The way around 90/10

[BuzzH]

Talked to a buddy tonight and what are your thoughts on this?

How about rather than a resident/nonresident draw how about a resident only draw and an "open draw".

The tag splits stay the same and keep the resident draw open to only residents at the current tag splits.

The "open draw" keep all the same license fees at the NR price, but let the Residents apply for all those tags as well. It would be open to both R and NR hunters. Both could also acquire points, but again if Resident wanted to acquire points for elk, deer, pronghorn, they would have to pay the NR point fee prices for those species.

That would allow Residents to acquire points for elk, deer, pronghorn and also increase tag revenue as some Residents would draw in the open draw and pay the NR fees.

The GF would be more revenue in preference point fees.

Order of draw would be open draw first, any resident that drew in the open draw would not be entered in the Resident only draw.

Win-win-win...

 

[clifhunter]

The problem I have with most western states draws is the federal land. If the hunt I put in for in any state is on public federal lands I should have the same draw odds as residents in that state.

 

[DoubleDropMuley]

As long as we don’t have to get caught up in the damn points game in Wyoming for antelope elk or deer!!! Just sayin

 

[Bob D.]

Seems like it would be unfair to Wyoming residents who cannot afford to pay non-resident prices.

 

[Hunt_the_West]

Residents would be at a disadvantage being so far behind the nonresident in the point game. Assuming premium hunts is what they are interested in, which is what I thought all this mess was about anyways.

 

[Conrad8899]

I wouldn't support any big game points for elk deer and antelope... If WG&F needs money they can raise license fees on nonresidents and residents.. As a resident I would be willing to pay more for my big game license... Once a state goes down the path of preference points there no going back... Whats to say a few years down the road the state wants to modify the draw and now the residents could be stuck with a preference point only draw system... No to points

 

[Hunt_the_West]

That would allow Residents to acquire points for elk, deer, pronghorn and also increase tag revenue as some Residents would draw in the open draw and pay the NR fees.

I don’t see how it increases revenues by license fees if the quota is the same? Doesn’t matter if it’s R or NR 100 tags that are $1,000 each still equals $100,000. I do agree revenue could be generated by the purchase of the points however.

My thought is have the resident draw first, make it five choices instead of three, keep splits the same, any leftover tag goes into the “open draw” for anyone to apply at nonresident prices. That increases license revenue. Win-win-win no?

 

[jm77]

I think this is an idea worth exploring.

 

[BuzzH]

I don’t see how it increases revenues by license fees if the quota is the same? Doesn’t matter if it’s R or NR 100 tags that are $1,000 each still equals $100,000. I do agree revenue could be generated by the purchase of the points however.

My thought is have the resident draw first, make it five choices instead of three, keep splits the same, any leftover tag goes into the “open draw” for anyone to apply at nonresident prices. That increases license revenue. Win-win-win no?

Correct, I misspoke on the license fees would be the same. The fee difference would come from Resident choosing to apply in the open draw and gain points for the open draw.

Nothing else would change with the current resident draw.

 

[BuzzH]

Seems like it would be unfair to Wyoming residents who cannot afford to pay non-resident prices.

Not unfair at all, nothing would change in the resident draw, still be the same as always.

All this would do would allow Residents that CHOSE to, to apply in the open draw at the NR fees. If they didn't draw in the open draw, then they would be entered into the resident only draw.

It would also allow residents to acquire preference points at the NR point fee schedule for the open draw only.

 

[WapitiBob]

Does everybody start over at zero points for the open draw? I'd selfishly be all over that and I have max for Deer and Antelope.

 

[Conrad8899]

Where is the tags coming from on this open draw with preference points? Are U taken the open draw tags from the resident pool or nonresident pool of tags? If U take these open draw tags from the resident pool U will force all residents into the preference point game?

 

[DirtyTough]

How many residents would actually apply for a lower odds tag to start, at the non res price? Doesn’t seem like many would. Plus you would have to wait to draw for residents then.

I am not a Wyoming resident but I bet there would be more backlash from a later drawing than positive by getting to enter the non res draw.

And maybe I’m not grasping it exactly.

WB there is no way you could reset points without a huge uproar. I’d be down for it also though since then I would actually have a chance at every license.

Conrad my understanding is tag splits are exactly the same. Residents would just be allowed to apply in the non res draw at non res prices. After the non res draw then the resident draw would happen.

An interesting concept that doesn’t really seem to benefit the residents that much. Unless you reset points to zero.

 

[Hunt_the_West]

Where is the tags coming from on this open draw with preference points? Are U taken the open draw tags from the resident pool or nonresident pool of tags? If U take these open draw tags from the resident pool U will force all residents into the preference point game?

Tags are coming from the current NR pool

 

[mulecreek]

WB brings up the main sticking point. If PP don't zero for everyone I think you would be hard pressed to get many resident hunters to put in for the open draw at NR prices. The only open draw tags a resident would reasonably draw would be the low demand tags. Those are already not applied for by enough resident hunters at resident prices. If you zeroed everyone's PP then I cant see this being better for NR. As a resident, if you zeroed all PP then I think this would be a fine idea but as a NR I think it would suck. Just makes years of PP worthless and adds more applicants to the pool.

I also think it adds one more level of complication to the whole tag draw, revenue picture. It may turn out to be great at the start but I could guarantee given enough time people will get pissed off and push back. I would like to see the whole system simplified and tag prices tied more directly to cost of management. The waters are already muddied enough. This doesn't make it clearer IMO.

 

[Conrad8899]

Tag splits stay the same but draw odds for residents get worse than they are now.. Because the preference points tags come from the resident pool of tags witch leaves less tags for the regular draw.. We all no what happens with the preference point game it point creep.. So I still don't no how this whole thing helps residents except U get two chances to draw a tag.

 

[WapitiBob]

the pp tags are the nr tags

 

[WapitiBob]

If I have two options as a nr, keep my points and cut the quotas in half, or reset my points, add residents, and leave the quotas the same. I'll choose to reset my points.

 

[elks96]

I am not on board with any move that increases the use of points or will add to any form of point creep. I am adimately against all forms of points and beleive the only fair system is a completely random draw.

That being said I like the thought process of allowing the resident draw to occur first then allowing both resident and NR to apply in the Open for all more exspensive draw. But do not like the idea of anything that will inflate points and am anything that makes the system more reliant on points.

 

[WapitiBob]

When hunter x draws three tags in a row and hunter z draws none, the system is hardly "fair".

 

[mulecreek]

I don't think many people know what fair means.

 

[BuzzH]

Does everybody start over at zero points for the open draw? I'd selfishly be all over that and I have max for Deer and Antelope.

Maybe Residents start with Max points for deer, elk, pronghorn in the open draw for a one time fee?

Since there's points for sheep and moose for both R and NR, those would stay as they are.

 

[mulecreek]

Maybe Residents start with Max points for deer, elk, pronghorn in the open draw for a one time fee?

Now you are on to something.

 

[WapitiBob]

2 less than max would be "fair".

 

[treedagain]

Not even close.

 

[elks96]

If a resident draws in the resident tag for any species then they would have zero points for that species? I really see an issue with point inflation if not. If you suddenly gave all residents a max points, then you really screwed over those who have been diligent for years buying points.

This is why point system are such a horrible idea. they paint you into a corner and leave you with fewer options.

About the only way I see me supporting this move is if we went to draw system where all tags were still offered on a random system and points only slightly increase odds. I would not want any tag gauranteed to the top point holders.

 

[BuzzH]

If a resident draws in the resident tag for any species then they would have zero points for that species? I really see an issue with point inflation if not. If you suddenly gave all residents a max points, then you really screwed over those who have been diligent for years buying points.

This is why point system are such a horrible idea. they paint you into a corner and leave you with fewer options.

About the only way I see me supporting this move is if we went to draw system where all tags were still offered on a random system and points only slightly increase odds. I would not want any tag gauranteed to the top point holders.

Dude...slow down.

The only points that residents could gain would be for the open draw (currently the NR draw) and you wouldn't have to even apply in this draw as a Resident if you didn't want to.

The current Resident draw would stay the exact same...random and no points, same amount of tags, etc.

 

[BuzzH]

Not even close.

Ok, residents start at max in the open draw, settled.

 

[maddog58]

Switch to a system like Nevada and square the points. That way everybody keeps their points.

 

[ss13]

Hello point creep. How about Wy goes to 90/10 and gets rid of the darn point system all together.... I don’t get a vote, but I’d back that change.

 

[ss13]

Is this an idea someone else brought up, or was it thought up over a glass or two of Pendleton?

 

[Founder]

He's just trying to rile you all up with more talk about taking NR tags and giving them to residents. I won't be laying awake at night worrying about Wyoming residents getting max points and being able to apply in the NR draw.

 

[mulecreek]

I won't be laying awake at night worrying about Wyoming residents getting max points and being able to apply in the NR draw.

I thought it was max +2 for residents? I seem to remember reading that somewhere.

 

[BuzzH]

Is this an idea someone else brought up, or was it thought up over a glass or two of Pendleton?

Something a good friend of mine brought up while we were hunting sheep last fall...and its a solid idea.

Don't drink Pendleton, though it is good, crown royal is more to my liking.

 

[ss13]

Don't drink Pendleton, though it is good, crown royal is more to my liking.

?

 

[treedagain]

Ok, residents start at max in the open draw, settled.

Heck take all the tags. You know enough people. Get it done.

 

[BuzzH]

Heck take all the tags. You know enough people. Get it done.

I'm the generous sort...I'll settle for 90%.

 

[treedagain]

I'm the generous sort...I'll settle for 90%.

Yep I heard someone call you Mother Teresa, I might have the Teresa wrong.....??????

 

[DoubleDropMuley]

Hello point creep. How about Wy goes to 90/10 and gets rid of the darn point system all together.... I don’t get a vote, but I’d back that change.

Amen!!! Point chasing sucks !!

 

[jims]

How about a compromise for both res and nonres?

Take some of the current resident tags and put them in a bonus pt rather than pref pt draw. I am guessing Wyo residents are pretty unhappy with the current sheep and moose pref pt system and a bonus pt pool similar to Nevada or Utah may be more popular? Increase the price of the bonus pt tags more than the regular priced res tags plus add a bonus pt fee.

Option 1: Take the current landowner tags and put them in the new Wyo res bonus pt pool where every Wyo resident has the chance to draw!

Option 2 if Option 1 isn't possible: Take a SMALL proportion of nonres tags and place them in the resident bonus pt pool. Residents may be excited having more tags available and nonres would be a lot happier with the idea of a fraction fewer tags but not to the extent of 90:10.

 

[DoubleDropMuley]

I’m against points on deer elk and antelope no matter the typ pref, bonus it dosnt matter they are poison IMO!! I do agree with getting rid of landowner tags and make them draw like the rest of us, I know a few around here that gets them and I’ve never even seen critters on there land nor do they do any improvements to benefit wildlife!! I was under the understanding they had to have so many days with animals on there land of the species the get tags for !!! PTITD!!

 

[El Gringo]

How about leaving it alone??
Wyoming Residents have it pretty good as far as I can tell

 

[Conrad8899]

A 90/10 split resident nonresident tag split... Residents get first choice on the leftover draw... Any resident who draw a limited quota antlered elk or deer tag sits out the draw the following year... If WG&F needs more revenue they can raise resident licenses.. If that's not enough raise nonresident tag fees

 

[AZGuy]

Seems like it would be unfair to Wyoming residents who cannot afford to pay non-resident prices.

Spoken like a true Democrat.

 

[Bob D.]

Spoken like a true Democrat.

LOL. Except I'm no Democrat. Far from it.

 

[highfastflyer]

As a resident, I always liked the preference point system for sheep and moose and always wished we had it on deer and elk. I wouldn’t want to compete or change the system for the non residents, to drop their points, doesn’t seem fair. I would like to see a preference point system implemented on deer and elk. It seems better than average Joe who gets a 102 deer tag 3 years in a row and I haven’t drawn one in 25 years. I also wish we had a CWMU system like Utah and Colorado have. Would be nice to have a chance at hunting a large ranch like Q- Creek. Just my 2 cents. 90/10 seems like a good way to balance the tags more in line with other states.

 

[nripepi]

Maybe Residents start with Max points for deer, elk, pronghorn in the open draw for a one time fee?

Since there's points for sheep and moose for both R and NR, those would stay as they are.

The idea in general is a pretty good one, but I just don't see how you do it with non-residents having 13 or 14 points. Would residents pay to play if they were starting with zero points? I couldn't imagine a situation where residents could buy their way in and jump to the front of the non-resident line, but I guess it could happen.

I am not sure if residents would pay if starting at zero or not? Look at some decent antelope units that take 5 non-resident points to draw, the odds are 25% for residents in those units, same thing on some elk units. If you apply for 5 years you should have already drawn that tag and it didn't cost you the $120 in point fees or the $400 license or the more expensive elk license! But if you were willing to spend that amount of money as a resident, you could then hunt the same unit two years in a row or twice as often over that 4 or 5 year period. The problem is point creep is taking longer to get tags and one might rather hunt a general elk unit then a low point elk unit.

 

[letmgetbig]

This sounds like Utah to me. This is what you get when Hunters way outnumber the Game. There shouldn't even be a Moose hunt in the area I live in. You haven't seen any thing yet wait till they stop feeding the elk on the feed grounds.

 

[rocky2track]

The only points that residents could gain would be for the open draw (currently the NR draw) and you wouldn't have to even apply in this draw as a Resident if you didn't want to.

The current Resident draw would stay the exact same...random and no points, same amount of tags, etc.

So....

Would residents get to average points like NR in the open draw? Do away with averaging altogether?

Thinking out loud here...
This wouldn't affect the current amount of general non-resident tags given already for each Region, it would be just for those limited quota tag areas. NR would still get those general non res quotas set for G, H, K....etc.. Same would be for the general non-res elk quota, that wouldn't change..

Just looking at antelope, since every area is LQ.....hmmm....at a current NR % of around 25% take in Type 1 tags. Plan would be revenue neutral. Good...check that one off. State may even make more $$ off of the added resident point applications in the open draw. So say residents start out at max points, which looking at G&F website that's 14 pts. So were going to give all resident max 14 points that want to jump into this. So say I then jump into the 'Open Draw' with 14 pts for an area that requires 1-13 NR points to draw, I should draw depending on the amount of new max point holder applications. Difficult to quantify creep the first year, could add some significant creep for Nonresidents. Might even be worse than just going to a straight 90/10 split. Could be a 'dry island' for NR the first year.

I don't know how many points it takes for the 'average NR pts holder' to draw an antelope tag, but the State could see a run on tags in the first few years given to residents? Seems like it'd take a little while for everyone, res and nonres to get mixed up throughout the pool. Hmmm....that's a big question on how many points residents would get to start with in the "Open Draw'. And how long does a resident have to jump into the 'open draw' and get max pts? Would it be their first time they get in its max pts, then after that residents would start at 0? IDK, 90/10 might be better for non residents...

 

[elks96]

As a resident, I always liked the preference point system for sheep and moose and always wished we had it on deer and elk. I wouldn’t want to compete or change the system for the non residents, to drop their points, doesn’t seem fair. I would like to see a preference point system implemented on deer and elk. It seems better than average Joe who gets a 102 deer tag 3 years in a row and I haven’t drawn one in 25 years. I also wish we had a CWMU system like Utah and Colorado have. Would be nice to have a chance at hunting a large ranch like Q- Creek. Just my 2 cents. 90/10 seems like a good way to balance the tags more in line with other states.

No trust me and everyone from every other state when we tell you not to get points for deer and elk. Sorry but it is a horrible idea and in 20 years you will hate it. no matter how the system is designed.

 

[BuzzH]

The CWMU and ranching for wildlife is a hard no as well..

 

[highfastflyer]

No trust me and everyone from every other state when we tell you not to get points for deer and elk. Sorry but it is a horrible idea and in 20 years you will hate it. no matter how the system is designed.

The big difference currently with Wyoming are the General units are actually decent units to hunt if you’re willing to put in the effort. Unlike neighbouring states that have far too many hunters afield for the dwindling amount of deer and elk. You probably don’t remember what it was like without a preference point system. I can tell you, it doesn’t seem fair at all when your neighbor draws the most coveted tag in the state 3 years in a row and I have applied and been unsuccessful for 25 years and likely never will be without some sort of preference system. As bad as you may hate them, they at least have a little light at the end of the tunnel vs. Never drawing.

 

[highfastflyer]

The CWMU and ranching for wildlife is a hard no as well..

It all depends upon how it is set up. You would need a state coordinator very proactive to force equal access, dates, times, and use to keep it equitable for public vs. client hunters. The neighbouring states haven’t done a great job overall, though many top ranches the public hunters often times kill the largest bulls as they are the best hunters. Deseret Ranch in Utah is a good example of how it should be done. It’s all about the set up and management. Properly managed it can be a big win-win for all parties. Large ranches can have a steady stream of income and actually be able to get tags for their clients and public hunters would now be able to hunt some of the biggest ranches in the state like Q-Creek, Wagonhound and Pathfinder.

 

[mntnguide]

The big difference currently with Wyoming are the General units are actually decent units to hunt if you’re willing to put in the effort. Unlike neighbouring states that have far too many hunters afield for the dwindling amount of deer and elk. You probably don’t remember what it was like without a preference point system. I can tell you, it doesn’t seem fair at all when your neighbor draws the most coveted tag in the state 3 years in a row and I have applied and been unsuccessful for 25 years and likely never will be without some sort of preference system. As bad as you may hate them, they at least have a little light at the end of the tunnel vs. Never drawing.

If you started building points right now for one of Wyoming's late season bull tags, you will never draw in your life still most likely. Ill take the random draw currently as a resident that gives me a chance every year. Look at Colorado, where some of the top units 2, 10 etc... are completely impossible to draw for a resident or non resident who has recently entered the point pool. They will never draw those tags. There definitely isn't always a little light at the end in a point pool system. Some units it will work for, some it never will.

 

[BuzzH]

It all depends upon how it is set up. You would need a state coordinator very proactive to force equal access, dates, times, and use to keep it equitable for public vs. client hunters. The neighbouring states haven’t done a great job overall, though many top ranches the public hunters often times kill the largest bulls as they are the best hunters. Deseret Ranch in Utah is a good example of how it should be done. It’s all about the set up and management. Properly managed it can be a big win-win for all parties. Large ranches can have a steady stream of income and actually be able to get tags for their clients and public hunters would now be able to hunt some of the biggest ranches in the state like Q-Creek, Wagonhound and Pathfinder.

This never works to the benefit of the public hunters, ever. Whether its a discrepancy in the total number of tags that public hunters receive (always less), timing of when the public hunts versus when the paying guys hunt, where they're allowed to hunt, lack of being able to scout, etc. etc. etc.

Not to mention they all may start out with good ideas and intentions, but the outfitters on these places will continually look for a way to favor themselves and put the clamps on the public hunters...always.

Never going to support it in Wyoming.

 

[jm77]

If you started building points right now for one of Wyoming's late season bull tags, you will never draw in your life still most likely. Ill take the random draw currently as a resident that gives me a chance every year. Look at Colorado, where some of the top units 2, 10 etc... are completely impossible to draw for a resident or non resident who has recently entered the point pool. They will never draw those tags. There definitely isn't always a little light at the end in a point pool system. Some units it will work for, some it never will.

No drawing system on earth favors hard to draw units, be it random, random/PP, PP, or bonus points. Some will draw, some will never draw.

 

[mntnguide]

No drawing system on earth favors hard to draw units, be it random, random/PP, PP, or bonus points. Some will draw, some will never draw.

Correct, but I'll take the random draw chances over knowing I'll never have a chance as with pp point systems that are well established and impossible to catch. Thanks to random i got to hunt late season bulls last year, PP system i never would have. I like Idaho's system in that you either put in for a sheep/ moose/ or goat... or you can put in for elk/deer/antelope. Makes people decide what's more important. 1 of the big 3 or the others. In a random draw scenario, it will help to keep numbers down because people are forced to make a choice

 

[jims]

My vote is to keep resident tags separate from nonres. There's a reason this is true in every Western state that issues limited tags. The WG&F would have nothing but headaches dealing with a mix of res and nonres applicants that started a pref pt system different years and were all competing for high demand tags. You can guess who would loose every battle....nonres!

Take a look at draw stats for deer, elk, and antelope in Nevada. Talk about a Western state I would love to be a resident! It doesn't take long for NV residents to draw some of the best units in the state. NV is similar to WY in regard to few resident hunters.(applicants). WY hands out way more antelope, deer, and elk tags than NV. A bonus pt system similar to NV's where pts are cubed would work very well for Wyo residents where applicants draw tags and filter through the system fairly quickly.

Wyo residents currently have guaranteed deer and elk units the years they don't draw limited tags so why not have a better chance to draw limited units every year you apply with a bonus pt system that is cubed? Every applicant has the chance to draw tags but those with higher bonus pts truly have better draw odds.

 

[AZGuy]

LOL. Except I'm no Democrat. Far from it.

I’m joking

 

[AZGuy]

the way AZ is set is currently the best for residents. 10%NR, 20% to top Bonus point holders, 70% at random to residents. By far the best state if you are a resident and the best elk and deer hunting in the country. And I’m from Colorado just so we are clear.

 

[highfastflyer]

If you started building points right now for one of Wyoming's late season bull tags, you will never draw in your life still most likely. Ill take the random draw currently as a resident that gives me a chance every year. Look at Colorado, where some of the top units 2, 10 etc... are completely impossible to draw for a resident or non resident who has recently entered the point pool. They will never draw those tags. There definitely isn't always a little light at the end in a point pool system. Some units it will work for, some it never will.

The extremely difficult tags are difficult and unlikely to be drawn under any system. What I find just plain unfair is how someone can get this tag 3 years in a row and I have never drawn it in 25 years, nor will I likely draw it in my lifetime. It’s better to have an ever increasing set of odds albeit a low percentage than 1 in 3000 odds and my neighbor gets it 3 years in a row. Also, the medium difficult to draw tags would now be obtainable every 8 to 10 years vs. most likely never drawing one of those tags under our current random system. The moderately easy tags which I usually get about one every 5 years, I could now chart a pathway to obtaining a tag like that more routinely and be able to plan for it. I have dealt with the Wyoming preference point system as a resident bighorn sheep and moose and always really enjoyed the system. Wish we could get it for deer and elk.

 

[highfastflyer]

There

This never works to the benefit of the public hunters, ever. Whether its a discrepancy in the total number of tags that public hunters receive (always less), timing of when the public hunts versus when the paying guys hunt, where they're allowed to hunt, lack of being able to scout, etc. etc. etc.

Not to mention they all may start out with good ideas and intentions, but the outfitters on these places will continually look for a way to favor themselves and put the clamps on the public hunters...always.

Never going to support it in Wyoming.

There are many great examples of how it should work. The key is to how it is set up and managed. All your concerns can be easily and properly managed with an active state coordinator. The seasons, areas of the ranch, number of tags and scouting etc, etc, etc. can all be effectively managed properly with good oversight. There are many good examples of how it can be done right like Deseret in Utah where the biggest bulls are often killed by the public hunters. It could be a win-win for all. I am all in favor of them with proper oversight.

 

[WapitiBob]

Deseret is the well documented exception.

 

[jims]

Colo has had RFW for years. Most of the poor ranches or ranches that don't offer public hunters decent hunting opportunity have been eliminated. There is a reason why the better RFW ranches require close to max pts to draw!

Also, if you think about it these same ranches would be off limits to public hunters without the RFW program. It opens up a lot of private acres to public hunters. It's obviously important to pick and choose which ranches to hunt but some of the biggest bucks and bulls harvested by public hunters in Colo are shot on these ranches each year!

Another benefit to RWF is that landowners are encouraged to make wildlife improvements on their ranches. It's to the ranches advantage to make these improvements that promote wildlife management. Many of these ranches charge premium rates for their pay clients so it's to their advantage to improve wildlife habitat.

I really think Wyo is missing out not taking advantage of such programs! As mentioned above there are some incredible private ranches in Wyo that could potentially provide great opportunity that gates are currently closed to public hunters!

 

[BuzzH]

The large ranches already charge a premium to hunt their lands.

No way is WY getting a RFW type program.

 

[BuzzH]

Something interesting to talk about...90-10 split, resident only for RFW tags...wonder if the outfitters would bite?

 

[jims]

In Colo the RFW program offers guided clients premium hunting dates with extended seasons. In exchange, these ranches offer public hunters an allotted number of buck/doe, bull/cow, and ram/ewe tags.

Most of the RFW guided clients hunt prime rut dates that are several months long. If they over-harvest and quality declines they won't get the same premium prices for their guided hunts. Public hunters have the opportunity to hunt many of the same bucks and bulls that ultimately would not be available without the program.

The biggest bighorn rams in the Colorado are currently found on one of these RFW ranches that ultimately were closed to public hunters prior to joining the RFW program. In fact, several of the recent Colo state record B&C rams have been harvested on this ranch. Every few years a lucky public hunter has the opportunity to hunt these same rams!

RFW ranches also offer a quality opportunity for public hunters to hunt does and cows to reach management goals. This is a great opportunity for meat hunters! I'm pretty sure the WG&F has problems keeping elk population management objectives when elk tend to migrate onto private ranches during hunting seasons? Well, here's a pretty simple solution!

Several of these RFW also offer opportunities for young public hunters to harvest animals during special hunting dates. Talk about a great experience for young hunters!

If Wyo residents want more quality hunting opportunity with more tags....here you go!

Wyoming is missing out not having such a program and opening thousands of private acres to public Wyoming resident hunters! I certainly hope the WG&F is eves-dropping on this post and picking up on the benefit this program has for both wildlife and public Wyoming hunters!

 

[Hunt_the_West]

Something interesting to talk about...90-10 split, resident only for RFW tags...wonder if the outfitters would bite?

Only way outfitters are biting is if they have transferable RFW tags (just like CO and Ut cwmu) to line their pockets, otherwise what possible incentive would they have. So I’m going with no...

 

[rocky2track]

Only way outfitters are biting is if they have transferable RFW tags (just like CO and Ut cwmu) to line their pockets, otherwise what possible incentive would they have. So I’m going with no...

Agree. Large landowners already will either outfit the hunt themselves and charge a fee, or, they lease their hunting rights to an outfitter and make them manage the property to keep people off so they don't have the headache during long seasons. I think the last thing the State wants to do is get into it with outfitters. Some of which are family run operations on their own land. Around Sublette Co an RFW program may work for elk & antelope hunts on a few ranches, but many of these already are doing their own thing and some do allow cow elk and antelope hunting on a limited basis as relationships have been developed. Any many ranches are in general season areas. Each STATE has its own characteristics & habitats, and what works for one may not for the other.

 

[Sierra]

Something a good friend of mine brought up while we were hunting sheep last fall...and its a solid idea.

Don't drink Pendleton, though it is good, crown royal is more to my liking.

How fitting. Buzz, the guy that fashions himself as the King, likes to drink Crown Royal.

 

[Packout]

Wyoming residents would be crazy to want points for all species.

 

[jm77]

Wyoming residents would be crazy to want points for all species.

You might want to read it again. Resident draw stays the same.

 

[BuzzH]

How fitting. Buzz, the guy that fashions himself as the King, likes to drink Crown Royal.

I actually don't drink much at all...but, when I have people over I like the downstairs bar in the old double wide to be well stocked.

If you're going to offer someone a drink, it doesn't need to be old crow...

 

[mulecreek]

I actually don't drink much at all...but, when I have people over I like the downstairs bar in the old double wide to be well stocked.

You got a good tip on how to keep the tires on the roof of your double wide from weather checking?

 

[BuzzH]

You got a good tip on how to keep the tires on the roof of your double wide from weather checking?

I roll the old ones into the creek to help stabilize the banks. I sneak down to the tire shop under the cloak of darkness, and get new ones every so often from the pile out front.

I guess I could just burn the old tires in the fireplace for heat, another option.

 

[Packout]

You might want to read it again. Resident draw stays the same.

"Both could also acquire points, but again if Resident wanted to acquire points for elk, deer, pronghorn, they would have to pay the NR point fee prices for those species. " -1st post

I can read. Residents gain points under this proposal. I stand by my statement. Once some residents get points for all species then there will be a push for points for all residents. Points only work for short term periods- say 10 years of less, where all applicants can move thru the system. There will be people with 30+ points in many states, all waiting in line for tags that take more than a lifetime to draw.

 

[Sierra]

I actually don't drink much at all...but, when I have people over I like the downstairs bar in the old double wide to be well stocked.

If you're going to offer someone a drink, it doesn't need to be old crow...

I didn’t mean to imply that Crown Royal was high-end stuff. It’s just one step above Wild Turkey.

 

[BuzzH]

I didn’t mean to imply that Crown Royal was high-end stuff. It’s just one step above Wild Turkey.

Who knows, maybe I'll hoist one in your honor this weekend...

 

[rocky2track]

I actually don't drink much at all...but, when I have people over I like the downstairs bar in the old double wide to be well stocked.

If you're going to offer someone a drink, it doesn't need to be old crow...

If that's the first generation of Wyoming Whiskey your smart to keep the seal intact on it........

 

[jm77]

"Both could also acquire points, but again if Resident wanted to acquire points for elk, deer, pronghorn, they would have to pay the NR point fee prices for those species. " -1st post

I can read. Residents gain points under this proposal. I stand by my statement. Once some residents get points for all species then there will be a push for points for all residents. Points only work for short term periods- say 10 years of less, where all applicants can move thru the system. There will be people with 30+ points in many states, all waiting in line for tags that take more than a lifetime to draw.

Yeah, and the resident draw stays the same.(100% random)

 

[jm77]

I actually don't drink much at all...but, when I have people over I like the downstairs bar in the old double wide to be well stocked.

If you're going to offer someone a drink, it doesn't need to be old crow...

No one's looking at the whiskey. I am surprised those flimsy walls in that trailer hold those out of state heads so well.

 

[Bookhead]

The only problem with this proposal is trying to explain it to all the dips###s that freak out as soon as they hear the words preference points and block out the rest of what your proposing

 

[highfastflyer]

Agree. Large landowners already will either outfit the hunt themselves and charge a fee, or, they lease their hunting rights to an outfitter and make them manage the property to keep people off so they don't have the headache during long seasons. I think the last thing the State wants to do is get into it with outfitters. Some of which are family run operations on their own land. Around Sublette Co an RFW program may work for elk & antelope hunts on a few ranches, but many of these already are doing their own thing and some do allow cow elk and antelope hunting on a limited basis as relationships have been developed. Any many ranches are in general season areas. Each STATE has its own characteristics & habitats, and what works for one may not for the other.

Many landowners could greatly benefit if they could get tags in limited quota areas. Sublette County is mostly a General area county but there are a few areas up there whom could benefit in the limited quota areas. A better example would be Area 7 elk. If the Wagonhound could get 20 guaranteed tags where many years there hunts are only booked by 4-5 hunters whom were lucky enough to draw. The key here is open up MORE

 

[highfastflyer]

Wyoming residents would be crazy to want points for all species.

Wyoming doesn’t have the population not the encroachment on winter range that surrounding states have. The preference point system has worked very well on moose and bighorn sheep, no reason to think it couldn’t work on elk and deer. Probably best to keep it separate from the non residents, especially with the point differences but absolutely could help bring some fairness and equity to a system where you rarely draw in any unit with odds less than 1 in 5. I know one hunter who has drawn 3 tags consecutively in one of the most coveted areas in the state. Doesn’t seem fair he can pull that off when I haven’t drawn it once in 25 years.

 

[mulecreek]

Many landowners could greatly benefit if they could get tags in limited quota areas. Sublette County is mostly a General area county but there are a few areas up there whom could benefit in the limited quota areas. A better example would be Area 7 elk. If the Wagonhound could get 20 guaranteed tags where many years there hunts are only booked by 4-5 hunters whom were lucky enough to draw. The key here is open up MORE

What could possibly go wrong with increasing the financial incentive to private landowners of harboring more wildlife on their land?

 

[WapitiBob]

I'd bet most LO's LO's and Outfitters in 7 would love to get 50+ cow tags they could sell at $1,500ea and a dozen Bull tags at 10K.

 

[highfastflyer]

What could possibly go wrong with increasing the financial incentive to private landowners of harboring more wildlife on their land?

Well, we know what could certainly go right, be a win-win and open up more hunting opportunity. 99% of these large landowners do not allow any public hunters, haven’t for years and never will unless there is an incentive. Giving them some tags, would allow increased hunting opportunity for the public with a CWMU type program and with a steady stream of revenue they would certainly do projects to benefit the wildlife. This in turn would provide increased spillover numbers onto neighboring public lands and with a little more hunting pressure on the private it could also push more animals onto public giving the public a chance. What we have now doesn’t benefit the public much at all. We are missing out on a Huge potential win-win. Most neighboring sTate’s have them and some here have even expressed their dumbfoundedness at the Blindness here.

 

[highfastflyer]

I'd bet most LO's LO's and Outfitters in 7 would love to get 50+ cow tags they could sell at $1,500ea and a dozen Bull tags at 10K.

I’d bet most public hunters in 7 and many other limited entry areas would love to get their hands on a dozen bull tags on large ranches and 50+ cow tags on these private lands to open up some public hunting benefit. At current we have none as 99% of these landowners haven’t allowed public on for decades nor will they. With a properly managed CWMU type program we might be able to just do that.

 

[BuzzH]

I’d bet most public hunters in 7 and many other limited entry areas would love to get their hands on a dozen bull tags on large ranches and 50+ cow tags on these private lands to open up some public hunting benefit. At current we have none as 99% of these landowners haven’t allowed public on for decades nor will they. With a properly managed CWMU type program we might be able to just do that.

What a load of crap...have you ever hunted unit 7? Doesn't sound like it and has not been my experience.

 

[jims]

How is opening up current private land to public hunters not a fantastic idea? The Piney Valley, Hill, Pinon Mesa, Silver Spur, Trinchera, Kiowa, ranches (to name a few) in Colo were behind closed gates prior to the RFW program. Currently these ranches require close to max pts for Colo residents to draw.

Can you imagine if the Q, Wagonhound, Pathfinder, and other quality ranches in Wyo suddenly opened their gates to public Wyo resident hunters.....WOW!

I'm certain that if the Q or Wagonhound suddenly offered a few tags available in the public draw that these would be extremely difficult tags to draw. I can guarantee this would relieve some of the current high demand placed on other top tier elk, deer, and antelope units that are available with poor draw odds to Wyo residents. Obviously the more quality tags available to Wyo residents the better the draw odds!

RFW would also allow public hunters the opportunity to harvest cow elk that the WG&F has a difficult time managing when elk find security on large private ranches. Not only are cow elk harvested but elk are also spooked onto adjacent public land where public hunters have a better opportunity to harvest them.

Someone asked what incentive do these ranches have for doing this? Take a look at how much the Hill, Pinon Mesa and other top RFW in Colo charge their pay clients. I would need a 2nd mortgage on my house to afford such a guided hunt! Not to mention the ability to have guaranteed set number of tags that are issued every year to their family, friends, and pay clients. To top it off these ranches have the opportunity to use these tags for extended season dates and the ability to hunt during prime rut. I'm also certain that these ranches are given small grants to improve wildlife habitat that ultimately improves wildlife health that benefits everyone.

If Wyo was smart they would toss the ridiculous landowner tag system that is currently in place. Hand a chunk of these tags back over to Wyo residents in the draw and open up private ranches to a RFW system where public Wyo resident hunters get a chunk of additional tags! Ultimately Wyo resident hunters would be the winners!

What does Wyoming have to loose by opening up more hunting opportunity to Wyo residents that currently is behind locked gates? Wyo residents want more tags.....here's a perfect way to open up a bunch of high quality tags that are currently unavailable!

I hope the WG&F is reading these posts so they have a clear understanding of the many benefits a RFW program would have in Wyoming!

 

[highfastflyer]

What a load of crap...have you ever hunted unit 7? Doesn't sound like it and has not been my experience.

What is certainly a load of crap is Never being able to hunt these large ranches and 99% never giving access. I have had every call I have ever made Denies and doors slammed in my face asking.
“have you ever hunted 7? Every chance I can, which isn’t often, sure would be nice if we had a preference point system in a Wyoming on elk and deer.

 

[marburg]

Never happen. Just urinating in the wind and getting your hands all wet.

 

[Hunt_the_West]

What is certainly a load of crap is Never being able to hunt these large ranches and 99% never giving access. I have had every call I have ever made Denies and doors slammed in my face asking.
“have you ever hunted 7? Every chance I can, which isn’t often, sure would be nice if we had a preference point system in a Wyoming on elk and deer.

You make it sound almost as if you have a right to hunt someone’s private ranch? It’s their land, they pay the taxes, and with all the sue happy people and general attitudes of every Tom, dick, and Harry I be hard pressed to allow anyone to hunt my ranch.

 

[highfastflyer]

You make it sound almost as if you have a right to hunt someone’s private ranch? It’s their land, they pay the taxes, and with all the sue happy people and general attitudes of every Tom, dick, and Harry I be hard pressed to allow anyone to hunt my ranch.

Do you even understand how a CWMU functions as you seem Ignorant? You actually make my point. I agree 99% of these ranches won’t let you hunt. Period. The incentive they would have to allow us as public to hunt is Wyoming owns the wildlife and the tags. If you are a ranch like the Wagonhound they normally can only get 4-5 hunters on there ranch to actually draw the tag. If the State gave them 20 bull tags in exchange for 4 public hunters having the opportunity to hunt then that is a huge income stream they can harvest. 20 X $10,000 per hunt probably more is $200,000 per year. That will feed a lot of cows and make them want to tap into a more steady stream of guaranteed cash flow. It would be a win-win for all. Read Jims post 3 above. His experience is with Colorado. Utah has a decent one though both would need tweaking in order to work in Wyoming.

 

[jm77]

The last time the G&F(with outfitters backing 100%) tried to push landowner set-asides in exchange for public hunter participation, they had to hold the public meeting in a local banquet room in Casper. Trust me when I say it was standing room only. The hundreds that showed up said a resounding "NO" to landowner transferable tags, even with a 10% allocation to public hunters. The Governor even got his two cents in against the idea.

Say "set-aside licenses" in Wyoming if you want to fire up resident hunters.

 

[rocky2track]

The resource isn't unlimited, especially bulls/bucks. Maybe it is in Colorado. Perhaps the reason the hunting is good on some of these Wyoming ranches is because the landowners are good with the limited amount of hunting they have right now and wish to keep it that way. The tradeoff, the $$$, isn't worth it to them as you get public hunters on their property thinking they just hit the mother load and start blazing at the the very thing the landowner has managed to give their paying clients a certain experience. The public doesn't have the right to hunt someone else's property. We're lucky enough in Wyoming that we have some quality hunting opportunities both in General and LQ areas, you just need to go find it. What a jealous, greedy mentality this type of system harbors.

 

[BuzzH]

How is opening up current private land to public hunters not a fantastic idea? The Piney Valley, Hill, Pinon Mesa, Silver Spur, Trinchera, Kiowa, ranches (to name a few) in Colo were behind closed gates prior to the RFW program. Currently these ranches require close to max pts for Colo residents to draw.

Can you imagine if the Q, Wagonhound, Pathfinder, and other quality ranches in Wyo suddenly opened their gates to public Wyo resident hunters.....WOW!

I'm certain that if the Q or Wagonhound suddenly offered a few tags available in the public draw that these would be extremely difficult tags to draw. I can guarantee this would relieve some of the current high demand placed on other top tier elk, deer, and antelope units that are available with poor draw odds to Wyo residents. Obviously the more quality tags available to Wyo residents the better the draw odds!

RFW would also allow public hunters the opportunity to harvest cow elk that the WG&F has a difficult time managing when elk find security on large private ranches. Not only are cow elk harvested but elk are also spooked onto adjacent public land where public hunters have a better opportunity to harvest them.

Someone asked what incentive do these ranches have for doing this? Take a look at how much the Hill, Pinon Mesa and other top RFW in Colo charge their pay clients. I would need a 2nd mortgage on my house to afford such a guided hunt! Not to mention the ability to have guaranteed set number of tags that are issued every year to their family, friends, and pay clients. To top it off these ranches have the opportunity to use these tags for extended season dates and the ability to hunt during prime rut. I'm also certain that these ranches are given small grants to improve wildlife habitat that ultimately improves wildlife health that benefits everyone.

If Wyo was smart they would toss the ridiculous landowner tag system that is currently in place. Hand a chunk of these tags back over to Wyo residents in the draw and open up private ranches to a RFW system where public Wyo resident hunters get a chunk of additional tags! Ultimately Wyo resident hunters would be the winners!

What does Wyoming have to loose by opening up more hunting opportunity to Wyo residents that currently is behind locked gates? Wyo residents want more tags.....here's a perfect way to open up a bunch of high quality tags that are currently unavailable!

I hope the WG&F is reading these posts so they have a clear understanding of the many benefits a RFW program would have in Wyoming!

The only benefit would be to the outfitters and landowners...period.

The WGF Department would get a big pain in their a$$ administrating the program, fielding complaints when LO's limit parts of the ranch to paying clients only, when they let the public hunt (always after the paying clients), etc. etc. etc.

It wouldn't increase revenue a single dime.

Not to mention its a dereliction of the North American Model of Wildlife conservation.

Landowners already have an avenue to make all the money they want...and most all the private land in Wyoming is open to the public, just a matter of how much you want to spend for that access.

You know this better than anyone Sebastian, every time you plop down the cash to hunt pronghorn in 62...

Like Jeff said, good luck getting a RFW program off the ground in Wyoming.

 

[BuzzH]

What is certainly a load of crap is Never being able to hunt these large ranches and 99% never giving access. I have had every call I have ever made Denies and doors slammed in my face asking.
“have you ever hunted 7? Every chance I can, which isn’t often, sure would be nice if we had a preference point system in a Wyoming on elk and deer.

I hunt it every year...and finding elk to kill on public land and on private is not a problem.

Judging by the way you present yourself on this board...I don't doubt you've had doors slammed in your face.

 

[jims]

The reknown Eastman family that reside in Wyo must not think it's a bad idea heading down to Colo just about every year to hunt world class elk, deer, and antelope on the Hill RFW! Take a look at the Eastman's videos.
https://www.hillranches.com/videos

What's amazing is that tags are available for these quality bucks and bulls to lucky public hunters that draw these tags! It's a no-brainer to me!

Obviously the Wyo meeting in the post above didn't go over well due to the way this program was designed. Take a look at my detailed post above about all of the positive implications there are for this program.

I certainly hope WG&F program coordinators are watching this post! It may be wise for the WG&F to contact the Colo Parks and Wildlife and Utah Game and Fish to discuss positive and negative impacts in regard to these programs that can be used to Wyoming's advantage. They may also want to reach out to ranch managers in these programs and ask them what they think? I'm sure they are excited or wouldn't have anything to do with the program!

No one opposed to RFW has given any meaningful explanations on why this program wouldn't work! Like usual the negative comments in the above post twist and turn reality! Buzz and other critics have no experience on RFW ranches so have no clue what they are about. I've actually done habitat improvement projects on several of these ranches in Colo and they are amazing! I've been fortunate to draw several RFW tags over the years and had incredible hunts! Any hunter that draws a public tag will have a once in a lifetime experience!

RFW would open up thousands of private acres in Wyo to public hunters that currently is behind locked gates!

 

[BuzzH]

Already have an access program.

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Public%20Access/2019-Access-Yes-Report-FINAL.pdf

Wyoming Game and Fish Department - Access Yes Donors

wgfd.wyo.gov