This place looked a lot different

feddoc

feddoc

Long Time Member
Messages
7,219
76 years ago tomorrow.

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Homer said:
...they asked for it
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Yup.

I have friend whose dad was OSS. My friend has pics his dad took of the Enola Gay taking off to drop the bomb, pics of behaded US sailors, pics of the meat from US sailors on sticks. He also has a flag from a failed kamikazee attack. The dude was in the water after he crashed short of the boat he was trying to bomb. Then he started shouting obscenities, so the sailors lit him up.



en.wikipedia.org

Japanese war crimes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Homer said:
My great uncle Julian spent four years in the pacific fighting the Japanese.......at 70 years old he found out his Ford Ranger had a Japanese engine in it.....never drove it again
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My uncle, buried at Arlington, fought on Tinian, Saipan, Iwo Jima...he was a bodyguard for a chaplain. He could not stand Japanese cars either. He drove a Mercedes. I asked him why and he said the Germans didn't try to kill him.
 
I had several family members that fought the Japanese in the Pacific, and they all had a extreme hatred for the Japanese due to war crimes. There should have been a third atomic bomb dropped on Japan and ground zero would have been the Imperial palace.

RELH
 
RELH said:
I had several family members that fought the Japanese in the Pacific, and they all had a extreme hatred for the Japanese due to war crimes. There should have been a third atomic bomb dropped on Japan and ground zero would have been the Imperial palace.

RELH
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History says that was discussed, but not a likelihood as those in power would have rather had the emperor alive to act as a leader instead of a bunch of different, fanatical, groups still waging war.
 
Two of my great uncles were in ww2 one stormed the beaches of Normandy and the other in Iwo Jima both came back alive Marion was always worried that the Chinese were tunneling threw the earth to take over the USA. Jim was never the same when he came back.
 
feddoc said:
History says that was discussed, but not a likelihood as those in power would have rather had the emperor alive to act as a leader instead of a bunch of different, fanatical, groups still waging war.
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I believe there were 3 bombs made at first two Atomic and one Hydrogen. They tested one of the Atomic in the Utah/Nevada desert. and dropped the other Atomic and Hydrogen bombs on Japan.
But at that point there were several more in production but no more available. They then threatened to drop another but didn't really have it.

John Wayne was in the Utah desert filming a motion picture when they tested the Atomic bomb above ground and he did get exposed to the radiation.
 
A lot of Japanese leaders escaped war crimes prosecution including the head honcho in Japan. He was no different then Hitler. If a third bomb had been dropped on the capital, those leaders would have been killed. The Japanese killed millions of civilians during their conquest of countries.

RELH
 
RELH said:
A lot of Japanese leaders escaped war crimes prosecution including the head honcho in Japan. He was no different then Hitler. If a third bomb had been dropped on the capital, those leaders would have been killed. The Japanese killed millions of civilians during their conquest of countries.

RELH
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I sometimes wonder about the claims of war crimes, considering the firebombing of Tokyo alone killed 100,000 innocent civilians. So one might wonder if burning thousands not involved in the fighting to death is any more humane than beheading some military personnel that MIGHT have been involved in the burning of those civilians or other killings.

I guess what I'm thinking is that it's a slippery slope to claim the high road when it comes to killing people by either side. What's that adage -- all's fair in love & war?
 
feddoc said:
The 'claims of war crimes' have been well documented.
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That wasn't my point. I believe the firebombing of Tokyo -- among many other such acts -- was also "well documented." No doubt BOTH sides in most wars could document incidents under the heading of "war crimes." Perhaps most people would consider the intentional slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians under that heading, regardless of who does it.
 
I believe that the United States thought that this was pay back for Pearl Harbor. In any case the Japanese were far from innocent and were ruthless in their treatment of civilians and prisoners of war. Just look what they did to the many comfort women that they took from their families and disgraced them.
My uncle was a prisoner of war and was never the same when he came back, what they did to him and other prisoners of war was one of the biggest war crimes of all.
 
My grandpa was piloting the nearest plane, as identified by the tail number.

B-24J_Liberator_44-40760_named_Black_Sheep_from_the_867th_BS_494th_BG.jpg


He also received the Distinguished Flying Cross for piloting his plane back to base after a portion of the wing was taken off by a kamikaze. He wrote in a letter home to his younger brother that he locked eyes with the kamikaze pilot as his wing was struck and realized they were both just scared young men trying to do their duty to their country and that he held no ill will. He received numerous Air Medals and other commendations for his bombing runs.

This is a picture his dad, my Great Grandfather, took as my grandpa flew over his home in Rawlins, WY early one morning on his way to war. He had gotten permission to take a small detour over his hometown. My Great Grandpa wrote on the back of the picture that it might be the last time he ever saw his son. As a father, I can't even imagine the fear and pain that would bring.

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It is so sad that we're losing the last of The Greatest Generation.
 
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DeerHunter53 said:
I believe that the United States thought that this was pay back for Pearl Harbor. In any case the Japanese were far from innocent and were ruthless in their treatment of civilians and prisoners of war. Just look what they did to the many comfort women that they took from their families and disgraced them.
My uncle was a prisoner of war and was never the same when he came back, what they did to him and other prisoners of war was one of the biggest war crimes of all.
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I agree. Sure it was payback..but how many "paybacks" were justified before it became disproportionate?? Hiroshima, Nagazaki & Tokyo greatly surpassed the loss of lives & destruction at Pearl Harbor. And if I recall, it was fewer than 75 victims who were civilians at PH, a far cry from the 100s of thousands of cilivilans killed in those three Japanese cities.

All of my family members, including my dad, fought in the European theater.
 
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Those Japanese civilians were not as innocent as many think, They supported what their military was doing including the war crimes. Japan also had a "cottage industry" where many of those civilians were making war material in their small cottage shops to support the war effort and military.
A vast majority of the civilians were training to conduct mass suicide attacks on the Americans if they landed a ground force on the mainland of Japan. We were dealing with a class of people that were fanatics and would fight to the death even if it was hopeless for them to win.
RELH
 
RELH said:
Those Japanese civilians were not as innocent as many think, They supported what their military was doing including the war crimes. Japan also had a "cottage industry" where many of those civilians were making war material in their small cottage shops to support the war effort and military.
A vast majority of the civilians were training to conduct mass suicide attacks on the Americans if they landed a ground force on the mainland of Japan. We were dealing with a class of people that were fanatics and would fight to the death even if it was hopeless for them to win.
RELH
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Oh come on! And no civilians in the U.S. was supporting the U.S. military killing the 'enemy' or "making war material?"

U.S civilians were making every weapon & war machine, including .30 M1carbines in factories that normally made typewriters, automotive parts & jukeboxes. Does it really make a difference if the civilians did the latter in large factories-- as in nearly every one of them in the U.S. -- or in "small cottage shops?"

So that's begs the question: Who wouldn't "fight to the death even if it was hopeless ..." if some loonies decided to invade the U.S.?
 
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OutdoorWriter said:
Oh come on! And no civilians in the U.S. was supporting the U.S. military killing the 'enemy' or "making war material?"

U.S civilians were making every weapon & war machine, including .30 M1carbines in factories that normally made typewriters, automotive parts & jukeboxes. Does it really make a difference if the civilians did the latter in large factories-- as in nearly every one of them in the U.S. -- or in "small cottage shops?"

So that's begs the question: Who wouldn't "fight to the death even if it was hopeless ..." if some loonies decided to invade the U.S.?
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Are you Japanese?
 
After Germany surrendered, my dad came home and was in Florida training for the invasion of Japan when we dropped the bombs. I'm good with it.

Another big factor in Japan's surrender was the fact that On August 8, 1945, the Soviet Union officially declares war on Japan, pouring more than 1 million Soviet soldiers into Japanese-occupied Manchuria, northeastern China, to take on the 700,000-strong Japanese army. ... Japan had not been too worried about the Soviet Union, so busy with the Germans on the Eastern front.

That was the determining factor that lead to Japan's surrender. They had no problem dying for their country, military or civilian. They would have used the bomb if they had it.

You have to admit, ever since WWII Japan has been a model citizen.
 
eelgrass said:
After Germany surrendered, my dad came home and was in Florida training for the invasion of Japan when we dropped the bombs. I'm good with it.

Another big factor in Japan's surrender was the fact that On August 8, 1945, the Soviet Union officially declares war on Japan, pouring more than 1 million Soviet soldiers into Japanese-occupied Manchuria, northeastern China, to take on the 700,000-strong Japanese army. ... Japan had not been too worried about the Soviet Union, so busy with the Germans on the Eastern front.

That was the determining factor that lead to Japan's surrender. They had no problem dying for their country, military or civilian. They would have used the bomb if they had it.

You have to admit, ever since WWII Japan has been a model citizen.
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They certainly were fast learners.......our treatment of them during the occupation and return of their country to them after reconstruction should still be admired by the entire world....no one else would have done the same.....
 
What the Japanese did in the Philippines and elsewhere was unspeakably horrific and truly evil. It gets overshadowed by the Holocaust but they were truly fanatical. My stepdad fought in the Pacific & the Philippines & my uncle in the European theatre. They brought it on themselves by starting and waging war with complete contempt for human life while violating virtually every rule of war. The accountability rests solely with the Japanese Imperial Govt. that rejected surrender over saving face/saving lives of their own people.

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OutdoorWriter said:
That wasn't my point. I believe the firebombing of Tokyo -- among many other such acts -- was also "well documented." No doubt BOTH sides in most wars could document incidents under the heading of "war crimes." Perhaps most people would consider the intentional slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians under that heading, regardless of who does it.
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No need to both underline and bold your word.

You used the word claims and it wasn't by accident.

I think it was an attempt to trivialize their war crimes.
 
Brushcreek, at the very least be honest. The question about heritage was 100% a personal attack! It implied that: 1) Outdoorwriter was not loyal to America 2) someone with Japanese heritage is not a real American 3) questioning the morality of actions done by the US is disloyal to America. The list could go on.
Outdoorwriter logically explored the morality of our actions and pointed out the weakness and hypocrisy of certain arguments. Logic and morality are quintessential American values, don’t dismiss them with a personal attack that you don’t even have the courage to stand behind!
 
bonepicker said:
Brushcreek, at the very least be honest. The question about heritage was 100% a personal attack! It implied that: 1) Outdoorwriter was not loyal to America 2) someone with Japanese heritage is not a real American 3) questioning the morality of actions done by the US is disloyal to America. The list could go on.
Outdoorwriter logically explored the morality of our actions and pointed out the weakness and hypocrisy of certain arguments. Logic and morality are quintessential American values, don’t dismiss them with a personal attack that you don’t even have the courage to stand behind!
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Well let's ask ODW if the US did the right thing by bombing Japan. Would like a yes or no answer then a response. Just curious...
 
feddoc said:
No need to both underline and bold your word.

You used the word claims and it wasn't by accident.

I think it was an attempt to trivialize their war crimes.
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Not at all. Just pointing out that the lines between what are and what aren't war crimes is sometimes a little crooked.
 
Them BASTARDS Got Just What They Deserved!

That Emperor Thought He Was Perty Bad!

He Had To See The Damage With His Own Eyes Before Throwing The Towel In!

I'll Give Them One Credit!

They Changed Their Tune in a Quick F'N Hurry!

And I Don't Think They've Screwed With The Eagle Since!
 
OutdoorWriter said:
Not at all. Just pointing out that the lines between what are and what aren't war crimes is sometimes a little crooked.
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LOL, ok , if you say so. The end result was there as I said.


Maybe try again with different words.
 
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Outdoor Writer I am not criticizing your opinions the fire bombing was a tough card that was played. Yes there is a difference in making war munitions in factories and making them in people's place of residence if you don't know the difference then I am not going to be the one to tell you, talk to the soldiers that have been fighting the war in Afghanistan against a militant group that hides behind its citizen's.
But what the Japanese did to the pepole of Philippines and the pepole of China only showed what they would have did to all that they was able to reign over.
Make no mistake about it the Shintoism was every bit as evil as the Nazies. The only difference is the Emperor gave orders to kill all indiscriminately the Nazies just killed thoes that was different than them.
It took a Bomb so powerful it made them question God. When family and friends was evaporated into air, when the image of those you knew was of skeletons as if they had been dead for centuries. It not only changed minds it changed the way pepole believed.
 
This argument is interesting....but...the reality is you'll never win a war without killing the civilians till their government surrenders....
 
Nobo
bonepicker said:
Brushcreek, at the very least be honest. The question about heritage was 100% a personal attack! It implied that: 1) Outdoorwriter was not loyal to America 2) someone with Japanese heritage is not a real American 3) questioning the morality of actions done by the US is disloyal to America. The list could go on.
Outdoorwriter logically explored the morality of our actions and pointed out the weakness and hypocrisy of certain arguments. Logic and morality are quintessential American values, don’t dismiss them with a personal attack that you don’t even have the courage to stand behind!
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Nobody asked you Francis , you certainly have no way to know what my intentions were.

outdoor writer I apologize if I offended you, it was not intentional
 
When I think about the atrocities of war I often think about a history professor that told us to win a war you have to make it more painful on your enemy to fight than to surrender. That's it.

I think America has tried to take the high road in recent wars and I think the results speak for themselves. We're not "winning" wars like we used to. It's been a long time since we saw an unconditional surrender.

I sometimes think of a scene from Swordfish where Gabriel talks about how they defeat terrorists. I also think about Kaiser Soze in The Usual Suspects and how he showed his enemy what he was willing to do to stay in power. Sadly, I think they may both have truth to them.

Videos may have NSFW language...



 
One of the most heroic and honorable deeds America has done started on D-Day 1944. A foot note to that is that 60,000 French civilians died in the first two months, caught up in the crossfire. If you're going to go to war, go to war. Bombs and artillery shells don't care where they land or who dies.
 
Is that "No" you are not going to answer the "yes r no question" or is it you sayin "no" the U.S. should not have dropped the two atomic bombs on Japan.
RELH
 
Homer said:
This argument is interesting....but...the reality is you'll never win a war without killing the civilians till their government surrenders....
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If you kill the fathers, brothers, uncles and nephews of the mothers, daughters and children, of any nation, you can expect the mothers, daughters and the children to respond by teaching and preaching to their fathers, brother, sons and children to kill you.

That includes, Americans, British, Canadian, German, Italian, Australian, Japanese, Chinese, Irainian, Iraq, Souix, Apache, Comanche, etc, etc, etc.

If you think you can kill all the men and their women won’t fight back......with what ever tools they have at their disposal, you may not understand human nature the way I do.

This quarrel with the Islamic nations and their 1500 year old ideology is not just coming from the men. Check what their women are teaching their children for a minute. Who are most of the suicide bombers......men or women and children?

My father in law was flown to Tokyo, by the Japanese, to be honored for his human treatment of Japanese Officers he and his band of brothers captured in while they were bathing in a jungle pool, some where in the Pacific Island. The Japanese begged him to accept a job in a major electricis company and move his family to Japanese. He graciously declined. He had bayonet wounds all over his legs from being overrun while he was sleeping, he killed dozens, in multiple hand to hand fights, hundreds with flame throwers and fully automatic 12 gauge shoot guns, removed heads with piano wires to keep Garrison and Compound guards from screaming out if he’d used a knife. He was in jungles and on the front lines so long his companions, that were not as deligent as others, socks stuck to the flesh on their feet.

Until the day he died he would scream out from nightmares, and nobody, I mean nobody, wife or child, touched him when he was asleep.

He certainly wasn’t the only one. Thousands on both sides told similar experience. War is madness, the most insane way you can imagine.

The point being...... my father in law never regretted for on second of his life the bombing of the Japanese cities like we did. If it would have require more bombs he would have gladly volunteered to do it himself. He knew what it would take and would have done it two years previously if he could have, and this was a man who loved ever person he ever met, Black, White, Yellow and Red.

I don’t care what some committee in Geneva says, if a monster like these bastards goes to war, woman and child are going to die, right along with their men. It’s that or live under brutal slavery, until your children, in some future generation rise up and kill their children.

That’s my story, I’m sticking to it.
 
Unfortunately, very unfortunately, it never easy or maybe even at all possible, to judge the actions of previous generations, even generations that are fairly recent.

Time and place, knowledge or the lack therefore, are nearly impossible to comprehend. Situations are far more consequent than we think.

We definitely need to learn from the past, but I think we should all be a little careful about how the i’s got dotted and the t’s got crossed.

Old grudges have long life expectancies if we’re not pretty willing to move on. Some of them go back to Abraham, for hell sake.
 
2lumpy said:
Unfortunately, very unfortunately, it never easy or maybe even at all possible, to judge the actions of previous generations, even generations that are fairly recent.

Time and place, knowledge or the lack therefore, are nearly impossible to comprehend. Situations are far more consequent than we think.

We definitely need to learn from the past, but I think we should all be a little careful about how the i’s got dotted and the t’s got crossed.

Old grudges have long life expectancies if we’re not pretty willing to move on. Some of them go back to Abraham, for hell sake.
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Oh come on Lumpy...Lincoln wasn't that long ago.....
 
Could we have won without the bomb? Sure. Japan was defeated in the Pacific so we would have to invade Japan. We would have lost a lot of men and Japan would have lost even more civilians than were lost with the bombs. It made no sense to not use them, IMO.

We didn't know it at the time that Russia was going to help. Russia would have gladly killed Japanese civilians all year long.

You can question the morality of the bombs but you can't argue the outcome. They saved lives. There was no sanitary alternative.

Japanese soldiers were still holding out into the 1960's.
 
That helped, no doubt. They were also indebted to us under the lend lease program. Germany would have won in Russia if not for that.
 
Could we have won without the bomb? Sure. Japan was defeated in the Pacific so we would have to invade Japan. We would have lost a lot of men and Japan would have lost even more civilians than were lost with the bombs. It made no sense to not use them, IMO.
eelgrass said:
We didn't know it at the time that Russia was going to help. Russia would have gladly killed Japanese civilians all year long.

You can question the morality of the bombs but you can't argue the outcome. They saved lives. There was no sanitary alternative.

Japanese soldiers were still holding out into the 1960's.
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The American infantry was sick to their stomach when they were told to prepare for door to door combat with main land Japan. So we’re their Generals, after what they had been through on the Islands. And you can imagine how hard the Japanese civilians would have fought to protect their god figures at home.

For folks that believe the American soldier should been “required” to kill the Japanese people, door by fricking door, rather than with a bomb worried the hell out of me, if we ever find ourselves in another similar conflict. Imagine it was you or your children/grandchildren drafted to go door to door killing hand to hand. Think about it. It is most likely the most humane thing we did for the overall civilian population of Japan.
 
2lumpy said:
If you kill the fathers, brothers, uncles and nephews of the mothers, daughters and children, of any nation, you can expect the mothers, daughters and the children to respond by teaching and preaching to their fathers, brother, sons and children to kill you.

That includes, Americans, British, Canadian, German, Italian, Australian, Japanese, Chinese, Irainian, Iraq, Souix, Apache, Comanche, etc, etc, etc.

If you think you can kill all the men and their women won’t fight back......with what ever tools they have at their disposal, you may not understand human nature the way I do.

This quarrel with the Islamic nations and their 1500 year old ideology is not just coming from the men. Check what their women are teaching their children for a minute. Who are most of the suicide bombers......men or women and children?

My father in law was flown to Tokyo, by the Japanese, to be honored for his human treatment of Japanese Officers he and his band of brothers captured in while they were bathing in a jungle pool, some where in the Pacific Island. The Japanese begged him to accept a job in a major electricis company and move his family to Japanese. He graciously declined. He had bayonet wounds all over his legs from being overrun while he was sleeping, he killed dozens, in multiple hand to hand fights, hundreds with flame throwers and fully automatic 12 gauge shoot guns, removed heads with piano wires to keep Garrison and Compound guards from screaming out if he’d used a knife. He was in jungles and on the front lines so long his companions, that were not as deligent as others, socks stuck to the flesh on their feet.

Until the day he died he would scream out from nightmares, and nobody, I mean nobody, wife or child, touched him when he was asleep.

He certainly wasn’t the only one. Thousands on both sides told similar experience. War is madness, the most insane way you can imagine.

The point being...... my father in law never regretted for on second of his life the bombing of the Japanese cities like we did. If it would have require more bombs he would have gladly volunteered to do it himself. He knew what it would take and would have done it two years previously if he could have, and this was a man who loved ever person he ever met, Black, White, Yellow and Red.

I don’t care what some committee in Geneva says, if a monster like these bastards goes to war, woman and child are going to die, right along with their men. It’s that or live under brutal slavery, until your children, in some future generation rise up and kill their children.

That’s my story, I’m sticking to it.
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We had two cousins from our tiny home town of about 100 who survived the Bataan Death March.

They were the same way. There were civilians on that march as well.

They, the cousins, spoke little of their experiences, and then it was only to those who came back from SEA.
 
If all this history doesn’t blow your mind enough...... pray you don’t live long enough to see how the Chinese settles the score with the Japanese, if we ever give them opportunity.

We were forced by the Japanese to liberate China. Now China and Russia hate us. Japan is an extremely important Allie , against China. Not sure what’s going on between Russia and Germany right now but........ nothing would surprise me in Europe....... AGAIN!

Sort all that out and get back to me. Thanks.
 
2lumpy said:
If all this history doesn’t blow your mind enough...... pray you don’t live long enough to see how the Chinese settles the score with the Japanese, if we ever give them opportunity.

We were forced by the Japanese to liberate China. Now China and Russia hate us. Japan is an extremely important Allie , against China. Not sure what’s going on between Russia and Germany right now but........ nothing would surprise me in Europe....... AGAIN!

Sort all that out and get back to me. Thanks.
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The rape of Nanking will not be forgotten by the chinese.


The Rape of Nanking | December 13, 1937 | HISTORY

During the Sino-Japanese War, Nanking, the capital of China, falls to Japanese forces, and the Chinese government flees to Hankow, further inland along the Yangtze River. To break the spirit of Chinese resistance, Japanese General Matsui Iwane ordered that the city of Nanking be destroyed. Much...
www.history.com www.history.com


1937: The Rape of Nanking (Nanjing) – Alliance for Human Research Protection

ahrp.org ahrp.org

Buried alive>>>

buriedalive.jpg
 
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A lot of people who are young enough not to have experienced a world war think mankind is now civilized. Boy are they in for a surprise if they live long enough.
 
eelgrass said:
Could we have won without the bomb? Sure. Japan was defeated in the Pacific so we would have to invade Japan. We would have lost a lot of men and Japan would have lost even more civilians than were lost with the bombs. It made no sense to not use them, IMO.

We didn't know it at the time that Russia was going to help. Russia would have gladly killed Japanese civilians all year long.

You can question the morality of the bombs but you can't argue the outcome. They saved lives. There was no sanitary alternative.

Japanese soldiers were still holding out into the 1960's.
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I believe I'm in good company saying the atomic bombs were unnecessary. Most of the top brass in both the Army & Navy, including Truman's Chief of Staff felt the same way. A few that include many household names of the who's who of generals & admirals thought using them was reprehensible & immoral.

Any planned invasion of mainland Japan was months away. The Japanese war machine was already devastated. They didn't even have enough fuel for the ships because of the blockade. And nearly all of the major cities had been leveled by conventional bombs. Further use of the conventional bombs would have worked the same "magic" without the effects of killing & maiming thousands more AFTER the war had ended.

The vast destruction wreaked by the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the loss of 135,000 people made little impact on the Japanese military. However, the Soviet invasion of Manchuria on 9 August – fulfilling a promise of the Yalta conference in February – changed their minds.
 
OutdoorWriter said:
I believe I'm in good company saying the atomic bombs were unnecessary. Most of the top brass in both the Army & Navy, including Truman's Chief of Staff felt the same way. A few that include many household names of the who's who of generals & admirals thought using them was reprehensible & immoral.

Any planned invasion of mainland Japan was months away. The Japanese war machine was already devastated. They didn't even have enough fuel for the ships because of the blockade. And nearly all of the major cities had been leveled by conventional bombs. Further use of the conventional bombs would have worked the same "magic" without the effects of killing & maiming thousands more AFTER the war had ended.

The vast destruction wreaked by the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the loss of 135,000 people made little impact on the Japanese military. However, the Soviet invasion of Manchuria on 9 August – fulfilling a promise of the Yalta conference in February – changed their minds.
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ODW seems as we are well dug in, I’ll move on to more common isses, like you’re a hell of a great cook, journalist and hunting/fishing advocate. I’d keep a light on for ya anytime you find yourself headed north on 89.

All the best today!!
 
2lumpy said:
ODW seems as we are well dug in, I’ll move on to more common isses, like you’re a hell of a great cook, journalist and hunting/fishing advocate. I’d keep a light on for ya anytime you find yourself headed north on 89.

All the best today!!
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Wherever you're headed, have a great weekend!


peace.gif
 
ODW I am glad you were not in command of the decision to drop the bombs as I would have probably lost 3 uncles that were serving in the pacific campaigns.
I knew a Japanese gentleman who was a teenager in Japan during the later years of the war. He told me that the Japanese gov. and military leaders were willing to sacrifice their civilians if a invasion occurred. He and many thousands of other Japanese civilians were training with bamboo spears to commit banzai attacks on the American troops when they land. He even admitted that more lives would have been lost on both sides then what was lost in the two bombings.
Russia only declared war on Japan after we dropped the bombs, not before, as they were assured Japan would be defeated in a short time and they wanted to grab land held by the Japanese that they would not give back. The Japanese leaders knew this and did not want to deal with the Russians on their homeland soil.
I for one do not think the Russians would have declared war on Japan if the bombs had not been dropped as you wish. They wanted a sure thing before they acted.
RELH
 
All I remember is back in the early 1960's I saw a guy riding a Honda 50 motorcycle around town. He had a big sign on the back "BOYCOT JAPAN"

I thought that was odd.
 
RELH said:
ODW I am glad you were not in command of the decision to drop the bombs as I would have probably lost 3 uncles that were serving in the pacific campaigns.
I knew a Japanese gentleman who was a teenager in Japan during the later years of the war. He told me that the Japanese gov. and military leaders were willing to sacrifice their civilians if a invasion occurred. He and many thousands of other Japanese civilians were training with bamboo spears to commit banzai attacks on the American troops when they land. He even admitted that more lives would have been lost on both sides then what was lost in the two bombings.
Russia only declared war on Japan after we dropped the bombs, not before, as they were assured Japan would be defeated in a short time and they wanted to grab land held by the Japanese that they would not give back. The Japanese leaders knew this and did not want to deal with the Russians on their homeland soil.
I for one do not think the Russians would have declared war on Japan if the bombs had not been dropped as you wish. They wanted a sure thing before they acted.
RELH
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As I said in the message, the invasion that might have led to your uncles' demise would have never occurred because it was planned for NOVEMBER, more than two months after Russia declared war on Aug. 9. There was no way Japan was prepared to continue on TWO different fronts, especially when they had so little to do so other than "bamboo spears."

If you ever get a chance read some of the books that were written well after the war ended that reveal most of the backroom communications, Truman's diary entries and actual notes from the discussions that took place among the principles.

No doubt you'll likely be glad some of our finest militray folks weren't making the decision, as well.

"The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender."
--Admiral William Leahy, head of the US-UK chiefs of staff.

--General Dwight D. Eisenhower's reaction when told by secretary of war Henry Stimson that the atomic bomb would be used, “I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon.” At Potsdam, he said “The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.”

--General Douglas MacArthur thought the use of atomic bombs was inexcusable. He later wrote to former President Hoover that if Truman had followed Hoover’s “wise and statesmanlike” advice to modify its surrender terms and tell the Japanese they could keep their emperor, “the Japanese would have accepted it and gladly I have no doubt.”

Also on record saying the bombs were either militarily unnecessary, morally reprehensible, or both were General Henry “Hap” Arnold; Admirals Chester Nimitz, Ernest King, and William Halsey. So that's seven great military leaders all voicing the same thing.

As for Truman, at the Potsdam meeting in July, Stalin told him the Soviets would be there on schedule. Truman's diary entry that day was, “He’ll be in the Jap War on August 15. Fini Japs when that comes about.” The next day he told his wife, “We’ll end the war a year sooner now, and think of the kids who won’t be killed!” This was prior to him okaying the bombs.

Sadly, his secretary of state James Byrnes pretty much ruined a real quick surrender by erasing a key caveat from the peace agreement that would have allowed Hirohito to keep his title--
a prime condition the Japanese sought.

Also, I'm a bit foggy on this, but if I recall Oppenheimer -- the daddy of the atomic bomb -- resigned after seeing the devastation they caused in Japan. Then he later railed against producing a hydrogen bomb.

So now anyone who wishes can have the last word. As Lumpy said, we have...
deadhorse.gif

​
And I need to go cook dinner.
 
Warnings went unheeded.

Did the Japanese warn the Chinese? The Filipinos?
Did the Japanese warn the US about Pearl Harbor?





www.pbs.org

Leaflets Warning Japanese of Atomic Bomb | American Experience | PBS

Leaflets dropped on cities in Japan warning civilians about the atomic bomb, dropped c. August 6, 1945.
www.pbs.org

TO THE JAPANESE PEOPLE:
America asks that you take immediate heed of what we say on this leaflet.

We are in possession of the most destructive explosion ever devised by man. A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29s can carry on a single mission. This awful fact is one for you to ponder and we solemnly assure you it is grimly accurate.

We have just begun to use this weapon against your homeland. If you still have any doubt, make inquiry as to what happened to Hiroshima when just one atomic bomb fell on that city.

Before using this bomb to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, we ask that you now petition the Emperor to end the war. Our president has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrender. We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better and peace-loving Japan.

You should take steps now to cease military resistance. Otherwise, we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all our other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war.
 
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Rape of Nanking yields this data.

An estimated 40,000 to over 300,000 Chinese were killed.[11][12] Since most Japanese military records on the killings were kept secret or destroyed shortly after the surrender of Japan in 1945, historians have been unable to accurately estimate the death toll of the massacre. In 1946, the International Military Tribunal for the Far East in Tokyo estimated that over 200,000 Chinese were killed in the massacre.[13] China's official estimate is "more than 300,000" dead, based on the evaluation of China's own Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal in 1947. The death toll has been contested by scholars since at least the 1980s.[3][14]
 
Emperor Hirohito addressed the Japanese people by radio on 14 August 1945.

"Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.

Such being the case, how are we to save the millions of our subjects, nor to atone ourselves before the hallowed spirits of our imperial ancestors? This is the reason why we have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the powers."

 
If we hadn't dropped it.....and the war ended in a few months anyway.....someone would have dropped one since then......it showed the world what not to do.....and I am proud that the US showed the world....
 
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Outdoor Writer
So we should have accepted Japan's terms of surrender and allowed (I quote) a war criminal to stay as Emperor.
But you believe we should have condemned the United States military leaders as war criminals.
Some of the same military leaders you use saying the atomic bomb was wrong to have been used, are some of same military leaders that directed the fire bombing of Japan.
ODW I am having a tough time trying to understand your thinking.
 
I’m a Mormon, someone else is a Catholic, yet we both read the same New and Old Testiments. Go figure.

These discussions are always based in our individual confirmation bias’ We all read the same history books yet based on our individual bias’ we all support our opinions by confirming our bias from the same literature and our personal experiences.

It’s a healthy conversation if we can somehow keep it civil. I learn a lot about things I’m unaware of and I actually looked forward to it until someone tried to shove it down my constricted throat.
 
Evil rules when good men do nothing, a paraphrase. The United States had to stop the evil ....PERIOD. For ODW to cast blemishes on our nation is a sign of the times, my heart aches for the mindset of so many in our nation. My heart is saddened by those Truely innocent lost in the nuclear bombs, however we must recognize that many of those were 100% in favor of the Japanese emporer and supported his continued acts of evil. ODW , your not as smart as you think you are if you don't recognize the tremendous force for GOOD that the USA has been in the history of the world.
 
Does That Mean You're Gonna Quit Buying/Driving Duramax's?



Homer said:
My great uncle Julian spent four years in the pacific fighting the Japanese.......at 70 years old he found out his Ford Ranger had a Japanese engine in it.....never drove it again
Click to expand...
 
Servehim said:
Evil rules when good men do nothing, a paraphrase. The United States had to stop the evil ....PERIOD. For ODW to cast blemishes on our nation is a sign of the times, my heart aches for the mindset of so many in our nation. My heart is saddened by those Truely innocent lost in the nuclear bombs, however we must recognize that many of those were 100% in favor of the Japanese emporer and supported his continued acts of evil. ODW , your not as smart as you think you are if you don't recognize the tremendous force for GOOD that the USA has been in the history of the world.
Click to expand...
Probably not in your best interest to determine his "smartness".
You're
 
If you plan on a trip to Japan to see some of the early Japanese architecture don't bother going to Hiroshima.
 
JB1975 said:
Probably not in your best interest to determine his "smartness".
You're
Click to expand...
The sentence you highlighted stopped short of my following comment sir. Been taking notes from CNN? Revisionist history of the amazing GOOD the USA has done in fighting against evil , stand up for the oppressed who couldn't fight themselves....peoples that aren't smart enough to see the Truth are a pox our nation..Done
 
Servehim said:
The sentence you highlighted stopped short of my following comment sir. Been taking notes from CNN? Revisionist history of the amazing GOOD the USA has done in fighting against evil , stand up for the oppressed who couldn't fight themselves....peoples that aren't smart enough to see the Truth are a pox our nation..Done
Click to expand...
you used "your" improperly at the most inopportune time.....lol

"ODW , your not as smart as you think you are if you don't recognize the tremendous force for GOOD that the USA has been in the history of the world."
 

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