Sheep Point $$

newguy

Active Member
Messages
312
There has been a lot of chatter on another thread regarding the value sheep preference points, so I decided to look into it a little bit. First of all, these are an absolute cash cow for Wyoming. Last year 11,349 people bought a point at $150 each for a total of $1,702,350, if you divide that by the total number of NR tags 45 (this is including the random tags) they are getting $37,830 for every nonresident tag, and this doesn’t even include the actual cost of the tag. So obviously if/when the quotas are dropped to 10% there will be a total of 18 NR tags, (assuming total tag numbers stay the same and the same amount of people bought points) the state would be getting $94,575 for every NR sheep tag sold.



Then I looked into what the chances of someone actually using their points are. Under the current quotas and system figuring a 10% fall off rate due to death or just giving up, nobody with less than 18 points now would have any chance of drawing a tag in the preference pool in the next 50 years. Keep everything the same and drop the nr quota to 10% and no one with less than 21 points currently would have any chance of using them in the next 50 years, and if it went to 50/50 random and preference then no one with less than 22 points would ever really have a chance of using them.



I am not sure why I did this, just curious I guess, obviously people can do what they want with their money, but points bought by anyone with less than 15 points under the current system basically have no value whatsoever. The only exception would be if someone was young enough, they can try to outlive everyone with more points. If they switched to a bonus point system, I guess the points would then have a very small amount of value, but in my eyes, you would have a much better chance trying to turn the $150 into $40,000 at a casino and buying a sheep hunt. But again, everyone can do what they want. I did not spend a ton of time on this so if someone sees anything incorrect, please let me know,



Cue Buzz to call me a baby and post a bunch of pictures.



Mark
 
Anybody that thinks your "odds" of turning $150 into $40k at a casino, are better than drawing a sheep tag, probably shouldn't be giving out advice on either.

I'll continue to buy points in MT, NV, UT, AZ, WY, etc.

Another thing I consider is that management costs money. I look at hunting/fishing licenses, buying points, etc. as contributions to the future of wildlife. If I eventually get a benefit from buying points, great. If not, its not life changing money and I hunt more each year than most do in ten. Paying a couple/few grand a year between my wife and I for NR applications, points, etc...its the least we can do.

I'm very happy that I'm at a place where I don't have to fret over a $150 contribution to wildlife.

Must suck to have to worry about such nonsense.
 
As far as gambling the money, here is a quote from you

“Take the money you save by not applying for sheep this year and buying a point...buy chances at the trifecta and/or sheep raffle tags.

Probably better odds and you don't have to buy a point.”

Your odds of hitting 9 hands of black Jack in a row are about 2/1000, which would put you well over $40,000 if you started with $150, I don’t believe if the points are turned to bonus points anyone in the lower half will have that good of odds of drawing a tag.

You can make all of the assumptions you want about my finances I don't care, it’s great that you apply in all of those states for the good of the animals, is there any states that you don’t apply because you don’t think it is worth it?

Wyoming’s system of selling preference points is a very expensive if you want to get them for multiple species, and people are buying sheep points thinking they will have a reasonable chance to use them on a sheep tag, and the reality is they won’t.

Mark
 
As far as gambling the money, here is a quote from you

“Take the money you save by not applying for sheep this year and buying a point...buy chances at the trifecta and/or sheep raffle tags.

Probably better odds and you don't have to buy a point.”

Your odds of hitting 9 hands of black Jack in a row are about 2/1000, which would put you well over $40,000 if you started with $150, I don’t believe if the points are turned to bonus points anyone in the lower half will have that good of odds of drawing a tag.

You can make all of the assumptions you want about my finances I don't care, it’s great that you apply in all of those states for the good of the animals, is there any states that you don’t apply because you don’t think it is worth it?

Wyoming’s system of selling preference points is a very expensive if you want to get them for multiple species, and people are buying sheep points thinking they will have a reasonable chance to use them on a sheep tag, and the reality is they won’t.

Mark
My odds when I drew my desert sheep tag in 2012 in AZ were about 1/200...so roughly 5 times better odds than winning 40K in a casino in Vegas playing black jack. I was in the random pool with only 11 points. There are not many sheep odds that run as high as 1/2000...take a look for yourself.

Yes, I also buy raffle tags for sheep, moose, goat, elk, deer, pronghorn as well. Still better odds than playing black jack in Vegas and in some cases, better odds than drawing through the state draws.

What's your point?

In both cases the wildlife you pretend to care so much about and the sport you alledgedly care so much about, benefit from both of those. The odds increase if you do both, apply for state draws, and raffles.

Its simply another way for me to support wildlife via funding to the GF agencies. I view it as a long term investment in both hunting's future, and wildlife in the event that I do draw a tag or at the very least to ensure that others have a great hunt when they do.

I like knowing that wardens are patrolling for poachers, biologists are being funded to correctly manage, that wardens/biologists don't have to drive 1978 dodge power wagons to work locations, and all the other things that cost money regarding proper wildlife management.

If buying a point for $150 assures all that? Money well spent and worth every dime whether or not I draw a tag or not, or even if those points never do my odds any good. You also have choices, like don't apply, apply in another state that you perceive has better "value", take up golf, fish more, or even take your happy $150 to Vegas for those 1/2000 odds of making 40k.

People, you included, blow money on meaningless crap multitudes less beneficial to anyone...let alone the wildlife and sport you claim to care about.
 
My odds when I drew my desert sheep tag in 2012 in AZ were about 1/200...so roughly 5 times better odds than winning 40K in a casino in Vegas playing black jack. I was in the random pool with only 11 points. There are not many sheep odds that run as high as 1/2000...take a look for yourself.

Yes, I also buy raffle tags for sheep, moose, goat, elk, deer, pronghorn as well. Still better odds than playing black jack in Vegas and in some cases, better odds than drawing through the state draws.

What's your point?

In both cases the wildlife you pretend to care so much about and the sport you alledgedly care so much about, benefit from both of those. The odds increase if you do both, apply for state draws, and raffles.

Its simply another way for me to support wildlife via funding to the GF agencies. I view it as a long term investment in both hunting's future, and wildlife in the event that I do draw a tag or at the very least to ensure that others have a great hunt when they do.

I like knowing that wardens are patrolling for poachers, biologists are being funded to correctly manage, that wardens/biologists don't have to drive 1978 dodge power wagons to work locations, and all the other things that cost money regarding proper wildlife management.

If buying a point for $150 assures all that? Money well spent and worth every dime whether or not I draw a tag or not, or even if those points never do my odds any good. You also have choices, like don't apply, apply in another state that you perceive has better "value", take up golf, fish more, or even take your happy $150 to Vegas for those 1/2000 odds of making 40k.

People, you included, blow money on meaningless crap multitudes less beneficial to anyone...let alone the wildlife and sport you claim to care about.
I’m not sure about your math, odds I stated were 2/1000 which is 1/500 but no big deal.

In an effort to avoid another long post can you please just answer my question. Is there any states that you don’t put in for because you don’t think it’s worth it?

If you don’t want to answer just say so.

Mark
 
I’m not sure about your math, odds I stated were 2/1000 which is 1/500 but no big deal.

In an effort to avoid another long post can you please just answer my question. Is there any states that you don’t put in for because you don’t think it’s worth it?

If you don’t want to answer just say so.

Mark
No.
 
Hey look at that, you actually replied directly to something.

I get that there are not enough sheep to go around, and I get that the residents want all of the tags for themselves, I just think the money grab for these points which are basically useless is taking advantage of things a bit. As I said before, if they can get the money from the consumer then good on them I guess, just too bad for the guy that doesn’t do the research.

Mark
 
A guy with 10 sheep points had 10 years to figure it out and make the decision to fund the dept with his points purchases, or not.
 
Hey look at that, you actually replied directly to something.

I get that there are not enough sheep to go around, and I get that the residents want all of the tags for themselves, I just think the money grab for these points which are basically useless is taking advantage of things a bit. As I said before, if they can get the money from the consumer then good on them I guess, just too bad for the guy that doesn’t do the research.

Mark
Willing seller, willing buyer...nobody is getting taken advantage of.
 
Willing seller, willing buyer...nobody is getting taken advantage of.
Really? if the change to 90/10 goes through, the non-resident with 21 points feels like he is definitely getting taken advantage of! Can't get out of the game now for those people. Going from very likely to draw a tag in their 50s, to maybe drawing in their 80s is being taken advantage of when the rug is pulled out and the game changed.

I have stated this annually so won't go into details and rehash everything or get into a pissing match. I respect Buzz and what he has done for wildlife in Wyoming and other places, it is awesome, big pat on the back for that, thank you. He also stated a few years back that he wouldn't support switching the game on non-residents as it wasn't fair....basically it was taking advantage of those who invested so much money in WY G&F.

I understand peoples opinions change, but it is still just plain not fair. Perhaps illegal on a bait and switch scam. I think if Wyoming does not want a lawsuit, they need to offer a refund on the points or offer a long-time period to keep the rules as they are....those are my 2 cents anyway.

From someone who might have 21 useless sheep points, so close.
 
Willing seller, willing buyer...nobody is getting taken advantage of.
Somewhat true, I would venture to guess that the majority of the people just getting in have no idea that there is really no value to what they are buying. I feel that when I sell something I do my best to make sure the person I am selling it to knows what they are getting, I am not sure that is happening here. The buyer holds some responsibility but to me the hole thing is a bit messy.

Mark
 
I understand peoples opinions change, but it is still just plain not fair. Perhaps illegal on a bait and switch scam. I think if Wyoming does not want a lawsuit, they need to offer a refund on the points or offer a long-time period to keep the rules as they are....those are my 2 cents anyway.

From someone who might have 21 useless sheep points, so close.
Are we starting a list of things that will never happen?

#1 Wyoming will refund money spent on sheep points
#2 Elkass will draw SJ elk.
#3
#4
#5
#6
#7
#8
#9
#10

feel free to add others
 
newguy you are correct at this point it's basically a donation to Wyoming Game and Fish Department. which is fine for those who want to contribute
 
#3 Buzz H will support something that helps NR in Wyoming
I believe Buzz has helped support a number of things that help NR. Pretty sure he supported getting the NR elk draw results moved back to May and that’s a big plus for a lot of us. I know I have benefited from it.
 
I guess that is a timing thing. I liked it better when the results were earlier. Not sure the advantage of later results, they still make us apply early.
 
I had 15 points in 2015 and applied in one of the "marginal" physically tougher units where an outfitter of resident needed to accompany me. I didn't want to wait for something that might or might not happen in a "better" area. We've all seen this coming for 7 or 8 years so it's no surprise!

My son was going to apply in 2017 with 17 points and would have drawn but was taken home too soon by a fall in the mountains.

I feel bad for my daughter who has a desert and a dall but isn't up there with points enough to stay in the game....maybe

If someone has >21 points going into this year, it's because they didn't want one of the tougher units or didn't want to hire an outfitter. This has worked against them for sure.

I understand that guys with fewer point "might" want to drop out but attrition will come into play at an ever increasing level and points will become "more" valuable.

No! I don't like the 90/10 change BUT this resource belongs to the RESIDENTS of Wyoming and they have been kind enough to allow me and my family to make near countless trips to Wyoming over the decades.

PS: I read every single post in the 90/10 thread and had one big take-away: a freakin' headache!

Zeke
 
I guess that is a timing thing. I liked it better when the results were earlier. Not sure the advantage of later results, they still make us apply early.
I guess earlier had its advantages also. Later a big advantage is being able to withdrawl your app if you draw a tag somewhere else that conflicts. Also being able to modify your app if tag numbers change, etc.
 
Hasn't it been spelled out 50 times that preference points are not a guarantee for a tag

I am sitting with 21 resident moose points and the bonus point system may effect me. For starters it is partially my fault cause i could of drawn a tag in another area i don't care to draw. Thats on me. But if this change comes all i can do is attend meetings and stress my concern and it is what it is. Maybe the bonus points will suck, maybe it will be great. Time will tell.
 
I guess that is a timing thing. I liked it better when the results were earlier. Not sure the advantage of later results, they still make us apply early.
Right because you don't care about having appropriate tag allocations for both R and NR.

Bet you didn't realize that NR's were not drawing a single tag from any new elk seasons proposed that the GF couldn't allow you to apply for until they were approved by the commission. Meaning that Residents were drawing every single tag for those new seasons the first year they were available.

You also don't care that Biologists were able to completely do away with an unnecessary meeting in December...saving budget money for other things.

Or that Biologists can have the harvest data, classification data, bull to cow ratio's etc. PRIOR to season setting to make the best decisions they can for wildlife. Also, so that the commission can function with the best available data like they do with sheep, moose, goat, bison, upland bird, deer, and all the rest.

I won't apologize for taking away your "convenience" being disrupted to ensure that we manage our wildlife in the best possible way.

If you want to complain about the early application date, call the WOGA, they pushed hard for that.
 
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I understand peoples opinions change, but it is still just plain not fair.

From someone who might have 21 useless sheep points, so close.
BWAHAHAHA!!!!!! CRY ME A RIVER……………
DE22686B-D23B-4E08-AC92-4569F48BF8B2.jpeg
 
Newguy, please tell us what you're doing in your home state for NR.
In my state the only animal of any abundance is deer, and for them nonresidents and residents go into the same pool. A nonresident can even just show up and buy two buck tags over the counter and go hunt one of several wilderness areas without a guide, and if you learn them can really have some decent hunting. Elk and Antelope are basically once in a lifetime for residents if your lucky, and sheep are probably once in five lifetimes. I think they only give one nonresident tag for each so I would definitely not advise a nonresident to waste money building points for them, unless of course they wanted to do it in the name of conservation.

To directly answer your question, I have done nothing to help nonresidents, besides take quite a few of them duck hunting (let me know if you want to go, it can be very good), but I am not sure why that is relevant. I have not asked anyone from Wyoming to do anything for nonresidents, I was just providing information on the finances of sheep points and that anyone near the bottom will likely never really get any increases draw odds from them. I have also never done anything to try and make things worse for nonresidents, but that is not really relevant either because I have not blamed Wyoming residents for trying to increase their quotas.

Would you advise someone getting started to be building sheep points in Wyoming?

Mark
 
I’m 22 sheep. Wife is 20 moose. We think this all is a bunch of bullshit. I started when I was 29 years old. It’s as if they let the non $7 guys get cleaned up and then started to change the scam on the rest of us. It’s a shell game.
Use them wisely...you have options.
 
In my state the only animal of any abundance is deer, and for them nonresidents and residents go into the same pool. A nonresident can even just show up and buy two buck tags over the counter and go hunt one of several wilderness areas without a guide, and if you learn them can really have some decent hunting. Elk and Antelope are basically once in a lifetime for residents if your lucky, and sheep are probably once in five lifetimes. I think they only give one nonresident tag for each so I would definitely not advise a nonresident to waste money building points for them, unless of course they wanted to do it in the name of conservation.

To directly answer your question, I have done nothing to help nonresidents, besides take quite a few of them duck hunting (let me know if you want to go, it can be very good), but I am not sure why that is relevant. I have not asked anyone from Wyoming to do anything for nonresidents, I was just providing information on the finances of sheep points and that anyone near the bottom will likely never really get any increases draw odds from them. I have also never done anything to try and make things worse for nonresidents, but that is not really relevant either because I have not blamed Wyoming residents for trying to increase their quotas.

Would you advise someone getting started to be building sheep points in Wyoming?

Mark
If they want to hunt sheep, yes I would tell them to build points and apply.

Can't win if you don't apply.
 
have some decent hunting. Elk and Antelope are basically once in a lifetime for residents if your lucky, and sheep are probably once in five lifetimes. I think they only give one nonresident tag for each so I would definitely not advise a nonresident to waste money building points for them, unless of course they wanted to do it in the name of conservation.

To directly answer your question, I have done nothing to help nonresidents, besides take quite a few of them duck hunting (let me know if you want to go, it can be very good), but I am not sure why that is relevant. I have not asked anyone from Wyoming to do anything for nonresidents, I was just providing information on the finances of sheep points and that anyone near the bottom will likely never really get any increases draw odds from them. I have also never done anything to try and make things worse for nonresidents, but that is not really relevant either because I have not blamed Wyoming residents for trying to increase their quotas.

Would you advise someone getting started to be building sheep points in Wyoming?

Mark
[/QUOTE]

I would probably try in the random pool if you're just starting out. Tags are tough to draw all over the west. That goes for all species. I apply in states with extremely tough odds and will continue as long as I have a small chance. I've been lucky in some states, not so much in others. I've thought about getting out of the Utah point game, but I will stay the course for the time being. Someone has to draw.....right........maybe.
 
If they want to hunt sheep, yes I would tell them to build points and apply.

Can't win if you don't apply.
If just starting out my advice would be to tell them to apply and opt out of the $150 point until WY closes that loophole.

They have a slim chance to draw a random tag but will never live long enough for a preference point sheep tag at the current 80/20, let alone the 90/10 once that passes. Aside from the wildlife donation angle/argument, they are simply throwing their money away IMO.

I will say I continue to be surprised why so many NR no or low point holders continue to pay $150 for a point. I was anticipating that the NR preference point revenue would have started to decline by now once the NR‘s started seeing the 90/10 handwriting on the wall, and that in turn would require another increase in the preference point cost to offset the drop in revenue…

Horniac
 
If just starting out my advice would be to tell them to apply and opt out of the $150 point until WY closes that loophole.

They have a slim chance to draw a random tag but will never live long enough for a preference point sheep tag at the current 80/20, let alone the 90/10 once that passes. Aside from the wildlife donation angle/argument, they are simply throwing their money away IMO.

I will say I continue to be surprised why so many NR no or low point holders continue to pay $150 for a point. I was anticipating that the NR preference point revenue would have started to decline by now once the NR‘s started seeing the 90/10 handwriting on the wall, and that in turn would require another increase in the preference point cost to offset the drop in revenue…

Horniac
Do you understand the bonus point concept and points squared? Odds will improve considerably as a new joiner with a system like that.
 
If just starting out my advice would be to tell them to apply and opt out of the $150 point until WY closes that loophole.

They have a slim chance to draw a random tag but will never live long enough for a preference point sheep tag at the current 80/20, let alone the 90/10 once that passes. Aside from the wildlife donation angle/argument, they are simply throwing their money away IMO.

I will say I continue to be surprised why so many NR no or low point holders continue to pay $150 for a point. I was anticipating that the NR preference point revenue would have started to decline by now once the NR‘s started seeing the 90/10 handwriting on the wall, and that in turn would require another increase in the preference point cost to offset the drop in revenue…

Horniac
The one constant...the game will always change.

I would argue that those that chose to buy the points that now have 4-20 points were smart if this moves to a squared bonus point system.

They will have much better odds at say 10 points squared than a first time applicant.

Money well spent?

I can make a compelling argument that their investment may have been a very wise decision if this goes to squared bonus points.

YMMV.
 
If just starting out my advice would be to tell them to apply and opt out of the $150 point until WY closes that loophole.

They have a slim chance to draw a random tag but will never live long enough for a preference point sheep tag at the current 80/20, let alone the 90/10 once that passes. Aside from the wildlife donation angle/argument, they are simply throwing their money away IMO.

I will say I continue to be surprised why so many NR no or low point holders continue to pay $150 for a point. I was anticipating that the NR preference point revenue would have started to decline by now once the NR‘s started seeing the 90/10 handwriting on the wall, and that in turn would require another increase in the preference point cost to offset the drop in revenue…

Horniac

I have found most guys dont really pay attention. I'm sure a lot dont understand the difference in preference vs bonus points.
 
Right, 35k for the hunt, another couple grand for travel, GST tax, at least a $3500 tip, licenses...you aren't getting away with 40K...fact. Its great to lie to the old lady so they let you go telling her it's "only 35K"...

Unless you're a total deadbeat and stiff your guide out of a 10% tip...even then, probably wont get out for 40K.
 
Right, 35k for the hunt, another couple grand for travel, GST tax, at least a $3500 tip, licenses...you aren't getting away with 40K...fact. Its great to lie to the old lady so they let you go telling her it's "only 35K"...

Unless you're a total deadbeat and stiff your guide out of a 10% tip...even then, probably wont get out for 40K.

Lol...ok, let's try this one...fantasyland is

How did the unlimiteds not get brought up sooner!!! Multiple threads and 6 pages and no one said if you want hunt sheep go unlimited.
 
After travel, GST tax, rooms before and after your hunt, taxidermy, licenses, tips,....

Its not happening for 40K anywhere but fantasyland.
I guess you don’t have to pay your taxidermy bill in Wyoming once you draw a tag, That changes everything.

Mark
 
If just starting out my advice would be to tell them to apply and opt out of the $150 point until WY closes that loophole.

They have a slim chance to draw a random tag but will never live long enough for a preference point sheep tag at the current 80/20, let alone the 90/10 once that passes. Aside from the wildlife donation angle/argument, they are simply throwing their money away IMO.

I will say I continue to be surprised why so many NR no or low point holders continue to pay $150 for a point. I was anticipating that the NR preference point revenue would have started to decline by now once the NR‘s started seeing the 90/10 handwriting on the wall, and that in turn would require another increase in the preference point cost to offset the drop in revenue…

Horniac
That was my main thought as well. 1200 people got their first point this year which to me is crazy, even if they go to a weighted point system, once the quota has been cut with the thousands of people in front of them the benefit of those points will be nonexistent. Wyoming must be very good at marketing.

Mark
 
have some decent hunting. Elk and Antelope are basically once in a lifetime for residents if your lucky, and sheep are probably once in five lifetimes. I think they only give one nonresident tag for each so I would definitely not advise a nonresident to waste money building points for them, unless of course they wanted to do it in the name of conservation.

To directly answer your question, I have done nothing to help nonresidents, besides take quite a few of them duck hunting (let me know if you want to go, it can be very good), but I am not sure why that is relevant. I have not asked anyone from Wyoming to do anything for nonresidents, I was just providing information on the finances of sheep points and that anyone near the bottom will likely never really get any increases draw odds from them. I have also never done anything to try and make things worse for nonresidents, but that is not really relevant either because I have not blamed Wyoming residents for trying to increase their quotas.

Would you advise someone getting started to be building sheep points in Wyoming?

Mark

I would probably try in the random pool if you're just starting out. Tags are tough to draw all over the west. That goes for all species. I apply in states with extremely tough odds and will continue as long as I have a small chance. I've been lucky in some states, not so much in others. I've thought about getting out of the Utah point game, but I will stay the course for the time being. Someone has to draw.....right........maybe.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for answering. I agree with this. At this point you are not gaining anything by buying the points, of course if somebody wants to do it as a gesture to conservation then by all means have it.

Good luck on your draws.

Mark
 
I would probably try in the random pool if you're just starting out. Tags are tough to draw all over the west. That goes for all species. I apply in states with extremely tough odds and will continue as long as I have a small chance. I've been lucky in some states, not so much in others. I've thought about getting out of the Utah point game, but I will stay the course for the time being. Someone has to draw.....right........maybe.

Thanks for answering. I agree with this. At this point you are not gaining anything by buying the points, of course if somebody wants to do it as a gesture to conservation then by all means have it.

Good luck on your draws.

Mark
[/QUOTE]

Not true.

If 2 people start applying this year for sheep in Wyoming, one buys points the other doesnt.

In 2028 when they switch to a squared point systems, the guy that has 6 squared bonus points will have his name in the hat 37 times (36+1 for the current year), the guy that didn't will have 1 name in the hat.

Still want to argue that the guy buying points has no advantage over the guy that didn't?
 
Your odds will never be any worse by buying points...another fact.
That is indeed a fact, the question is will they be any better. As I stated in my original post if everything else stays the same when they switch to 90/10, Wyoming will be getting over $90,000 for every nonresident sheep tag sold. That should speak volumes as to what kind of value you are getting for your $150 point. Again good for a Wyoming for being able to get that kind of returns on those tags. I really just find the hole thing fascinating.

Mark
 
That is indeed a fact, the question is will they be any better. As I stated in my original post if everything else stays the same when they switch to 90/10, Wyoming will be getting over $90,000 for every nonresident sheep tag sold. That should speak volumes as to what kind of value you are getting for your $150 point. Again good for a Wyoming for being able to get that kind of returns on those tags. I really just find the hole thing fascinating.

Mark
Possibly will be better off...things change.

Lets just say that all of a sudden there is way to control movi in sheep herds...and suddenly there are 900-1000 sheep tags a year issued in Wyoming.

Or, in my last post, they change to squared to bonus points.

In those 2 cases, I'd much rather have the points, rather than wishing I did...
 
Thanks for answering. I agree with this. At this point you are not gaining anything by buying the points, of course if somebody wants to do it as a gesture to conservation then by all means have it.

Good luck on your draws.

Mark

Not true.

If 2 people start applying this year for sheep in Wyoming, one buys points the other doesnt.

In 2028 when they switch to a squared point systems, the guy that has 6 squared bonus points will have his name in the hat 37 times (36+1 for the current year), the guy that didn't will have 1 name in the hat.

Still want to argue that the guy buying points has no advantage over the guy that didn't?
[/QUOTE]

The guy with the 37 names in the hat will have a better chance than the guy with 1, just not anywhere near the 1/500 chance he would have in Vegas. You are going to call BS on that so I guess we will just have to wait the six years to find out.

Mark
 
Possibly will be better off...things change.

Lets just say that all of a sudden there is way to control movi in sheep herds...and suddenly there are 900-1000 sheep tags a year issued in Wyoming.

Or, in my last post, they change to squared to bonus points.

In those 2 cases, I'd much rather have the points, rather than wishing I did...
Don’t know anything about the moving sheep, let’s hope that happens, but in the meantime I will still be spending my money elsewhere. I would be happy for everyone that stuck it out though.

Thanks for the banter, I have enjoyed it. Have a good night.

Mark
 
Don’t know anything about the moving sheep, let’s hope that happens, but in the meantime I will still be spending my money elsewhere. I would be happy for everyone that stuck it out though.

Thanks for the banter, I have enjoyed it. Have a good night.

Mark
Movi...Google it
 
After travel, GST tax, rooms before and after your hunt, taxidermy, licenses, tips,....

Its not happening for 40K anywhere but fantasyland.
Nailed it. I know a half dozen guys who have done that hunt. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE of them had to go back a second time. $20k for hunt and $20k trophy fee. Seems fair enough. Seems to me maybe the first 12 days they hunted were maybe in an area without **** for sheep, and then miraculously the second year they found one. Bam. Outfitter makes $60k off one tag instead of $40k. Not to mention they are targeting barely legal rams. $60k+ all the other crap for a 140” sheep sucks if you ask me. That being said I’ve never killed a sheep so what do I know.
 
Can alway go this route. ???
Still have all the guide fees etc.
Some people have way to much money.

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WAYYYY........out of my league
 
I had 15 points in 2015 and applied in one of the "marginal" physically tougher units where an outfitter of resident needed to accompany me. I didn't want to wait for something that might or might not happen in a "better" area. We've all seen this coming for 7 or 8 years so it's no surprise!

My son was going to apply in 2017 with 17 points and would have drawn but was taken home too soon by a fall in the mountains.

I feel bad for my daughter who has a desert and a dall but isn't up there with points enough to stay in the game....maybe

If someone has >21 points going into this year, it's because they didn't want one of the tougher units or didn't want to hire an outfitter. This has worked against them for sure.

I understand that guys with fewer point "might" want to drop out but attrition will come into play at an ever increasing level and points will become "more" valuable.

No! I don't like the 90/10 change BUT this resource belongs to the RESIDENTS of Wyoming and they have been kind enough to allow me and my family to make near countless trips to Wyoming over the decades.

PS: I read every single post in the 90/10 thread and had one big take-away: a freakin' headache!

Zeke
Zeke, it sounds like you were one point ahead of me and as you mentioned those with greater than 21 could have drawn multiple units in multiple years, but those with 21 and less are the ones just waiting a few more years that are most effected. You go from hunting sheep in your 50s to hunting them in your 70s (spending $150 per year for two more decades to get to 41 points) to likely not hunting them if you go to bonus points. It is a double edged sword for those with 21 points (like me), 90/10 takes half of the tags away and then a bonus point system will get you with the other edge.

If you have 19 or less, a bonus point system might be better, but if you are in the 20 or 21+ range a preference point system is vastly better and what those who have paid into for two decades assumed would continue.

I understand the resource allocation can change and the courts have ruled that the animals belong to the state, but is disingenuous to raise the price for a preference point over time up to $150 (and bring in millions of dollars per year for well over a decade) and then change the allocation. I am so sorry about your son, I can't imagine.
 
We’re you successful?
That's a viable option...most cant hack it and IMO/E a 5+ year commitment may get you a shot at a ram.

Did that a few years myself...last I recall, tag was $1250, which isn't bad
 
Is there any talk or reason to believe that Wyoming is going to go to a bonus point system and away from the current pp system ?
 
I think saving 165k is a lot more realistic than drawing a tag with a .1% chance. For most people.

Lets see a show of hands of how many here could spend $180k on a sheep hunt. That tag went for $135k last year. Either inflation or that damn DIY NR that killed a 185+ ram driving prices up ??. By the time most people save that much a tag would probably be $500k plus.
 
Entitlement attitude is the biggest problem with points...
An opinion which you’re entitled to, but I think people just have the expectation of an honest and fair process that doesn’t arbitrarily change after 27+ years. Undoubtedly these proposed changes benefit the ones who are asking for the changes. Funny how someone can have the mindset that the state can’t retroactively institute a 1x a lifetime harvest on sheep, but then have no issues whatsoever with a foundational change to a system that has been in place for over a quarter century.
 
You know everyone complaining about cost, point and more could just use all that money to buy chances in the super tag…
 
An opinion which you’re entitled to, but I think people just have the expectation of an honest and fair process that doesn’t arbitrarily change after 27+ years. Undoubtedly these proposed changes benefit the ones who are asking for the changes. Funny how someone can have the mindset that the state can’t retroactively institute a 1x a lifetime harvest on sheep, but then have no issues whatsoever with a foundational change to a system that has been in place for over a quarter century.
They are making sheep and moose once in a lifetime retroactive to anyone that is or will be under the 5 year waiting period.

So saying they aren't is not accurate.
 
Lets see a show of hands of how many here could spend $180k on a sheep hunt. That tag went for $135k last year. Either inflation or that damn DIY NR that killed a 185+ ram driving prices up ??. By the time most people save that much a tag would probably be $500k plus.
Contrast that with the odds of living to the required 125 years of age Wyoming will require to get to the top of the pyramid. The obvious answer to all of this, which isn’t a solution, is putting more sheep on the mountain. I don’t think your estimates of inflation are likely to come to fruition but 10k a year for 10 years would have bought a lot of nice hunts at sheep show, most could do that if they really wanted to. And I see 40k+ tied up in a lot of hunting camp utvs. Choices are choices but “I can’t” is a lot of bs.
 
I actually like the bonus idea. Maybe I'm selfish, but I think Nevada is the best if there is to be a bonus type system. Just my opinion.....
 
Legal issues
Exactly my point, how can there be “legal issues” surrounding that thought process (M/S 1x lifetime for everyone), but to entirely restructure a preference point based draw system doesn’t elicit “legal issues?”

If there are thoughts about instituting some form of bonus point structure into only the random draw and keeping the preference point feature intact I don’t think the PP crowd would have any reason to feel like they were taken advantage of for almost three decades.
 
Exactly my point, how can there be “legal issues” surrounding that thought process (M/S 1x lifetime for everyone), but to entirely restructure a preference point based draw system doesn’t elicit “legal issues?”

If there are thoughts about instituting some form of bonus point structure into only the random draw and keeping the preference point feature intact I don’t think the PP crowd would have any reason to feel like they were taken advantage of for almost three decades.
Exactly!
 
Another thing that is very funny about this, nonresidents bought almost 12,000 preference points last year, but only 3,000 actually applied for a tag. I am not sure why on earth that would happen, they must think they will just get ten points and then draw a tag when they want. I guess they don’t apply because they don’t want to front the money, but they would be so much better off spending money on credit card interest and getting in the random draw than building points. Better odds for everyone else I guess.

Mark
 
Exactly my point, how can there be “legal issues” surrounding that thought process (M/S 1x lifetime for everyone), but to entirely restructure a preference point based draw system doesn’t elicit “legal issues?”

If there are thoughts about instituting some form of bonus point structure into only the random draw and keeping the preference point feature intact I don’t think the PP crowd would have any reason to feel like they were taken advantage of for almost three decades.
Start watching the task force meetings I'm not a secretary.

One of the task force members is a past states attorney general and a practicing attorney....(hint).
 
Another thing that is very funny about this, nonresidents bought almost 12,000 preference points last year, but only 3,000 actually applied for a tag. I am not sure why on earth that would happen, they must think they will just get ten points and then draw a tag when they want. I guess they don’t apply because they don’t want to front the money, but they would be so much better off spending money on credit card interest and getting in the random draw than building points. Better odds for everyone else I guess.

Mark
It is a couple hundred in non-refundable fees to apply, definitely part of the reason I stopped applying in the random in some instances. If less than 1% odds, might not be worth it to apply. And the main reason is, it is easier to plan when you draw with preference points which is a big deal for non-resident hunters with limited vacation days.
 
Exactly my point, how can there be “legal issues” surrounding that thought process (M/S 1x lifetime for everyone), but to entirely restructure a preference point based draw system doesn’t elicit “legal issues?”

If there are thoughts about instituting some form of bonus point structure into only the random draw and keeping the preference point feature intact I don’t think the PP crowd would have any reason to feel like they were taken advantage of for almost three decades.
How could you even begin to ask the state to implement something like that going back into the past of OIL, considering they don’t have records digitized going back 30, 40, or perhaps a few hunted even 50 years ago and for sure many of those old files got tossed years ago. Also, if any resident hunter is wise they just change their sportsperson ID number anyways after they draw. It seems like an impossible task to try and execute. Fantasyland. Besides, if we can get a handle on moose and sheep die offs and better management and survival practices we could change the law back to its original status.
 
There has been a lot of chatter on another thread regarding the value sheep preference points, so I decided to look into it a little bit. First of all, these are an absolute cash cow for Wyoming. Last year 11,349 people bought a point at $150 each for a total of $1,702,350, if you divide that by the total number of NR tags 45 (this is including the random tags) they are getting $37,830 for every nonresident tag, and this doesn’t even include the actual cost of the tag. So obviously if/when the quotas are dropped to 10% there will be a total of 18 NR tags, (assuming total tag numbers stay the same and the same amount of people bought points) the state would be getting $94,575 for every NR sheep tag sold.



Then I looked into what the chances of someone actually using their points are. Under the current quotas and system figuring a 10% fall off rate due to death or just giving up, nobody with less than 18 points now would have any chance of drawing a tag in the preference pool in the next 50 years. Keep everything the same and drop the nr quota to 10% and no one with less than 21 points currently would have any chance of using them in the next 50 years, and if it went to 50/50 random and preference then no one with less than 22 points would ever really have a chance of using them.



I am not sure why I did this, just curious I guess, obviously people can do what they want with their money, but points bought by anyone with less than 15 points under the current system basically have no value whatsoever. The only exception would be if someone was young enough, they can try to outlive everyone with more points. If they switched to a bonus point system, I guess the points would then have a very small amount of value, but in my eyes, you would have a much better chance trying to turn the $150 into $40,000 at a casino and buying a sheep hunt. But again, everyone can do what they want. I did not spend a ton of time on this so if someone sees anything incorrect, please let me know,



Cue Buzz to call me a baby and post a bunch of pictures.



Mark
Well, at least those who were unsuccessful got something for their money…a point!! Yay! Never mind that so did 99.9% of other applicants.
Points are a racket. That’s my opinion. Random the only fair way to go
 
Another thing that is very funny about this, nonresidents bought almost 12,000 preference points last year, but only 3,000 actually applied for a tag. I am not sure why on earth that would happen, they must think they will just get ten points and then draw a tag when they want. I guess they don’t apply because they don’t want to front the money, but they would be so much better off spending money on credit card interest and getting in the random draw than building points. Better odds for everyone else I guess.

Mark

Less than half the E/D/A applicants that have points actually apply for a hunt as well.
 
Just go spend a bunch of money at the $.f.w. con show year after year so those rich guys can keep hunting sheep on your dime!

They have 40 sheep tags available for gamble this year go make them rich and pick up a side of covid!
 
How could you even begin to ask the state to implement something like that going back into the past of OIL, considering they don’t have records digitized going back 30, 40, or perhaps a few hunted even 50 years ago and for sure many of those old files got tossed years ago. Also, if any resident hunter is wise they just change their sportsperson ID number anyways after they draw. It seems like an impossible task to try and execute. Fantasyland. Besides, if we can get a handle on moose and sheep die offs and better management and survival practices we could change the law back to its original status.
The only thing I asked is why, and never advocated a stance on the OIL issue. It was a rhetorical question. Agree, the disease issue is the biggest threat and we need a solution.
 
Well, at least those who were unsuccessful got something for their money…a point!! Yay! Never mind that so did 99.9% of other applicants.
Points are a racket. That’s my opinion. Random the only fair way to go
I would like to know how many on this forum complaining about the change to bonus points, have in the past complained about the PP system.

To those of you that did, you are the reason why we are changing to bonus points.

My advise to any of you sheep and moose point holders that have a chance to draw, is to start applying now. No need to worry about E/D & A, the outfitters will make sure that stays PP.
 
I would like to know how many on this forum complaining about the change to bonus points, have in the past complained about the PP system.

To those of you that did, you are the reason why we are changing to bonus points.

I dont know if this is entirely true. I think the reason for the discussion on the change to bonus points, is with 90/10 and a 50/50 split, there would be so few tags given out to preference point holders that many under 20 would stop purchasing points causing a big decrease to revenue. It wouldn't be overnight because as discussed many people don't understand point systems, but once gohunt, epic and huntinfool start writing articles saying no need for preference points there would be a decline. Going to bonus points, as mentioned, improves people's odd slightly over the long run. And everyone under 20 keeps buying points (we can debate value of a $150 point) but there is an incentive to keep buying.

I'm not sure it is people complaining that is driving the conversation but more of an economic one.
 
I dont know if this is entirely true. I think the reason for the discussion on the change to bonus points, is with 90/10 and a 50/50 split, there would be so few tags given out to preference point holders that many under 20 would stop purchasing points causing a big decrease to revenue. It wouldn't be overnight because as discussed many people don't understand point systems, but once gohunt, epic and huntinfool start writing articles saying no need for preference points there would be a decline. Going to bonus points, as mentioned, improves people's odd slightly over the long run. And everyone under 20 keeps buying points (we can debate value of a $150 point) but there is an incentive to keep buying.

I'm not sure it is people complaining that is driving the conversation but more of an economic one.
Right, and how many Task Force meetings did you attend? Maybe you saw me, I've been to all of them.
 
Right, and how many Task Force meetings did you attend? Maybe you saw me, I've been to all of them.

I didn't go to a single one, I'm a non resident and not arrogant enough to tell Wyoming what to do. Also, it wasn't me complaining.

I looked at it logically, there is possibly millions of dollars on the table, usually that has an impact on decisions.
 
It wouldn't be overnight because as discussed many people don't understand point systems, but once gohunt, epic and huntinfool start writing articles saying no need for preference points there would be a decline.
FYI, Epic mentioned three times in their latest Wyoming magazine that it is not worth applying for moose or sheep in Wyoming unless you have a lot of points and they are the ones that always push applying and getting points.
 
FYI, Epic mentioned three times in their latest Wyoming magazine that it is not worth applying for moose or sheep in Wyoming unless you have a lot of points and they are the ones that always push applying and getting points.
Would you agree that once Wyoming goes to bonus points, Epic may change their tune?
 
FYI, Epic mentioned three times in their latest Wyoming magazine that it is not worth applying for moose or sheep in Wyoming unless you have a lot of points and they are the ones that always push applying and getting points.
FYI, the guys at epic like better draw odds for themselves...
 
Would you agree that once Wyoming goes to bonus points, Epic may change their tune?
Is it for sure switching to bonus points?

Would you recommend that somebody just starting out buy points for sheep? I know I have asked this question to several others so thought I would ask you as well.

I am honestly not trying to get a rise out of anyone just some friendly chit chat/debate.

Mark
 
Is it for sure switching to bonus points?

Would you recommend that somebody just starting out buy points for sheep? I know I have asked this question to several others so thought I would ask you as well.

I am honestly not trying to get a rise out of anyone just some friendly chit chat/debate.

Mark
You honestly think these point schemes are never going to change for new applicants just starting out?

Go look at NV, MT, WY, NM, CO, UT...all have changed, multiple times.

Like I said, its better to have points when changes happen than wishing you did.
 
I am not sure where I said that they won’t change? Or that they shouldn’t change, just asked if it was for sure going to change, it was my understanding that changing to bonus points was still in question, but you and jm77 obviously know much more about it than me. I have said multiple times that I think these points are worthless and even if they switch to bonus points the tiny value that they have will not justify the cost. I know that you disagree, and I honestly respect your opinion. Now I was asking jm77 what his thoughts are as far as recommending bonus points.

Mark
 
You honestly think these point schemes are never going to change for new applicants just starting out?

Go look at NV, MT, WY, NM, CO, UT...all have changed, multiple times.

Like I said, its better to have points when changes happen than wishing you did.
I think I misinterpreted your point, but still banking on points to add value with change seams a little far fetched, and would be something I can’t remember in any other circumstances, let me know if you can. I know that changing to bonus points and rising populations are possibilities, but you would have a lot of money in and still a lot of people in front of you by the time either of these came to fruition.

Mark
 
Is it for sure switching to bonus points?

Would you recommend that somebody just starting out buy points for sheep? I know I have asked this question to several others so thought I would ask you as well.

I am honestly not trying to get a rise out of anyone just some friendly chit chat/debate.

Mark
Recommend is not really the word I would use. Would I do it if it was 20 and just getting into sheep hunting and I would. For me it would be a "why not" situation. I never have felt that points of any kind were a guarantee I was going to draw but rather they increased the likelihood. Over the last 20+ years of gathering points that level of likelihood has decreased but they are still better than not having them. I really view points as I am making a bet. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you don't. I also feel points are relatively cheap in the grand scheme of stupid sh!t I spend my money on. If $150 is going to make a difference in your life then you should never have been buying points in the first place. Whether you started 20 years ago or today.
 
I am also surprised by how many hunters seem shocked that a state would look to change the way they administer tag allocations via PP or BP or %. To me a person would have had to be willfully ignorant for the last 20 years. To see demand, hunter populations, game populations, etc. change around the west and expect that tag allocation systems that were designed 20+ years ago would remain the same in spite of these changes is just foolish. So many states find themselves in an untenable situation. Its about time changes were made. I hope more are on the way.
 

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