Time to end points

[hossblur]

Talked to a young guy at supply yard.

Like everyone he is worrying about his job. Supposed to be getting married this summer.

I'm sick of virus so we talked hunting.

He made an interesting point.

He found it pretty ironic that the same old guys who scream bloody murder about dumping the point schemes to make things fair for his generation, are the same ones demanding that same generation give up weddings, prime, graduations, to protect the old guys.

Seems like a pretty fair point.

 

[middlefork]

Good to see that you are not too busy to stop and BS for awhile.

I really don't have a big position in the points fight unless 7 LE Deer points is a threat.

But it is really getting to the point that I would rather contract Covid-19 and take my chances (over 65 and underlying issues) Than listen to more trivial BS about who is or is not entitled to hunt and how.

 

[Tristate]

Sounds like apples and oranges to me. Not saying he doesn't have a legitimate gripe but his logic seems flawed.

 

[Dave]

So we’re now comparing a virus that has the potential to kill an enormous number of citizens to a point system and how unfair it might be.... unbelievable

 

[scopenstalk]

Hunting privileges vs human life. Are you freaking kidding me?

 

[ridgetops]

I've really tried to tone back on any rude comments this year but that young man is truly an idiot and he needs to get his priorities straight. A little perspective wouldn't hurt either.

 

[Bluehair]

I always thought points started as a way to provide residents preference (or at least undiluted probability of) in their local draws.

The original premise still applies. Not my fault it became a retirement benefit.

 

[elkassassin]

I Said from before the Beginning it wasn't gonna be a fair System!

But Once & again!

Nobody would Listen!

 

[Tristate]

Elk,

Most people switch off their ears once they hear the word "fair". We all realize that no two people have the same view of what "fair" is.

 

[Swartz]

I"m 63 and have never seen a fair playing field no matter what the circumstances have been. Adapt and overcome or live with the cards we are dealt.

 

[cbat]

I Said from before the Beginning it wasn't gonna be a fair System!

But Once & again!

Nobody would Listen!

Bess how do we fix it ? I have double digit points in multiple states . And at the rate point creep is going I will be a very old man before I draw any of them. Stop awarding points from this point forward and let us work through current point holders ? Scrap all points and tell everyone sorry this isn't working ? Buy our points back ? Set aside hunts for max point holders until we work through all point current point holders ?

 

[buckhorn]

The way it’s looking out there we may need a point system and tag draws for toilet paper purchase.
There are obviously a lot of people out there hoarding up more than they really need.

 

[broomd]

Points? Sure, because the systems all work so well! lol.

Here in Idaho the system is about as fair as it can be, but even here the system has flaws.
The same non-residents that all have destroyed thier home-state sytems will move here and ruin this one as well.

 

[scopenstalk]

Gonna be honest dude, If and when I move to idaho I won’t ask for anything to change

 

[hossblur]

Hunting privileges vs human life. Are you freaking kidding me?

The young guys think the same just in reverse.

We could do a search of this topic, and pull 1000's of posts from older guys sitting on points who go out of there way to bash the entitled, flat brimmers, etc, etc, etc.

Guess points ain't so important now?

 

[scopenstalk]

The young guys think the same just in reverse.

We could do a search of this topic, and pull 1000's of posts from older guys sitting on points who go out of there way to bash the entitled, flat brimmers, etc, etc, etc.

Guess points ain't so important now?

..............really dude? Guess what? I am a young guy. No I don’t follow that thought process for even a second. Tags and points vs problems affecting society as a whole????? Hoss if you agree with that complete nonsense you just sunk to tristate levels bro.

 

[lostinOregon]

I am always amazed at folks who want things to be fair. Life isn’t fair. Never will be. Everyone is dealt a different hand. You can complain or do what you can do under the circumstances. This mindset is why socialism is so popular with our younger generation. You are not going to make the world fair and your never going to root out evil.

Rich

 

[hossblur]

..............really dude? Guess what? I am a young guy. No I don’t follow that thought process for even a second. Tags and points vs problems affecting society as a whole????? Hoss if you agree with that complete nonsense you just sunk to tristate levels bro.

Either you've never read any post in here, or you are willfully ignorant.

Points mattered 2 months ago EXACTLY as much as they do today.

YET 2 months ago dudes screamed bloody murder at the mention of points being dumped.

Do I agree that old dudes losing points vs young dudes losing houses, weddings, college are the same? Nope.

Was asking that points go away to level opportunity a big deal? Go do a search. You tell me.

 

[hossblur]

I am always amazed at folks who want things to be fair. Life isn’t fair. Never will be. Everyone is dealt a different hand. You can complain or do what you can do under the circumstances. This mindset is why socialism is so popular with our younger generation. You are not going to make the world fair and your never going to root out evil.

Rich

How many gov checks are we all gonna cash?

Myself included.

If you ACTUALLY believe what you just wrote, send yours back.

It ain't the 20year olds in Congress, or statehouse right now, handing them out.

 

[Deerlove]

Yes end all points, just send me all my $ back.

 

[money]

New Mexico has the very best system in my opinion. No points! Everyone has the same chance! I might actually get lucky and draw a sheep tag someday in this state. I can't say that about any other state. That's how it should be in every state! I get to apply for a couple hard to draw tags, then with my third choice if i so choose i can apply for an easier tag to draw and still get to hunt without costing me any points. That's the most fair way to do it. people who only want top end units can stick to their guns and only apply for tops end units. and then the rest of the people can apply for the easier to draw tags and get to actually hunt. I am a Hunter, not a bonus point collector, so if i can hunt more i'm all for it.

It would piss a ton of people off, but if every state copied New Mexico I think it would improve things greatly. The points game has gotten out of hand and I would love to see them all go away. Points also cause a sense of entitlement among hunters. They wait 20 years to cash in their points and when they finally do they feel like they deserve an animal more than the next guy. The animals belong to all of us and we should all be on a level playing field every year.

I buy and build points in multiple states each year and have plans to cash them in someday, but if they took them all away I wouldn't complain one bit. That really is the most fair way to do it, where everyone gets the same shot at the tags and then it's all up to luck.

But who knows, maybe when i'm old and can't hunt anymore i'll start a bonus point museum where i can display them for all to see. then others can pass them on in their wills to the museum when they die so that the collection can continue to grow. admission to the museum would be pretty affordable too.... it would only cost you a small application fee to get in. And if you come on a day we are closed you can use your point guard and come in free the next time you are in town.... i think i'm on to something big here.

 

[lostinOregon]

How many gov checks are we all gonna cash?

Myself included.

If you ACTUALLY believe what you just wrote, send yours back.

It ain't the 20year olds in Congress, or statehouse right now, handing them out.
[/QUOTE

What does cashing a government check have to do with this? You lost me

 

[hossblur]

"The younger folks favor socialism"

 

[scopenstalk]

"He found it pretty ironic that the same old guys who scream bloody murder about dumping the point schemes to make things fair for his generation, are the same ones demanding that same generation give up weddings, prime, graduations, to protect the old guys. "

We are comparing a effing points system to human life. A points system. The logic in this statement means the following to me " Old guys won't change the point system which I think is unfair, therefore I don't think we should try and avoid infecting the whole population because it's an inconvenience on my life" Unless this statement meant something different and I misunderstood? The vast majority that are being "protected" by what the government has asked don't have hunter education cards.

 

[deerkiller]

The state can buy my points back if they’d like. At $250 a point. I feel that price is more than fair. Some of the points I’ve earned have been paid for close to 15 years now. There’s guys who have paid for some of their points close to 30 years now. Applying for tags and building points has been a long term investment for me and thousands of other hunters. They came up with this failing system. If they want to get out of this mess, they are gonna pay for it. It’s called interest.

 

[scopenstalk]

The state can buy my points back if they’d like. At $250 a point. I feel that price is more than fair. Some of the points I’ve earned have been paid for close to 15 years now. There’s guys who have paid for some of their points close to 30 years now. Applying for tags and building points has been a long term investment for me and thousands of other hunters. They came up with this failing system. If they want to get out of this mess, they are gonna pay for it. It’s called interest.

No kidding.

Also I have very few points so I almost have no dog in this fight. I am 34 years old and I will never draw a premium tag. I don't like the points system but I am never going to compare the importance of a henry tag to the importance of someones career or someones life.

IF ANYONE has a gripe about what's being done, it's people like deer killer who's livelihoods are being affected. But the points system being a point of complaint about trying to protect peoples lives????? come on.

 

[lostinOregon]

Hoss,

I didn’t ask for any handout from the government and yes I am against socialism.

 

[hossblur]

No kidding.

Also I have very few points so I almost have no dog in this fight. I am 34 years old and I will never draw a premium tag. I don't like the points system but I am never going to compare the importance of a henry tag to the importance of someones career or someones life.

IF ANYONE has a gripe about what's being done, it's people like deer killer who's livelihoods are being affected. But the points system being a point of complaint about trying to protect peoples lives????? come on.

First calm down.

Im a self employed contractor. Right after my hospitality friends, I'm next to be sacrificed.

If 46. So I'm in the middle.

When you get home, and I'll assume you have one, and I'll assume you have kids, and a wife. Look at that picture of your wedding day. Look at that picture of your kids day of birth.

A friend of mines daughter got married yesterday. 6 people were there.

Babies are being born today, with grandparents stuck at home.

Kids are graduating college.

All the beautiful, wonderful, milestones that happen to you when your younger. The things that make life worth living.

GONE.

Now, your 25, you come on this forum, and continually take a thrashing for flat brine, greedy, entitled, blah, blah, blah.

I don't blame the kid for letting off steam.
I have every damn day this week.

I say in my truck Monday in the driveway and bawled like a baby.

But ya. Point systems are bullshit, created by guys who knew full well it would favor them because of their birth date.

Now as we look at stats thst say 99.6 %of the flat brimmers will have no issue, while those issues go up with age, I get his point.

You should simmer down. If your so wound that you can't see anecdotal comments, your wound too tight.

Points don't mean **** when your looking at death, or financial collapse.

The points didnt change. Your attitude did.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey cbat!

I Don't know of a 'Fair' Fix!

Hossy will Claim I'm an Old Bastard!

He's Right!

I'm Not Giving My Points up!

I've Got a Good 1/3 of a Lifetime Invested!

I'm Not Starting Over!

I Ain't Selling My Points back to the DWR!

The Money Part Means Nothing!

Bess how do we fix it ? I have double digit points in multiple states . And at the rate point creep is going I will be a very old man before I draw any of them. Stop awarding points from this point forward and let us work through current point holders ? Scrap all points and tell everyone sorry this isn't working ? Buy our points back ? Set aside hunts for max point holders until we work through all point current point holders ?

 

[JakeH]

My own personal opinion on the matter, They need to Cap all points at where they are now, Don't give out another one. For the next 5 years 75% of tags go to max points guys, next 5 years after that its 50%. after that go to a 25% go to max until they have worked though the whole system. Will probably take years but this seems fair to me on all sides.

Or hell even if they just capped it where it is now and continued doing the 50% to max forever they that would be OK as well.

You are allowed a 2nd-4th choice on the application, Points would not matter on those and if you drew a 2nd - 4th choice you would not lose your points. All 1st choice apps would process before any 2nd choice options would be addressed.

I do think the point system is broken, this would fix it as well as give everybody an opportunity to hunt.

This is pointed at the Utah system, but feel it would work in all the states in some variation that currently have a point system.

 

[scopenstalk]

First calm down.

Im a self employed contractor. Right after my hospitality friends, I'm next to be sacrificed.

If 46. So I'm in the middle.

When you get home, and I'll assume you have one, and I'll assume you have kids, and a wife. Look at that picture of your wedding day. Look at that picture of your kids day of birth.

A friend of mines daughter got married yesterday. 6 people were there.

Babies are being born today, with grandparents stuck at home.

Kids are graduating college.

All the beautiful, wonderful, milestones that happen to you when your younger. The things that make life worth living.

GONE.

Now, your 25, you come on this forum, and continually take a thrashing for flat brine, greedy, entitled, blah, blah, blah.

I don't blame the kid for letting off steam.
I have every damn day this week.

I say in my truck Monday in the driveway and bawled like a baby.

But ya. Point systems are bullshit, created by guys who knew full well it would favor them because of their birth date.

Now as we look at stats thst say 99.6 %of the flat brimmers will have no issue, while those issues go up with age, I get his point.

You should simmer down. If your so wound that you can't see anecdotal comments, your wound too tight.

Points don't mean **** when your looking at death, or financial collapse.

The points didnt change. Your attitude did.

I am enduring plenty of the problems you mentioned the flat brimmers are with what is going on. I am a part of the orginal flat brim generation dude.

Your attitude regarding what that young man said is pretty disturbing to me. I am going to leave this conversation at that.

PS: I sincerely hope your business isn't affected by what's going on.

 

[Bluehair]

Its like the take a number thing at the DMV. Every year dozens of guys line up and get theirs, and watch as they call one guys number.

There are more applicants than animals. The demand side of the equation is the easiest to manipulate so you will see more pay to play. This charging to apply is what will save our wildlife management bureaucracies.

I always liked raffles.

 

[buckhorn]

I like Jake’s idea.
At this point in time I would probably benefit from that proposal.
I don’t mind the points Systems.
I’m with elkassassin. I don’t want to give them up or sell them.

 

[ridgetops]

I hate the the idea of a pure random draw for everything. There would be a chance of never getting to hunt, ever on a LE. At least with bonus points you can hunt a good LE unit ever 10-15 years and with preference points, ever two or three years on the harder draw units in Utah. With a random draw, you could go every 5 -10 years without drawing a general tag with some bad luck.

 

[roadrunner]

So we’re now comparing a virus that has the potential to kill an enormous number of citizens.

Yeah, that's what they say...

Virus became a real threat once they started looking for it and testing for it. Strange how all of a sudden, as of yesterday afternoon, there were 43 positive tests for COVID-19 in NM in just a weeks time. Impossible for a virus to lay in wait and then "spring its trap" when no one was looking, orchestrating a world wide surprise attack and catching everyone off guard. Everyone getting sick all at once, those susceptible dying all at once. Or, is it that it's a "necessary" thing to report now?

It's contagious because of its survival rate giving ample time to infect. There is no vaccine, although the world would be months months ahead on developing one had this been the real issue, or at least reported as one like it should've been.

Never mind about any of this - Go To Work!

 

[sticksender]

Point systems have evolved to something totally different than the original purpose. The original intentions were fine......reward long-term repeat applicants with a slightly better chance to draw over time. Not surprising that this benefit was slowly lost over the years by an ever-burgeoning applicant pool. For the most desired licenses, there can now be hundreds to thousands of applicants per every one license. And this effect trended hyperbolic, meaning that as people gain more and more points, they become less and less likely to "burn" them on lower-demand hunts, which in turn meant that more and more points were required to draw the most desired hunts.

A normal reaction based only on logic, would be to judge the point system a failure and scrap it for something else. But this truth has been avoided, because in the meantime a new reason to continue point systems arose.....money. These systems have become a booming revenue stream for some state game departments. The proof for this can be seen in several nearby states where brazen gouging of point fees has occurred. So far, it's been confined mainly to NR's. But in some cases like Colorado even residents are getting nailed. We can find annual point fees of 50 to 100 dollar per species now being charged to NR & res for the highest demand animals. The other benefit they see in these systems is applicant retention. Once a guy is "on the hook" with a few points, he feels pressure to not drop out, lest he lose out to others who stay the course. Resistance by the game depts to eliminating these revenue streams will be strong. To keep this golden goose producing, they'll simply claim it's "unfair" to pull out the rug out from under the long term guys.

In spite of the above, the big issue that gets overlooked is that no matter what draw system is used.....random, bonus, preference, point-squaring, etc, etc.....there's still an unavoidable dilemma in place. That dilemma is the huge number of people who want to hunt the best areas, yet only a few licenses will ever be available. No draw system design can fix that.

 

[elkassassin]

I hate the the idea of a pure random draw for everything. There would be a chance of never getting to hunt, ever on a LE. At least with bonus points you can hunt a good LE unit ever 10-15 years and with preference points, ever two or three years on the harder draw units in Utah. With a random draw, you could go every 5 -10 years without drawing a general tag with some bad luck.

Or Have Luck Like I Have With Points,Right Ridge?

 

[deerkiller]

There needs to be a preference point system in place for general deer and antlerless. Worst case scenario, you go 3 years in between tags. Sure that’s longer than people want to wait, but you are still promised a tag at some point. If you go straight random lottery, there will be people who will NEVER draw another tag in their life. And there will be nothing they can do about it. That’s not ‘fair’. If you wanna axe the points system for LE and OIL, so be it. But again, points give you a better chance in the long run at a permit. It will never be guaranteed, but it can and will help eventually.

people need to understand there are more places to apply for than the San Juan and boulder for elk and Henry’s and pauns for deer. There’s also more seasons out there than just the rifle hunts. If you want to cut down your time in between tags, pick up another weapon type and learn to hunt with that. Archery will always have better draw odds. quit limiting yourself and broaden your horizons. There’s so much opportunity out there for everyone if they are willing to put in a little effort on their part

 

[ridgetops]

Or Have Luck Like I Have With Points,Right Ridge?

The thing is if you wanted to switch units,cthere are several you can hunt this year with your points. If it's a random draw. You might be waiting another 30 years to hunt even the Book Cliff's.

 

[csa_ap_hill]

yeah, I'm of the no point system type and agree. it turns decent people into the zombie apocalypse types that do anything to get them.
Back in the day when there were a no point system people stood the same chances year in and year out and were a hell of a lot friendlier. Now with snitch to earn points system one can't walk two feet without being watched by someone yearning to earn points.
The more people do to help the elite the more people get pissed over this and leave and we lose our own political pull.
The elite one these sites may be perfectly fine with all this crap but I'm not.
I've seen the sport change over the years to an elitist sport who make $50-$60k each year who don't give a rats ass that prices go up and the working poor can't afford nor enjoy what they use to. Yes, I'm kind of ranting and umbrellaing a lot of different topics but people aren't friendly no more not like they used to. Yes! you still get a friendly person but more and more people just do the minimum and give you mediocre service.
Hint:
Stop pissing people off leave them alone stop supporting anti-smoking crap and or being a hypocrite on gun and hunting issues.
Stop being elitists who only want the woods to themselves and care less who you have to regulate against to get it.
So yeah I'm against this point system for all the reasons above.

 

[deerkiller]

yeah, I'm of the no point system type and agree. it turns decent people into the zombie apocalypse types that do anything to get them.
Back in the day when there were a no point system people stood the same chances year in and year out and were a hell of a lot friendlier. Now with snitch to earn points system one can't walk two feet without being watched by someone yearning to earn points.
The more people do to help the elite the more people get pissed over this and leave and we lose our own political pull.
The elite one these sites may be perfectly fine with all this crap but I'm not.
I've seen the sport change over the years to an elitist sport who make $50-$60k each year who don't give a rats ass that prices go up and the working poor can't afford nor enjoy what they use to. Yes, I'm kind of ranting and umbrellaing a lot of different topics but people aren't friendly no more not like they used to. Yes! you still get a friendly person but more and more people just do the minimum and give you mediocre service.
Hint:
Stop pissing people off leave them alone stop supporting anti-smoking crap and or being a hypocrite on gun and hunting issues.
Stop being elitists who only want the woods to themselves and care less who you have to regulate against to get it.
So yeah I'm against this point system for all the reasons above.

WTF are you talking about?

 

[Hunt_the_West]

Points systems are money makers....

 

[buckhorn]

yeah, I'm of the no point system type and agree. it turns decent people into the zombie apocalypse types that do anything to get them.
Back in the day when there were a no point system people stood the same chances year in and year out and were a hell of a lot friendlier. Now with snitch to earn points system one can't walk two feet without being watched by someone yearning to earn points.
The more people do to help the elite the more people get pissed over this and leave and we lose our own political pull.
The elite one these sites may be perfectly fine with all this crap but I'm not.
I've seen the sport change over the years to an elitist sport who make $50-$60k each year who don't give a rats ass that prices go up and the working poor can't afford nor enjoy what they use to. Yes, I'm kind of ranting and umbrellaing a lot of different topics but people aren't friendly no more not like they used to. Yes! you still get a friendly person but more and more people just do the minimum and give you mediocre service.
Hint:
Stop pissing people off leave them alone stop supporting anti-smoking crap and or being a hypocrite on gun and hunting issues.
Stop being elitists who only want the woods to themselves and care less who you have to regulate against to get it.
So yeah I'm against this point system for all the reasons above.

It appears that you are of the crazy weirdo type! Go have a cigarette and relax!

 

[Bluehair]

Holy cow.....point shaming. We've come a long way.

 

[ss13]

I’ve provided my opinion on the topic before. I don’t like point systems the way they are set up. I’d be fine with them being eliminated all together, but there are financial implications to that. Maybe one day we’ll get to a point where the system will be addressed, but unfortunately not today. I’m thinking 20 years down the road when every sheep, moose and goat pool has max point holders with 50 or more points.

I like the New Mexico system the best, minus the tag allocation. Put in for hard to draw tags with the first two choices and a better odds tag with the third.

A wait period of 2 or 3 years on units with low odds (0-10%) would be interesting too.

 

[Sako76]

Point systems suck! The costs are unreal, especially if you want to buy points in multiple states for multiple animals. Having to buy a hunting license to be eligible to participate in the draw also sucks, especially when that license is totally useless if you don't draw.

I've never demanded that weddings and college graduations be cancelled, I don't know where that came from. I've been to college graduation ceremonies, they are overrated! The graduation parties are not!

 

[excaliber]

I'd like to see the ages of those here who are against point systems. You can always apply for Idaho and NM and you have the same odds as everyone else to draw a tag.

 

[ss13]

I'd like to see the ages of those here who are against point systems. You can always apply for Idaho and NM and you have the same odds as everyone else to draw a tag.

Im 34. Have been putting in for 9 years. I don’t think age matters if your looking at the situation with clear vision. As I said, in 20 years there WILL be point holders with 40-50 points in some states. Yes, they invested the time and money over those years, but the problem is bigger than them.

 

[deerkiller]

Im 34. Have been putting in for 9 years. I don’t think age matters if your looking at the situation with clear vision. As I said, in 20 years there WILL be point holders with 40-50 points in some states. Yes, they invested the time and money over those years, but the problem is bigger than them.

If you were invested longer than 9 years, you’d have a different point of view. You clearly understand that with 9 points you’re sitting in no mans land as far as drawing odds go and you know it. If you had, 18+ points built up for multiple species, like you should at the age of 34, you’d be singing a different tune

 

[notdonhunting]

I'd like to see the ages of those here who are against point systems. You can always apply for Idaho and NM and you have the same odds as everyone else to draw a tag.

Or how many of these guys that are against point system are guys that have been luck enough to draw out with low bonus points and they have drawn out for one or two once in a lifetime's and bolth LE elk and deer. Now they don't feel luck anymore.

 

[Homer]

Just stop giving any new points to anyone..today...in 30 years they'll all be gone and younger hunters will start catching up starting tomorrow.....

 

[ss13]

If you were invested longer than 9 years, you’d have a different point of view. You clearly understand that with 9 points you’re sitting in no mans land as far as drawing odds go and you know it. If you had, 18+ points built up for multiple species, like you should at the age of 34, you’d be singing a different tune

That’s a lot of assuming. I can draw several good, not great tags with my 9 pts. I’d give them up for a system that actually works.

Like I said, if anyone looks at the situation with clear eyes, they’d be able to see the system doesn’t work. I hold no grudge with anyone over points. The system was broken from the beginning concerning some species (moose, sheep and goats, OIL deer/elk units).

Here is a question for you. Are you alright with several species/ units taking 30-50 years to draw? If you got into the game in 1995 instead of 1987 would your tune be different?

Let’s be honest, States still offer preference points because they make money. Nothing more, nothing less. With simple math anyone can calculate draw odds 10, 15 or 20 years out. The system is broken, period.

 

[desperatehills]

I won't give my points up any faster than I will give up my guns. I didn't invent the system but I have played by the rules. I am not expecting anything more than the opportunity to hunt new places that I would never see without a tag in my pocket. The system suits me fine because the places I will get to hunt, the line is shorter than my lifetime.

 

[csa_ap_hill]

WTF are you talking about?

you're a millennial then? or a democrat then? If you've been around longer than a few years and know how things were before you were born and that what you experienced isn't the mainstay of things experienced then you'd get it.
So why in the F don't you get it or even understand the whole thing I've said is it perhaps you support this crap and don't see the forest from the trees then? Or you do but just need to make some lame point to try and grand stand on nothing? Me thinks its the latter and just trying to troll...

 

[deerkiller]

That’s a lot of assuming. I can draw several good, not great tags with my 9 pts. I’d give them up for a system that actually works.

Like I said, if anyone looks at the situation with clear eyes, they’d be able to see the system doesn’t work. I hold no grudge with anyone over points. The system was broken from the beginning concerning some species (moose, sheep and goats, OIL deer/elk units).

Here is a question for you. Are you alright with several species/ units taking 30-50 years to draw? If you got into the game in 1995 instead of 1987 would your tune be different?

Let’s be honest, States still offer preference points because they make money. Nothing more, nothing less. With simple math anyone can calculate draw odds 10, 15 or 20 years out. The system is broken, period.

I got into the “game” in 2004. Since then I’ve drawn several LE tags, had a general deer tag for my preferred unit every year and will draw a OIL tag within the next couple years. Not to mention the many antlerless tags I’ve drawn as well. I’m totally fine with waiting my turn to draw more LE and OIL tags. In the meantime I’ll keep hunting General and OTC stuff waiting on my turn again for the better tags. The system is broken in your eyes. Mine, it’s not. Every state has a different “system”. If you don’t like utahs, go play another states game. After awhile you’ll find flaws and get tired with it as well

 

[deerkiller]

you're a millennial then? or a democrat then? If you've been around longer than a few years and know how things were before you were born and that what you experienced isn't the mainstay of things experienced then you'd get it.
So why in the F don't you get it or even understand the whole thing I've said is it perhaps you support this crap and don't see the forest from the trees then? Or you do but just need to make some lame point to try and grand stand on nothing? Me thinks its the latter and just trying to troll...

How the hell do i “snitch” to get points? Only way you can earn them in Utah, and that’s the state we are talking about in this thread, is to apply every year and gain another point if unsuccessful in the draw. You can’t snitch on anyone and get extra points. Sounds like a democratic approach to getting your way when things aren’t in your favor. Look beyond the forest you’re talking about and see the reality of your world. I’m assuming you’ll be disappointed when it all starts to come into focus and realize you aren’t living in fantasy land

 

[ss13]

I got into the “game” in 2004. Since then I’ve drawn several LE tags, had a general deer tag for my preferred unit every year and will draw a OIL tag within the next couple years. Not to mention the many antlerless tags I’ve drawn as well. I’m totally fine with waiting my turn to draw more LE and OIL tags. In the meantime I’ll keep hunting General and OTC stuff waiting on my turn again for the better tags. The system is broken in your eyes. Mine, it’s not. Every state has a different “system”. If you don’t like utahs, go play another states game. After awhile you’ll find flaws and get tired with it as well

I agree with you that I’ll continue to hunt when and where I can. I’ll continue to buy points and apply for the lotteries too. I’ll continue to do it until I can no longer hunt out west or the system changes. I most likely won’t change or sway your opinion, but I do think conversation is good. I want to be very clear, I don’t need to hunt the quote on quote top units, but I do want the opportunity to hunt 20 years from now. My concern is 5, 10, 15 years from now and beyond. Those OTC and general tags most likely won’t exist. In addition , those low point Colorado tags will no longer be low points. What then?

FWIW I think New Mexico is as close to perfect as possible in a draw system. The only thing I’d like to see changed is not allowing a successful applicant within a high demand unit to apply for that same unit the following year. A definite downside is you can’t plan year to year on knowing for sure you’ll have a tag in a specific unit.

There are lots of ways States could get creative with draw options. In my opinion, hands down the worst system is Nevada. It is literally a pyramid scheme. The State sells points on the vision of everyone having a chance to draw any tag, including the top units. Yes, mathematically possible, but literally improbable. Powerball odds. The State does not have enough game to support and recycle the applicants through the system.

I just really think it’s immoral/reckless selling a product that most will never be able to cash in. I’m talking the big three now. Anyone getting into the point race now, or even in the last 12-14 years will almost certainly never draw, or if they do they’ll be 70 years old. Deer and elk are heading down that path too in some state’s.

 

[ss13]

Lundell, what’s so funny? Feel free to contribute to the conversation. Maybe you can provide a opinion or view that would be constructive to this thread.....

 

[Deerlove]

Go hunt ID there's no pts, and hunting license is $160 this year and soon tobe $200. Ps that's JUST to apply.

 

[ss13]

Only issue is they make you choose between species when you apply for the LE. But yes, I’d pay $200 for the license if I could apply for all species. $200 for a 1-3% chance, no.

They do have general tags, which is nice. With what residents are proposing those may be gone in a few years though. Many feel that NR are encroaching on their hunting.

 

[csa_ap_hill]

How the hell do i “snitch” to get points? Only way you can earn them in Utah, and that’s the state we are talking about in this thread, is to apply every year and gain another point if unsuccessful in the draw. You can’t snitch on anyone and get extra points. Sounds like a democratic approach to getting your way when things aren’t in your favor. Look beyond the forest you’re talking about and see the reality of your world. I’m assuming you’ll be disappointed when it all starts to come into focus and realize you aren’t living in fantasy land

Meh! Nothing I said was of a democrat outlook completely the opposite.
Mainly just an old man ranting.
I just don't like the points system in any state. weather Utah, Oregon, Washington or other...
The old days of just applying and take your chances were better.

 

[excaliber]

NR are encroaching on our hunting. It seems like we're hunting in WA state with all the Washington plates. Why do you think there's so much talk about changes for NR hunters here?

If you want to hunt here in ID you have to pay. Choose either Deer, Elk or Pronghorn or Moose, Sheep etc. Hunt OTC if you don't draw.
Go to AZ and hunt OTC deer. Put in for NM if you don't want in on Bonus pt or Pref point systems.

I actually like Nevada's system the best. It's the best managed state I've lived/hunted in. It's all about demand. Excellent animal quality from excellent management equals super high demand.
I gladly donate to NV every year for a minute chance at an Elk tag while trying to draw for deer and Pronghorn.

 

[deerkiller]

I just really think it’s immoral/reckless selling a product that most will never be able to cash in. I’m talking the big three now. Anyone getting into the point race now, or even in the last 12-14 years will almost certainly never draw, or if they do they’ll be 70 years old. Deer and elk are heading down that path too in some state’s.

I disagree 100%. You don’t need a pile of points to draw good tags today. 2/3 bison tags drawn in my immediate family were drawn with 4 points or less. 8 LE tags were drawn with 1-3 points and a pile with 10 or less. It’s anyone’s game and anyone can draw if they apply

 

[deerkiller]

Meh! Nothing I said was of a democrat outlook completely the opposite.
Mainly just an old man ranting.
I just don't like the points system in any state. weather Utah, Oregon, Washington or other...
The old days of just applying and take your chances were better.

Don’t skirt the subject. Tell me how TF I get points for “snitching”! Or Are you not ready to admit you don’t know what you are talking about?

 

[ss13]

I disagree 100%. You don’t need a pile of points to draw good tags today. 2/3 bison tags drawn in my immediate family were drawn with 4 points or less. 8 LE tags were drawn with 1-3 points and a pile with 10 or less. It’s anyone’s game and anyone can draw if they apply

Trying to have a civil conversation. I clearly said big three, meaning sheep, moose and goats. If you have less than 15 pts as a non resident you may never draw unless you hit the lottery and draw random.

Yes, many States, especially for residents, have many units that can be drawn with less than 10 points, deer and elk. Currently, as in this year. What I’m saying is point creep is real and is certainly happening. States are actively changing quotas and restricting non resident allocation. The point system will be an issue, no question, as the years pass.

I’m glad you and your family have drawn tags. As the years pass, especially 10-20 down the road, you or your kids may not be so lucky with a point system. Even residents of Colorado are seeing creep. Its not a terrible issue now, but as the population continues to rise so will point requirements. Those 2nd season tags may take 5-10 points to draw in the near future. Especially with the cheap preference point cost in Colorado.

I can name at least a dozen, maybe even 3 or 4 dozen, units that will take over 30 point to draw in as little as 20 years. That’s for deer and elk. Like I said, the big three will be more like 40-50pts. That is a problem.

I already know the next question you’ll ask. Look at the draw odds yourself and do exponential math on applicants, vs points, vs tags available. I’m not going to do that for you.

Guess I was hoping for a civil debate. Seems like this topic is like politics, everyone runs party line. I guess I just don’t understand the entitlement. Yes, you and I have points, but they hold no value and the game CAN change at any time. Heck, Arizona clearly states a disclaimer about points being worthless when you buy them. Do people really like the point system, or do they not want it to disappear because they have points and are “owed” a tag?

What State do you live in and where do you apply? How many points in each state?

 

[ss13]

I disagree 100%. You don’t need a pile of points to draw good tags today. 2/3 bison tags drawn in my immediate family were drawn with 4 points or less. 8 LE tags were drawn with 1-3 points and a pile with 10 or less. It’s anyone’s game and anyone can draw if they apply

I’ll come right out and ask. What do you like about the point system? Why is it superior to any other system?

Also, did you family draw those bison tags with points or was it random draw? How many points? Bull or cow? What state?

 

[Bluehair]

The State sells points on the vision of everyone having a chance to draw any tag, including the top units. Yes, mathematically possible, but literally improbable. Powerball odds. The State does not have enough game to support and recycle the applicants through the system.

I just really think it’s immoral/reckless selling a product that most will never be able to cash in.

Nothing will change until the departments figure out how to replace the revenue from selling a lottery ticket. Money for nothin.

Some people are ok with paying to have a better chance for that OIL tag, however slight.

 

[deerkiller]

I’ll come right out and ask. What do you like about the point system? Why is it superior to any other system?

Also, did you family draw those bison tags with points or was it random draw? How many points? Bull or cow? What state?

Well if they had less than 5 points, then logical reasoning would lead a guy to believe those tags were pulled in a random draw, right? ? Max points was nearly 5x that amount at that time.

my bad. I was under the impression this conversation involved multiple people exchanging different points of view over a civil discussion. I wasn’t aware this was one where you are right and everyone else is wrong. My apologies

?

 

[5point]

If we were to give up points then all states need to do it, and no favoritism to residents or non resident then maybe the draws would be fair. As far as I'm concerned the animals belong to all who can legally hunt them.

 

[ss13]

Well if they had less than 5 points, then logical reasoning would lead a guy to believe those tags were pulled in a random draw, right? ? Max points was nearly 5x that amount at that time.

my bad. I was under the impression this conversation involved multiple people exchanging different points of view over a civil discussion. I wasn’t aware this was one where you are right and everyone else is wrong. My apologies

?

Thanks for the reply. With the information you provided through your posts, I’d assume you are a resident of Utah and are somewhere between 28 and 30 years old.

So, why do you prefer a point system? What benefits does it provide over other systems? Just curious, you’ve made you’re stance very clear, I’m just wondering why you have that preference?

Your post about bison tags proves my point. That tag takes over 20 years to draw for residents. Yes, you could hit the lottery, but of not, your SOL. 20 years from now that same tag will take 30-40 points to draw.

Anyways, we won’t most likely ever agree. I just hope you answer my question about why you prefer points, or in this case the Utah system. Maybe your response will open my eyes to an explanation why that system is better.

 

[ss13]

If we were to give up points then all states need to do it, and no favoritism to residents or non resident then maybe the draws would be fair. As far as I'm concerned the animals belong to all who can legally hunt them.

I don’t think the draws will be or should be fair pertaining to residents vs non residents. Resident should get a majority of the tags. No question about that in my mind. I just want non residents to be respected and acknowledged for the funding we provide to those specific States. Non resident tags foot the bill in most cases.

I think most states should get rid of points. The only State that maybe, and that’s a big maybe, has the wildlife to support points is Colorado. But even so, Colorado is losing ground to point creep too. Eventually, probably 10 years or so, creep will be out of control in that State too. I could see Colorado transitioning to the Wyoming or Arizona system if creep continues.

In my opinion, Colorado would be amazing with the New Mexico system though. Shoot the moon with your first, 3rd season with your second and 2nd season with the last. If you aren’t taking long shots you’d get a tag every year.

 

[Longun]

I Said from before the Beginning it wasn't gonna be a fair System!

But Once & again!

Nobody would Listen!

Geeze Elk.....you are such a bubble burster...I'm going to the bath tub to make some more...

 

[desperatehills]

en·ti·tle·ment /inˈtīdlmənt,enˈtīdlmənt/

noun
noun: entitlement; plural noun: entitlements

1. the fact of having a right to something.
   "full entitlement to fees and maintenance should be offered"
   
   Similar:
   right
   
   
   prerogative
   
   
   claim
   
   
   title
   
   
   license
   
   
   permission
   
   
   dispensation
   
   
   privilege
   
   
   liberty
   
   • the amount to which a person has a right.
     "annual leave entitlement"
     
     Similar:
     allowance
     
     
     allocation
     
     
     allotment
     
     
     quota
     
     
     ration
     
     
     grant
     
     
     limit
     
     
   • the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
     "no wonder your kids have a sense of entitlement"
   • US
     a government program that provides benefits to any individual meeting certain eligibility requirements.
     "Social Security, Medicare, and other entitlements are going broke"

I know we are having a civil discussion but please don't use the word entitlement when referring to my points. I have paid for my licenses and applications for the opportunity to someday draw a tag.

 

[ss13]

en·ti·tle·ment /inˈtīdlmənt,enˈtīdlmənt/

noun
noun: entitlement; plural noun: entitlements

1. the fact of having a right to something.
   "full entitlement to fees and maintenance should be offered"
   
   Similar:
   right
   
   
   prerogative
   
   
   claim
   
   
   title
   
   
   license
   
   
   permission
   
   
   dispensation
   
   
   privilege
   
   
   liberty
   • the amount to which a person has a right.
     "annual leave entitlement"
     
     Similar:
     allowance
     
     
     allocation
     
     
     allotment
     
     
     quota
     
     
     ration
     
     
     grant
     
     
     limit
     
     
   • the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.
     "no wonder your kids have a sense of entitlement"
   • US
     a government program that provides benefits to any individual meeting certain eligibility requirements.
     "Social Security, Medicare, and other entitlements are going broke"

I know we are having a civil discussion but please don't use the word entitlement when referring to my points. I have paid for my licenses and applications for the opportunity to someday draw a tag.

the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.

The bold above is exactly my point. Preference points make people feel entitled. As I said, Arizona clearly provides a disclaimer that you need to acknowledge reading and agree to before purchasing preference points. They hold no value. If you die you don't get refunded. If you fail to put in for X amount of years you lose points.

Admittedly, the entitled discussion is a bit off topic though. It was simply brought up as a reason or explanation why some don't want a different system. I still would love to hear why its a better system than other options.

 

[excaliber]

Maybe you don't get it but a Preference point system is setup to award those who have the most skin in the game a better shot at a tag. Are they entitled? You sound bitter.
You pay your money, build points and hopefully you get in the bonus pool and draw your tag.

If you don't want to play the game don't apply. It's really that simple.

 

[ss13]

Nope, I get the premise of point systems and why they originally were created. Some of them have evolved over the years in an attempt to fix issues I pointed out above. None are perfect, which is why someone created this thread as a place to discuss the topic. One thing I know for certain is that everything in this world constantly changes and evolves. With that understanding it would be ignorant to think the system wont change in the future. That change will happen to benefit the masses, not the 1%. Not sure when that'll be, maybe next year, maybe 50 years from now.

I personally am building points in 3 states and will continue doing so until the system is changed, I die, stop hunting, or point creep makes it impossible to draw a tag. None of those things have happened yet.

But you are correct, I refuse to play the game with the big three in any state. Even if I had 10 or more points, Id never draw a tag before I died. Lottery only for those species.

 

[deerkiller]

I still would love to hear why its a better system than other options.

Because as residents, at some point, on many units, for many different seasons, with many different species types and many different weapon types, you are GUARANTEED a tag with the current points system Utah has set up. For general, OIL, LE and antlerless hunts, at a certain point level, you will draw a tag IF you aren’t looking for a San Juan early rifle bull tag or a Henry’s rifle buck tag. At certain point levels, based upon unit management tactics, herd conditions and “trophy” quality, you can draw great tags. Are you gonna kill the next B&C world record bull on the wasatch? Probably not. But you can draw that archery tag with 5 points currently. If you went to a straight lottery system, you could have guys apply 20 years in a row and still not draw. With the point system, they could have drawn twice in the time and probably a couple other mid tier pronghorn units during the waiting periods on elk.

that’s fine you hate points. People who don’t know how to play the game usually do. I love the points system. Yes it sucks most of the time, but in my eyes at some point I know I’ll have an opportunity to go hunting on OIL, GS and LE tags. I can say for certain, had there not been a point system in place and it was straight lottery my entire application history, I would have not had at least a general deer tag in my pocket every year. And I wouldn’t have had nearly as many antlerless tags in my pocket either.

 

[ss13]

Because as residents, at some point, on many units, for many different seasons, with many different species types and many different weapon types, you are GUARANTEED a tag with the current points system Utah has set up. For general, OIL, LE and antlerless hunts, at a certain point level, you will draw a tag IF you aren’t looking for a San Juan early rifle bull tag or a Henry’s rifle buck tag. At certain point levels, based upon unit management tactics, herd conditions and “trophy” quality, you can draw great tags. Are you gonna kill the next B&C world record bull on the wasatch? Probably not. But you can draw that archery tag with 5 points currently. If you went to a straight lottery system, you could have guys apply 20 years in a row and still not draw. With the point system, they could have drawn twice in the time and probably a couple other mid tier pronghorn units during the waiting periods on elk.

that’s fine you hate points. People who don’t know how to play the game usually do. I love the points system. Yes it sucks most of the time, but in my eyes at some point I know I’ll have an opportunity to go hunting on OIL, GS and LE tags. I can say for certain, had there not been a point system in place and it was straight lottery my entire application history, I would have not had at least a general deer tag in my pocket every year. And I wouldn’t have had nearly as many antlerless tags in my pocket either.

I appreciate your well thought out response. The situation you describe I can understand why you favor your Utah's application process. Its a bummer you wont ever have a realistic shot at hunting those top areas though. Out of curiosity, do you or people your age even bother putting in for sheep, moose? I guess as a resident the application cost wouldn't be a huge it, so why not.... Also, in Utah can residents get the General deer tags with 0 points?

Its not that I hate points. I've done well in the draws and have always had a tag in my pocket. I just don't think the system is sustainable. After reading your response it seems that for residents in some states, points are still working. I know for certain that non resident creep is through the roof and not sustainable. This is especially true in low tag states or for the big three. Just my 2 cents, based off of observations in draw odds.

Anyways, its been a good debate and I appreciate a residents point of view on the topic, especially a younger one. I may end up posting more on this topic, but if I don't speak directly to you, good luck this fall deerkiller.

 

[deerkiller]

I appreciate your well thought out response. The situation you describe I can understand why you favor your Utah's application process. Its a bummer you wont ever have a realistic shot at hunting those top areas though. Out of curiosity, do you or people your age even bother putting in for sheep, moose? I guess as a resident the application cost wouldn't be a huge it, so why not.... Also, in Utah can residents get the General deer tags with 0 points?

I have already had my OIL moose tag for Utah, I’m 0-3 years away from my mtn goat tag, I have no desire to shoot a sheep, so bison is really all that’s last on my list. I figure I can draw a cow tag in the next 20 years, I’ll apply for the archery hunts, again increasing my draw odds and see what happens. If I draw within the next 15 years, I’ll mentor the tag to my son and give him that opportunity if he wants it. I will agree, unless you have max points currently, moose is a lost cause in Utah unless you get lucky. But every year, there’s just as many lucky guys drawing moose tags as there are guys drawing with max points. You never know when your number will get pulled.

most res gen deer tags can be drawn with an average of 2 points. Again, weapon and season date play into that. It takes 3+ points average to draw a rifle tag for the units I hunt. 0-1 will always pull an archery tag.... for now. There’s perks to being a bowhunter, in all states. Utah is one of the better ones to be a bowhunter in my opinion

 

[Zeke]

For those who are against points, over 50% of the tags are drawn random in Utah.
How’s that working out for you so far?

Doubling you chances won’t accomplish what you want, and we know that’s a tag.

Stay the course, us older guys either draw or die and y’all get to move up. Or get in here and have a hoss moment and pitch a fit about it.

Zeke

 

[lostinOregon]

If a person chooses to hold out for the best of the best hunts in a point system your making a choice to spend 20-30 years waiting to draw. I use draw systems to my advantage and get tags every year that gives me a chance to hunt where big bucks live. If I apply for the paunsagant in Utah and 101,128,130 in Wyoming, the strip in AZ I’m won’t be hunting much. That’s a choice, not a problem with point systems. Research and find opportunities. It really is your choice.

Rich

 

[utfireman]

Spot on Rich..... I find it comical when someone says they have double digit points and can’t hunt because of point creep or unfair treatment. Really Karen????? That’s no ones fault but their own! The individual is making the choice to delay their hunt.

OL’ Bess is a prime example, he could draw dang near any tag in Utah, but his personal choice is committed to one specific tag. He could have drawn a tag years ago and now be looking at another tag, but not any old pisscutter will do for the cagey cat.

Don't hold out for the best tags in a state and then cry foul when it takes 20 plus years to draw

 

[buckhorn]

I am OK with point systems. Especially in Nevada as a resident.

I also lived in Idaho for 10 years and applied for all their controlled hunts and have since moved back to Nevada.
I did get the Idaho lifetime hunting license when I was there so I am still entered into the resident draw. However in all the many years I have applied for Idaho (which has no points system) both as a resident and a non-resident I have drawn only 2 controlled deer tags.
In the years my son and I have applied for Nevada (which has a point system) both as a resident and nonresident we have drawn about a dozen deer tags 2 bull elk tags and 3 buck pronghorn tags. All in quality high demand units.
As far as Colorado goes my son and I have both built points and he drew a unit 44 deer tag and I drew a unit 551 deer tag in the preference points system.
In Utah my son and I have both been building Limited entry points and general season preference points. We are at the point now where we’re each going to draw a Paunsaugunt buck tag if not this year very soon.
We have enough Utah general season buck deer preference points to draw any unit in the state.
In my opinion based on my experience I think the states that have points Systems give you a better chance to eventually draw quality hunts than states like New Mexico and Idaho that are strictly random draws.
As it was stated above even states with points system such as Utah, Nevada and Arizona that have a good portion of their tags going in random draws still have as good of odds in the random as states with no points systems.

 

[ss13]

I am OK with point systems. Especially in Nevada as a resident.

I also lived in Idaho for 10 years and applied for all their controlled hunts and have since moved back to Nevada.
I did get the Idaho lifetime hunting license when I was there so I am still entered into the resident draw. However in all the many years I have applied for Idaho (which has no points system) both as a resident and a non-resident I have drawn only 2 controlled deer tags.
In the years my son and I have applied for Nevada (which has a point system) both as a resident and nonresident we have drawn about a dozen deer tags 2 bull elk tags and 3 buck pronghorn tags. All in quality high demand units.
As far as Colorado goes my son and I have both built points and he drew a unit 44 deer tag and I drew a unit 551 deer tag in the preference points system.
In Utah my son and I have both been building Limited entry points and general season preference points. We are at the point now where we’re each going to draw a Paunsaugunt buck tag if not this year very soon.
We have enough Utah general season buck deer preference points to draw any unit in the state.
In my opinion based on my experience I think the states that have points Systems give you a better chance to eventually draw quality hunts than states like New Mexico and Idaho that are strictly random draws.
As it was stated above even states with points system such as Utah, Nevada and Arizona that have a good portion of their tags going in random draws still have as good of odds in the random as states with no points systems.

That is a good strategy if you started 15 years ago. The pauns tag is going up at a rate of over 1 pt a year for non residents now. Unit 44 in CO is a 20 plus point unit now. Those will both be 30 plus point units in 10 years.

Yes you can hunt every year with points, I do it. You can even hunt OTC in some states. But using those as examples is like comparing apples to oranges. Those tags are unobtainable for anyone getting into the draw this year or any year after. Many more will be unobtainable 20 years down the road. Getting in on the ground floor is great, that’s for sure.

I can understand and appreciate deerkiller’s situation as he described. I guess looking at everyone’s response, to me, it seems like points are a non resident issue, not so much a resident issue. And with that, some non residents, especially those with 20 pts probably don’t seen an issue either. That’s more so because they are ahead of a curve that anyone getting in today will never overcome.

I do find the topic interesting and will dig deeper into draw stats because of it. It seems like residents for the most part are happy in Utah. I do know that residents in WY do not want points and generally like the system that they have now. That is quite interesting because it goes against what many of you from Utah are saying.

 

[deerkiller]

I do know that residents in WY do not want points and generally like the system that they have now. That is quite interesting because it goes against what many of you from Utah are saying.

That’s because wyoming residents can currently buy OTC tags for hunting opportunities that it’s taking non residents 6+ points to draw for their general hunts. There’s also way more game animals in Wyoming than Utah because of carrying capacity and way less humans living in Wyoming than Utah. Their random draw works well because of the supply demand ratio. You can plan on drawing a good goat tag every few years at the worst case scenario. I wouldn’t want a draw point system put in place either if I could buy a buck and bull tag at Walmart every year and go have the same quality of hunts that they do in those hunt areas.

 

[hossblur]

The state can buy my points back if they’d like. At $250 a point. I feel that price is more than fair. Some of the points I’ve earned have been paid for close to 15 years now. There’s guys who have paid for some of their points close to 30 years now. Applying for tags and building points has been a long term investment for me and thousands of other hunters. They came up with this failing system. If they want to get out of this mess, they are gonna pay for it. It’s called interest.

So should younger guys get more tags? AFTER all they paid more for a license tgan you did 30 years ago?

You PAID for an advantage in THAT YEARS DRAW. You got that advantage.

YOU GOT YOUR $10 WORTH

 

[ridgetops]

So should younger guys get more tags? AFTER all they paid more for a license tgan you did 30 years ago?

You PAID for an advantage in THAT YEARS DRAW. You got that advantage.

YOU GOT YOUR $10 WORTH

Do you like to argue just for the sake of arguing? I'm starting to wonder.

 

[deerkiller]

So should younger guys get more tags? AFTER all they paid more for a license tgan you did 30 years ago?

You PAID for an advantage in THAT YEARS DRAW. You got that advantage.

YOU GOT YOUR $10 WORTH

Should older guys get more tags?

 

[hossblur]

Do you like to argue just for the sake of arguing? I'm starting to wonder.

Just like to point out stupid chit like "I'll sell my points"

 

[deerkiller]

Just like to point out stupid chit like "I'll sell my points"

You’re good with giving away your valued currency for free, after you paid to earn it in the first place? If they determine it’s in everyone’s best interest to axe the points game, that’s fine. But I expect to be paid out on my investments that I’ve made over the year. I promise you’d find yourself in the vast minority thinking it’s dumb to sell points back to the state if that’s what it came down to.

do I want to sell them? Absolutely not. Like I’ve stated previously, they will guarantee me a tag at some point. But if they are going to be straight random draw down the road, everyone will expect to be bought out of the current system.

 

[excaliber]

 

[hossblur]

Should older guys get more tags?


They t

You’re good with giving away your valued currency for free, after you paid to earn it in the first place? If they determine it’s in everyone’s best interest to axe the points game, that’s fine. But I expect to be paid out on my investments that I’ve made over the year. I promise you’d find yourself in the vast minority thinking it’s dumb to sell points back to the state if that’s what it came down to.

do I want to sell them? Absolutely not. Like I’ve stated previously, they will guarantee me a tag at some point. But if they are going to be straight random draw down the road, everyone will expect to be bought out of the current system.

You got what you paid for. Extra chances in the drawing that year.

 

[deerkiller]

You got what you paid for. Extra chances in the drawing that year.

Really? What do you call preference points? They don’t give you “extra chances”. They hold your spot in line.

Bonus points do the same thing, WHILE giving you extra chances at drawing a random tag during your wait in line. I’m paying to reserve my spot in this line every year. If you expect me to leave this line you’ll either need to buy me out or wait for me to die. I’m very confident I’m not alone in saying that.

 

[ridgetops]

I like points. I most likely drew my ram tag with 4 points because one of those 5 numbers I had assigned to me was actually #1. I highly doubt I drew that number as my first draw number but most likely with one of the other 4 numbers I had allotted to me. If everyone had just has 1 number allotted to them, there would have been a far less likely chance I would have drawn that one tag. So keep the point system, at least for the residents.

 

[buckhorn]

This makes me laugh!

 

[deerkiller]

I like points. I most likely drew my ram tag with 4 points because one of those 5 numbers I had assigned to me was actually #1. I highly doubt I drew that number as my first draw number but most likely with one of the other 4 numbers I had allotted to me. If everyone had just has 1 number allotted to them, there would have been a far less likely chance I would have drawn that one tag. So keep the point system, at least for the residents.

I’ve found that those who oppose points are usually in the camp of A) non residents B) don’t have any points built up and only want a premium tag or nothing C) don’t understand how the draw works D) voted for Obama and Hillary, changes their gender as often as their change their underwear and life isn’t fair. Or E) all of the above

 

[hossblur]

Or they come into hunting where OIL is 0% lifetime.

LE is once in a lifetime.

I have 19 moose points. My odds are .052%


Mist people who favor points simply can't do math. They get excited seeing a number change every year, but can't figure out so did everyone else's.

Do the math. Points are a scheme by the state to make money.

 

[deerkiller]

Or they come into hunting where OIL is 0% lifetime.

LE is once in a lifetime.

I have 19 moose points. My odds are .052%


Mist people who favor points simply can't do math. They get excited seeing a number change every year, but can't figure out so did everyone else's.

Do the math. Points are a scheme by the state to make money.

sorry to hear you were one of the dumb ones to invest in a OIL species that usually has a down hill trend in population numbers. sounds like the only one struggling to do the math was you

 

[hossblur]

sorry to hear you were one of the dumb ones to invest in a OIL species that usually has a down hill trend in population numbers. sounds like the only one struggling to do the math was you

Has nothing to do with dumb. Moose are cool.

But they are no different than any other species. The pile of dudes at the top just happened to be of hunting age the year points started. If you were 13 that year, you will never draw.

You could have a twin born at 11:59 on Dec 31 and one born Jan 1 at 12:01, and one twin would be a max holder and one a year behind. That's the stupidity of a points system.

Yaaaaa I got a point. So did the other 2500 dudes in front of you for those 20 tags. Meaning you gained zero. In My case I gained .02% chance this year. Which is probably average across OIL.
The only "chance" you have would be pulling a random tag.

Unless your the top holder, your putting in hoping to draw random tags. But somehow you think "someday" you will be max holder. You won't. And if you turned 12 this year. There is ZERO point to try.


Idaho and new Mexico haven't seemed to lost hunters by doing lotto draws.

 

[hossblur]

I like points. I most likely drew my ram tag with 4 points because one of those 5 numbers I had assigned to me was actually #1. I highly doubt I drew that number as my first draw number but most likely with one of the other 4 numbers I had allotted to me. If everyone had just has 1 number allotted to them, there would have been a far less likely chance I would have drawn that one tag. So keep the point system, at least for the residents.

You like points, but drew your Ram in the lotto side of the draw?


You got lucky, but want a sytem that cuts the chances of getting lucky.

You could get lucky and draw a Pauns tag with no points, might do it every 5 years.