Truckers/supply chain

feddoc

Long Time Member
Messages
7,219
Not my words.

medium.com
I’m A Twenty Year Truck Driver, I Will Tell You Why America’s “Shipping Crisis” Will Not End
Ryan JOHNSON October 27, 2021
I have a simple question for every ‘expert’ who thinks they understand the root causes of the shipping crisis:
Why is there only one crane for every 50–100 trucks at every port in America? No ‘expert’ will answer this question.
I’m a Class A truck driver with experience in nearly every aspect of freight. My experience in the trucking industry of 20 years tells me that nothing is going to change in the shipping industry.
Let’s start with understanding some things about ports. Outside of dedicated port trucking companies, most trucking companies won’t touch shipping containers. There is a reason for that.
Think of going to the port as going to Walmart on Black Friday, but imagine only ONE cashier for thousands of customers. Think about the lines. Except at a port, there are at least THREE lines to get a container in or out. The first line is the ‘in’ gate, where hundreds of trucks daily have to pass through 5–10 available gates. The second line is waiting to pick up your container. The third line is for waiting to get out. For each of these lines the wait time is a minimum of an hour, and I’ve waited up to 8 hours in the first line just to get into the port. Some ports are worse than others, but excessive wait times are not uncommon. It’s a rare day when a driver gets in and out in under two hours. By ‘rare day’, I mean maybe a handful of times a year. Ports don’t even begin to have enough workers to keep the ports fluid, and it doesn’t matter where you are, coastal or inland port, union or non-union port, it’s the same everywhere.

Furthermore, I’m fortunate enough to be a Teamster — a union driver — an employee paid by the hour. Most port drivers are ‘independent contractors’, leased onto a carrier who is paying them by the load. Whether their load takes two hours, fourteen hours, or three days to complete, they get paid the same, and they have to pay 90% of their truck operating expenses (the carrier might pay the other 10%, but usually less.) The rates paid to non-union drivers for shipping container transport are usually extremely low. In a majority of cases, these drivers don’t come close to my union wages. They pay for all their own repairs and fuel, and all truck related expenses. I honestly don’t understand how many of them can even afford to show up for work. There’s no guarantee of ANY wage (not even minimum wage), and in many cases, these drivers make far below minimum wage. In some cases they work 70 hour weeks and still end up owing money to their carrier.
So when the coastal ports started getting clogged up last spring due to the impacts of COVID on business everywhere, drivers started refusing to show up. Congestion got so bad that instead of being able to do three loads a day, they could only do one. They took a 2/3 pay cut and most of these drivers were working 12 hours a day or more. While carriers were charging increased pandemic shipping rates, none of those rate increases went to the driver wages. Many drivers simply quit. However, while the pickup rate for containers severely decreased, they were still being offloaded from the boats. And it’s only gotten worse.
Earlier this summer, both BNSF and Union Pacific Railways shut down their container yards in the Chicago area for a week for inbound containers. These are some of the busiest ports in the country. They had miles upon miles of stack (container) trains waiting to get in to be unloaded. According to BNSF, containers were sitting in the port 1/3 longer than usual, and they simply ran out of space to put them until some of the ones already on the ground had been picked up. Though they did reopen the area ports, they are still over capacity. Stack trains are still sitting loaded, all over the country, waiting to get into a port to unload. And they have to be unloaded, there is a finite number of railcars. Equipment shortages are a large part of this problem.
One of these critical shortages is the container chassis.

A container chassis is the trailer the container sits on. Cranes will load these in port. Chassis are typically container company provided, as trucking companies generally don’t have their own chassis units. They are essential for container trucking. While there are some privately owned chassis, there aren’t enough of those to begin to address the backlog of containers today, and now drivers are sitting around for hours, sometimes days, waiting for chassis.
The impact of the container crisis now hitting residencies in proximity to trucking companies. Containers are being pulled out of the port and dropped anywhere the drivers can find because the trucking company lots are full. Ports are desperate to get containers out so they can unload the new containers coming in by boat. When this happens there is no plan to deliver this freight yet, they are literally just making room for the next ship at the port. This won’t last long, as this just compounds the shortage of chassis. Ports will eventually find themselves unable to move containers out of the port until sitting containers are delivered, emptied, returned, or taken to a storage lot (either loaded or empty) and taken off the chassis there so the chassis can be put back into use. The priority is not delivery, the priority is just to clear the port enough to unload the next boat.
What happens when a container does get to a warehouse?
A large portion of international containers must be hand unloaded because the products are not on pallets. It takes a working crew a considerable amount of time to do this, and warehouse work is usually low wage. A lot of it is actually only temp staffed. Many full time warehouse workers got laid off when the pandemic started, and didn’t come back. So warehouses, like everybody else, are chronically short staffed.
When the port trucker gets to the warehouse, they have to wait for a door (you’ve probably seen warehouse buildings with a bank of roll-up doors for trucks on one side of the building.) The warehouses are behind schedule, sometimes by weeks. After maybe a 2 hour wait, the driver gets a door and drops the container — but now often has to pick up an empty, and goes back to the port to wait in line all over again to drop off the empty.
At the warehouse, the delivered freight is unloaded, and it is usually separated and bound to pallets, then shipped out in much smaller quantities to final

destination. A container that had a couple dozen pallets of goods on it will go out on multiple trailers to multiple different destinations a few pallets at a time.
From personal experience, what used to take me 20–30 minutes to pick up at a warehouse can now take three to four hours. This slowdown is warehouse management related: very few warehouses are open 24 hours, and even if they are, many are so short staffed it doesn’t make much difference, they are so far behind schedule. It means that as a freight driver, I cannot pick up as much freight in a day as I used to, and since I can’t get as much freight on my truck, the whole supply chain is backed up. Freight simply isn’t moving.
It’s important to understand what the cost implications are for consumers with this lack of supply in the supply chain. It’s pure supply and demand economics. Consider volume shipping customers who primarily use ‘general freight’, which is the lowest cost shipping and typically travels in a ‘space available’ fashion. They have usually been able to get their freight moved from origination to delivery within two weeks. Think about how you get your packages from Amazon. Even without paying for Prime, you usually get your stuff in a week. The majority of freight travels at this low cost, ‘no guarantee of delivery date’ way, and for the most part it’s been fine for both shippers and consumers. Those days are coming to an end.
People who want their deliveries in a reasonable time are going to have to start paying premium rates. There will be levels of priority, and each increase in rate premium essentially jumps that freight ahead of all the freight with lower or no premium rates. Unless the lack of shipping infrastructure is resolved, things will back up in a cascading effect to the point where if your products are going general freight, you might wait a month or two for delivery. It’s already starting. If you use truck shipping in any way, you’ve no doubt started to see the delays. Think about what’s going to happen to holiday season shipping.
What is going to compel the shippers and carriers to invest in the needed infrastructure? The owners of these companies can theoretically not change anything and their business will still be at full capacity because of the backlog of containers. The backlog of containers doesn’t hurt them. It hurts anyone paying shipping costs — that is, manufacturers selling products and consumers buying products. But it doesn’t hurt the owners of the transportation business — in fact

the laws of supply and demand mean that they are actually going to make more money through higher rates, without changing a thing. They don’t have to improve or add infrastructure (because it’s costly), and they don’t have to pay their workers more (warehouse workers, crane operators, truckers).
 
Part 2.

The ‘experts’ want to say we can do things like open the ports 24/7, and this problem will be over in a couple weeks. They are blowing smoke, and they know it. Getting a container out of the port, as slow and aggravating as it is, is really the easy part, if you can find a truck and chassis to haul it. But every truck driver in America can’t operate 24/7, even if the government suspends Hours Of Service Regulations (federal regulations determining how many hours a week we can work/drive), we still need to sleep sometime. There are also restrictions on which trucks can go into a port. They have to be approved, have RFID tags, port registered, and the drivers have to have at least a TWIC card (Transportation Worker Identification Credential from the federal Transportation Security Administration). Some ports have additional requirements. As I have already said, most trucking companies won’t touch shipping containers with a 100 foot pole. What we have is a system with a limited amount of trucks and qualified drivers, many of whom are already working 14 hours a day (legally, the maximum they can), and now the supposed fix is to have them work 24 hours a day, every day, and not stop until the backlog is cleared. It’s not going to happen. It is not physically possible. There is no “cavalry” coming. No trucking companies are going to pay to register their trucks to haul containers for something that is supposedly so “short term,” because these same companies can get higher rate loads outside the ports. There is no extra capacity to be had, and it makes NO difference anyway, because If you can’t get a container unloaded at a warehouse, having drivers work 24/7/365 solves nothing.
What it will truly take to fix this problem is to run EVERYTHING 24/7: ports (both coastal and domestic),trucks, and warehouses. We need tens of thousands more chassis, and a much greater capacity in trucking.
Before the pandemic, through the pandemic, and really for the whole history of the freight industry at all levels, owners make their money by having low labor costs — that is, low wages and bare minimum staffing. Many supply chain workers are paid minimum wages, no benefits, and there’s a high rate of turnover

because the physical conditions can be brutal (there aren’t even bathrooms for truckers waiting hours at ports because the port owners won’t pay for them. The truckers aren’t port employees and port owners are only legally required to pay for bathroom facilities for their employees. This is a nationwide problem). For the whole supply chain to function efficiently every point has to be working at an equal capacity. Any point that fails bottlenecks the whole system. Right now, it’s ALL failing spectacularly TOGETHER, but fixing one piece won’t do anything. It ALL needs to be fixed, and at the same time.
How do you convince truckers to work when their pay isn’t guaranteed, even to the point where they lose money?
Nobody is compelling the transportation industries to make the needed changes to their infrastructure. There are no laws compelling them to hire the needed workers, or pay them a living wage, or improve working conditions. And nobody is compelling them to buy more container chassis units, more cranes, or more storage space. This is for an industry that literally every business in the world is reliant on in some way or another.
My prediction is that nothing is going to change and the shipping crisis is only going to get worse. Nobody in the supply chain wants to pay to solve the problem. They literally just won’t pay to solve the problem. At the point we are at now, things are so backed up that the backups THEMSELVES are causing container companies, ports, warehouses, and trucking companies to charge massive rate increases for doing literally NOTHING. Container companies have already decreased the maximum allowable times before containers have to be back to the port, and if the congestion is so bad that you can’t get the container back into the port when it is due, the container company can charge massive late fees. The ports themselves will start charging massive storage fees for not getting containers out on time — storage charges alone can run into thousands of dollars a day. Warehouses can charge massive premiums for their services, and so can trucking companies. Chronic understaffing has led to this problem, but it is allowing these same companies to charge ten times more for regular services. Since they’re not paying the workers any more than they did last year or five years ago, the whole industry sits back and cashes in on the mess it created. In fact, the more things are backed up, the more every point of the supply chain

cashes in. There is literally NO incentive to change, even if it means consumers have to do holiday shopping in July and pay triple for shipping.
This is the new normal. All brought to you by the ‘experts’ running our supply chains.
 
Yeah, and wait till brandon’s partners Organized Labor gets done getting even.

Buy domestic, even if it comes out of a union shop. (y)
 
I wonder if our 20-something teamster has weighed in on the expansion of the Panama Canal?

People saw this coming. Follow the money to see who was paying attention.
 
We need UT to finish their inland port.:ROFLMAO:

i suppose they are asking for a navy to defend it in the infrastructure bill?
 
Just going to the cruise terminal in Long Beach, I saw a lot of those container trucks on the road, those trucks take a lot of upkeep and now burn a lot of fuel thanks to def. most of those trucks are getting 3 mpg @$4.00 a gallon vs the older trucks that averaged 7mpg doesn’t leave a lot to pocket for truckers
 
lol....where TF are you finding $4 diesel in cali??....how many ships you see anchored offshore?.....
 
lol....where TF are you finding $4 diesel in cali??....how many ships you see anchored offshore?.....
I honestly don’t know what diesel is in Cali? I think it’s around $4 a gallon here luckily I still have some still left from my last order. 2 summers ago I was buying off-road for$1.45/ gal
 
First thing you do to fix the issue, get rid of the unions running things. In no industry ever, has anyone thought, "you know what we need to run efficient, run fast, run good, a union in charge"

I worked in a food warehouse during the last greatest Brandon ever, recession. It's November. Meaning they are running full tilt, unlimited overtime, for Holidays. The longshoreman, why they put in a tough 4 day week, with I'm sure mandatory 8hr days, 6breaks.

This ain't a truck driver issue, although I'm sure there are always a need for more. This is exactly what it looks like, a Union problem.
 
I see parts of both sides of the union argument. I suppose because I used to negotiate our union contracts (on behalf of mgmt).

Not all unions are the same, and you can’t just assign responsibility to one. There is a lot more to this port mess than just unions.

And a whole lot more than just unions is getting in our britches. Look up seafaring cargo rates to see how much it costs to park a ship out there.:oops:

I could argue about infrastructure all day. It’s what I was trained to do. But someone would just accuse me of being a blowhard.?
 
I see parts of both sides of the union argument. I suppose because I used to negotiate our union contracts (on behalf of mgmt).

Not all unions are the same, and you can’t just assign responsibility to one. There is a lot more to this port mess than just unions.

And a whole lot more than just unions is getting in our britches. Look up seafaring cargo rates to see how much it costs to park a ship out there.:oops:

I could argue about infrastructure all day. It’s what I was trained to do. But someone would just accuse me of being a blowhard.?
You are right as it is a multiplicity of things. The left is happy about it though. We have Covid mandates strangling everyone into submission piece by piece. Making people hungry to take their minds off what the left wants to pass next is their strategy. Most people don't know or don't believe how dire our life will turn as we move into blow after blow of new laws and conditions boomers and younger have never encountered.
My parents have shared things but I was born in the 50s and we've always had what we needed .
 
You are right as it is a multiplicity of things. The left is happy about it though. We have Covid mandates strangling everyone into submission piece by piece. Making people hungry to take their minds off what the left wants to pass next is their strategy. Most people don't know or don't believe how dire our life will turn as we move into blow after blow of new laws and conditions boomers and younger have never encountered.
My parents have shared things but I was born in the 50s and we've always had what we needed .
If the left is happy about anything, it’s the light being shined on our “consumerism “.

And somehow the dockworkers avoided their share of the blame.
That your street paver works 24/7 in order to preserve the critical infrastructure needed to park your Tesla, while the dockworkers worked bankers hours is rich indeed.

But let me ask, would you rather we unload that Chicom chit faster, or have a card carrying American build it here?
 
I see parts of both sides of the union argument. I suppose because I used to negotiate our union contracts (on behalf of mgmt).

Not all unions are the same, and you can’t just assign responsibility to one. There is a lot more to this port mess than just unions.

And a whole lot more than just unions is getting in our britches. Look up seafaring cargo rates to see how much it costs to park a ship out there.:oops:

I could argue about infrastructure all day. It’s what I was trained to do. But someone would just accuse me of being a blowhard.?
My experience is just with The Teamsters so I am guilty of painting with a broad brush but I hate those sonsabitches. Complex problems take complex solutions and I didn’t mean to insinuate that this problem is caused by Unions.
 
You are right as it is a multiplicity of things. The left is happy about it though. We have Covid mandates strangling everyone into submission piece by piece. Making people hungry to take their minds off what the left wants to pass next is their strategy. Most people don't know or don't believe how dire our life will turn as we move into blow after blow of new laws and conditions boomers and younger have never encountered.
My parents have shared things but I was born in the 50s and we've always had what we needed .

And, we've been "taught" that it's pointless to fight the government so why even try? We need to quit talking about how much we oppose it, just roll over, and take it like some on this forum believe, apparently...
 
If not “the government“, who do you suggest should improve our infrastructure?


First. The union thing. Back in the 70's, when the gov cracked down on the mob, and found how entrenched they were with unions, it showed what they are, front groups for criminals (including politicians).

But, I stand by my assertion. Especially today, were as was pointed out, bankers put in more hours than dockworkers.

And. I know blue will disagree. But more construction gets completed by non union guys, before union dudes finish their daily safety meeting and union updates, than union dudes complete all day.
 
First. The union thing. Back in the 70's, when the gov cracked down on the mob, and found how entrenched they were with unions, it showed what they are, front groups for criminals (including politicians).

But, I stand by my assertion. Especially today, were as was pointed out, bankers put in more hours than dockworkers.

And. I know blue will disagree. But more construction gets completed by non union guys, before union dudes finish their daily safety meeting and union updates, than union dudes complete all day.
I don’t necessarily disagree, like I said I see both sides.

Unions still do good in terms of securing wages and benefits for the rank and file, their primary purpose

But unions are BIG businesses with competitive advantages granted by the State, and with outsized political influence. And all too often, sleaze bags in the corner offices just like other big biz(n)

Public sector unions are another animal altogether, and not what I’m talking about (although one has to wonder if the dockworkers are public sector if the counterparty is the Port Authority).

And while union membership has declined, they still control the areas and sectors they want - like DC and the ports. They don’t care as much about the plumber in Rocksprings as they do about the coal mines and power plants.

I’m aware of the organized crime connection, but fortunately I have never seen it.
 
This is only half true. Our ports can’t handle the next generation of vessels. That’s why they’re making the Panama Canal bigger.
Curious, what does this accomplish?
Direct shipping to southern and eastern ports? It's been awhile but last I checked they weren't in any better shape.

And just for fun, anybody have a copy of the work rules for longshoremen in Long Beach?
 
Curious, what does this accomplish?
Direct shipping to southern and eastern ports? It's been awhile but last I checked they weren't in any better shape.

And just for fun, anybody have a copy of the work rules for longshoremen in Long Beach?
Any ports that are planning to accommodate the larger ships are/have been undergoing extensive capital improvements. This is everything from dredging to new piers and cranes. Port construction has been a pretty big market the last few years.

I would probably puke if I read the work rules. They were absurd in NYC.
 
Let’s go Brandon & comrades say we should all just lower our expectations. We’re headed for a lot more pain
 
I agree with Blue in that the Unions have their place. Organized crime in their file and ranks was in the 70's but no longer exists.

But if you are a young man in the Bay Area where housing is so expensive that two families are getting together to buy one house you need all the advantage you can get.

Go to College and get a degree to work for 70k a year or go to the Unions and be a Union plumber doing 40 hours and make $2800 a week. So you don't need a college education to make a good living.
And Hoss I would put my carpenters against any non union guy and I know they would out perform them. Saying you get more done before they complete their safety meeting is a broad stroke at best. What's wrong with Safety don't you want to go home to you wife and kids each day?
 
I agree with Blue in that the Unions have their place. Organized crime in their file and ranks was in the 70's but no longer exists.
Yeah, maybe. Most unions are deep blue...
Go to College and get a degree to work for 70k a year or go to the Unions and be a Union plumber doing 40 hours and make $2800 a week. So you don't need a college education to make a good living.
Obviously, you wouldn't go to a 4 year for a trade license profession.
And Hoss I would put my carpenters against any non union guy and I know they would out perform them. Saying you get more done before they complete their safety meeting is a broad stroke at best. What's wrong with Safety don't you want to go home to you wife and kids each day?
Depends on what the carpenter (union) does. Are they framing houses or building scaffolding?
 
Yeah, maybe. Most unions are deep blue...

Obviously, you wouldn't go to a 4 year for a trade license profession.

Depends on what the carpenter (union) does. Are they framing houses or building scaffolding?
Are you ever going to answer the question about the role of “the government” in infrastructure?

Or are you just going to make China pay for it?

That last post of yours was lame……it’s ok to surrender.?
 
I agree with Blue in that the Unions have their place. Organized crime in their file and ranks was in the 70's but no longer exists.

But if you are a young man in the Bay Area where housing is so expensive that two families are getting together to buy one house you need all the advantage you can get.

Go to College and get a degree to work for 70k a year or go to the Unions and be a Union plumber doing 40 hours and make $2800 a week. So you don't need a college education to make a good living.
And Hoss I would put my carpenters against any non union guy and I know they would out perform them. Saying you get more done before they complete their safety meeting is a broad stroke at best. What's wrong with Safety don't you want to go home to you wife and kids each day?


I'd take that bet, everyday and twice on Sunday.

Safety is great. But in the real world, we don't have to tell guys to not cut off their foot, everyday. Guys that need that explained, join Unions.

As to the crime/union connection. Might want to do some homework, unions are great money launderers.

Sorry, still laughing at the first part.
 
OSHA requires certain action on the part of employers in terms of training and documentation. That’s one reason big construction companies tend to be union shops; they understand the cover charge to get in the room. There are many more reasons.

Butt, I don’t want your 20 year old son framing carpenter decking my bridge 80’ in the air. I don’t want to have to tell you or his mother he fell and died. Fatalities are terrible for all of us who have been involved.

Bet your rat lettuce pickers against my union ones, and I’ll bet along side you.:ROFLMAO:
 
OSHA requires certain action on the part of employers in terms of training and documentation. That’s one reason big construction companies tend to be union shops; they understand the cover charge to get in the room. There are many more reasons.

Butt, I don’t want your 20 year old son framing carpenter decking my bridge 80’ in the air. I don’t want to have to tell you or his mother he fell and died. Fatalities are terrible for all of us who have been involved.

Bet your rat lettuce pickers against my union ones, and I’ll bet along side you.:ROFLMAO:


That revolving door from trade unions into OSHA works great for the unions. Get regs written to work to the benefit of the unions, then unions get the jobs.

Yeah. Only union guys work at heights?. I'll tell the dudes building most, if not all the highrises in SLC
 
I'd take that bet, everyday and twice on Sunday.

Safety is great. But in the real world, we don't have to tell guys to not cut off their foot, everyday. Guys that need that explained, join Unions.

As to the crime/union connection. Might want to do some homework, unions are great money launderers.

Sorry, still laughing at the first part.
Twice on Sunday Is that because we get double time on Sundays? LOL

Hoss I know you are a responsible contractor and give a hoot about your company. but if you ever get a major accident on your job and OSHA gets called in the first thing they will ask for is your safety meetings sheets.
If you don't have those be prepared to defend yourself and company in court. It will be a losing proposition.
My company was on a job in major refinery and they had an explosion that killed a refinery employee. My company was called in to clean up and rebuild the unit.
OSHA came in and you would think I was the one who caused the accident. The hoops we had to jump through was crazy.
It all depends on where you hang your hat in SF you have to be Union and that is fine with me as a General I get a percentage of what they get. The more they get the more I get.........
 
Twice on Sunday Is that because we get double time on Sundays? LOL

Hoss I know you are a responsible contractor and give a hoot about your company. but if you ever get a major accident on your job and OSHA gets called in the first thing they will ask for is your safety meetings sheets.
If you don't have those be prepared to defend yourself and company in court. It will be a losing proposition.
My company was on a job in major refinery and they had an explosion that killed a refinery employee. My company was called in to clean up and rebuild the unit.
OSHA came in and you would think I was the one who caused the accident. The hoops we had to jump through was crazy.
It all depends on where you hang your hat in SF you have to be Union and that is fine with me as a General I get a percentage of what they get. The more they get the more I get.........


And you wonder why guys can't afford housing there.

Years ago we were doing apartments. Late 90's, so it was busy.

Had 3 union guys who were between projects and wanted to work for couple weeks.

Boss thought it would be fun to see it. Me and my dad, vs 3 of them. We knocked out coating 4 units a day, plus starting a 5th.

Them 3, got 2 per day. They did good work, so no knock on skills. They did "proudly" rock their union t shirts, and spent a lot of time trying to convince us we should all be union.

Come following Monday, when we turned in "time cards", they were dumbfounded to see that they hadn't made nothing. They were proud, hourly union journeyman. Problem was, they couldn't produce, spent too much time on break, at lunch, and basically dragging azz.

They cranked it up the next week and got 3units, and bitched all week about working like miles. Dad and I decided to try, plus the GC bet them me and dad could double them up.

Like I said, good work, nice enough guys. No clue how to get across work, produce, etc.

Over the years I've seen similar.

So sure, I'm sure there are jobs that unions do, because only unions are set up to handle the red tape and beaucrats.

But no one hires a union contractor to get things done. That would be like hiring a fat girl to work the door at hooters. Sure, she might have the "skills", but no one is paying for it?
 
And you wonder why guys can't afford housing there.

Years ago we were doing apartments. Late 90's, so it was busy.

Had 3 union guys who were between projects and wanted to work for couple weeks.

Boss thought it would be fun to see it. Me and my dad, vs 3 of them. We knocked out coating 4 units a day, plus starting a 5th.

Them 3, got 2 per day. They did good work, so no knock on skills. They did "proudly" rock their union t shirts, and spent a lot of time trying to convince us we should all be union.

Come following Monday, when we turned in "time cards", they were dumbfounded to see that they hadn't made nothing. They were proud, hourly union journeyman. Problem was, they couldn't produce, spent too much time on break, at lunch, and basically dragging azz.

They cranked it up the next week and got 3units, and bitched all week about working like miles. Dad and I decided to try, plus the GC bet them me and dad could double them up.

Like I said, good work, nice enough guys. No clue how to get across work, produce, etc.

Over the years I've seen similar.

So sure, I'm sure there are jobs that unions do, because only unions are set up to handle the red tape and beaucrats.

But no one hires a union contractor to get things done. That would be like hiring a fat girl to work the door at hooters. Sure, she might have the "skills", but no one is paying for it?
Hoss

I can come up with similar stories to back my side but I am not into pissing contests.

So you do piece work, so much money for said amount of work, is that why you have no time for safety meetings. I understand now completely.
Your conception of Unions is laughable at best, red tape and Bureaucrats..........I thought Homer would have caught this!!!
 
BTW.

I knew I could get blue hair to unzip????

Fun razzing dudes. I got no real I'll will to trades unions, just like talking chit.

But the port unions, and especially teachers unions, good lord?
 
Hoss

I can come up with similar stories to back my side but I am not into pissing contests.

So you do piece work, so much money for said amount of work, is that why you have no time for safety meetings. I understand now completely.
Your conception of Unions is laughable at best, red tape and Bureaucrats..........I thought Homer would have caught this!!!


Meetings, OSHA compliance guys, secretaries to file all that paperwork. None of those things are productive. All waste time, waste money.

And yeah. There is a reason union trades, have minimum production levels. There is zero incentive to produce, and on fact an incentive to drag out jobs.

Come see Utah sometime. As you travel down I-15 you'll notice the piles of bay area companies that have moved here. Same is true in Texas.

Figure out the cost of government, then tack on the cost of unions, and it's not hard to figure out.

And no we ain't all working for minimum wage, and no we don't have pikes of dead bodies laying around from accidents.
 
I like a good argument. The good ones are the only ones you learn anything from.

I was just trying to make the point that comparing the productivity of a framer who’s highest climb is into his lifted truck to ANYONE else doesn’t hold water.

And as a guy who came from an MSHA environment, I can say OSHA is a bunch of sissies.

My real beef with unions is the way the dues are handled. It’s like a conservation group drew up the plays.;)

Oddly I was considered anti-union by a lot of people, including the union leadership I tried to work with. I did NOT get a Christmas card.
 
I like a good argument. The good ones are the only ones you learn anything from.

I was just trying to make the point that comparing the productivity of a framer who’s highest climb is into his lifted truck to ANYONE else doesn’t hold water.

And as a guy who came from an MSHA environment, I can say OSHA is a bunch of sissies.

My real beef with unions is the way the dues are handled. It’s like a conservation group drew up the plays.;)

Oddly I was considered anti-union by a lot of people, including the union leadership I tried to work with. I did NOT get a Christmas card.
Hey Blue

funny chit right there I was on the other side of the aisle when the negotiations for the contract were up. I had a great time doing that I guess that is what us Union companies do as we don't do any work according to Hoss..
 
Meetings, OSHA compliance guys, secretaries to file all that paperwork. None of those things are productive. All waste time, waste money.

And yeah. There is a reason union trades, have minimum production levels. There is zero incentive to produce, and on fact an incentive to drag out jobs.

Come see Utah sometime. As you travel down I-15 you'll notice the piles of bay area companies that have moved here. Same is true in Texas.

Figure out the cost of government, then tack on the cost of unions, and it's not hard to figure out.

And no we ain't all working for minimum wage, and no we don't have pikes of dead bodies laying around from accidents.
Hoss

I am in Utah all the time grew up there I even have a contractors license in Utah.

Also what is wrong with having a secretary, mine is an extension of my right me, allows me to get more work and also maintain my regular clients.

Also I have no ill will towards anyone in the construction industry it is a hard job at best and only the best survive whether they are Union or Non- Union
 
I've worked for union and non union companies. Unions bring job security, to a point, well trained employees, good wages and benefits. They stifle individual incentive and flexibility to a company.

While working for a union sawmill I got interested in doing other jobs and was donating my time to learning something new. The union came down on me hard and told me to stay in my own lane. Those jobs are filled by seniority only.

Most non union shops are "forced" to match union scale and benefits or risk losing personnel to the unions, so in that regard they are good.
 
I've worked for union and non union companies. Unions bring job security, to a point, well trained employees, good wages and benefits. They stifle individual incentive and flexibility to a company.

While working for a union sawmill I got interested in doing other jobs and was donating my time to learning something new. The union came down on me hard and told me to stay in my own lane. Those jobs are filled by seniority only.

Most non union shops are "forced" to match union scale and benefits or risk losing personnel to the unions, so in that regard they are good.
Been there. My first real (“project engineer”/clerk) summer job was on one of the nearby coal mines. A VERY strong union environment.

My first week I made the mistake of picking up some tools that were left out, something my contractor dad would have kicked my azz for not doing. BA was there the next day throwing a hissy fit because I was stealing overtime hours from the membership.

I feel like I got even over the next 42 years.
 
Union carpenters are renowned for their generous pensions:rolleyes:

But if what you say is true, you make a good case to join.:ROFLMAO:
 
Just opened a self-check lane in SF.

selfchecklane.jpg
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom