Unit Wide?

ELKMAN

Active Member
Messages
724
If a ranch is in the unit wide E-plus system, is the land supposed to be “open” during all public land elk hunts?
 

toklat

Active Member
Messages
490
Simplest answer, It is open for whatever “specific” 5 day period you chose to hunt identified under the E-Plus Unit Wide hunt beginning and end dates!
 

RoughCountry

Active Member
Messages
203
If there is a elk season open then the unit wide property is open. On a ranch only tag the property with that tag is open for the dates on the tag but only the tag holder can access that property. My brothers ranch only tag is good from Oct16 to Dec 31rifle only this year. Unit wide doesn’t mean the gates have to be open because a lot of the land enrolled does have cattle on it, but you can enter and you have to be at least 150 yards away from any building before shooting without permission.
 

Booner

Member
Messages
72
My brothers ranch only tag is good from Oct16 to Dec 31rifle
but you can enter and you have to be at least 150 yards away from any building before shooting without permission.
This is the problem with getting info from 2nd hand sources vs straight from the G&F website.
-RO rifle tags are only good for 5 days. I think you forgot to mention he has to pick 5 days within that window to actually hunt.
-you can shoot an elk off a guys front porch if the building is within the property boundaries the tag is good for. You don’t even have to knock first. The EPLUS contract specifically states that hunters can shoot elk within 150 yards of a building.

Not mentioned - you get 2 days to scout prior to the season for which you have a tag.
 

BUGLEnmIN

Very Active Member
Messages
2,035
This is the problem with getting info from 2nd hand sources vs straight from the G&F website.
-RO rifle tags are only good for 5 days. I think you forgot to mention he has to pick 5 days within that window to actually hunt.
-you can shoot an elk off a guys front porch if the building is within the property boundaries the tag is good for. You don’t even have to knock first. The EPLUS contract specifically states that hunters can shoot elk within 150 yards of a building.

Not mentioned - you get 2 days to scout prior to the season for which you have a tag.
I called G&F office and was told I couldn’t have acces to the property until the day the hunt opens?
They’re supposed to give equal access to everyone which is BS because the tag buyers this year we’re driving in and locking the gate !
 

Booner

Member
Messages
72
I called G&F office and was told I couldn’t have acces to the property until the day the hunt opens?
They’re supposed to give equal access to everyone which is BS because the tag buyers this year we’re driving in and locking the gate !
That’s the problem with calling. You talked to a human. Humans make mistakes.
Unit-Wide Rules

• Unit-wide private ranches are open during each public elk hunt for the sole purpose of hunting elk.
• They are not open during any other time of year or for any other purpose.
• Hunters are allowed free access to the entire unit-wide ranch during their licensed hunt dates, including scouting up to two days immediately preceding the start of their hunt.
• Landowners and their employees may not interfere with elk hunters while on the ranch and elk hunters are not required to notify landowners or their employees before entering the ranch.
• Vehicular access may be restricted on the ranch however; it must be equally restricted to all elk hunters, including hunters holding a license purchased with authorizations issued to the ranch.
• No elk hunter, including hunters holding a license purchased with authorizations issued to this ranch, may drive off-road on a unit-wide ranch except to retrieve legally harvested elk with separate permission from the landowner.
• Unit-wide ranches are not open for camping.

Video that BS and turn them in.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
3,262
This is the problem with getting info from 2nd hand sources vs straight from the G&F website.
-RO rifle tags are only good for 5 days. I think you forgot to mention he has to pick 5 days within that window to actually hunt.
-you can shoot an elk off a guys front porch if the building is within the property boundaries the tag is good for. You don’t even have to knock first. The EPLUS contract specifically states that hunters can shoot elk within 150 yards of a building.

Not mentioned - you get 2 days to scout prior to the season for which you have a tag.

You cannot shoot an elk off the guy's front porch without their say so. Same rules apply on private land with UW designations as they do on public ground. Go read the regs.

Shooting elk within 150 yds is not the same thing as 135 yds or the front porch. It means you can shoot all the up to and including 150 yds, not closer.

A public land tag used on private ground with a UW designation does not give you free reign and use of a private domicile or any of its ancillaries.

The only thing the UW designation offers is the ability to access private ground without first obtaining permission. That's it and that's all.
 

Booner

Member
Messages
72
“All elk hunters legally accessing the property pursuant to this unit wide agreement have permission to discharge firearms, crossbows, bows, and muzzleloaders, only for the purposes of shooting elk, INCLUDING WITHIN 150 yards of a dwelling or building described…”
It’s right in their contracts. (Not the all caps part, I did that.)
 

BUGLEnmIN

Very Active Member
Messages
2,035
That’s the problem with calling. You talked to a human. Humans make mistakes.
Unit-Wide Rules

• Unit-wide private ranches are open during each public elk hunt for the sole purpose of hunting elk.
• They are not open during any other time of year or for any other purpose.
• Hunters are allowed free access to the entire unit-wide ranch during their licensed hunt dates, including scouting up to two days immediately preceding the start of their hunt.
• Landowners and their employees may not interfere with elk hunters while on the ranch and elk hunters are not required to notify landowners or their employees before entering the ranch.
• Vehicular access may be restricted on the ranch however; it must be equally restricted to all elk hunters, including hunters holding a license purchased with authorizations issued to the ranch.
• No elk hunter, including hunters holding a license purchased with authorizations issued to this ranch, may drive off-road on a unit-wide ranch except to retrieve legally harvested elk with separate permission from the landowner.
• Unit-wide ranches are not open for camping.

Video that BS and turn them in.
That’s good to know thanks man!
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
3,262
“All elk hunters legally accessing the property pursuant to this unit wide agreement have permission to discharge firearms, crossbows, bows, and muzzleloaders, only for the purposes of shooting elk, INCLUDING WITHIN 150 yards of a dwelling or building described…”
It’s right in their contracts. (Not the all caps part, I did that.)

Within 150 yds DOES NOT mean closer than 150 yds as in shooting off their porch.

A contract is not a law, sir. The law is very clear you may not discharge a firearm closer than 150 yds from any established dwelling or structure.

"Discharge a firearm within 150 yds of a dwelling or building (not including abandoned or vacated buildings on public land) without the permission of the owner or lessee." ~ NM Rules and Info, Rules and Information for Big Game and Turkey (pg 21).

The contract clearly follows the statute as defined in the big game rules booklet and is a means to notify the landowner that very likely could not be a hunter themselves of what the hunter may do in the chance they hear the discharge of a rifle very near to their "front porch".
 

Booner

Member
Messages
72
Within 150 yds DOES NOT mean closer than 150 yds as in shooting off their porch.

A contract is not a law, sir. The law is very clear you may not discharge a firearm closer than 150 yds from any established dwelling or structure.

"Discharge a firearm within 150 yds of a dwelling or building (not including abandoned or vacated buildings on public land) without the permission of the owner or lessee." ~ NM Rules and Info, Rules and Information for Big Game and Turkey (pg 21).

The contract clearly follows the statute as defined in the big game rules booklet and is a means to notify the landowner that very likely could not be a hunter themselves of what the hunter may do in the chance they hear the discharge of a rifle very near to their "front porch".
With all due respect sir, I disagree. The provision is specifically in the EPLUS contract. It is there for this example:
2 acre SCR UW tag. Building on property. No one home all season. No one to answers a phone call (not necessary anyways to ask). That would be unhuntable if you had to ask. This topic has been covered by the commission and they specifically put that clause in the EPLUS contract to cover such cases. Seems crazy yes, but I stand by my position on the issue. Probably never applies but in a handful of cases.

Of course you don’t have “free reign and use of a private domicile or any of its ancillaries.” I never implied that.
 
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roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
3,262
With all due respect sir, I disagree. The provision is specifically in the EPLUS contract. It is there for this example:
2 acre SCR UW tag. Building on property. No one home all season. No one to answers a phone call (not necessary anyways to ask). That would be unhuntable if you had to ask. This topic has been covered by the commission and they specifically put that clause in the EPLUS contract to cover such cases. Seems crazy yes, but I stand by my position on the issue. Probably never applies but in a handful of cases.

As written, it is illegal because the same language is used defining it in the publication. Period. UW public land laws apply to UW EPLUS. There is no way for anyone to know what is and is not in a contract.

-you can shoot an elk off a guys front porch if the building is within the property boundaries the tag is good for. You don’t even have to knock first. The EPLUS contract specifically states that hunters can shoot elk within 150 yards of a building.
Of course you don’t have “free reign and use of a private domicile or any of its ancillaries.” I never implied that.

Actually, you did...
 
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Booner

Member
Messages
72
Within does not mean inside of. Within is a defined boundary. As written, it is illegal because the same language is used defining it in the publication. Period. UW public land laws apply to UW EPLUS. There is no way for anyone to know what is and is not in a contract.



Actually, you did...
My “off the front porch” statement was a step off base maybe and could be argued it is inside a dwelling. I will rephrase…you could be on the walkway up to the front door.

When the Authorized Ranch Contract signs the agreement they agree to allow shooting of elk inside the 150 yard buffer. Period. I still disagree for the reasons stated above that the commission specifically ruled on. We can go back and forth all day and it looks like neither of us will budge.

The reference to 30-7-4 NMSA 1978 does not apply if the ranch is a UW property. It is part of the signed contract. The public would know what the contract says if they downloaded a copy off the G&F website and read it. The contract further states that all other sections and subsections of 30-7-4 remain in effect.
Not on the G&F site for some reason. But, page 4, middle paragraph next to the bold font.
The regs should state this as an exception to 30-7-4 but they obviously left it out. 1000% sure you could dump an elk in a guys front yard, as long as you were not endangering human life, and be in the clear. Would I do it? No. But you could.
 
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roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
3,262
My “off the front porch” statement was a step off base maybe and could be argued it is inside a dwelling. I will rephrase…you could be on the walkway up to the front door.

When the Authorized Ranch Contract signs the agreement they agree to allow shooting of elk inside the 150 yard buffer. Period. I still disagree for the reasons stated above that the commission specifically ruled on. We can go back and forth all day and it looks like neither of us will budge.

The reference to 30-7-4 NMSA 1978 does not apply if the ranch is a UW property. It is part of the signed contract. The public would know what the contract says if they downloaded a copy off the G&F website and read it. The contract further states that all other sections and subsections of 30-7-4 remain in effect.
Not on the G&F site for some reason. But, page 4, middle paragraph next to the bold font.
The regs should state this as an exception to 30-7-4 but they obviously left it out. 1000% sure you could dump an elk in a guys front yard, as long as you were not endangering human life, and be in the clear. Would I do it? No. But you could.

The inherent problem is that it is not stipulated in a public resource that hunters can access. Until then, it's illegal, regardless of what or how a contract reads or what a game commission ruled on.

It is not public knowledge. Also, just because SCR landowner 'A' with 2 acres is enrolled in the EPLUS doesn't mean their neighbor landowner 'B' is. If the person discharges their firearm 75 yds from 'A's' home, but is 110 yds away from 'B's' home and the hunter doesn't have 'B's' permission, there is a problem and the hunter is most definitely in violation.

A county or state prosecutor overrules a game commission. The ruling from the game commission is to address the situation where a SCR of 10 acres is located in the middle of 25 sections of BLM or USFS with no other structures around.

Game commission had better get themselves clarified and print the regs and stips in black and white...
 

Muleman

Active Member
Messages
248
The UW contract LO sign is basically saying I give permission for hunters to shoot with in 150yds of my dwelling. In The negligent use law where it states you can’t shoot within 150 yds of
Occupied dwelling it also say LO can give permission for someone to shoot within 150 yds. The contract is the hunters written permission.

It could go screwy on scene if all parties aren’t aware of these rules. But in court the hunter would win every time.
 

BUGLEnmIN

Very Active Member
Messages
2,035
A little off base here but was in 37 this weekend, a county road gives access to to a strip of state land that runs north and south between 2 pieces of private, the landowner comes and tries to throw me out ! Says this isn’t the “ DESIGNATED” parking to hunt the state land and that we couldn’t hunt it anyway because we can’t discharge a firearm within 400 yards of a house😆
I said cool story man I bet it works on most people but you’re absolutely INCORRECT! First of all the bar ditch on I’m parked in is off a public road on public land and it’s actually 150 yards away from a house sir!
Guy says I’m just trying to be nice before I calm the state police, I say we’ll I appreciate you “ trying to be nice” and I’m sure you may have had success with that story before but you can go ahead and call anyone you want I’ll leave when I’m good and ready.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
3,262
The UW contract LO sign is basically saying I give permission for hunters to shoot with in 150yds of my dwelling. In The negligent use law where it states you can’t shoot within 150 yds of
Occupied dwelling it also say LO can give permission for someone to shoot within 150 yds. The contract is the hunters written permission.

It could go screwy on scene if all parties aren’t aware of these rules. But in court the hunter would win every time.

In the case of an individual landowner, sure. In the case of SCR ranches with (many) others around, not so much.

I also believe the intent is to address structures such as barns, shops, or occasional use homes (vacation and weekend use) and not a permanent home where they may wake up to a sudden bang from a 338 Ultra Mag 25 yds from a bedroom window...
 

smarba

Active Member
Messages
446
While we're on the topic of 150-yards from a dwelling, the way I read the rules it is illegal to discharge a weapon within 150. But if you're 250 away and the animal is only 50 away, technically you could discharge from greater than 150 but kill the animal within 50 of the dwelling. Again, perhaps unwise, perhaps risky, certainly need to be aware of the background for projectile, but technically legal, no?
 

Muleman

Active Member
Messages
248
I also believe the intent is to address structures such as barns, shops, or occasional use homes (vacation and weekend use) and not a permanent home where they may wake up to a sudden bang from a 338 Ultra Mag 25 yds from a bedroom window...
I believe you are correct as of intent of the rule but as normal the G&F doesn't think things through and the reality is you can stand on their front porch by the way the contract is written. I don't think its right but it is what it is
While we're on the topic of 150-yards from a dwelling, the way I read the rules it is illegal to discharge a weapon within 150. But if you're 250 away and the animal is only 50 away, technically you could discharge from greater than 150 but kill the animal within 50 of the dwelling. Again, perhaps unwise, perhaps risky, certainly need to be aware of the background for projectile, but technically legal, no?
Not legal parts 1 and 3 the negligent use law would make that illegal
30-7-4. Negligent use of a deadly weapon.

A. Negligent use of a deadly weapon consists of:

(1) discharging a firearm into any building or vehicle or so as to knowingly endanger a person or his property;

(2) carrying a firearm while under the influence of an intoxicant or narcotic;

(3) endangering the safety of another by handling or using a firearm or other deadly weapon in a negligent manner; or

(4) discharging a firearm within one hundred fifty yards of a dwelling or building, not including abandoned or vacated buildings on public lands during hunting seasons, without the permission of the owner or lessees thereof.

B. The provisions of Paragraphs (1), (3) and (4) of Subsection A of this section shall not apply to a peace officer or other public employee who is required or authorized by law to carry or use a firearm in the course of his employment and who carries, handles, uses or discharges a firearm while lawfully engaged in carrying out the duties of his office or employment.

C. The exceptions from criminal liability provided for in Subsection B of this section shall not preclude or affect civil liability for the same conduct.

Whoever commits negligent use of a deadly weapon is guilty of a petty misdemeanor.
 

smarba

Active Member
Messages
446
Mule: I believe it possible to kill an animal within 150-yards of a dwelling and not violate (1) and (3); however, it would definitely be a case-by-case basis and regardless of potentially being legal, might still result in having to defend oneself in court. Example: House has a 20- berm behind it, elk is 100-yards behind house and house is not visible or in line with projectile trajectory to elk. If you shoot from a location 250-yards from house, that would not necessarily knowingly endanger anyone (assuming you have a clear field of view) nor would it necessarily be considered negligent. That said, I'm not sure I'd like to be the one to test this scenario...
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
3,262
I believe you are correct as of intent of the rule but as normal the G&F doesn't think things through and the reality is you can stand on their front porch by the way the contract is written. I don't think its right but it is what it is

I've yet to see the contract between a landowner and G&F when acquiring an EPLUS tag, RO or UW.

It's not public knowledge. Because of this the contract is not law and does not stand as a document in authority.

All it means is that G&F isn't obligated to charge the violation of discharging inside a radius of 150 yds from a structure.

If that structure is occupied at the time of a weapons discharge, regardless of a contract in place, G&F would very well likely lose should a complaint be filed should the hunter be sitting on the front porch using the banister as a gun rest...
 

Booner

Member
Messages
72
710BFFA1-097D-4CB6-B313-3E66ED54B5AA.jpeg
An actual photo of someone replying to this thread:
 

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