tags you and your boy have drawn were with just several PPs at most and those ARE NOT considered the "fantastic" tags we're talking about that are hard to draw in these discussions. You really need to go back to the drawing board because the present system DOES NOT give nearly the chance for EVERYONE to draw a tag like a true random system does because of the way the allotted percentages are set up. As mentioned earlier, some of the units don't even have a single tag available in the random drawing. Your truth statement is also false because in a straight random draw everyone has the chance as the next guy. The odds may go down based on a larger number of applicants, but the chances for each person drawing are the same. Your other statement about being sure a new system will be different than the present NR system is also bogus because the present bills don't even have anything in them as to how one would be run. That is a real fallacy when you introduce a Bill telling a Department to do something and not spelling anything out. The only thing you can be sure of right now are death and taxes, LOL!
 
As hard as I try,I still can't figure out why TOPGUN is so concerned about a resident point system in Wyoming.

Maybe it's because he just likes to stick his nose in everything?Nah...couldn't be.
 
nontypical---Try harder because it's probably that you're another that can't read and comprehend what has already been asked and answered in #20! Nah...couldn't be!

Teepee---The reason I've entered the fray is because I have two good friends in Wyoming that I hunt with every year that are against this Bill, as well as the fact that some day I may even move out there myself.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 03:21PM (MST)[p]jims,

Do you think its a good system when those with Maximum points are included in both the Preference and Random draws?

Those with the most points have an opportunity to draw 100% of the tags...while those with less than max are limited to NO MORE than 25%.

Those (NR) with less than max points are not assured jack chit with the current system...and thats a fact. Residents would be in the same situation if this bill passes.

Thats why this point system is a complete and total joke, it only favors those with max points.
 
Thank God I was not the only one that disagreed with Piper. And thank you for putting him in his place. His statement above goes along with how Colorado has the best setup for drawing, along with resident tags being to cheap(Piper being a resident or so he says). Come on with this bull #####!!! There is no such thing as perfect system but whatever transpires I hope that its a good one.
 
After reading all of this I still have to beg the question: Jims what fantastic Tags are you drawing every year as NR? What awesome tags are you drawing as a resident in CO every year? Lets see your animals to prove they were so good?

Simply put this legislation is not a well thought-out piece of legislation. From this very board there is a pretty strong split amongst sportsmen. The study that the bill is "supported" by has some serious issues, etc. I would think all involved regardless of the side of the issue can agree that this is something that should take more time, effort and study to implement. It is truly something that will forever change hunting in WY as there is no way to turn back once the system is implemented.

The biggest issue we need to address is what does the system need to look like. Can we modify the system? Again there are all sorts of different possible systems that can be implemented, but this bill only addressing the single system to mirror the NR PP system.

Why not table it right now and work with a group of different people to come up with a decent system. As a state WY has the ability to decide which is the very best system for its residents. That system could be a simple change to add in a wait periods for those who draw a LQ, to a Bonus Points System, to OIL licenses, to hybrid draw to a pure PP draw etc.

Why not shut this down right now and let the game and fish and sportsmen come up with a solution.
 
>After reading all of this I
>still have to beg the
>question: Jims what fantastic
>Tags are you drawing every
>year as NR? What awesome
>tags are you drawing as
>a resident in CO every
>year? Lets see your animals
>to prove they were so
>good?
>
>Simply put this legislation is not
>a well thought-out piece of
>legislation. From this very board
>there is a pretty strong
>split amongst sportsmen. The study
>that the bill is "supported"
>by has some serious issues,
>etc. I would think all
>involved regardless of the side
>of the issue can agree
>that this is something that
>should take more time, effort
>and study to implement. It
>is truly something that will
>forever change hunting in WY
>as there is no way
>to turn back once the
>system is implemented.
>
>The biggest issue we need to
>address is what does the
>system need to look like.
>Can we modify the system?
>Again there are all sorts
>of different possible systems that
>can be implemented, but this
>bill only addressing the single
>system to mirror the NR
>PP system.
>
>Why not table it right now
>and work with a group
>of different people to come
>up with a decent system.
>As a state WY has
>the ability to decide which
>is the very best system
>for its residents. That system
>could be a simple change
>to add in a wait
>periods for those who draw
>a LQ, to a Bonus
>Points System, to OIL licenses,
>to hybrid draw to a
>pure PP draw etc.
>
>Why not shut this down right
>now and let the game
>and fish and sportsmen come
>up with a solution.
>

Every possible scenario will have its detractors, no matter how much time is spent trying to come up with a "solution". Just a basic difference of opinion on what is considered "fair".

I can't see the G&F, with budget issues, implementing a different system than is already in place, whether this year or the future. Writing and implementing new computer code takes time & money.

From what I heard from a legislator this morning, the "for" & "against" that have written in to the committee are about an even split.
 
I have been involved with this debate from the beginning when the bill was filed. It's amazing to me how mis-understood points are and the amount of lying I've heard from both sides.
I was at the Committee meeting with Cade and Buzz, but on the other side. Cade calling me "self-serving" is 'the pot calling the kettle black'. He made many inaccurate statements and used his three beautiful daughters as props.
Buzz told me afterwards how if points were passed he would use the system by buying points for other people so he could party with them and draw every year! Wow
If pref points are passed or not, the sun will still rise and set, we will still pay taxes and you that find it worthwhile to trash talk and lie will still be trash talkers and liars.
And those non-residents that think they should comment on this, should find another thread.

God bless America and free speech!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 04:59PM (MST)[p]I knew there was somethin fishy about that buzz character.

Forgot to add the LOL
 
>I have been involved with this
>debate from the beginning when
>the bill was filed. It's
>amazing to me how mis-understood
>points are and the amount
>of lying I've heard from
>both sides.
>I was at the Committee meeting
>with Cade and Buzz, but
>on the other side. Cade
>calling me "self-serving" is 'the
>pot calling the kettle black'.
>He made many inaccurate statements
>and used his three beautiful
>daughters as props.
>Buzz told me afterwards how if
>points were passed he would
>use the system by buying
>points for other people so
>he could party with them
>and draw every year! Wow
>
>If pref points are passed or
>not, the sun will still
>rise and set, we will
>still pay taxes and you
>that find it worthwhile to
>trash talk and lie will
>still be trash talkers and
>liars.
>And those non-residents that think they
>should comment on this, should
>find another thread.
>
>God bless America and free speech!
>

jm77 showing your true character in this post are we? The very fact that a hunter took his children to see self governing in person is awesome. They are hunters too and have a voice as well. Pretty obvious that you are not really worth the response but here it is...

1. The random draw does not service anyone, it does not provide any preference as a result a change to that system is simply to serve those that would benefit from it. So yes it is self serving. I do not see hiow you could ever claim that asking for a random drawing system is self serving at all.

2. As far as the averaging of points... Why the hell wouldn't a person use this to their advantage. I would and everyone else committed to hunting would do it. No just buzz but everyone. It is a major flaw with the system. Hell even now I am wondering how I might leverage my NR points to get me a guided hunt!

3. As far a a NR staying out... Bull this is a plan that effects my future plans. I fully intend to live in WY! Also I have experienced the PP system as both a resident and NR. So that being said I do have an opinion and I should count especially as the residents will soon see that the points system sucks and to compensate for the points sucking the DOW will move more NR tags to resident tags (happened already in many states).

4. As far as trash talkers and liars... The bills sponsor is the biggest liar of all... He continues to spew out false information on the bill and those who are supporting him in this bill are of the same make.

So call it how you like jm77 but attacking a guy for bringing his hunting children to a meeting just shows what sort of person you are...
 
Also where were his inaccurate statements?? Looking at his speech seems pretty straight forward. I just think he was better prepared and now your a little bitter.


Also BUZZ never hid the problem with the points averaging method. Nor has anyone else in this thread. I have been pretty vocal about sweat it would be to move in as a resident using my NR points and jump to the top of the pool. Hell right now I have 6 points my wife has 6 and my dad has 3. So I could ultimately draw a top tag averaging with them 3 times before a resident is even able to compete with me...

But go ahead and cry that a completely random draw is so unfair and that your neighbor is the luckiest man in teh world because he hunts your area every year... BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!
 
Hey JM77, welcome to MonsterMuleys!

My testimony is posted above. Please correct my inaccurate statements and let us know what is correct. I had alot of emotion, but also numbers to back my claims. Please use numbers to back your claims.

All I heard from the guys in favor of the bill was that "I deserve this tag". "I want to kill a wall-hanger before I'm done hunting". I I I and Me Me Me were the queens of the morning.
Sounds pretty self-serving to me.

If you opened your ears and actually listened to my testimony, I never said that me or my beautiful daughters (thanks for the compliment to them!) deserve any tags or any preferential treatment. All I wanted is that everyone have the same OPPORTUNITY. You know, the thing America was built on.

I am not as opposed to PP's or Bonus Points or sitting out a year or two after you draw a tag, as I come across. What absolutely scares the weebee geebees out of me is that PP's were the first step for most the western states to begin the full-on assault on the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. It was the beginning of the commercialization of wildlife in Utah, Colorado, AZ, etc........
In case you've never read that Model you can find it here:
http://www.rmef.org/Conservation/HuntingIsConservation/NorthAmericanWildlifeConservationModel.aspx

We have it so good in Wyoming. We cannot afford to go down that slope. That is the main reason I am so opposed to PP's. Your blinders must be on pretty tight to not know what is happening in the states around you. We are not immune or isolated. Resident PP's will make us that much more vulnerable. I saw your passion for hunting and wildlife. Don't be one of the beginning reasons it begins to be snuffed out in Wyoming.

-Cade
www.HuntForeverWest.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 05:26PM (MST)[p]
Hey look guys, it's JM. The guy who pushed the legislation. I take it things aren't going well?
 
Was lucky enough to get some follow up from my rep on this. Supposedly this bill has the support of the committee to get it to the floor. He said it was tabled because some guy who was against it came over from Encampment with his daughters and wouldn't stop blabbering and they ran out of time. I asked about email support for and against. He said he's getting emails both ways from non constituents. However regarding his constituents, he said they definitely out number those who are opposed to the bill. Glad to see some of my political contributions are paying off. You guys who are writing in support of the bill, keep hammering on those House reps. This thing is still a long shot, but I think we have a chance of getting something in front of the Governor...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 07:58PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 05:33?PM (MST)

jm77 said,

"I have been involved with this debate from the beginning when the bill was filed."

What debate? There never was one, unless you're talking about the 2008 poll of 600 resident hunters regarding a preference point system. You know the poll that has been misquoted by Senator Hicks in a number of emails and meetings he's had. You know the ones, where he claims 80% of the residents are in favor of a PP system. Too bad the true facts show a 54-46 split amoung the 600 residents who were polled.

"It's amazing to me how mis-understood points are and the amount of lying I've heard from both sides."

If we're going to take oaths on who is lying and who isnt, I have a few people I'd like to have sworn in...

In particular a certain Senator that is packing legislation for Wyoming residents well beyond his Senate District. I guess his "constituency" knows no boudaries when its to further an agenda...but pretty narrow when he's called out on the carpet for poor legislation. Nothing surprising there.

I was at the Committee meeting with Cade and Buzz, but on the other side.

Nice you view this as a competition...I dont view it that way. I always preferred to call it the appropriate actions of responsible citizens living in a Representative Republic. Funny how the sponsor of this bill wrongly testified that we should pass this since, "the majority rules and thats how our system is supposed to work"...

I highly recommend a remedial crash course in 9th grade civics...our system is in place to stop mob-rule and why its the best system in the World.

Cade calling me "self-serving" is 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

You lost me there Chief...not sure how wanting to maintain a random draw system, where every applicant has the exact same odds as everyone else is "self-serving"

He made many inaccurate statements and used his three beautiful daughters as props.

Please point out the inaccurate statements. He does have some beautiful daughters...and they have a great Father that cares about their future hunting opportunities. He's not only doing a great job of introducting them to sport, he's also teaching them how responsible citizes act. I highly recommend you bring a notebook and pen to the next meeting...and dont scrimp on the "notes" you should be taking, if only obviously.

Buzz told me afterwards how if points were passed he would use the system by buying points for other people so he could party with them and draw every year! Wow

Maybe next time, try thinking past your own self-interest and look down the road for potential problems with the crap legislation that you recommend. I'm quite confident, most third graders, could have drafted better legislation with a Big Chief notebook and a crayon.

I will not apologize for using a system created, passed, and written by fools...to "fix" a problem where one doesnt exist.


If pref points are passed or not, the sun will still rise and set, we will still pay taxes and you that find it worthwhile to trash talk and lie will still be trash talkers and liars.

Yep, the sun will rise...and for selfish reasons, I'm not going to complain if the PP bill does pass. I've shot wayyy more than my share of top big-game in Wyoming, Arizona, Montana, Alaska, New Mexico, etc.

Since when has the truth been "trash talk"???


And those non-residents that think they should comment on this, should find another thread.

I disagree...When Residents start funding 75% of the WYG&F budget, then you'll have the right to tell non-residents they have no voice. Until then, I highly encourage you to zip YOUR lip, start paying your fair share, and thank NR's for paying a majority of the freight on wildlife funding. In the meantime perhaps take your own advice and find another thread.

God bless America and free speech!

Thats funny...contradicting yourself with the last two sentences in your rant. Telling NR they have no right to comment, then asking God to bless free speech?

Laffin'...
 
Who is this JM77 that can't put his name on his profile, but can come on here with a first post and cut everyone down with no facts to back himself up with?
 
I thought I would bring a few more facts to the table. I looked up draw odds for the special nonres draw as examples to explain some of my original posts and why the current nonres system works very well for all but the small fraction of toughest units in Wyo to draw.

There currently are approximately 119 buck antelope units (type 1 and 2) available. Only 3 of the 119 units took max pts (6) to draw in 2012. 95% of the total units took 3 or less pts to draw. This does not include the chance of drawing tags in the random draw. I would have to say the current system is working very well for nonres! Applicants quickly filter through the system. If you ask me, that is pretty good odds of drawing some of the best antelope units available in Wyo!

There are approximately 71 limited buck deer options available to Wyo nonres. 61 of the 71 units an applicant with 3 or less points could draw in 2012.....that is 85% of the total units available. Only 8% (6 units) took max pref pts to draw. A draw system must be working fairly well if 85% of the units can be drawn in 3 or 4 years!

There are approximately 82 limited bull elk options available to Wyo nonres. 57% of the units could be drawn in 2012 with only 3 pref pts and 87% of the units could be drawn with less than max pts (6). 17% of the total bull units took max pts. Although it takes longer to draw bull elk than deer or antelope tags in Wyo draw odds are pretty incredible and it doesn't take long to draw some fantastic tags.

No ELK69 I don't draw fantastic Colo and Wyo tags every year but it doesn't take me long to draw excellent tags.

Currently only 3% of antelope, 8% of deer, and 17% of elk units take max pts for Wyo nonres to draw. This is after 6 years that the pref pt system has been in existence. Nonres only get a fraction of the available tags (approximately 20%). Draw odds for Wyo residents that are allocated approximately 80% of total tags would likely be even better than nonres!

Is the current nonres pref pt system perfect...absolutely not. With some tweaking it would certainly be even better than it already is!
 
>"It's amazing to me how mis-understood
>points are and the amount
>of lying I've heard from
>both sides.
"
>
>If we're going to take oaths
>on who is lying and
>who isnt, I have a
>few people I'd like to
>have sworn in...

Really Buzz. You've probably never told any white lies on here, have ya?
 
Triple_BB,

Just the fact the bill originated in Casper it doesn't surprise me your rep has had some support for it. Just curious why Hicks introduced the bill for a bunch of guys from Casper. Very weird to say the least.
 
I haven't heard of anyone in Casper pushing this bill other than seeing a blurb about it on this thread. The first time I wrote to my rep about it, he said he wasn't familiar with the bill. But then hey, if its on the internet, it must be true...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 06:29PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 06:16?PM (MST)

I don't much like the proposal, but having no type of point system isn't much better.

My brother from Nevada and my nephew from Utah have saved 4 points for antelope and are planning a hunting trip this year.
I'm a resident and this will probably be my 4th consecutive year of failing to draw an antelope tag, the odds were better than 50/50 a few years ago, last year I had about a 35% chance to draw.

I know I'm whining, and in essence we all are,
but there is something that bothers me about not drawing a tag year after year and then not being able to look forward to having a better chance next year and actually probably having a worse chance to draw.

I would love to see a moderate preference point system or a bonus point system put in place, but it sounds like its either one extreme or the other, and both have substantial drawbacks.

I have to laugh at the notion that point systems were the beginning of the assault on the North American Wildlife model.
How about outfitters, money, and the ongoing commercialization of the public wildlife resource?
 
jims (1155 posts)
Feb-05-13, 05:42 PM (MST)
51. "RE: SF0085 tabled until Wednesdsay"

I thought I would bring a few more facts to the table. I looked up draw odds for the special nonres draw as examples to explain some of my original posts and why the current nonres system works very well for all but the small fraction of toughest units in Wyo to draw.

***What were the first facts you brought us, as I haven't heard any yet? Now you come on and are talking about the Special draw that the biggest share of people can't even afford to put in for. Is that the draw you and your boy put in for to draw all those "fantastic" tags every couple years? If your answer is yes, it tells a lot about how you're trying to skew the stats to show how great you say the "system" is. Now go do your thing again and see if you can come up with the same "facts" for the Regular draw, LOL!!! You are like a lot of folks that try to use statistics to get a point across when the stats you use are not representative of what's being discussed.
 
>Triple_BB,
>
>Just the fact the bill originated
>in Casper it doesn't surprise
>me your rep has had
>some support for it.
>Just curious why Hicks introduced
>the bill for a bunch
>of guys from Casper. Very
>weird to say the least.
>

If memory serves, Hicks introduced PP legislation last year during the budget session, which is a more difficult process than a general session. So, I doubt that Casper folks had anything to do with it. So, it's not a new attempt.
 
>jims (1155 posts)
>Feb-05-13, 05:42 PM (MST)
>51. "RE: SF0085 tabled until Wednesdsay"
>
>
>I thought I would bring a
>few more facts to the
>table. I looked up draw
>odds for the special nonres
>draw as examples to explain
>some of my original posts
>and why the current nonres
>system works very well for
>all but the small fraction
>of toughest units in Wyo
>to draw.
>
>***What were the first facts you
>brought us, as I haven't
>heard any yet? Now
>you come on and are
>talking about the Special draw
>that the biggest share of
>people can't even afford to
>put in for. Is
>that the draw you and
>your boy put in for
>to draw all those "fantastic"
>tags every couple years?
>If your answer is yes,
>it tells a lot about
>how you're trying to skew
>the stats to show how
>great you say the "system"
>is. Now go do
>your thing again and see
>if you can come up
>with the same "facts" for
>the Regular draw, LOL!!!
>You are like a lot
>of folks that try to
>use statistics to get a
>point across when the stats
>you use are not representative
>of what's being discussed.

Topgun, My non-res nephew just put in with max pref pts & I looked at the non-resident elk areas pretty hard (regular & special). Awful lot of very good areas that are a 100% draw or close to it for regular draw too for max points. Only looked at elk. I've been in Wyo for 33 years & hunted all over it. So, yes, I know what a good area is.
 
Topgun, I'm just stating facts directly from draw stats. A high percentage of Wyo deer, elk, and antelope tags don't take many nonres pts to draw. Only a fraction of the total units take max pref pts! You may be getting tired of hearing this but the point I am making is that there are great units in Wyo that can be drawn fairly often thanks to the Wyo nonres pref pt system. Thank you WG&F for offering the random/pref pt system to nonres!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 08:20PM (MST)[p]Yeah...and theres great units that can be drawn fairly often under the random system too. Been doing so for the last 14 years.

Theres even plenty of great units that can be had on second choices, third choices, and bought OTC after the intitial draw.

Whats your point?

Thats justification for a point system?

WOW!

If so few units take less than max points for elk, deer, and antelope, and its so easy to draw "great tags" so often...could you please explain the following:

NR elk: 4,381 with 5 points
3,744 with 6 points
3685 with 7 points

NR deer: 5 points 3,139
6 points 2,780
7 points 3,476

NR Pronghorn: 5 points 2,425
6 points 1,690
7 points 1,483

Thats funny considering I heard "expert" testimony that every elk hunter should cycle through the system within 6-8 years, deer hunters 5-7 years, and pronghorn hunters every 3-4 years.

By that logic, It seems pretty funny that we're 7 years into the NR draw and theres that many people with 5-7 points...and they've not drawn all those "great" tags???

Oh, and any NR hunters wanting to get in on the draw starting this year, or any NR youth starting out only have to allow the 43,848 people with elk points to clear the PP pools in front of them, 35,044 in front of them with deer points, and 35,454 with pronghorn points.

Theres a great recruiting tool for new and youth hunters...to quote the bill sponsor "youth need to get in line like the rest of us"...

WOW! Just WOW!

Then the bill Sponsor wonders why the hunting community is comprised of mostly older hunters?

Yeah, bigggg shock there.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 08:25PM (MST)[p]There is a difference between "can draw" and "will draw".
If you pay you dues, put in the effort, and do everything right, you can be reasonably assured of drawing a tag with a point system.
Of course you have to apply, but with a random draw nothing matters except luck.
 
>Topgun, I'm just stating facts directly
>from draw stats. A
>high percentage of Wyo deer,
>elk, and antelope tags don't
>take many nonres pts to
>draw. Only a fraction
>of the total units take
>max pref pts! You
>may be getting tired of
>hearing this but the point
>I am making is that
>there are great units in
>Wyo that can be drawn
>fairly often thanks to the
>Wyo nonres pref pt system.
> Thank you WG&F
>for offering the random/pref pt
>system to nonres!


Yea, and I'm going to state another fact for ya. Your stats don't mean ##### in the overall scheme of things when looking at the total system just like I mentioned before. Now go do like I stated and come back with stats on how many PPs it takes to draw a majority of the units in all of the REGULAR DRAWS that represent 60% of the system!!! I notced you didn't say a friggin word about that when I asked the first time and it's the same BS you've been pulling ever since you made your first post about the NR system!
 
>Yeah...and theres great units that can
>be drawn fairly often under
>the random system too. Been
>doing so for the last
>14 years.
>
>Theres even plenty of great units
>that can be had on
>second choices, third choices, and
>bought OTC after the intitial
>draw.
>
>Whats your point?
>
>Thats justification for a point system?
>
>
>WOW!


If an argument against a point system is that you can't draw good areas (point creep, kids will never draw, etc.) then G&F data that demonstrates turnover in good areas is a counter argument. Or are you just dumb?
 
Really?

My wife and I have never been without multiple deer, elk, and pronghorn tags in Wyoming the last 14 years with the random draw in place. Most years, we have 2 buck antelope each, 1-2 buck deer tags each, and 1 bull elk tag each...wont bother with the type-6 tags.

I've a garage full of random draw "luck"...

Just sayin'.
 
There are thousands of nonresident elk, antelope, and deer tags given out each year, I don't think those numbers Buzz put up are intimidating, 1400 hundred deer tags around here alone, How many annual general nonres elk 10800? there are thousands of nonres antelope tags each year.
Are you sure thats how many point holders there are, not many really
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 08:39PM (MST)[p]TeePee,

Whats really dumb is to create a point system for a handful of hard to draw deer, elk, and pronghorn units to satisfy a sniveling bunch of cry-babies that cant draw those few units.

If they arent smart enough to look at the draw odds prior to applying...then they dont deserve a tag.

I swear to God, if breathing wasnt involuntary, 75% of the people on the planet would flip over dead.

Just sayin'...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 08:56PM (MST)[p]Piper said, "How many annual general nonres elk 10800?

Please...stop...I'm embarrassed for you.

Just making up numbers or dont know how to navigate the WYG&F webpage?

But, at least you know that there actually ARE NR general tags...more than I can say about the testimony I heard from the Sponsor of SF0085.

Ever consider running for a State Senate seat?
 
that's why the question mark? it was off the top of my head.
How many nonresident tags do they sell each year, (bulls) (cow calf) (either sex)
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13
>AT 08:39?PM (MST)

>
>TeePee,
>
>Whats really dumb is to create
>a point system for a
>handful of hard to draw
>deer, elk, and pronghorn units
>to satisfy a sniveling bunch
>of cry-babies that cant draw
>those few units.
>
Buzz, Who says the PP system is just for the handful of hard to draw areas? That's not the only game in town. Maybe it's for the 20-40% areas too. Maybe its just the northern part of the state, but nearly everyone I've talked to is for a pp system. A lot of the hunting public just wants a little assurance in the draw instead of a roll of the dice every year. Just a different mindset, not wrong or right, just different. Some people love Vegas, some people despise it.
 
I think your number came from a region further south of the "top of your head".

Its not my job to spoon feed you your mush...

Please tell me how many NR's burned their points on a type-6 cow/calf and type 6 doe/fawn tags...
 
If its for people applying for 20-40% draw odds areas, how do you explain 11,810 NR with 5-7 elk points? The 9,395 NR hunters with 5-7 deer points? The 5,598 NR's with 5-7 pronghorn points?

Seems to me if the system was designed and being used by people wanting 20-40% draw odds tags...there wouldnt be over 25,000 NR hunters packing 5-7 points.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 09:17PM (MST)[p]Hey Buzz! Ya better let up on old piper, as he was only off on the General Elk tags for NRs by 7978, LOL! I'd really like to see his answer to your question on how many PPs we lose when we buy our type 6 tags too!

Teepee atated: "A lot of the hunting public just wants a little assurance in the draw instead of a roll of the dice every year"


***That's exactly what you'll get if it passes too---very little assurance!!!
 
>If its for people applying for
>20-40% draw odds areas, how
>do you explain 11,810 NR
>with 5-7 elk points? The
>9,395 NR hunters with 5-7
>deer points? The 5,598 NR's
>with 5-7 pronghorn points?
>
>Seems to me if the system
>was designed and being used
>by people wanting 20-40% draw
>odds tags...there wouldnt be over
>25,000 NR hunters packing 5-7
>points.

It's their choice. Others would rather hunt more often in good areas than fewer times in better areas. Maybe some are applying in other states and will eventually plan a hunt in Wyoming. I don't know the 25,000 hunters well enough to ask them.
 
I can tell you, for a fact, they havent been applying in areas with 20-40% draw odds...
 
Buzz, If your demeanor in presence is like it is on here, I doubt you will get very far with your arguments.
no one likes a opinionated know it all.

I could spend all day looking up numbers to support my beliefs too, I know a bunch of talk radio hosts that do it everyday, they are still full of BS

random luck draws will always be controversial, there are the lucky ones and not so lucky, usually the lucky will love them and the unlucky won't.

Im sure this stuff will come up later if its shot down now, and I'm not happy with the status quo and I think things could be improved as far as my sense of fairness is concerned.
 
Your right Topgun, I was thinking about Idahos nonresident general deer tag limit.
And I don't really care how many type 6 tags were sold and how many points were used, just like you don't care how many people draw multiple times while others go without

I don't like being called old, that's one thing that bugs me.
I guess I could call you a thick headed gadfly, and I wouldn't be off too far would I?
 
>
>Teepee atated: "A lot of
>the hunting public just wants
>a little assurance in the
>draw instead of a roll
>of the dice every year"
>
>>
>***That's exactly what you'll get if
>it passes too---very little assurance!!!

Topgun, if as Buzz stated, everyone is going after the premium units, then who is left to go after the "good" tags? And why would the odds for the good areas sky rocket if nobody is putting in for them? Unless there is a large influx of new resident hunters, please explain statistically how that happens.

I know that there are a few here that state that they will put in for neighbors, friends, ex-wives, dogs, etc if a PP system is implemented. And a few will do that, and that will add a few extras to the system. However, at $20 per point, a lot won't. I've seen enough complaining on here and at home with the proposals to increase the tags a few bucks to know that there won't be that many recruiting their neighbors to increase their odds. I'll be hunting regardless of whether or not it passes, and life will go on.
 
TeePee,

How do you think tag numbers for deer and antelope in Wyoming compare now to 10-15 years ago?

Are more mule deer tags issued now than 15 years ago?

With current trends, do you think there will be more or less mule deer and antelope in another 15 years?

Which is more likely...less opportunity or more? Will less tags being issued cause good areas to be drawn more often or less often?

Questions that were never even thought about by those wanting a point system.

How much do you think moose licenses dropping from 1100 to 460ish has impacted the time it takes to cycle through all the point holders.

Those that presented the preference point bill yesterday, talked as if Wyomings wildlife lives in a vacuum.

Trends are not looking encouraging for wildlife.
 
I provided each committee member including "Loucks" who addresses the committee tomorrow morning. A spread sheet on how to manipulate the proposed p/p system that after 3 years with an investment of under $200.00 a year you would not only draw every year but go up a point every 5 years. Using 5 applicants one primary hunter and 4 rotating hunters. John Emerich called me and confirmed my numbers remarking this needs to be addressed. Anyone caring to review this can send me an email address and I will provide it to you. In any case the final hand will be dealt tomorrow. I will also post this sheet at www.drawalicensenow.blogspot.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 10:44PM (MST)[p]Topgun, Thanks for reminding me to add stats for the nonres regular draw. The regular draw actually makes the current random/pref pt system look even better! As mentioned previously there were approximately 119 antelope units. 39 of the 119 nonres units in the regular draw have 100% chance of drawing in the RANDOM draw that each applicant irregardless of how many pts they have can draw. 39% of the units hand out the same or more tags than applicants in the random draw.

Buzz, I know you are aware that a high % of nonres apply each year for pref pts rather than units. Obviously a large chunk of nonres apply only for pref pts each year to "build pts." I expect this is where you are coming up with numbers of nonres w/max pts rather than those that actually apply for tags? I actually like those applicants because they don't compete for great tags that I draw quite often!

The fact is there are only 6 antelope buck units out of 119 that take max pts to draw in the special draw. You will have a tough time convincing me or others that 95% of antelope, 85% of deer, and 57% of all elk units that can be drawn with 3-4 pref pts isn't a fantastic deal?

Plain and simple the majority of nonres applicants filter through the system at a fairly quick rate. Those that draw tags in this system go to the end of the pref pt pool; however, they are immediately eligible to draw tags in the random draw and it doesn't take many years to draw good to excellent tags.

I expect the complaint of most Wyo res is that those that draw tags don't go to the end of the line in the current random draw. Those that apply for years and years never get any closer to drawing tags and their draw odds continue to slowly decrease over years. With the random system more and more hunters apply for tags each year as new hunters apply plus those that draw tags immediately return to apply. In all reality young hunters will have less and less chance to draw tags as the Wyoming population grows and more young hunters apply with a random draw system.

I like the fact that I can plan the years I will draw tags with the current nonres random/pref pt system...and as I've mentioned once or twice I have drawn a bunch of great tags over the years!
 
jims,

How can you say that NR pronghorn hunters cycle through quickly when theres over 5000 applicants that still have 5-7 points?

Waiting over 7 years for a pronghorn tag is burning through the applicants???

Unbelievable....
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13 AT 10:51PM (MST)[p]Oh, and jims, at the committee hearing, it was actually stated by those in support of the PP bill that hunter numbers were declining...and that hunter age was increasing.

If those that want a point system really believe that, wouldnt that make their odds better each year rather than worse?

This bill has nothing to do with fairness...and everything to do with greed.

Bunch of whiney old men wanting "one more" good tag before they die.

Great legacy to leave behind...take with both hands and give nothing back.

Congratulations?
 
This is a pretty good debate sitting on the sidelines, I can see both sides from a non-resident point of view.

I think it is possible and maybe even probable that a preference point system like the NRs have will make good units easier to draw than they are in a random system while everyone with max points is chasing the top units in the state, definitely making those tags much harder to draw then they are currently. Both sides can spit out stats showing this from the NR tags. I am sitting on max for deer and antelope, but have used my elk points 2 going on 3 times to draw good tags, could easily have done the same for lopes.

I think you all should just meet in the middle and put in a bonus point system that gives you an extra chance in the draw. Do you square that chance like Nevada or not will be the next question?
 
>Your right Topgun, I was thinking
>about Idahos nonresident general deer
>tag limit.
> And I don't really care
>how many type 6 tags
>were sold and how many
>points were used, just like
>you don't care how many
>people draw multiple times while
>others go without
>
>I don't like being called old,
>that's one thing that bugs
>me.
> I guess I could call
>you a thick headed gadfly,
>and I wouldn't be off
>too far would I?

FYI I was not using the word "old" in a derogatory manner like what you just called me. If you're older than I am at 65, let's just say we're "mature", LOL! The answer to the question on type 6 tags is zero, nada, zilch because PPs aren't used for those tags and everyone goes in the draw on an equal, "random" basis. It would be nice if people at least knew all about a system before they start spouting off about it. You do know what equal and random mean don't you? Oops, bad question to ask you because you never have figured out that part of our discussion on this whole tag deal yet! Just keep whining and I'll keep playing the violin for you!!!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-13
>AT 10:44?PM (MST)

>
>Topgun, Thanks for reminding me to
>add stats for the nonres
>regular draw. The regular
>draw actually makes the current
>random/pref pt system look even
>better! As mentioned previously
>there were approximately 119 antelope
>units. 39 of the
>119 nonres units in the
>regular draw have 100% chance
>of drawing in the RANDOM
>draw that each applicant irregardless
>of how many pts they
>have can draw. 39%
>of the units hand out
>the same or more tags
>than applicants in the random
>draw.

***Now go back and look at those units that only comprise 33% and see what and where they are Mr. Expert! They all lack decent access for the average Joe DIY hunter because there is either little or no public ground that is there or accessible because it's landlocked by private ranches. That's just more deceiving stats that you seem to be able to come up with very easily. You name isn;t Hicks is it, LOL?!!! Are you aware that when someone puts in for a tag that they want to use it and go hunting? Fat chance in most of those units you mentioned unless you pay big dollars for ranch access or a guided hunt!!!

>Buzz, I know you are aware
>that a high % of
>nonres apply each year for
>pref pts rather than units.
> Obviously a large chunk
>of nonres apply only for
>pref pts each year to
>"build pts." I expect
>this is where you are
>coming up with numbers of
>nonres w/max pts rather than
>those that actually apply for
>tags? I actually like
>those applicants because they don't
>compete for great tags that
>I draw quite often!

***There you go again with you and your "great tag!!!
>
>The fact is there are only
>6 antelope buck units out
>of 119 that take max
>pts to draw in the
>special draw. You will
>have a tough time convincing
>me or others that 95%
>of antelope, 85% of deer,
>and 57% of all elk
>units that can be drawn
>with 3-4 pref pts isn't
>a fantastic deal?

***Now I see we're back to the BS Special Draw numbers again to try and skew things. If the system was so great, why aren't a zillion people putting in for those tags? Answer---Because most people can't afford them! Oh, and you never answered my question as to whether those "great" tags you draw were obtained by paying the exorbitant prices in the Special Draws!!!
>
>Plain and simple the majority of
>nonres applicants filter through the
>system at a fairly quick
>rate. Those that draw
>tags in this system go
>to the end of the
>pref pt pool; however, they
>are immediately eligible to draw
>tags in the random draw
>and it doesn't take many
>years to draw good to
>excellent tags.

***You are so full of baloney with those statements that it's ridiculous. If people were filtering through the entire system at a great rate there wouldn't be terrible draw odds in so many units, especially for deer and elk---DUH! Again you keep talking about antelope and we all know that is the species with the best opportunity overall in the state. Keep skewing though!!!
>
>I expect the complaint of most
>Wyo res is that those
>that draw tags don't go
>to the end of the
>line in the current random
>draw. Those that apply
>for years and years never
>get any closer to drawing
>tags and their draw odds
>continue to slowly decrease over
>years. With the random
>system more and more hunters
>apply for tags each year
>as new hunters apply plus
>those that draw tags immediately
>return to apply. In
>all reality young hunters will
>have less and less chance
>to draw tags as the
>Wyoming population grows and more
>young hunters apply with a
>random draw system.

***Here again you are WRONG! The odds may be worse, but EVERYONE has the same chance at the availbale tags---DUH!!!
>
>I like the fact that I
>can plan the years I
>will draw tags with the
>current nonres random/pref pt system...and
>as I've mentioned once or
>twice I have drawn a
>bunch of great tags over
>the years!

***Once or twice my azz!!! You end every one of your friggin posts with that assinine "great" or "excellent" tag comment!!! You don't draw "those kind of tags" over the 6 years of the NR PP System if they are what 99% of us use those words to describe. Take care Mr. Hicks and keep coming up with more BS we can refute so easily!
 
Buzz and Topgun, I'm merely stating facts directly from draw stats. 95% of antelope units, 85% of deer units, and 57% of elk units can currently be drawn with only 3-4 pref pts by nonres!

Only 3% of antelope, 8% of deer, and 17% of elk units currently require max pref pts to draw. 39% of the total antelope units have 100% draw odds by every nonres in the random REGULAR draw in 2012. 44% of the total deer units have 100% draw odds in the REGULAR nonres draw. 100% chance of drawing tags in 39 and 44% of the total antelope and deer units available to apply sounds pretty good to me...and this is for the cheap priced tags!

As stated once or twice before the current Wyo nonres pref pt system works great for drawing regular and special priced tags!
 
Of those being talked about, antelope are the only species that are totally limited in quota, and that's where the biggest effect would be seen in a preference system, and if we had a point system that's where the biggest benefit would be seen as far as spreading the tags out to more hunters.

Lots of pronghorn areas have around a 50% chance of drawing, and I could see some positive benefits in having a point system for those circumstances, it would help in youth recruitment as some of the unlucky kids probably wouldn't give up hunting if they could draw a buck tag once in a while

Its interesting to note the constant increase in applicants the state of Nevada sees every year, despite the odds, big game hunting seems alive and well in that state, It seems the point system there has worked fairly well.

A preference system capped at a maximum of three or four points, as that would take care of point creep, and group apps given the lowest persons in the groups number of points would be a moderate and fair way to distribute tags in my opinion.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-13 AT 09:03AM (MST)[p]Yea, and your facts and stats suck!!! Take your count on antelope units to come up with your percentages, as an example. You have stated several times about there being 119 units in total. Factually there are 115 antelope units and 15 of them have two seasons. Add 115 and 15 and that comes up to 130, not 119, so go back and redo all your counts and stats and if you can't do better than you've done so far, don't come back!!! You just won't admit that many units have odds that skew the total because they have poor access and people can't put in for them if they have no place to hunt and that's especially true of antelope that you keep stressing. You cannot just give one stat and say it proves your point when someone else can come right back with another stat or two that is fact and that negates your numbers!
FACT: 43 of the first 46 antelope units showing for this years draw are marked as having limited access to the public. That's 3 that don't, so that 46 units is 35.4% of the total units without even going through and counting the rest up to see how many of the others have limied access! If you then go to the draw odds for 2012, you can see that almost all of those 46 units were simple to draw because nobody could get on public land to use the tags available. That's just one FACT alone that skews all the numbers you keep spouting.
 
Jims.....There is only so many tags. (period) If there are more hunters than tags then someone is not going to hunt. That generally is the one that has to have a premium hunt or they don't want to go, their choice. What the point system does is make it harder for the guy who wants to hunt more ever have a shot at the good units. I'm sure you will not change your mind on what benefits you the most. I'm living the point deal every day of my life, here in Oregon and as a NR hunter with points in Wyoming and Utah. Every day my Utah points become less valuable as they sell off more tags to the highest bidder, which I can promise you Wyoming will do more of. I only have 17 years tied up there. At least in Idaho, which I have my lifetime license, I can put in for the very best units every year and dream about drawing a tag. Here in Oregon I will never hunt the big units unless I win the lottery. Oh yah I don't play so that isn't happening. So no dreaming about Oregon's trophy units for me.

DZ
 
SF85 passed committee 8-1 with ammendments: ceiling on points $10.00 and 50/50 pref point/random draw
 
Bunch of cheapos out there, LOL! At least it was changed to a 50/50 split to move it forward. If they had to go that route to get it out of committee, maybe it will never get to the Governor's desk.
 
Makes it cheaper to buy extra participants now you can don 10 people for under 200$ and own the system lol
 
>SF85 passed committee 8-1 with ammendments:
>ceiling on points $10.00 and
>50/50 pref point/random draw

Nice!!! Does 50% random still mean the kiddies will never get to hunt? Or you'll never draw a tag until yer 87 years old. Sounds like most of the BS being propogated by the Messiah and his toadies just got blown out of the water. Look at this way Buzz, you'll still be able to draw a deer area 90 tag every year or was it 34, I can't remember.


Thanks for the info JM and keep up the good work...
 
>>SF85 passed committee 8-1 with ammendments:
>>ceiling on points $10.00 and
>>50/50 pref point/random draw
>
>Nice!!! Does 50% random still
>mean the kiddies will never
>get to hunt? Or
>you'll never draw a tag
>until yer 87 years old.
> Sounds like most
>of the BS being propogated
>by the Messiah and his
>toadies just got blown out
>of the water. Look
>at this way Buzz, you'll
>still be able to draw
>a deer area 90 tag
>every year or was it
>34, I can't remember.
>
>
>Thanks for the info JM and
>keep up the good work...
>


Actually the need to amend it in committee shows exactly how weak the bill was... What do most of you not get? There are other alternatives to a PP system and why would anyone not want those options looked at? It wont belong before the same crybabies that complaining about never getting a tag are going to be mad because they have max points and their neighbor draws the 50/50 random tags 2-3 times while they still have max points.

Why does this legislation have to pass through now, and not be tabled until all hunters in WY have a chance to weigh in on different systems?

Why not look at a bonus point system which seems to have the most support even from both sides of the issue, or a wait period for limited draw, etc. Why not do another survey that is well written and pull the entire hunting population? Using today's numbers and the direction of management?

This would only makes sense but not cents.
 
I guess we will see what happens on the vote. I bet some Representatives will consider the repercussions on this one. Budget issues and tax increases are easily forgotten come re-election time. I'm not sure small town Representatives will want to gamble on hunting issues being forgotten.
 
>>SF85 passed committee 8-1 with ammendments:
>>ceiling on points $10.00 and
>>50/50 pref point/random draw
>
>Nice!!! Does 50% random still
>mean the kiddies will never
>get to hunt? Or
>you'll never draw a tag
>until yer 87 years old.
> Sounds like most
>of the BS being propogated
>by the Messiah and his
>toadies just got blown out
>of the water. Look
>at this way Buzz, you'll
>still be able to draw
>a deer area 90 tag
>every year or was it
>34, I can't remember.
>
>
>Thanks for the info JM and
>keep up the good work...

Figured we'd hear from you quickly, LOL! Is it nice that they dropped the fee for all the cheapo residents, for the complete change to 50/50 which we never discussed, or both? By the way, don't count your chickens until a Bill goes through and is signed into law by your Governor and you're a long way from there yet boobie!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-13 AT 12:08PM (MST)[p]Topgun, You are absolutely right...none of the units with tough access have any good hunting and should be totally ignored. I'm sure you and Buzz have never hunted any of these units?

You are correct that my stats may not reflect every unit. Some didn't offer any tags, etc. I may be off by a fraction of a % or 2 but I think everyone but you gets the idea!

"APPROXIMATELY" 95% of antelope units, 85% of deer, and 57% of elk units in Wyo can be drawn with 3 to 4 pref pts. That is pretty good odds of guaranteed tags in only a few years of applying! Both regular and special draw odds are pretty good in all but the 3 to 6% of the units that are the toughest in the state to draw. If you choose to apply for the toughest draw tags in the state they may take a lifetime to draw whether there is a random or some type of pt system draw. You may NEVER draw these tags in a random draw but with any pt system other than a pure pref pt system your odds will improve the longer you apply.

DZ, Just because units are the toughest to draw in the state doesn't particularly mean they are the only great units in the state with super bucks and bulls. Buzz would have to agree with me on this one because that is exactly what he has posted several times and hunts just about every year. It may take a lot of research, door pounding, and scouting to figure this out...but it is possible to draw fantastic units in Wyo as a nonres w/the current random/pref pt system!

Topgun, I think you could find a way of criticizing every one of my posts...even if I wrote nothing more than a giant "X" on a page! Lett'r rip Topgun!
 
I agree Richard Cranium that we're still a long ways away from this becoming law and have noted on a number of posts it was a long shot. Hopefully they can get this passed as well as an increase in license fees and it'll have been a good session...

>Figured we'd hear from you quickly,
>LOL! Is it nice
>that they dropped the fee
>for all the cheapo residents,
>for the complete change to
>50/50 which we never discussed,
>or both? By the
>way, don't count your chickens
>until a Bill goes through
>and is signed into law
>by your Governor and you're
>a long way from there
>yet boobie!
 
Triple_BB,

RE: License increases:

I guess you didn't see HB260 (residents) failed COW. So, it's out.

HB236 (non residents) was "Introduced and referred to H06; No report prior to CoW Cutoff".

The WY legislature website states:
""S Introduced and Referred to S02; No Report Prior to CoW Cutoff" = the bill was introduced in the Senate and assigned to the Senate appropriations committee. However, the committee did not report the bill out in time to be placed on General file prior to the cutoff date for bills to be considered in committee of the whole. There will likely be no further action taken on this bill during the session."

It appears no license increases for anyone this session.
 

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