The Biggest Mistakes the DWR and Wildlife Board have made for deer.

[cannonball]

I think their number one mistake was predator control. I think the demise of deer herds is at hand. Of course, we will always a few here and there, but I would not be surprised to see future deer hunts all limited entry in the next few years.

 

[Robiland]

I am curious of your thoughts. Not saying I disagree, but wondering why you think that?

 

[shootem]

All deer hunts in Utah are limited entry already, it’s just worded different.

 

[Castnshoot]

What kind of predator are you talking about, animals or humans? Or both?

 

[ThunderImpulse4]

Shootem there are also more people that live in Utah as well as more people who want to hunt deer in utah.
So let me make it simple for you. If there are 108,719 residents who applied for a Gen. Season tag
57,477 total resident gen season tags available.
That means your odds are 1 in 1.89 success of getting a tag.

Those are numbers from 2019 season general season resident for deer.

Statically it is easy to understand why not everyone gets a tag every year like 10 or 20 years ago. More people live here and hunt here.

 

[shootem]

Thunder, I get what you are saying however, the general season deer tags are still limited entry. Let me make it simple for you, Idaho is a state that offers otc tags and Utah does not making even the general season tags limited entry. Even in your own example you state that there are more people than tags available. I would say that is a good example of limited entry right there.

 

[ThunderImpulse4]

Shootem in one way you are correct but you are still very wrong.
Limited meaning very few.
2019
1,471 available resident limited entry deer tags
37,622 resident applications.
1 in 25.6.

Statistics my friend are easy to understand.

 

[elkassassin]

That's 2 of the 50+ Reasons why!

Do I need to Re-Post HELL-F'N-RIGHT?

What kind of predator are you talking about, animals or humans? Or both?

 

[340Wby]

I think both of you (shoot'em and Thunder) have valid and legitimate points. The stats you posted are they statewide? If so, that skews numbers for some units. Is it true that we are limited in the number of tags? it sure is.

Below is just my opinion; there are probably gaps and seams but opinions are like noses....everybody has one.

We as hunters have to make our minds up on a few things. The UDWR is managing (should I say social engineering; probably to harsh) the public. Our system in Utah is and has been managed in two tiers; General season and limited/OIL. The OIL/Limited have been managed for very high success rates with limited resources, that's why we have point creep and the removal of any weapon permit numbers for OIL to archery to move a minority of hunters through the pool. General seasons that are managed for opportunity that generally have poor to mediocre success rates. We complain about crowding but then say we want opportunity; we have the opportunity but then we complain about no bucks.

We gotta make our mind up? We are stuck with the system we have. RACS and boards with members that are well educated and knowledgeable in the subject matter but have too many or the appearance of conflicts of interest. A bonus point system that we have learned to live with. A limited resource that is becoming more limited and the shifting demographics/political ideals that are becoming more prevalent in this state.

What could we tweak? IMO-No more conflicts of interest or appearance thereof on the board and RACs- Wanna lose trust? think we already have
Tweak the draw-You can apply for deer or elk and choose between General season or Limited Entry.

It sucks, I hate it, but we have to change to keep up with the facts on the ground. We are far different today than in the mid 70s.......lol remember having your shotgun in the gun rack at school where you either just barely made it to class from duck hunting or you were going right after? Sadly those days are gone......

 

[ThunderImpulse4]

340Wby I agree with you for sure. Times are changing in many many facets and we all need to adapt how ever that may be.

Could our system and hunting success as well as opportunity be better.... absolutely

Could it be worse.... ABSOLUTELY.
Together we can help improve our amazing state. Just remember it can always be worse and we can have our guns taken and hunting become illegal but that is WORST CASE.

 

[dogvalleymule]

What do hunters want opportunity or Quality, or save Units, like the Beaver Unit, that's very low in deer. I want to save Units from being closed.

 

[Vanilla]

More people do not deer hunt here in Utah today than they did 40 years ago. Almost double the amount of people hunted then than deer hunts today. But yes, there are a ton more people overall.

And I don’t think our deer herds are done for. We’ve seen this cycle before, and we’ll see it again.

I still think expansion of the human population (with everything that comes along with that...including loss of habitat) is the biggest factor hurting deer herds.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller?

What I'd Like You to Compare is This:

Total Amount of Hours,Days,Months That TARDS Spent in the Field from 1960 thru 1972!

Then:
Total Amount of Hours,Days,Months That TARDS Spent in the Field from 1998 thru 2020!

The NON-STOP/OVER-LAPPED Hunting From Mid-August Through Jan.-Feb. in the Last Many Years Has Taken a Toll on Our Game Herds!

Mark My F'N Word on it!

Can We Fix it?

I'd Bet against it!

Can We Help it?

HELL-F'N-RIGHT!

 

[Vanilla]

It’s funny that you only view the total amount of hours spent in the field from August though Jan/Feb. you can put stress and impact animals without putting a bullet or arrow through them.

Increased population and increased pressure (from hunters and non-hunters alike) is our new normal. We can’t fix that. So we must make policy based upon our normal today, not what the normal was in 1960. What things looked like in 1960 are completely irrelevant to today’s management discussions.

There are things that can be done to help. None of those involve the color of the clothing one wears when they are afield, however. I’m completely disinterested in the attempts to manage hunters to fix the deer problem. At best those strategies are bandaids, and more prevalently they are totally worthless to the deer.

If people really want to see improvements, stop only managing hunters and start managing deer.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller?

If You Haven't Noticed?

Deer Have been Managed to F';N Death!

And Believe Me!

The Pressure is Year around now days!

 

[elkassassin]

I'll Sure Be Glad when you get it all Fixed Niller!

And I Hope it's Damn Quick!

 

[gundog2]

Allowing people to apply for for “general “ deer and “limited entry” deer hunts does not make any sense to me, but I think selling lifetime deer licenses limits their options. I personally think they should offer some kind buy back on those lifetime licenses and move on to a one deer draw system. They make enough money off that expo to fix problems like this.

 

[Vanilla]

Talking about types of draws or what we’ll call the tags has nothing to do with the deer herd. I’ll become a broken record on this one, but continuing to only manage hunters won’t fix a single issue with the deer herd.

I don’t pretend to have all the answers bessy. This is a biological problem that needs a biological solution. I’m not a biologist, but I know we need to quit focusing on the social aspects of hunting if you want to fix the biological problems.

The reason why that will never happen is because the social is easy. “Cut tags!!!!” “Take away lifetime licenses!” “Antler point restrictions!” “Ban camo!”

All those are easy. And none of them accomplish a darn thing. The biological answers are harder. That’s why we rarely try to fix them.

 

[ThunderImpulse4]

Niller you nailed it! with one exception!

THERE ARE WAY TOO MANY INTERNET BIOLOGISTS ON HERE!
Let alone people who earned a degree from Google State University.

They know the answers trust me if you ask them they will say so.

 

[elkassassin]

Never Said I Have all the Answers Niller!

But there are 50+ Reasons Why!

And most people Blaming just 1 or 2 Problems!

It'll Never Change!

Oh Wait a Minute!

It Will Change!

It'll Get Worse!

Just Stick around!

HELL-RIGHT!

 

[Vanilla]

Here is my best list I can come up with on the fly:

-Loss of habitat
-Deterioration of remaining habitat (invasive weeds, cheat grasses, etc)
-Increased amount of roads
-Expansion of existing roads
-Greatly increased vehicle traffic
-Migration corridors being cut off

If you could figure out how to mitigate 5 of the 6 of these, I believe you'd see a huge benefit. We aren't tearing out roads or killing people off, bulldozing their homes, and turning them back into forest or sage brush, but can we mitigate these factors in some way? I don't know, that is not what I'm paid to figure out.

 

[Vanilla]

Never Said I Have all the Answers Niller!

But there are 50+ Reasons Why!

Except 48 or those 50 you listed are social regulations to manage hunters. They won't do a dang thing. I told you that when you posted it, and I'll tell you again. The color of my truck won't influence the number of deer on the mountain. Neither will fining a poacher $3 million! (even if I agree with you and think it should happen)

 

[elkfromabove]

Allowing people to apply for for “general “ deer and “limited entry” deer hunts does not make any sense to me, but I think selling lifetime deer licenses limits their options. I personally think they should offer some kind buy back on those lifetime licenses and move on to a one deer draw system. They make enough money off that expo to fix problems like this.

They certainly do make enough money off the EXPO to fix problems like this. They just don't have a reason to! They know that fixing hunting "problems" won't fix biological problems.

 

[deadibob]

Yeah, there are so many lifetime licensees out there that it's the problem. Give me a break! Good hell half of them are dead or too old to hunt by now. I'll sell mine back but it's going to cost you six figures and that number isn't starting with a one.

 

[elkassassin]

LOL deadI!

You're Part of the Problem!

Just Ask other MM'ers!

LMMFAO!

Yeah, there are so many lifetime licensees out there that it's the problem. Give me a break! Good hell half of them are dead or too old to hunt by now. I'll sell mine back but it's going to cost you six figures and that number isn't starting with a one.

 

[deadibob]

LOL deadI!

You're Part of the Problem!

Just Ask other MM'ers!

LMMFAO!

Hey Bess, if he don't like my offer I'll make him another one. He can kiss my azz for a nickel.

 

[Homer]

you guys can talk all you want.....you had all those deer back then because of compound 1080....it will never happen again.....

 

[ThunderImpulse4]

well geez mister grumpy britches not with an attitude like that.

 

[Tikka]

you guys can talk all you want.....you had all those deer back then because of compound 1080....it will never happen again.....

Bingo!!!! And No....