Split preference pts

[UINTBB]

Folks,
Can 2 people combine their preference points and split the difference to apply together for deer in Colorado?
I would like to hunt with my brother and we have 11 and 2 preference points. In Utah we average them out and apply together. How does it work in Colorado?
Thank you.
Good luck in the draws.

 

[Ridn9high]

Nope, can’t average points.

If you put in as a group with your brother, your group is only as good as the person with the lowest number of point.

 

[rmanwill]

Your brother needs to hunt with you and scout the area you draw. Then down the road you return th favor and enjoy his hunt.

 

[Bwht4x4]

I think CO could get rid of a lot of older, higher point applicants if they allowed hunters to average points. Many folks are tired of the wait and system and just want to go hunt with kids/grandkids/family.

 

[UINTBB]

Thanks Ridnhigh…..Too bad.
Agreed on both comments.

 

[jims]

Wyo averages pref pts for nonres. I've applied with other nonres hunters over the years that had higher pts than I....and in return hunted with them in units they know nothing about. It's been a win-win situation for both of us. However, there are Wyo residents that have complained that I am taking advantage of other hunters by doing this. Every hunter I have ever averaged pts with has been excited after their hunts and we leave as great friends. I share my years of hunting experience in the particular unit and species we are hunting. This in my eyes is a great benefit to those I've shared hunts with.

Those same Wyo res say that I am jumping in front of other hunters by pt averaging. I guess they don't realize that those that I apply with pts go to 0 after we draw and that they no longer are competing with guys with high pt units. If I didn't apply with them I would likely be hunting every few years and drawing tags that take lower pts to draw. Not sure why it really matters?

With that said, I really like pt averaging. It allows hunters the opportunity to hunt with family and friends that is impossible to do with the present system. Right now it's tough for family members to hunt the same units at the same time because of differences in pref pts.

 

[DirtyTough]

Not a fan of point sharing. It just increases creep.

 

[jims]

If you think about it, it would decrease creep in the higher tier units and possibly increase creep in mid and lower units.

 

[BigChiefJ]

If you think about it, it would decrease creep in the higher tier units and possibly increase creep in mid and lower units.

Limited tags and preference points cause point creep. Averaging points takes the entire group drawn down to zero. That gets more hunters behind you faster.

Wyoming has a good system.

 

[DirtyTough]

To me its simple math. If a person has 10 points what will increase creep the most. Those 10 points drawing 1 tag, or drawing 2 tags? Basic math.

 

[wytex]

Wyo averages pref pts for nonres. I've applied with other nonres hunters over the years that had higher pts than I....and in return hunted with them in units they know nothing about. It's been a win-win situation for both of us. However, there are Wyo residents that have complained that I am taking advantage of other hunters by doing this. Every hunter I have ever averaged pts with has been excited after their hunts and we leave as great friends. I share my years of hunting experience in the particular unit and species we are hunting. This in my eyes is a great benefit to those I've shared hunts with.

Those same Wyo res say that I am jumping in front of other hunters by pt averaging. I guess they don't realize that those that I apply with pts go to 0 after we draw and that they no longer are competing with guys with high pt units. If I didn't apply with them I would likely be hunting every few years and drawing tags that take lower pts to draw. Not sure why it really matters?

With that said, I really like pt averaging. It allows hunters the opportunity to hunt with family and friends that is impossible to do with the present system. Right now it's tough for family members to hunt the same units at the same time because of differences in pref pts.

What residents don't like about your offer is your illegal outfitting, or just illegal guiding. Your using their PP to your own gain and in return guiding them in areas you know well.
I know you will argue otherwise but doesn't pass the smell test for some. Especially if your are using any of Jims equipment.
Just be careful you don't get caught, both hunter and guide could get in trouble if G&F decides to push it, or the WYOGA.
Jims offers have been screenshot ed and shown at G&F commission meetings.
I'm thinking Jims will do it right so as not to get you or himself in trouble but be cautious.

 

[jims]

Similar to anyone else that hunts with friends I don't accept anything and am hunting with buddies so it is 100% legal. Wyo residents that hunt with friends and family in a new area are doing the same exact same thing!

 

[Deerlove]

Me either if they offer me a drink, lunch or dinner I turn them down. sarcasm.

 

[jims]

I've actually been super careful not to accept anything....even a beer or dinner. It sounds silly but not worth the risk!

 

[txhunter58]

It is a mutually beneficial legal hunting strategy, and those that trash it sounds like sour grapes to me. But then opinions vary ?

 

[DW]

Here's to hoping it never happens!?

 

[nripepi]

What if they allowed parents and kids to average and rounded points down? Would people still have a problem with that?

 

[cmbbulldog]

I don’t have a problem either way.... but I would prefer we let folks do whatever we want with points. I have hunted in AZ for elk with folks where they had more points than me, but I had knowledge of the unit and it worked out great. I’m looking at doing the opposite in WY... I have the points and would like to go with someone who has knowledge of a unit (tried last year, but point creep got us).... point being is I have been on both sides of the point spectrum.

now that I have a kid, would love to take my points and partner with him when he is older.... but if the system won’t allow it here in CO, that’s fine.

 

[sticksender]

Point averaging will likely not reduce point creep in Colorado, it would more likely increase it. Some would see the potential for abuse, which is one reason why it has never been allowed. Example, right now if you hold 10 points and want to hunt a 5 point unit, you apply alone and take one license out of the pool. With point averaging, you can apply as a group with any one of your buddies who has zero points, and you take two licenses out of the pool. The next year you apply again as a group with your non-hunting cousin who you've built up 10 points for, and you draw two more licenses out of the pool.

I'm good with eliminating the entire point system and making it a random draw. But as long as point systems are in place, point sharing is probably not a real long-term improvement for the entire applicant pool. But rather it'd be a negative for those people who don't try to game the system and simply wait their turn. There's so much opportunity available to hunt OTC or low-point draw units, that it's a weak argument that the current system restricts guys from hunting with friends and family.

 

[jims]

You are correct that if someone with high pts is willing to apply for lower tier units that he is tossing a lot of pts to the wind. The same is somewhat true when someone with high pts applies with someone with lower pts with pt averaging.

One thing a lot of guys don't seem to understand is that when tags are drawn everyone's pts drop to 0. If I have 3 pts and apply with a guy that has 10 pts both of our pts drop to 0. The next year I have 0 pts and if I apply with a guy with 5 pts both of our pts drop to 0. I would have 1 pt if I don't apply and draw with the guy with 5 pts...the next year I would have 2 pts....the next year 3 pts, etc. I would draw another tag sometime with my accumulated pts. I will be taking pts away from someone else no matter if I apply with a party or continue applying alone.

There is no doubt in my mind that the upper level units will be slightly easier to draw but low to mid pref pt units will likely be tougher to draw with averaging pts. I have a feeling some will jump ship and decide they want to draw a tag with someone else rather than waiting years for a top tier unit. With the current system handing out tags to those with highest pts....those high tier units will continue to be tough to draw. Draw odds for nonres are so much worse than Colo res so I have a feeling that pt averaging will benefit top tier unit applicants less than Colo res.

With the current system it is impossible to apply with family or friends and share hunts if one guy has high and one low pts....unless the person with high pts is willing to drop to drawing a lower tier tag. I guess I'll leave it up to you to decide if that's important.

 

[BigChiefJ]

I would welcome the opportunity to average points with my brother in CO.

 

[SDBugler]

The high point pools will continue to grow because guys are afraid to blow a lot of points on a hunt that takes a lot less points to draw. For example, how many guys will dump 12 points on a unit that takes 6 points to draw. Instead they apply for a unit that takes 11 or 12 because they want to maximize their points. Its just human nature.

In some scenarios, point sharing actually helps keep more tags available in the system. Below is an example I posted a while back related to Wyoming Region G.



I think there is a false conception that point sharing takes tags away from others who are waiting in line.

Let's look at Region G that last year took 5 points to draw and assume an average point creep of about .5 point per year to get to that point level.

If hunter A has 10 points and teams up with hunter B with zero points to apply. That scenario takes two total tags out of the unit over an 11 year period (10 years of point accumulation and drawing on 11th year).

Now let's assume that same hunter A had always applied for region G from the beginning. Let's be conservative and assume he didn't draw the first year when everyone started at zero points.
Year 1 he doesn't draw and there are no points
Year 2 he draws with 1 point and it takes 0.5 points.
Year 3 he has 0 and it takes 1 point to draw
Year 4 he has 1 and it takes 1.5 to draw
Year 5 he has 2 and it takes 2 so he draws his second tag.
Year 6 he has 0 points and it takes 2.5 to draw.
Year 7 he has 1 and it takes 3 to draw.
Year 8 he has 2 and it takes 3.5 to draw.
Year 9 he has 3 and it takes 4 to draw.
Year 10 he has 4 and it takes 4.5 to draw
Year 11 he has 5 and it takes 5 to draw so he draws his third tag

So in the point sharing scenario hunter A actually takes fewer tags out of the draw pool over the same period of time!

People forget that point creep actually hurts the guys who share points and keeps more tags available in the long run.

 

[BigChiefJ]

Based upon how the required points go up every year, point sharing is only going to be good for a limited number of years. This mainly applies to the higher demand units.

Region G is a prime example. Soon sharing is not going to work for a group of 2 applicants.

 

[DirtyTough]

The high point pools will continue to grow because guys are afraid to blow a lot of points on a hunt that takes a lot less points to draw. For example, how many guys will dump 12 points on a unit that takes 6 points to draw. Instead they apply for a unit that takes 11 or 12 because they want to maximize their points. Its just human nature.

In some scenarios, point sharing actually helps keep more tags available in the system. Below is an example I posted a while back related to Wyoming Region G.



I think there is a false conception that point sharing takes tags away from others who are waiting in line.

Let's look at Region G that last year took 5 points to draw and assume an average point creep of about .5 point per year to get to that point level.

If hunter A has 10 points and teams up with hunter B with zero points to apply. That scenario takes two total tags out of the unit over an 11 year period (10 years of point accumulation and drawing on 11th year).

Now let's assume that same hunter A had always applied for region G from the beginning. Let's be conservative and assume he didn't draw the first year when everyone started at zero points.
Year 1 he doesn't draw and there are no points
Year 2 he draws with 1 point and it takes 0.5 points.
Year 3 he has 0 and it takes 1 point to draw
Year 4 he has 1 and it takes 1.5 to draw
Year 5 he has 2 and it takes 2 so he draws his second tag.
Year 6 he has 0 points and it takes 2.5 to draw.
Year 7 he has 1 and it takes 3 to draw.
Year 8 he has 2 and it takes 3.5 to draw.
Year 9 he has 3 and it takes 4 to draw.
Year 10 he has 4 and it takes 4.5 to draw
Year 11 he has 5 and it takes 5 to draw so he draws his third tag

So in the point sharing scenario hunter A actually takes fewer tags out of the draw pool over the same period of time!

People forget that point creep actually hurts the guys who share points and keeps more tags available in the long run.

How many people plan to build 10 points and then share them for a 5 point hunt? I bet 0. More like guys build points and either can't draw the unit they have been chasing, so they decide to hunt with their son, brother, etc.

 

[jims]

It will likely always work for region G. There were a chunk of guys with max or close to max pts that drew those tags this year. When the biggest bucks in the state are coming out of G there will always be

 

[DW]

How many people plan to build 10 points and then share them for a 5 point hunt? I bet 0. More like guys build points and either can't draw the unit they have been chasing, so they decide to hunt with their son, brother, etc.

Ask founder.

 

[jims]

Off the top of my head I can think of at least 3 reasons why guys build pts.

1) A lot of guys tend to accumulate points because they have no idea how, when, and where to hunt an area. They have no clue what bucks are available and how to hunt them. If they knew they likely would have burned their pref pts years before!

2) There may be a few that are waiting for winterkill/drought recovery, great antler growth conditions, or more mature bucks available prior to burning all their pts.

3) Others may be so busy with different hunts that they haven't made time to burn their pts.

There is something to be said about hunting with someone that has first-hand knowledge of an area. I know quite a few nonres that believe it is well worth burning max pts to share a hunt with someone with a wealth of knowledge and experience! A guy with 6 pts may aimlessly hike region G and find only dink bucks while the same guy sharing a hunt with someone with experience in the unit may see several 170+ bucks each day!

 

[Deerlove]

Based upon how the required points go up every year, point sharing is only going to be good for a limited number of years. This mainly applies to the higher demand units.

Region G is a prime example. Soon sharing is not going to work for a group of 2 applicants.
[/QUOTalready is

 

[Deerlove]

When you share pts you get grandmas and non hunting aunts in the pools who don't even hunt, look at Ut.

 

[BigChiefJ]

NR fees are too high to buy points for the whole family.

 

[Deerlove]

Tell that to the Utards putting third cousins in the Ut draw.

 

[buckhorn]

Hey guys, there are some interesting points being made here but don’t forget this thread is on the Colorado forum.
The Wyoming and Utah systems could be beneficial for applicants sharing points but they are much different than Colorado.
Colorado does not average points but you all already know that a group application is determined by its lowest point holder in the group.
Here’s a possible Colorado scenario.
Dad has 15 preference points. His son has 11 points. They want to go hunting together this year so they apply for a hunt that can be drawn with 11 points. I’m sure dad is OK with Having 4 extra points than needed but he still gets to hunt with his son.

Is the question here do you want Colorado to allow points averaging?

 

[DW]

Hey guys, there are some interesting points being made here but don’t forget this thread is on the Colorado forum.
The Wyoming and Utah systems could be beneficial for applicants sharing points but they are much different than Colorado.
Colorado does not average points but you all already know that a group application is determined by its lowest point holder in the group.
Here’s a possible Colorado scenario.
Dad has 15 preference points. His son has 11 points. They want to go hunting together this year so they apply for a hunt that can be drawn with 11 points. I’m sure dad is OK with Having 4 extra points than needed but he still gets to hunt with his son.

Is the question here do you want Colorado to allow points averaging?

Yes, that is the question.

 

[BigChiefJ]

Tell that to the Utards putting third cousins in the Ut draw.

Do they have to biological cousins?

I would like point sharing/averaging in CO. At least for NR.

 

[Bwht4x4]

Hey guys, there are some interesting points being made here but don’t forget this thread is on the Colorado forum.
The Wyoming and Utah systems could be beneficial for applicants sharing points but they are much different than Colorado.
Colorado does not average points but you all already know that a group application is determined by its lowest point holder in the group.
Here’s a possible Colorado scenario.
Dad has 15 preference points. His son has 11 points. They want to go hunting together this year so they apply for a hunt that can be drawn with 11 points. I’m sure dad is OK with Having 4 extra points than needed but he still gets to hunt with his son.

Is the question here do you want Colorado to allow points averaging?

I wish CO would allow ptoint averaging.

 

[DW]

I wish CO would allow ptoint averaging.

I hope they never do.

 

[270Whatelse]

Point sharing/averaging will just lead to abuse IMO.