Southern RAC for the 2022 season

I'm not buying that a healthy deer herd is 8 to 12 bucks per 100 does and all the breeding is done by 1 1/2 year olds. Not buying it a bit. So you can keep shooting all the bucks and we will see where you will be in 10 years.

Rich
Hey Rich,

When was the last time you hunted deer in Utah and which unit did you hunt? Only asking because I’m curious if you have first hand knowledge.
 
Haven't hunted UT for deer in quite a while. But I make more phone calls and talk to many who have every year. Is this going to be like the Wyoming guys where you can only have an opinion on your state in you live there? The guys I am talking to know their state very well and the reports I get are not very good at all. But hey, I am from Oregon so I must not know **** about mule deer hunting.

Rich
 
I'm not buying that a healthy deer herd is 8 to 12 bucks per 100 does and all the breeding is done by 1 1/2 year olds. Not buying it a bit. So you can keep shooting all the bucks and we will see where you will be in 10 years.

Rich
I haven't seen anyone say that 8-12 bucks is a healthy deer herd, or that 1.5 year olds should be doing all the breeding. But the fact is, the does we do have are getting knocked up so we obviously do not have a problem in that department, at least all the studies I have seen have showed that.

Nobody has said we have a healthy deer herd, quite the opposite has been stated by just about everyone, the rub is do we believe cutting buck tags will do anything to help the herd? It will help the age class, which could have a minimal effect on when the doe's get bread and that could help. But at what cost? It's already being projected that several general any weapon hunts will hit the 8-10 preference points to draw in the not too distant future. Currently sitting at 3-4 pp in Bessie's famed south slope units. Is a tag every 5-15 years what you guys are going for? Cause that is where we are already headed.

If cutting buck tags which has been done over and over again showed any increase in total herd population other then the bucks that wasn't killed due to the tag cuts I would be right there with you all. But that isn't going to do Jack to grow the herd. We need to figure out what will, cutting tags has been done, we have limited Entry units that are in as bad a shape as they have ever been in, that have had severely limited tag quotas for 20+ years yet the total herd numbers keep on slipping. Why is that? It's not hunters I can guaran-damn-tee you that.

I felt like the herds in my area we're definitely on the rebound as little as 4-5 years ago, and I was seeing more deer and more bucks then I had in a long time. Then we had a really bad winter, followed up by years of super dry conditions that I feel has wrecked havoc on our fawn populations each year.

I used to be firmly in the "they are selling way to many tags" camp, but my position has shifted some, I still think that is one way to improve quality, but as far as sheer numbers go I don't think it's going to help.... and sheer numbers is the problem right now. Get the numbers up, and I feel quality will increase as well.

Personally I don't want to sit on the sidelines for a decade waiting to hunt, and so far I've found ways to stay in the game. But it's getting close to the point where that's not going to happen.

I'm not fully an opportunity guy, I'm somewhere in the middle.
 
The Deer Herd Here On the West End & Central of South Slope is in POOR Enough Shape it's Pitiful!

And JakeH!

A Younger Buck Doing the Breeding wouldn't Be Such a Bad Thing If The Buck Had any Genetics To Him!

But When Them Little Bastards Don't Live For More Than a Year Or Two For Decades with Their Dads Being a Dink,Their Dad's Dad Being a Dink,Their Dads,Dads,Dads Being a Dink & This BS Going on For Decades & They're Breeding Their Mothers Because They are Still with their Mothers is PERTY GAWD-DAMNED Pitiful!

We Do Our Own Deer Counts Every Year!

Same F'N Place!

Same F'N Day of the Year!

By The Time 1980 Hit I Thought Mule Deer Hunting Had Took such a Hit I Thought it was a JOKE!

How I'd Like To Go Back to 1980 Even Though it was nothing Like The Good Days But It Sure as #### Beat What We've Got Now!

Just Keep the Past & Current Tactics Up,It'll Damn Sure Get Worse!
 
Haven't hunted UT for deer in quite a while. But I make more phone calls and talk to many who have every year. Is this going to be like the Wyoming guys where you can only have an opinion on your state in you live there? The guys I am talking to know their state very well and the reports I get are not very good at all. But hey, I am from Oregon so I must not know **** about mule deer hunting.

Rich
Not at all. I value your opinion, was just curious of it’s origin. I’m all for good sound management of our deer herds. I have no firsthand recent knowledge of the Dutton or the Beaver, but it sounds like they are in bad shape. That said, in the several units I am very familiar with, the deer numbers are declining but mature bucks are still not scarce. I’m a recreational hunter. I never scout, never hunt opening day and don’t take it all that serious. I’ve killed 3 180+ deer in the last 5 years on public ground in easy to draw general units. To see 10-15 mature bucks in 3-5 days of hunting is average. I know of many large deer deer shot by friends and family this last year alone in general units. That is why I don’t endorse some of the doom and gloom that others are feeling.
 
Fun how on one hand, you question the DWR calculations, then on the other, try to use it.

Again, can't have it both ways.

All I can do is site fact. We lost, 135,000 hunters, according to your numbers, 2/3 plus of registered hunters, and since that day, there was no increase in deer numbers. In fact, as we sit today, we are at 90's levels.

If slashing hunter numbers by 2/3 showed an explosion in deer numbers, then it would be hard to argue.

The very simple reality is the "golden age" was an outlier. Trying to pretend it being the standard, is silly.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, and expecting different results.

We slashed hunters. List the revenue. Lost the voters. List the heritage.

And got nothing.

That's just
Miley and lumpy have a fantasy that Utah once houses MILLIONS of deer.

Based not on surveys, actual accounts, but on fuzzy math.
No Hose it’s based on actually sitting in meetings with the division plugging in the numbers. I know that reality escapes you. It’s why guys like you are a waste of time. If 1.2 million is not correct then neither is 300,000 and it could be the reason we are really over issuing tags. Also no need to sensationalize by saying MILLIONS. Neither of us have ever said MILLIONS…that’s your spin to try and sell your story that is a current modern spin with no backing or history. It’s a common tactic used by social media mouths and even many mainstream media outlets.

Like I stated from the state, waste of time with guys like you pushing an agenda that gives the Division and easy way out. Dec always gets me posting as the hints wind down. Luckily a couple more hunts planned through Jan that will occupy my time. Then off to Expo season…yes the Expo is still going strong without your attendance and all the others make a stand! ;)
 
And like I stated many many many times before. I believe there are other solutions without cutting tags. Thus the reason I jumped in on the intial post about muzzys. Then supported a comment that some units need to be shut down for a bit to really focus and look for a solution on those units. Dutton, Beaver, Fishlake and Thousand Lake being very high on the list. That’s when the same social media mouths come clambering out and scream. It literally stops any train or movement to help our deer herds. It’s pathetic and irresponsible.
 
The Deer Herd Here On the West End & Central of South Slope is in POOR Enough Shape it's Pitiful!

And JakeH!

A Younger Buck Doing the Breeding wouldn't Be Such a Bad Thing If The Buck Had any Genetics To Him!

But When Them Little Bastards Don't Live For More Than a Year Or Two For Decades with Their Dads Being a Dink,Their Dad's Dad Being a Dink,Their Dads,Dads,Dads Being a Dink & This BS Going on For Decades & They're Breeding Their Mothers Because They are Still with their Mothers is PERTY GAWD-DAMNED Pitiful!

We Do Our Own Deer Counts Every Year!

Same F'N Place!

Same F'N Day of the Year!

By The Time 1980 Hit I Thought Mule Deer Hunting Had Took such a Hit I Thought it was a JOKE!

How I'd Like To Go Back to 1980 Even Though it was nothing Like The Good Days But It Sure as #### Beat What We've Got Now!

Just Keep the Past & Current Tactics Up,It'll Damn Sure Get Worse!

Bess, yes genetics are what they are. If they aren't there now they just aren't there no matter how old they are. I find mature bucks every year, some don't show up till November but I've seen some big bucks the last few years. I'm not buying into the yearling are Breeding all the does argument at least not in my areas. I can't speak for every unit in the state.

I wish I was alive to see the glory days of the 50's to the 70's. But I don't think we will ever see that again. It was a perfect storm created by management practices that will never come about again. And I'm not talking about game management I'm talking range and predator management.
 
They've Had 50 Years To Make It Better JakeH!

And The Few Things That Happened That Did Help Were Always Destroyed In Damn Sure Quick Order!

Funny How Nobody Can See even in to Next Year!

A Bunch on Here Hoping It Will Be Fixed By Next Season!

GEEZUS!

Bess, yes genetics are what they are. If they aren't there now they just aren't there no matter how old they are. I find mature bucks every year, some don't show up till November but I've seen some big bucks the last few years. I'm not buying into the yearling are Breeding all the does argument at least not in my areas. I can't speak for every unit in the state.

I wish I was alive to see the glory days of the 50's to the 70's. But I don't think we will ever see that again. It was a perfect storm created by management practices that will never come about again. And I'm not talking about game management I'm talking range and predator management.
 
Here's one of the Things they Tried several years ago that was Working a little Bit Until The Greed Set in:

Some of you may not even know or remember this one:

PHU's!(Mighta been Pre-Mature CWMU's in the making?)

They closed some small areas down,was suppose to be closed for 5 years/5 year plan for resurrection of the Mule Deer/Bucks with a little Age!

By year 4 the Bucks were getting there,We seen several 24"-26" Bucks with a few 28" Bucks!

People started SCREAMING to KILL them Bucks on year 4(One year earlier than the Plan to Open back up,they(People!) couldn't stand it!)

So they opened it up a year early!

Between people Poaching/Shooting/Wounding them the Night before Season and a Complete Slaughter opening morning,they were decimated by opening night,completely Gone,ZERO Left,4 Years totally Shot in the Ass!

Just telling you I did see the DWR do something good!

What took 4 years to Accomplish was completely Knocked the FRICK out within Hours due to GREED!

DWR shoulda manned up & told the People,there's gonna be limited Permits,It will stay as a 5 year plan,We will Manage like it's suppose to be managed & You're not going to kill all the GAWD-DAMNED Bucks within the first 24 Hours that took 4 years to achieve!

But that didn't happen!

They Slaughtered Every Buck!
 
Instead they tried to say there was more deer in the hills than ever before. Now they are eating those words but not much hope that they will try anything or admit anything
 
It always happens, when the Utah deer threads come out and folks are saying the deer are in trouble, folks come on here and say they can find mature bucks every year or post videos of all the bucks they find. It's like clockwork. You can kill a mature buck and still have the deer herds in the toilet. It's clear from reading these posts for years that most agree things aren't good, but no one is going to give up hunting every year. Utah is on the Oregon fast track. Opportunity hunting for mule deer will not work as a management tool in this day and age. Too many outside factors, drought, predators, too many hunters, winter range, juniper trees sucking all the water out of the ground. Just wait 10 more years boys, you will be lucky to see any deer, but that can't happen in the Serengeti of the west.

Rich
 
It always happens, when the Utah deer threads come out and folks are saying the deer are in trouble, folks come on here and say they can find mature bucks every year or post videos of all the bucks they find. It's like clockwork. You can kill a mature buck and still have the deer herds in the toilet. It's clear from reading these posts for years that most agree things aren't good, but no one is going to give up hunting every year. Utah is on the Oregon fast track. Opportunity hunting for mule deer will not work as a management tool in this day and age. Too many outside factors, drought, predators, too many hunters, winter range, juniper trees sucking all the water out of the ground. Just wait 10 more years boys, you will be lucky to see any deer, but that can't happen in the Serengeti of the west.

Rich
I'm by no means claiming the deer is in good shape, but fail to see how killing bucks is the issue.

There are at least 3 different treads going around on this subject, but even in the Henry probably the most hunter restricted unit in the state the overall population is on the decline. Hunting is not the primary problem the deer are facing.

There are very few deer hunts in the state that can 100% be drawn every year probably not any rifle. Most rifle hunts are minimum 2-4 years at this point. And trending out longer every year. Sounds like a whole lot of opportunities to me.
 
It is killing every buck that is left. I don’t buy that all the doe are getting bred. I watched 5 different groups of doe for five weeks from mid November to mid December. Each time I went up it was the same story, not a buck in the group. They must come in later than December 15th or in the middle of the night, or wait until I leave from watching them and they hurry and sneak in and do there job and get out. The total of these 5 groups was about 35 doe. By the way this area years ago held 100s of deer and each group always had a mature buck in it. Common denominator is no bucks to get to all the doe. And after years of that along with added depredation and land owner tags and you wonder why there are no doe. Buck hunts and elk hunts from Aug 1st to well into January with hunters chasing animals constantly and then you wonder why they are skinny and do not have fawns or not strong enough to get through the winter. Add on top of that hard winters and summer drought plus being chased for 6 months of the year. Not hard for me to figure why there are no damn deer, buck or doe. Oregon we have already fast tracked to what you have said. We are at that point but going to continue down that road as long as hunters will buy the permits and Dwr willing to sell them.
 
It is killing every buck that is left. I don’t buy that all the doe are getting bred. I watched 5 different groups of doe for five weeks from mid November to mid December. Each time I went up it was the same story, not a buck in the group. They must come in later than December 15th or in the middle of the night, or wait until I leave from watching them and they hurry and sneak in and do there job and get out. The total of these 5 groups was about 35 doe. By the way this area years ago held 100s of deer and each group always had a mature buck in it. Common denominator is no bucks to get to all the doe. And after years of that along with added depredation and land owner tags and you wonder why there are no doe. Buck hunts and elk hunts from Aug 1st to well into January with hunters chasing animals constantly and then you wonder why they are skinny and do not have fawns or not strong enough to get through the winter. Add on top of that hard winters and summer drought plus being chased for 6 months of the year. Not hard for me to figure why there are no damn deer, buck or doe. Oregon we have already fast tracked to what you have said. We are at that point but going to continue down that road as long as hunters will buy the permits and Dwr willing to sell them.
None of the areas I frequent are that bad, I cant speak to the southern units. But up here it is not even close to that bad and I see guys saying the same stuff about up here. Herds are defiantly down, but I have no doubt that the doe's are being bred and we have enough bucks to do that job.
 
Going back to 1x scopes on Muzzleloaders is a stupid idea. It's not going to do anything to help the deer and elk population in Utah or fix point creep. The DWR cannot in good faith limit Muzzleloader technology while allowing Rifle and archery technology to go unchecked.
I know of several animals that have been killed by archers out past 100 yards. Rifle hunters can shoot out past a grand and no one cares.
If the DWR wants to make a statement on technology, they would not allow archers to use hand held releases and limit rifle hunters to 4x scopes.
Thing about this is the DWR is not proposing the restriction. It was proposed by a rac member and agreed by many of the public. There was also talk about some sort of limit on rifles but would need to be hashed out in another discussion.
 
Thing about this is the DWR is not proposing the restriction. It was proposed by a rac member and agreed by many of the public. There was also talk about some sort of limit on rifles but would need to be hashed out in another discussion.
Of course the Division did not suggest it. Anything that actually might help our deer herds usually has to literally be force fed by the public. I don't want to hear about listening to the biologist either. If you are a biologist that disagrees or presents numbers or solutions outside of the bosses guide lines your are moved or removed. Many examples of this happening over the past decades. Good biologist ignored, pushed to change numbers or just plain had numbers changed. If a meaningful change is to going to happen it will be public driven. If there are is an ounce of public support to do nothing the DWR will hang on to that like they are championing the greatest cause since WWII.
 
And as Long as it Will Take To Get One Little Change Made the Deer Herd Will Continue To Plunge!

The Changes Needed That Would Help Would Have Most PISSCUTTER Killers BAWLING Like Babies!

So Keep Right On Pounding Them!

It's About a Done Deal!

And Without Change It'll Basically Close itself!

OH BUT GOOD GAWD ALMIGHTY THE OPPORTUNITY!
 
Thing about this is the DWR is not proposing the restriction. It was proposed by a rac member and agreed by many of the public. There was also talk about some sort of limit on rifles but would need to be hashed out in another discussion.
It wasn’t agreed on by many of the public. It was agreed on by a very select few inside the room while it was being proposed. The public, was surveyed and the results of that was they didn’t wan any more restrictions.

Don’t get the 2 confused. The good ol boys circle session combined with the peta bunny humpers on the RAC want restrictions. The public doesn’t.
 
OH BUT GOOD GAWD ALMIGHTY THE OPPORTUNITY!
About 5 years ago the division surveyed the public on what direction they wanted to see utah wildlife management practices to go. The majority voted for opportunity over quality. That’s what we are getting. You are far out numbered still on that vote. Guys would rather hunt and see empty hillsides than sit home for 10 years and maybe see a half decent buck. People want to go hunting. That won’t change. They will still ***** when they don’t see anything, but they would ***** even more if they didn’t get a tag in 10+ years.
 
About 5 years ago the division surveyed the public on what direction they wanted to see utah wildlife management practices to go. The majority voted for opportunity over quality. That’s what we are getting. You are far out numbered still on that vote. Guys would rather hunt and see empty hillsides than sit home for 10 years and maybe see a half decent buck. People want to go hunting. That won’t change. They will still ***** when they don’t see anything, but they would ***** even more if they didn’t get a tag in 10+ years.
True conservationist at the core! The same conservationists that generally only pay attention to the deer herd on the opening weekend and when mention of tag cuts pop up. Uneducated voters used for the government's benefit....strange!
 
Im all for going back to more primitive. The person who made the motion brought up good points. I’d even like to see rifle hunts go to single power or open sights on some units and see if success decreases. Making people less successful is the only realistic way to help with point creep.
Increasing populations is the only way to help point creep.
Limiting success is just a smoke screen the department uses to hide poor management.
 
True conservationist at the core! The same conservationists that generally only pay attention to the deer herd on the opening weekend and when mention of tag cuts pop up. Uneducated voters used for the government's benefit....strange!
Tell me what I said is wrong. Then back it up with the WB meeting where they discuss it. I’m waiting.

The public voiced their opinion. That’s the route they went with. We made our bed, we are having to lay in it and it’s not what we expected. But, it is what it is. It’s not what it’s not. And it’s going to be what it’s going to be. An opportunity to go hunting. If that doesn’t fit your style of hunting, there are plenty of other states and management areas to look for that are more to your liking.
 
About 5 years ago the division surveyed the public on what direction they wanted to see utah wildlife management practices to go. The majority voted for opportunity over quality. That’s what we are getting. You are far out numbered still on that vote. Guys would rather hunt and see empty hillsides than sit home for 10 years and maybe see a half decent buck. People want to go hunting. That won’t change. They will still ***** when they don’t see anything, but they would ***** even more if they didn’t get a tag in 10+ years.
I bet the Lifetime license holders would like this proposal.
 
Tell me what I said is wrong. Then back it up with the WB meeting where they discuss it. I’m waiting.

The public voiced their opinion. That’s the route they went with. We made our bed, we are having to lay in it and it’s not what we expected. But, it is what it is. It’s not what it’s not. And it’s going to be what it’s going to be. An opportunity to go hunting. If that doesn’t fit your style of hunting, there are plenty of other states and management areas to look for that are more to your liking.
Like I said true conservationist. Rather hunt until the resource is completely gone. I hunt multiple states every single year for multiple species. That doesn't mean I am ok for my home state to shitt away the resource I love or the desire to have an opportunity to go hunt. Again...when the uneducated are allowed to vote the government will use their voice. If that scenario escapes you....well take a look around and its not just the mule deer in trouble these days.
 
Is it really an opportunity to go out and see and shoot a two point running around with mama? Sad when that is the opportunity that these people fight so hard for.
 
Like I said true conservationist. Rather hunt until the resource is completely gone. I hunt multiple states every single year for multiple species. That doesn't mean I am ok for my home state to shitt away the resource I love or the desire to have an opportunity to go hunt. Again...when the uneducated are allowed to vote the government will use their voice. If that scenario escapes you....well take a look around and its not just the mule deer in trouble these days.
What makes you the true conservationist.
Just because I and some others on this site see it different than you means we are not conservationists.
It is some audacity to think only your opinion matters.
Thear has been some good points made from bolth sides of the argument but I still ask.
How do we decide how many permits do we cut?
And how many permits cut will make you happy?
I don't want to hear let the biologists decide because Supposedly the biologists have been making their recmondations in the past and you are not happy with that.
 
Only pointing out the facts that have held true for 40 plus years on the management of Utah’s deer herd. I didn’t say I was more of a conservationist than anyone else. What I stated is that there are some that put opportunity above the over all health of the deer herd. That does not fall into my own personal definition of a conservationist. Thus I stated how I viewed the situation. Obviously a sensitive nerve to point out a fact. The herd has not recovered from tough winters, droughts, predators, highways, freeways, habitat loss and on and on and on....we have arguably 25-30% of the deer we once had in Utah and when any suggestion comes up to relive the one controllable factor on them it’s the hunters that scream the most. They care about hunting more than the resource, that is not true conservation. You ask the number...I said zero on some units until proper management can be achieved. I was perfectly clear with that and even listed several units. You chose to not even read that. Audacity...lol....Shiit I stopped worrying about offending people long ago so I gues I hope my words and stance do offend some ...they were meant to! :)
 
No Hose it’s based on actually sitting in meetings with the division plugging in the numbers. I know that reality escapes you. It’s why guys like you are a waste of time. If 1.2 million is not correct then neither is 300,000 and it could be the reason we are really over issuing tags. Also no need to sensationalize by saying MILLIONS. Neither of us have ever said MILLIONS…that’s your spin to try and sell your story that is a current modern spin with no backing or history. It’s a common tactic used by social media mouths and even many mainstream media outlets.

Like I stated from the state, waste of time with guys like you pushing an agenda that gives the Division and easy way out. Dec always gets me posting as the hints wind down. Luckily a couple more hunts planned through Jan that will occupy my time. Then off to Expo season…yes the Expo is still going strong without your attendance and all the others make a stand! ;)


If YOU BELIEVE UTAH LOST 1.2 MILLION DEER, then YOU ALSO HAVE TO BELIEVE Utah had at least 1.2 MILLION DEER.

I know math is racist, but it's still math. So YES, when you drop your number, it shows, that you believed there were millions of deer, unless your contention is that there are zero deer left alive today, in which case you believe Utah once housed 1.2 million(technically not million(s))

When did Utah ACTUALLY start counting deer, in a realistic manner? 80's? Sure wasn't the 50's or 60's, during the golden age. Meaning NO ONE KNOWS what there was. Meaning all your "sitting down plugging in numbers", was EXACTLY what I said it was, fairy dust and wishes. Wild azz guessing, ain't science. Pretending that an era were 1080, and relentless pursuit of fanged animals is ever going to happen again is fiction. Pretending that shitting down a unit a couple years will fix the loss of sagebrush, drought, highways, beetle kill, deadfall covered mtns, is just willfully blind. Shutting down the Fish lake WILL NOT GROW ONE MORE DOE. Not a SINGLE ONE. Proving, YET AGAIN, your "shut it down" diatribes are NOT about growing DEER HERDS, they are about bigger bucks.

BUCKS DO NOT CREATE DEER. Big bucks don't create deer.

A buck, 30" or 6", is simply a sperm transfer participant. 2seconds after that transfer happens, the buck is no longer biologically necessary, and in fact becomes a detriment, and a competitor for nutrients.

I live a couple miles from AI.

If shutting down deer hunting, created an explosion in a deer population, AI would have tens of thousands of deer. It doesn't. AND IT HAS THE HIGHEST CONCENTRATION OF MATURE BUCKS per square yard in UTAH.

AI 100% destroys your "shut it all down to improve the herd theory". Shutting it down created big bucks, THATS ALL IT DID.

Enjoy the expo. It's perfect for guys like you. $fw has been "saving the mule deer" since the early 90's. Your perfect for each other
 
What makes you the true conservationist.
Just because I and some others on this site see it different than you means we are not conservationists.
It is some audacity to think only your opinion matters.
Thear has been some good points made from bolth sides of the argument but I still ask.
How do we decide how many permits do we cut?
And how many permits cut will make you happy?
I don't want to hear let the biologists decide because Supposedly the biologists have been making their recmondations in the past and you are not happy with that.


Youll NEVER get that answer. Muley doesn't ACTUALLY talk facts, data, numbers.

He is what he is. The smartest guy in the room, so as such, it's beneath him to get in the weeds. Just know, his answer is "shut it all down". He will then follow that up explaining how he is headed to Colorado to hunt deer(because Colorado mule deer aren't susceptible to any of the issues Utah mule deer are?).

He'll tell you what a consevationist he is, while apparently now hunting in the winter.

Just you be content knowing, that HE is the greatest mind in wildlife conservation in Utah. Don't you worry about math, data, facts, biology, etc.

Just shut it all down(except for those tags he and his family have yearly, they are different)

Now run along, he's gotta support $fw, or not, or kinda, or definitely, or.......(God only knows because in all these years, no one has figured out his stance on them either, it changes per post).

Here's the truth. Get him to tell you how many deer were in Utah at their peak(hard to do because it's been laughed at so much, he's become sensitive), then you can figure out all you need to know after that.
 
Hoss ,
Do you actually know how the Division gets the current deer count? You can use the same exact formula now. With numbers...yes numbers that the Division track ball then and plug them in. Not my numbers or formula...The Divisions...so are they right???
 
I’ve been waiting for someone to post “the formula”.

Does it account for trends, or is it always hindsight?
 
You know muley, you make some really good points and I can see you’re no fool but let me throw you some free advice. If you didn’t use every post as an arguing point, you’d get a lot more support.
 
Blue,
If you spend some time with the Division they can explain it. You can then research their numbers and plug them in.

Shadow,
I've argue every single angle for years. Attended meetings since I was 5 years old. Napkin meetings, backroom meetings, public meetings, off the record drive around looking at deer with biologist and Division meetings, angry meetings, planning meetings, conservation group meetings. I don't post on here expecting solutions or support. I just post to post, same at those that I argue with. I don't claim to have all the solutions or answers I just have my opinion based on my person experience and knowledge.
 
Youll NEVER get that answer. Muley doesn't ACTUALLY talk facts, data, numbers.

He is what he is. The smartest guy in the room, so as such, it's beneath him to get in the weeds. Just know, his answer is "shut it all down". He will then follow that up explaining how he is headed to Colorado to hunt deer(because Colorado mule deer aren't susceptible to any of the issues Utah mule deer are?).

He'll tell you what a consevationist he is, while apparently now hunting in the winter.

Just you be content knowing, that HE is the greatest mind in wildlife conservation in Utah. Don't you worry about math, data, facts, biology, etc.

Just shut it all down(except for those tags he and his family have yearly, they are different)

Now run along, he's gotta support $fw, or not, or kinda, or definitely, or.......(God only knows because in all these years, no one has figured out his stance on them either, it changes per post).

Here's the truth. Get him to tell you how many deer were in Utah at their peak(hard to do because it's been laughed at so much, he's become sensitive), then you can figure out all you need to know after that.
Hoss,
I'll not be hunting any animals in a "winter" impact area. I'm not positive but I believe they have always hunted Ibex Nov - Jan in NM. Low tag numbers also keeps the hunter impact on the herd low.
Same with Mexico, Coues hunts usually take place during Jan. Its because they are further south so the seasons don't line up the same as say Utah or WY. Being further south puts you closer to the equator, that shifts the season and weather a bit. The deer in Mexico shed their horns later in the calendar year, they don't shed the velvet at the same time as Utah deer, they don't rut and don't fawn at the same time as Utah deer. I wouldn't consider it a "winter" hunt. But maybe that's just my opinion. ;)
 
Hoss ,
Do you actually know how the Division gets the current deer count? You can use the same exact formula now. With numbers...yes numbers that the Division track ball then and plug them in. Not my numbers or formula...The Divisions...so are they right???


Do you know if you plug in BS numbers into any science modeling, you get BS outcomes.

There you go again.

You argue the division is wrong, then "use the same exact formula" to give you numbers you like to quote.

I agree, their model is bad. Which is why I know YOUR numbers are bad.

It's comical. Watching you continually spin in a circle.

THEY DIDNT COUNT MULE DEER IN TGE GOLDEN AGE. They DIDNT MANAGE for mule deer either.

They MANAGED FOR SHEEP. That's why they went after coyotes. Mule deer werent even considered.

So just starting at that fact, it disproves your theory.

But go ahead. For the new guys. Tell them how many deer you believe their were, tell them YOUR NUMBER.
 
Hoss,
I'll not be hunting any animals in a "winter" impact area. I'm not positive but I believe they have always hunted Ibex Nov - Jan in NM. Low tag numbers also keeps the hunter impact on the herd low.
Same with Mexico, Coues hunts usually take place during Jan. Its because they are further south so the seasons don't line up the same as say Utah or WY. Being further south puts you closer to the equator, that shifts the season and weather a bit. The deer in Mexico shed their horns later in the calendar year, they don't shed the velvet at the same time as Utah deer, they don't rut and don't fawn at the same time as Utah deer. I wouldn't consider it a "winter" hunt. But maybe that's just my opinion. ;)


Nothing screams consevationist like supporting exotic hunting?
 
You know muley, you make some really good points and I can see you’re no fool but let me throw you some free advice. If you didn’t use every post as an arguing point, you’d get a lot more support.


Ask him for his number.

Then decide for yourself how good his points are
 
Blue,
If you spend some time with the Division they can explain it. You can then research their numbers and plug them in.

Shadow,
I've argue every single angle for years. Attended meetings since I was 5 years old. Napkin meetings, backroom meetings, public meetings, off the record drive around looking at deer with biologist and Division meetings, angry meetings, planning meetings, conservation group meetings. I don't post on here expecting solutions or support. I just post to post, same at those that I argue with. I don't claim to have all the solutions or answers I just have my opinion based on my person experience and knowledge.
Yeah, I figured I could get it there. So for now it stays a secret, and an endless source of entertainment on MM.
 
Yeah, I figured I could get it there. So for now it stays a secret, and an endless source of entertainment on MM.

Right next to the who shot jfk files, and the alien from New Mexico

Guys like you and I when we had those "backroom, napkin meetings", called it sitting in the coffee shop bullshitting. Other dudes call it mule deer conservation.

Or riding the dirt roads drinking beer, is for some dudes, hard core science.

Which makes me the Einstein of mule deer science.


No worries though Blue. Muley plan is shutting down Utah, but he'll be in your state yearly?
 
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Blue,
Myself and Lumpy have broke it down multiple times in the past. I don't care to do it again. Doesn't matter to anyone on this forum. Doesn't matter to most that hunt these days. Its easier to pretend the herd isn't hurting as bad as it actually is so they can justify no change, not matter what the change is.

Hoss,
Clever on the conservation comment. I'm also guilty of fishing for Brown Trout, tiger trout, Kokanee, Splake, in the spring and summer. Again 800,000...1.2 million...helll 600,000....500,000. We have decimated the herd by somewhere between 80% and 50% and your number 1 concern is hunter opportunity over the health of our resource. I don't agree and I don't respect any of that stance. Many options besides cutting tags and guys like you will whine about all of those too. Both of us are clowns on opposite sides of the argument. I'm totally fine to stand on my ground and you're totally fine to stand on yours and I'm good if you don't like me for it.
 
Blue,
Myself and Lumpy have broke it down multiple times in the past. I don't care to do it again. Doesn't matter to anyone on this forum. Doesn't matter to most that hunt these days. Its easier to pretend the herd isn't hurting as bad as it actually is so they can justify no change, not matter what the change is.

Hoss,
Clever on the conservation comment. I'm also guilty of fishing for Brown Trout, tiger trout, Kokanee, Splake, in the spring and summer. Again 800,000...1.2 million...helll 600,000....500,000. We have decimated the herd by somewhere between 80% and 50% and your number 1 concern is hunter opportunity over the health of our resource. I don't agree and I don't respect any of that stance. Many options besides cutting tags and guys like you will whine about all of those too. Both of us are clowns on opposite sides of the argument. I'm totally fine to stand on my ground and you're totally fine to stand on yours and I'm good if you don't like me for it.


In all your years hanging with the biologists, did any of them explain how wildlife management is funded? Now feel free and explain how it's funded when you shut down hunting. Go on, I'll wait.

You and Lumpy have an actual number. Why not just state it?

We "decimated" the herd of of herd numbers, be they your "millions" or whatever, based on AN ARTIFICALLY CREATED, NON HISTORICAL SUPPORTED NUMBER THAT IS NOT, NOR WAS NOT SUPPORTABLE.

You picked the very tip of a curve, a fraction of history, then try to extrapolate that is the norm, and any deviation from it is obviously destruction.

There weren't millions of mule deer when my fam rolled into Sanpete in the 1840's. Did the Indians kill them all?

No. We poisoned every damn predator to death for a decade or so, and, as ALL SPECIES DO, their was a boom of prey in the absence of predators. Once the predators were back on the landscape the boom ended.

Are we short deer from a historical perfective(not 60-70), but HISTORY? Possibly, but since prior to the 80's, no one ACTUALLY COUNTED, we are relying on modeling

Is that because we shoot bucks? No

Is that because other issues? Yes

Will shutting down the Fish lake fix that? No

Can we pretend the best year ever for mule deer numbers is the average? NO.
 
I bet the Lifetime license holders would like this proposal.
If The DWR would issue a lifetime deer permit again and charge $10,000, you would find out real quick how many people prioritize deer hunting.
I bet there are a lot of talkers that wouldn't pony up the $$$
 
Hoss,
If you understood supply and demand you would not have to worry about funds.

I agree with your point on how many deer historically. However you fail to factor in technology along with all the shiit that has been listed. So back to my point...1 thing that we actually have control of....hunters.
 
So back to my point...1 thing that we actually have control of....hunters.
We’re on the same page here, but I think we could subsidize the casual take of pred’s and make modest progress there also.

And both you guys are right. That’s the problem, eh?
 
Hoss,
If you understood supply and demand you would not have to worry about funds.

I agree with your point on how many deer historically. However you fail to factor in technology along with all the shiit that has been listed. So back to my point...1 thing that we actually have control of....hunters.


Well, like you, I talk to biologists. Their number 1,2,3,4 concerns are LACK OF FUNDING. The best biologists don't work for the DWR, they make more elsewhere. Projects cost money. Equipment costs money.

So, because they lost over 100,000 hunters, and because dudes squeal, tag prices are stagnant, as inflation is 7% this month.

Which creates the hole, that your buddies over at $fw are happy to fill, for a fee of course.

Which brings us to facts.

YOU, Muley, care about mule deer, UNTIL it hits home You don't believe shutdowns work, or YOU AND YOUR FAMILY, would sit home. You don't. You simply virtue signal in Utah, then run to Colorado, FOR HUNTING OPPORTUNITY. But somehow it's "the opportunists, who are the issue. Because as we all know, Utah deer STAY ONLY IN UTAH. Colorado deer don't cross borders. The issue with the decline in Mule deer, throughout the west, IS THOSE DAMN UTAH OPPORTUNISTS.

Beyond my "amusement" at your math, the issue I have with YOU, is you are full of crap.

You chase mule deer hunting EVERY YEAR. Same as me. But somehow YOU convinced yourself youre above it all, because you call for shutdowns to save mule deer in Utah, then haul ass to other states.

THAT MAKES YOU AN OPPORTUNIST. And that's a fact.

3years ago I challenged YOU, and all the other "shutdown" guys to post the pic of the tag you got and paid for, then post the video of you cutting it up, PRIOR TO THE HUNT. In 3, years, there is a grand total of ZERO pics or vids.

Lots of dudes ***** afterwards. Lots of dudes claiming the "ain't killed a deer on my tag in years",. No dudes funding the DWR, then sitting home. Yourself included
 
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Hoss,
If you understood supply and demand you would not have to worry about funds.

I agree with your point on how many deer historically. However you fail to factor in technology along with all the shiit that has been listed. So back to my point...1 thing that we actually have control of....hunters.
Muley, I am far from a opportunity hunter, I've argued alot of the same points you have many times.

But please tell me how cutting buck tags will increase the population as a whole?

Cutting tags will definitely improve quality, would do little to nothing to build the herds.
 
Well, like you, I talk to biologists. Their number 1,2,3,4 concerns are LACK OF FUNDING. The best biologists don't work for the DWR, they make more elsewhere. Projects cost money. Equipment costs money.

So, because they lost over 100,000 hunters, and because dudes squeal, tag prices are stagnant, as inflation is 7% this month.

Which creates the hole, that your buddies over at $fw are happy to fill, for a fee of course.

Which brings us to facts.

YOU, Muley, care about mule deer, UNTIL it hits home You don't believe shutdowns work, or YOU AND YOUR FAMILY, would sit home. You don't. You simply virtue signal in Utah, then run to Colorado, FOR HUNTING OPPORTUNITY. But somehow it's "the opportunists, who are the issue. Because as we all know, Utah deer STAY ONLY IN UTAH. Colorado deer don't cross borders. The issue with the decline in Mule deer, throughout the west, IS THOSE DAMN UTAH OPPORTUNISTS.

Beyond my "amusement" at your math, the issue I have with YOU, is you are full of crap.

You chase mule deer hunting EVERY YEAR. Same as me. But somehow YOU convinced yourself youre above it all, because you call for shutdowns to save mule deer in Utah, then haul ass to other states.

THAT MAKES YOU AN OPPORTUNIST. And that's a fact.

3years ago I challenged YOU, and all the other "shutdown" guys to post the pic of the tag you got and paid for, then post the video of you cutting it up, PRIOR TO THE HUNT. In 3, years, there is a grand total of ZERO pics or vids.

Lots of dudes ***** afterwards. Lots of dudes claiming the "ain't killed a deer on my tag in years",. No dudes funding the DWR, then sitting home. Yourself included
Hoss,
I haven't had a Utah tag for many years outside of 2 LE tags in 2018 and 2019. Thus the fact that I have believe 10 general season points currently. Last CO tag I personally had was...2009 or 2010 I believe, WY is been longer than that...ah ID I did have my own tag in 2015. I only hunt Coues deer in AZ and NM. Another one of your baseless wrong comments. You comment and react like you think that I care about your opinion...my friend I promise I could not care less if I was paid to. It is worth posting to see you literally have a melt down...its almost not as fun with how predictable your tantrums are however. But like I said winter boredom.
 
Muley, I am far from a opportunity hunter, I've argued alot of the same points you have many times.

But please tell me how cutting buck tags will increase the population as a whole?

Cutting tags will definitely improve quality, would do little to nothing to build the herds.
Jake,
I explained earlier that it is not just less bucks being shot its reduced pressure. I posted in this thread my thoughts on that based on time spent with a very knowledgable Mule Deer biologist. AND AS I STATED BEFORE....I believe there are many many many options besides cutting tags to address the issue.

Tell me this...simple math. If there are more bucks left after the hunt is the overall number less or more? If we are strictly talking herd numbers would more bucks mean more deer overall? If a herd was left to nature would there be more bucks in the herd than if hunters are harvesting the bucks? Is it possible that knocking out a large percentage of the bucks knocks the herd out of its natural balance? Just a question, but humans are having in impact on the deer herds and hunters are part of the impact.
 
Right next to the who shot jfk files, and the alien from New Mexico

Guys like you and I when we had those "backroom, napkin meetings", called it sitting in the coffee shop bullshitting. Other dudes call it mule deer conservation.

Or riding the dirt roads drinking beer, is for some dudes, hard core science.

Which makes me the Einstein of mule deer science.


No worries though Blue. Muley plan is shutting down Utah, but he'll be in your state yearly?
Hoss,
No beer drinking, just counting deer with biologist. Yes bulllshitting with about mule deer conservation...with the Director.

Chief you are an Einstein in your own mind I have no doubt. Keep believing it, its entertainin. ;)
 
It makes a lot of sense to manage by”herd”, as it accounts for migrations and winter range and such.
Blue,
Do some research on the units in Utah. Not all are perfect but I believe there is old data identifying 60 individual units based on herds in this areas. There is a ton of detail in it. Not being smartasss just pointing out that there is data out there surrounding the herds and unit breakdown form way back...which I will admit may have changed with human expansion.
 
Hoss,
I haven't had a Utah tag for many years outside of 2 LE tags in 2018 and 2019. Thus the fact that I have believe 10 general season points currently. Last CO tag I personally had was...2009 or 2010 I believe, WY is been longer than that...ah ID I did have my own tag in 2015. I only hunt Coues deer in AZ and NM. Another one of your baseless wrong comments. You comment and react like you think that I care about your opinion...my friend I promise I could not care less if I was paid to. It is worth posting to see you literally have a melt down...its almost not as fun with how predictable your tantrums are however. But like I said winter boredom.


There is no melt down. Just the usual, the biggest voices, are ALWAYS for the other guy doing without.

Tell the folks your number
 
Hoss,
No beer drinking, just counting deer with biologist. Yes bulllshitting with about mule deer conservation...with the Director.

Chief you are an Einstein in your own mind I have no doubt. Keep believing it, its entertainin. ;)


Whats your number. Educate the masses. I mean you did have the Directors company, and we obviously followed your plan, so it must have been ground breaking?
 
Whats your number. Educate the masses. I mean you did have the Directors company, and we obviously followed your plan, so it must have been ground breaking?
Hoss,
The Directors quote... “At some point Utah hunters will have to pick one brown animal a year”. So you take that anyway you’d like Chief.
 
Hoss,
The Directors quote... “At some point Utah hunters will have to pick one brown animal a year”. So you take that anyway you’d like Chief.
[/QUOTE

Where are you, 30 posts in, and still ain't dropped that number? Why are you embarrassed of it? Seems like the easiest way to show is all how foolish we are for ever doubting you.

Come on, what's the number??????
 
There is no melt down. Just the usual, the biggest voices, are ALWAYS for the other guy doing without.

Tell the folks your number
Hoss,
Was my English not clear enough? I said ZERO on some units until they can stabilize and come up with some fixes on certain units. Zero means no hunters on those units. 1 less than 1 ...10 less than 10. I didn’t hesitate from the start.
 
Hoss,
Was my English not clear enough? I said ZERO on some units until they can stabilize and come up with some fixes on certain units. Zero means no hunters on those units. 1 less than 1 ...10 less than 10. I didn’t hesitate from the start.


Nice spin. You know what number I'm talking about

Tell the fellas, the newer guys, how many deer were in Utah according to your calculations.
 
Hoss,
Was my English not clear enough? I said ZERO on some units until they can stabilize and come up with some fixes on certain units. Zero means no hunters on those units. 1 less than 1 ...10 less than 10. I didn’t hesitate from the start.


That will create not a single doe. Meaning not a single fawn.

Showing EXACTLY what I've said for years. You don't care about the herd, you care about inches

Unless, you found that buck that is dropping fawns every year, not killing bucks creates zero does.

Perhaps have the Director explain reproduction to you at the next sit down.
 
Nice spin. You know what number I'm talking about

Tell the fellas, the newer guys, how many deer were in Utah according to your calculations.
Hoss,
Zero spin. That was the answer I gave all along. It just doesn’t fit your narrative. In the end it doesn’t matter what answer or facts or history or any of other thing presented. You want your tag and you don’t give one shiit what that takes. You have no solutions because you don’t want a solution. You want your way or nothing. Have at it Ace , I honestly don’t give much of a shiit what Utah does. In the end I’ll hunt other places and you’ll still be the whiney angry guy in Utah, enjoy!
 
Jake,
I explained earlier that it is not just less bucks being shot its reduced pressure. I posted in this thread my thoughts on that based on time spent with a very knowledgable Mule Deer biologist. AND AS I STATED BEFORE....I believe there are many many many options besides cutting tags to address the issue.

Tell me this...simple math. If there are more bucks left after the hunt is the overall number less or more? If we are strictly talking herd numbers would more bucks mean more deer overall? If a herd was left to nature would there be more bucks in the herd than if hunters are harvesting the bucks? Is it possible that knocking out a large percentage of the bucks knocks the herd out of its natural balance? Just a question, but humans are having in impact on the deer herds and hunters are part of the impact.
As has been stated, bucks don't make more deer. Unless you have completely wiped out the buck population (which even in the land of the nomad south slope units isn't happening, I can't speak for elsewhere) and there are still bucks to breed the doe's then more bucks on the landscape does nothing to build the herd. If you can show me proof that does are not getting bread then you might have a point. Up till now I have never seen a study that indicates that is happening.

Fact of the matter is, even in the LE units with very limited hunting pressure the overall herds are in decline. The Book Cliffs is in as bad a shape as it probably ever has been. There is no human encroachment out there, they have been cutting tags out there like crazy (as they should be) they haven't had doe hunts in the 20+ years I've been on the unit. So what's going on? It damn sure doesn't have anything to do with the amount of hunters. And from the sounds of it the Henry's are in a similar trend just not as severe.

My buddy is a taxidermist, the biggest deer he has gotten into his shop the last 3-4 years have all been general season bucks. In fact all the biggest deer I have seen in our area have all been off the general units.

I'm not advocating handing out more tags, but let's pump the breaks on all this nonsense about shutting units down, or severely cutting tag numbers, it's already a 3-4 year wait for a general rifle deer tag around here, and that number isn't getting smaller anytime soon. How bout we actually focus on things that will help the herds rather then continue down the road of tag cuts that to this point hasn't done a whole lot for the herds as a whole. Shiit the highways have done way more damage to our herds then hunters have, there are ways to improve deer/vehicle collisions, habitat projects, cheat grass spraying, predator management, if you build the herd, you improve quality. Stop management of buck to doe ratios and focus on building the herds.

I'm not as far away from you as you think, but the way you talk would have an anti hunters panties dripping wet. How bout that we hunters doing the job for them on shutting our selves out.

I'm just not as doom and gloom as some of you guys, and believe there are ways to improve but we can't keep banging our heads against the wall and expect different results. Tags have been cut many many times, yeah managing hunters might be the easiest way, but doesn't mean it's the right way.
 
As has been stated, bucks don't make more deer. Unless you have completely wiped out the buck population (which even in the land of the nomad south slope units isn't happening, I can't speak for elsewhere) and there are still bucks to breed the doe's then more bucks on the landscape does nothing to build the herd. If you can show me proof that does are not getting bread then you might have a point. Up till now I have never seen a study that indicates that is happening.

Fact of the matter is, even in the LE units with very limited hunting pressure the overall herds are in decline. The Book Cliffs is in as bad a shape as it probably ever has been. There is no human encroachment out there, they have been cutting tags out there like crazy (as they should be) they haven't had doe hunts in the 20+ years I've been on the unit. So what's going on? It damn sure doesn't have anything to do with the amount of hunters. And from the sounds of it the Henry's are in a similar trend just not as severe.

My buddy is a taxidermist, the biggest deer he has gotten into his shop the last 3-4 years have all been general season bucks. In fact all the biggest deer I have seen in our area have all been off the general units.

I'm not advocating handing out more tags, but let's pump the breaks on all this nonsense about shutting units down, or severely cutting tag numbers, it's already a 3-4 year wait for a general rifle deer tag around here, and that number isn't getting smaller anytime soon. How bout we actually focus on things that will help the herds rather then continue down the road of tag cuts that to this point hasn't done a whole lot for the herds as a whole. Shiit the highways have done way more damage to our herds then hunters have, there are ways to improve deer/vehicle collisions, habitat projects, cheat grass spraying, predator management, if you build the herd, you improve quality. Stop management of buck to doe ratios and focus on building the herds.

I'm not as far away from you as you think, but the way you talk would have an anti hunters panties dripping wet. How bout that we hunters doing the job for them on shutting our selves out.

I'm just not as doom and gloom as some of you guys, and believe there are ways to improve but we can't keep banging our heads against the wall and expect different results. Tags have been cut many many times, yeah managing hunters might be the easiest way, but doesn't mean it's the right way.
Jake,
We have 30 units. Let’s try some different things on units. Even have some units OTC unlimited bucks tags, let’s see how they fare. I agreed from the start there are other options. But to say that some units wouldn’t benefit over all, overall health of the herd. Zero to do with inches is just bullheaded. I’m more than happy to try new things liking limiting muzzy technology or technology across the board. But to act like releaving pressure off of some of these herds is irresponsible. Antis have zero issue in us wiping out the resource, they are doing the same thing with wolves. Knock the herds down so much it’s not responsible to hunt them. Loss of hunter recruitment is the Global Warming cry of the sportsmen that want to hunt. Loss of the resource is what will do us in at the end of the day.
Look at my view, have I gone against any issue in helping our herds?
Range Finders -Cut it
High power scopes- cut it
In line muzzys - cut it
Scoped muzzys- cut it
4 wheelers- cut it
Baiting -Cut it (Virtue Flag but I’ll still support)
More money for habit- Rasie tsg prices
More money for highway fences- Raise tags again
Relocate deer- Raise rag prices and do it
Shorten seasons- do it
Eliminate elk - do it
Kill more predators- do it
Build more guzzlers- do it
More money for DWR counts - Raise rag prices
More money to hire more biologist for each unit- Raise rag prices
I’m literally on board with ANYTHING that will grow our herds back. Yet I also add to the list that some units should shut down until we can get them stabiliazed and I’m pro Anti hunter? I’m the evil guy taking away opportunity? I’m the idiot living in a fantasy pixie dust world? I’ve come from a family that’s poured heart and soul into the Utah deer herds. The attitude of keying in on my stance on shutdowning units when needed can piss off. I don’t care who I offend with that stance because I probably wouldn’t like them personally on many other levels and subjects.
 
Jake,
We have 30 units. Let’s try some different things on units. Even have some units OTC unlimited bucks tags, let’s see how they fare. I agreed from the start there are other options. But to say that some units wouldn’t benefit over all, overall health of the herd. Zero to do with inches is just bullheaded. I’m more than happy to try new things liking limiting muzzy technology or technology across the board. But to act like releaving pressure off of some of these herds is irresponsible. Antis have zero issue in us wiping out the resource, they are doing the same thing with wolves. Knock the herds down so much it’s not responsible to hunt them. Loss of hunter recruitment is the Global Warming cry of the sportsmen that want to hunt. Loss of the resource is what will do us in at the end of the day.
Look at my view, have I gone against any issue in helping our herds?
Range Finders -Cut it
High power scopes- cut it
In line muzzys - cut it
Scoped muzzys- cut it
4 wheelers- cut it
Baiting -Cut it (Virtue Flag but I’ll still support)
More money for habit- Rasie tsg prices
More money for highway fences- Raise tags again
Relocate deer- Raise rag prices and do it
Shorten seasons- do it
Eliminate elk - do it
Kill more predators- do it
Build more guzzlers- do it
More money for DWR counts - Raise rag prices
More money to hire more biologist for each unit- Raise rag prices
I’m literally on board with ANYTHING that will grow our herds back. Yet I also add to the list that some units should shut down until we can get them stabiliazed and I’m pro Anti hunter? I’m the evil guy taking away opportunity? I’m the idiot living in a fantasy pixie dust world? I’ve come from a family that’s poured heart and soul into the Utah deer herds. The attitude of keying in on my stance on shutdowning units when needed can piss off. I don’t care who I offend with that stance because I probably wouldn’t like them personally on many other levels and subjects.
How do you explain the decline on the Henry's deer herd the last 5 years or so? And do you believe it is caused by any human activity what so ever? Not just hunting related but as a whole?
 
Hoss,
Zero spin. That was the answer I gave all along. It just doesn’t fit your narrative. In the end it doesn’t matter what answer or facts or history or any of other thing presented. You want your tag and you don’t give one shiit what that takes. You have no solutions because you don’t want a solution. You want your way or nothing. Have at it Ace , I honestly don’t give much of a shiit what Utah does. In the end I’ll hunt other places and you’ll still be the whiney angry guy in Utah, enjoy!


Fun thing about pushing you a little is that eventually, you will tie yourself in a knot, take multiple sides, and twist.

The reason you won't state "your number" is because the last time you tried to tell folks Utah lost that many deer you were laughed at so hard, that Lumpy quit posting for a year(which is too bad, your dad is a great read). It's the same reason that despite all your meetings and hangouts with the Director, they didn't listen either, and I'm sure when he told his biologists they nearly pissed themselves.

Your answer is "shut it down". Ok, then what? In all the years you e posted that you have never answered that part.

After you shut the fish lake, will fawn mortality magically change? Will all the beetle kill that creates deadzones due to deadfall magically disappear? Will the drought end? Will 1080 come back into practice? Will the old sage reverse it's aging? No. None of that will happen. So not a SINGLE issue affecting herd growth will change from a shutdown. The ONLY thing that will change is the same amount of bucks that would have been born anyway(herd growth is STILL dependent on does) would grow inches.

Further, since dwr revenue comes from license sales, you bankrupt them.

Even further, despite the big mouths who spout your gospel, all those guys you just shut down, apply in other units.

All of which Slamdunk , (since I'm just an idiot) keeps trying to pound into dudes heads, DOES CREATE FAWNS, NOT BUCKS.

If the unit cannot support the deer it has, increasing the larger, more aggressive buck numbers, especially on limited winter range, means they take from DOES.

So, I agree, WE SHOULD SHUT DOWN DOE HUNTING. Other than that, the issues are landscape, and Climate.
 
How do you explain the decline on the Henry's deer herd the last 5 years or so? And do you believe it is caused by any human activity what so ever? Not just hunting related but as a whole?


He can't. Nor can he explain how AI isn't overrun with deer, despite it being the model for what he believes.
He can't explain why after cutting nearly 150,000 tags, our numbers really didn't change.

But, when you start from his position that Utah has lost 700,000+ deer, becoming gloom and doom is easy I guess.
 
How do you explain the decline on the Henry's deer herd the last 5 years or so? And do you believe it is caused by any human activity what so ever? Not just hunting related but as a whole?
Jake,
Real question. Why is the Henry’s an LE unit to begin with?
 
He can't. Nor can he explain how AI isn't overrun with deer, despite it being the model for what he believes.
He can't explain why after cutting nearly 150,000 tags, our numbers really didn't change.

But, when you start from his position that Utah has lost 700,000+ deer, becoming gloom and doom is easy I guess.
Hoss,
Honesty for the last time. The “number” is based on actual management of each unit in the state. With all of the factors looked at. Including historical data. Then set the number and hold to it addressing issues that effect that overall number. Also including hunter impact. If a unit fall below a certain levels cutting tags or even shutting down the unit until the unit rebounds should be an option. Of which I would support. Spin that and scream all you want. I’m not twisted I’ve gifen the same answer the entire time. It’s just not what you want to hear so you keep screaming. You’ll scream about this post and ignore even when you flat wrong with an assumption.
 
Jake,
Real question. Why is the Henry’s an LE unit to begin with?
Because the dwr made it a limited Entry unit and severely cut tags back. Which in turn pushed people to other places to hunt. Lol how is that even a question?

So now answer my question why is the deer population as a whole declining on the Henry's or the bookcliffs? And do you believe it is caused by hunters? Or even people in general?
 
Hoss,
Honesty for the last time. The “number” is based on actual management of each unit in the state. With all of the factors looked at. Including historical data. Then set the number and hold to it addressing issues that effect that overall number. Also including hunter impact. If a unit fall below a certain levels cutting tags or even shutting down the unit until the unit rebounds should be an option. Of which I would support. Spin that and scream all you want. I’m not twisted I’ve gifen the same answer the entire time. It’s just not what you want to hear so you keep screaming. You’ll scream about this post and ignore even when you flat wrong with an assumption.


I'm going off memory, and I know if I took a minute and did a search it's there.

You believe Utah has lost somewhere between 750,000 -1.25 million deer from it high.

That's the number, if I'm wrong feel free to correct it.

Now of course if your assumption is we've lost 75-90% of the herd since the high, then yeah, we are in doom and gloom mode.

But, since as far as I know, There are 2guys who support that number, and they share the same last name, your an outlier.

In science, outliers happen, but no policy is ever built off of them.


Jake.

I've been down this same road with him for years. It always ends where you are. He has no answer, and in the end it's "I've done this my whole life, I'm smarter"


Good luck changing that
 
Because the dwr made it a limited Entry unit and severely cut tags back. Which in turn pushed people to other places to hunt. Lol how is that even a question?

So now answer my question why is the deer population as a whole declining on the Henry's or the bookcliffs? And do you believe it is caused by hunters? Or even people in general?
Jake,
Not trying too be an asss, but no that is not the complete scenario on the Henrys.

Henrys was a 4 point or better unit for years...before 3 Point or better was even put in place. When the DWR dropped the 3 point or better the Henrys antler restriction was also dropped. The unit got pounded for several years. The herd all but disappeared on that unit, literally almost all the way gone. So they shut it down. They focused on predator control and the unit started to rebound. Once it got to a certain level they started to issue a few tags. Then a few more and a few more. Then a bunch more with the management tags. In the mean time the unit got flooded with people taking pics and video, you know because there were actually big deer to see unlike most of the state. Shed hunting started explode in the hunting world and the place was crawling with people. Add in the non hunting side by side world that has exploded, added buff tags and hunts that start early and go late. Add in posse hunting for big bucks, technology, drought and heavy winters and a unit that has through history show to be sensitive had dipped back down. It never fully came back it just came back enough to shoot a few big bucks and once you injected hunters back in the mix you saw is start to dip again especially with the other added pressure. When you ride a resource on the edge it gets hit harder when drought and winter have their impact.
That is some of my view on the Henrys. I am sure there is tons more info and more to it than what I just laid out. But you asked my opinion so there it is. Hoss will tell you I didn't answer... lol
 
I'm going off memory, and I know if I took a minute and did a search it's there.

You believe Utah has lost somewhere between 750,000 -1.25 million deer from it high.

That's the number, if I'm wrong feel free to correct it.

Now of course if your assumption is we've lost 75-90% of the herd since the high, then yeah, we are in doom and gloom mode.

But, since as far as I know, There are 2guys who support that number, and they share the same last name, your an outlier.

In science, outliers happen, but no policy is ever built off of them.


Jake.

I've been down this same road with him for years. It always ends where you are. He has no answer, and in the end it's "I've done this my whole life, I'm smarter"


Good luck changing that
Hoss,
Again you literally say I state things that are untrue to fit your narrative. I stated that the herd at a high was somewhere between 800,000 and 1.2 million. I never once said that we have lost 1.25 million...ever. That is YOUR number that you're acting like I said. Untrue dude.

Jake,
Did I not nail my last sentence in the post responding to you. LOL. Too funny!
 
Jake,
Not trying too be an asss, but no that is not the complete scenario on the Henrys.

Henrys was a 4 point or better unit for years...before 3 Point or better was even put in place. When the DWR dropped the 3 point or better the Henrys antler restriction was also dropped. The unit got pounded for several years. The herd all but disappeared on that unit, literally almost all the way gone. So they shut it down. They focused on predator control and the unit started to rebound. Once it got to a certain level they started to issue a few tags. Then a few more and a few more. Then a bunch more with the management tags. In the mean time the unit got flooded with people taking pics and video, you know because there were actually big deer to see unlike most of the state. Shed hunting started explode in the hunting world and the place was crawling with people. Add in the non hunting side by side world that has exploded, added buff tags and hunts that start early and go late. Add in posse hunting for big bucks, technology, drought and heavy winters and a unit that has through history show to be sensitive had dipped back down. It never fully came back it just came back enough to shoot a few big bucks and once you injected hunters back in the mix you saw is start to dip again especially with the other added pressure. When you ride a resource on the edge it gets hit harder when drought and winter have their impact.
That is some of my view on the Henrys. I am sure there is tons more info and more to it than what I just laid out. But you asked my opinion so there it is. Hoss will tell you I didn't answer... lol

There is an answer, thank you.

Looks to me like we should go 3 point or better, hammer the predators, and not kill doe's. I would be all over that suggestion for a state wide management plan on all units. Still don't think we need to cut tags. You could even add the caviot of letting youth and elderly shoot whatever they want.

One question when you say they opened it back up after shutting it down, at its peak how many buck tags were they handing out? Even with the management tags it couldn't have been more than 150. I just looked up how many tags for 2012, with management tags it was 76 buck tags. This year there was only 48 tags and 0 management tags. Are you telling me that is what brought the population to what it is now? Do you feel we need to manage all the units like the Henry's?

Maybe it wasn't that they shut the unit down, maybe the intense take down of predators and favorable weather had alot to do with the rise. Sure them shutting the unit down, and then severely limiting tags after that helped grow giant deer, but did it really do much to grow the population other then saving a few bucks from hunters?

I'm not down with managing the state like the Henry's currently takes 23 points to be guaranteed a tag. And we already have 9 LE units in the state we do not need to add more.

I agree with managing the units on a case by case basis, also think they could probably carve a few more units out of some.

As far as other recreational activities I find it hard to believe they are having much of an effect on the deer, how many times do you drive up to a herd of deer and they just stand there ignoring you and continuing on with whateverthey were doing, especially on the limited Entry units.
 
There is an answer, thank you.

Looks to me like we should go 3 point or better, hammer the predators, and not kill doe's. I would be all over that suggestion for a state wide management plan on all units. Still don't think we need to cut tags. You could even add the caviot of letting youth and elderly shoot whatever they want.

One question when you say they opened it back up after shutting it down, at its peak how many buck tags were they handing out? Even with the management tags it couldn't have been more than 150. I just looked up how many tags for 2012, with management tags it was 76 buck tags. This year there was only 48 tags and 0 management tags. Are you telling me that is what brought the population to what it is now? Do you feel we need to manage all the units like the Henry's?

Maybe it wasn't that they shut the unit down, maybe the intense take down of predators and favorable weather had alot to do with the rise. Sure them shutting the unit down, and then severely limiting tags after that helped grow giant deer, but did it really do much to grow the population other then saving a few bucks from hunters?

I'm not down with managing the state like the Henry's currently takes 23 points to be guaranteed a tag. And we already have 9 LE units in the state we do not need to add more.

I agree with managing the units on a case by case basis, also think they could probably carve a few more units out of some.

As far as other recreational activities I find it hard to believe they are having much of an effect on the deer, how many times do you drive up to a herd of deer and they just stand there ignoring you and continuing on with whateverthey were doing, especially on the limited Entry units.
Jake,
I absolutely do NOT believe every unit should be managed like the Henrys. I have never claimed anything close to that. What I stated is each unit looked at and addressed with true management. Management for what is best for the herd until it is healthy. I only state that I support shutting down some units if that is what it takes to stabilize those units. Like my list above I support many many many options before I support cutting tags. Take a look at Monroe. They pounded the coyotes on half the unit and not the other half a few years back. One half of the unit had 80-90% fawn survival while the other half had 20%. Of course the herd grew in that area, and the focus of hunters honed in on that half of the unit. The DWR stopped with predator control, left tags the same and the half is back in the shiiter. You didn't see Hoss or anyone else on here screaming about stopping the predator control. Nope they only show up to scream with the result of that has hurt the herd and someone says man that unit is hurting. Maybe the deer need a break, maybe we need to cut some tags. Why tags...cause its controllable and the easiest fix for the DWR. They know there will be blow back and it will justify doing nothing for the unit. Predator control costs money and takes effort. True management takes effort.
No hunters are not the biggest problem our mule deer face. But not enough hunters care enough to address the real issues. They only care when it effects their ability to get tags. If they don't care enough on the front end then why the hell should they be entitled to a tag on the back end?
You say you support 3 point or better...if you know me and father you'd know how funny that comment is. Lots of options, not enough public care to push them through. The DWR will not ever do it on their own. Actual quote from a high-up years ago..."The day the last Mule Deer in this state dies will be a day I celebrate".
 
Hoss,
Again you literally say I state things that are untrue to fit your narrative. I stated that the herd at a high was somewhere between 800,000 and 1.2 million. I never once said that we have lost 1.25 million...ever. That is YOUR number that you're acting like I said. Untrue dude.

Jake,
Did I not nail my last sentence in the post responding to you. LOL. Too funny!


1,200,000- 350,000(a very high estimate of deer pop today)= 850,000

Last I checked, 850,000 lies between 800,000 and 1.2 million. EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

I know math is tough, but that one ain't that hard.

And to be honest, if we used what YOU really believe the population is today, your number would be nearly 1 million lost deer.


You are correct on the Henries.

Which shows, shutting down units to hunting, doesn't grow the herd, it creates unsupportable big buck numbers. And NO the Henries aren't some freak area that experiences sxs, she'd hunting, drought, etc, etc, etc.

So, what's Muley answer after shutdowns failed, tag cuts failed?

More cowbell

 
Last edited:
1,200,000- 350,000(a very high estimate of deer pop today)= 850,000

Last I checked, 850,000 lies between 800,000 and 1.2 million. EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

I know math is tough, but that one ain't that hard.

And to be honest, if we used what YOU really believe the population is today, your number would be nearly 1 million lost deer.


You are correct on the Henries.

Which shows, shutting down units to hunting, doesn't grow the herd, it creates unsupportable big buck numbers. And NO the Henries aren't some freak area that experiences sxs, she'd hunting, drought, etc, etc, etc.

So, what's Muley answer after shutdowns failed, tag cuts failed?

More cowbell

Hoss you silly guy!!! Good one!!!
 
Maybe we should issue more tags since killing all the bucks doesn't matter. Hell, it was right there in front of us the whole time.

Rich
 
I Think As Long as Everybody is Gonna Fix it We Should Open it Up To Year Around Hunting as Well!

Damn Near There Anyway!



Maybe we should issue more tags since killing all the bucks doesn't matter. Hell, it was right there in front of us the whole time.

Rich
 
You say cutting tags does not help the doe or deer herd. But in the next breath you admit deer herd still going down. So whatever dwr is doing is not working either. Maybe a brilliant idea would be to try some suggestions in these hurting units.
 
You say cutting tags does not help the doe or deer herd. But in the next breath you admit deer herd still going down. So whatever dwr is doing is not working either. Maybe a brilliant idea would be to try some suggestions in these hurting units.
You tell me how it does? How many buck tags you gonna cut out of the Henry's herd to help that population grow?

You suggesting cutting tags? How many tags you gonna cut? If not what are your suggestions
 
Just a few of my thoughts. Jake, I know you weren't saying shoot all the bucks, but having only immature bucks doing most of the breeding doesn't seem right to me. In Oregon they changed the Wenaha elk unit to a spike only hunt, and only put out a limited number of branch antlered bull tags. The research showed that the mature bulls were so low that the breeding was being done by immature bulls. They found that the immature bulls calves were born later, smaller size and had a higher mortality rate. So they needed some mature bulls in the herd. They didn't create the unit for trophy hunting, but that's how it started. I can see how that could translate to mule deer. No, I am not a biologist, but I used to run a state agency and I know how budgets work. If the Division relies on funding from tag sales, you will never get true outcomes based on biology. The budget has to balance, period. So selling tags often is the answer to the question. A state agency budget usually grows at 3-5% every two years, costs go up for the same service. State agencies run on 2 year budgets. Have you noticed that almost every year a few more hunts are added, and if you did the math there would be about 1.5 percent increases in tags given out any given year.

Rich
 
Continuous & Overlapped Hunting From Mid August Through January-February!

Yes!

Them F'N Cow Hunts are Stretched into Jan-Feb Sometimes!

Gutting a Cow Elk With a 1/2 developed Calf inside it!

I'll Pass on that BS!

And It Does Put Pressure on The Deer Herd!

These Scrawny Small Bodied Deer of Today are NOT a Tough Animal like They Once Were!

Carry On!
 
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