USFS

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mightyhunter

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On May 30th, 2020, I stopped at the Pilot Creek Trailhead in the Shoshone National Forest in Wyoming. In the last year or so, the USFS had installed a brand new vaulted toilet system at this trailhead. These are purchased and installed at considerable expense to the taxpayer. This is what I found. Is this just a problem in this area, or is the USFS managed by people who lack foresight or are just plain incompetent? just sayin...mh

toiletsign.JPG


vault.JPG
 
I know the guy who runs the blade for the forest circus here (hi Dave :) ). He does more single-handedly to keep people out of the woods than anyone I know.
 
hmmmm....how much does it cost to keep a dry hole shitter with no sink in operation??
 
Homer said:
hmmmm....how much does it cost to keep a dry hole shitter with no sink in operation??
Click to expand...
I think the days of college kids working summers for them is over. There was a guy cruising around the Apache Sitgrieves NF (in AZ) maintaining the campgrounds. He was a private contractor (landscape company). They had contracts with the USFS all over the west according to this guy.

The only USFS crew I saw (besides firefighters) were a truckload of people installing warning signs for bicyclists crossing cattleguards. Seriously.

Up here you can go weeks without seeing a crew. I can tell you they stopped picking up the trash all the rona refugees leave in the woods. The only way you would know if the USFS was still in business is if you happen to run into the blade the one time a summer he comes by.

Our golf course left the bathrooms closed for health reasons. Cut down on the women on the course, and the time it takes to play a round went way down. :)
 
They Gotta Start Covering some of them STIMULUS Checks somehow!

Probably USFS Personnel driving right past it every day & they're afraid somebody might Steal the TP!
 
Mightyhunter i was just up at jack creek for 4 days. Both bathrooms have the same sign. With such a heavily used trailhead it looks like everyone did their buisness throughout the whole campground
 
For their own safety, I think USFS personnel are confined to their Station from about mid April through October here in northern California. I stopped at the Ranger Station to get a campfire permit last September and asked the gal if it was safe? She said she wouldn't.
 
We need a campfire permit but no open fires allowed. Propane type stoves only during hunting season which is still fire season in CA.
 
Why do they need toilets there? Wyoming residents just chit in their pants once they see a grizz track...
 
There seems to be little logic involved in all of this. The Crazy Creek Campground about 2-3 miles from the Pilot Creek Trailhead has an older two holer and is open for business if you pay a fee. I thought when we paid federal income tax we were paying for services on public land. I was at the Jim Mountain Trailhead last week hiking. That ancient outhouse was stocked with TP and open for business. If any Wyoming residents want to complain about this, I would contact Barasso's office in Riverton. If folks don't say anything, the circus will continue.
 
Logic has no place within the USFS or the BLM. Ranchers and mining and logging have been dealing with these issues for decades.
 
Many of these agencies have a goal of becoming "self funded". They would like you to think there is no conflict as they carry out their regulatory mission. OSHA for example.
 
I’m sure all of you guys could do a better job running the USFS. Next old man MH will want a bathroom every mile because old men need to go to the bathroom more.

here’s a solution, buy some depends and keep hiking. Enjoy what is there and feel lucky that the land is there to recreate on. Oh and watch out for the big bad grizzly bear.
 
I spoke with Pam Buline in Senator Barrassos' office in Riverton. You can call her at 307-856-6642. She is very nice. She said the USFS was doing this because of the Covid Pandemic. I told her that the notice was plainly written that the closure was due to lack of funding. I sent her a copy of both the notice and the vaulted toilet.

The Shoshone National Forest logs very little and receives minimal revenue from grazing. They sell a few wood permits, Christmas Tree permits and get a little from special use permits from outfitting on the national forest. They rent out campground space at various campgrounds scattered throughout the district. It is essentially a recreation based district on national forest that is adjacent to Yellowstone National Park.

The Shoshone National Forest has been criticized by many locals for being top heavy. Many believe that they have too many overpaid generals and no foot soldiers. I have no idea if this a national problem within the USFS or just a local problem. I do know that a permanent employee with the USFS with 15 years service is entitled to 26 days of paid vacation per year. I also know that they can retire at a young age of 55. I am aware of few jobs in the private sector that have such benefits.

just sayin...mh
 
k
mightyhunter said:
I spoke with Pam Buline in Senator Barrassos' office in Riverton. You can call her at 307-856-6642. She is very nice. She said the USFS was doing this because of the Covid Pandemic. I told her that the notice was plainly written that the closure was due to lack of funding. I sent her a copy of both the notice and the vaulted toilet.

The Shoshone National Forest logs very little and receives minimal revenue from grazing. They sell a few wood permits, Christmas Tree permits and get a little from special use permits from outfitting on the national forest. They rent out campground space at various campgrounds scattered throughout the district. It is essentially a recreation based district on national forest that is adjacent to Yellowstone National Park.

The Shoshone National Forest has been criticized by many locals for being top heavy. Many believe that they have too many overpaid generals and no foot soldiers. I have no idea if this a national problem within the USFS or just a local problem. I do know that a permanent employee with the USFS with 15 years service is entitled to 26 days of paid vacation per year. I also know that they can retire at a young age of 55. I am aware of few jobs in the private sector that have such benefits.

just sayin...mh
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update MH. At jack creek both bathrooms were clearly labeled DUE TO LACK OF FUNDING
 
mightyhunter said:
I spoke with Pam Buline in Senator Barrassos' office in Riverton. You can call her at 307-856-6642. She is very nice. She said the USFS was doing this because of the Covid Pandemic. I told her that the notice was plainly written that the closure was due to lack of funding. I sent her a copy of both the notice and the vaulted toilet.

The Shoshone National Forest logs very little and receives minimal revenue from grazing. They sell a few wood permits, Christmas Tree permits and get a little from special use permits from outfitting on the national forest. They rent out campground space at various campgrounds scattered throughout the district. It is essentially a recreation based district on national forest that is adjacent to Yellowstone National Park.

The Shoshone National Forest has been criticized by many locals for being top heavy. Many believe that they have too many overpaid generals and no foot soldiers. I have no idea if this a national problem within the USFS or just a local problem. I do know that a permanent employee with the USFS with 15 years service is entitled to 26 days of paid vacation per year. I also know that they can retire at a young age of 55. I am aware of few jobs in the private sector that have such benefits.

just sayin...mh
Click to expand...
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. I spent a decade working for a federal land agency and can attest to what you’ve described and fire and law enforcement just need 20 years all the other jobs require 30 years to retire.
 
Slightlysober said:
I’m sure all of you guys could do a better job running the USFS. Next old man MH will want a bathroom every mile because old men need to go to the bathroom more.

here’s a solution, buy some depends and keep hiking. Enjoy what is there and feel lucky that the land is there to recreate on. Oh and watch out for the big bad grizzly bear.
Click to expand...

so...your point is that the maintanance free outhouses tax payers paid for should be locked up??
 
mightyhunter said:
The Shoshone National Forest has been criticized by many locals for being top heavy. Many believe that they have too many overpaid generals and no foot soldiers. I have no idea if this a national problem within the USFS or just a local problem. I do know that a permanent employee with the USFS with 15 years service is entitled to 26 days of paid vacation per year. I also know that they can retire at a young age of 55. I am aware of few jobs in the private sector that have such benefits.

just sayin...mh
Click to expand...

You may want to check some of the figures you're throwing around, they aren't real accurate.

The only way a FS employee could retire at age 55, unde FERS, is if they were born prior to 1948 and have 30 years of service, are an LEO or Firefighter.

The way it works, is any employee has to meet MRA, which is age 57 for anyone born after 1970, 55 for anyone born in 1948 or prior, sliding scale for those born between 1948 and 1970...AND you have to have 30 years of service.

If you retire at MRA and between 10-29 years, you take a 5% per year hit to your retirement, and lose eligibility for the SS Supplement.

At age 60 you need 20 years and you can retire without penalty, but you only get years of service x 1.0 of your high 3 base salary, but keep your SS Supplement eligibility.

You are correct about the leave after 15 years of service, 26 days per year. Depending on the source you want to look at, private sector employees on average had about 20 days of paid leave after 15 years, at 20 years, its 25 days a year for the private sector.

Consider paid leave a small perk for federal employees making about 80 cents on the dollar for similar jobs in the private sector.

Carry on...
 
BuzzH said:
You may want to check some of the figures you're throwing around, they aren't real accurate.

The only way a FS employee could retire at age 55, unde FERS, is if they were born prior to 1948 and have 30 years of service, are an LEO or Firefighter.

The way it works, is any employee has to meet MRA, which is age 57 for anyone born after 1970, 55 for anyone born in 1948 or prior, sliding scale for those born between 1948 and 1970...AND you have to have 30 years of service.

If you retire at MRA and between 10-29 years, you take a 5% per year hit to your retirement, and lose eligibility for the SS Supplement.

At age 60 you need 20 years and you can retire without penalty, but you only get years of service x 1.0 of your high 3 base salary, but keep your SS Supplement eligibility.

You are correct about the leave after 15 years of service, 26 days per year. Depending on the source you want to look at, private sector employees on average had about 20 days of paid leave after 15 years, at 20 years, its 25 days a year for the private sector.

Consider paid leave a small perk for federal employees making about 80 cents on the dollar for similar jobs in the private sector.

Carry on...
Click to expand...
Except for the retirement part.....which I begrudge no one.
 
BuzzH said:
You may want to check some of the figures you're throwing around, they aren't real accurate.

The only way a FS employee could retire at age 55, unde FERS, is if they were born prior to 1948 and have 30 years of service, are an LEO or Firefighter.

The way it works, is any employee has to meet MRA, which is age 57 for anyone born after 1970, 55 for anyone born in 1948 or prior, sliding scale for those born between 1948 and 1970...AND you have to have 30 years of service.

If you retire at MRA and between 10-29 years, you take a 5% per year hit to your retirement, and lose eligibility for the SS Supplement.

At age 60 you need 20 years and you can retire without penalty, but you only get years of service x 1.0 of your high 3 base salary, but keep your SS Supplement eligibility.

You are correct about the leave after 15 years of service, 26 days per year. Depending on the source you want to look at, private sector employees on average had about 20 days of paid leave after 15 years, at 20 years, its 25 days a year for the private sector.

Consider paid leave a small perk for federal employees making about 80 cents on the dollar for similar jobs in the private sector.

Carry on...
Click to expand...
Buzz H, Thanks for posting. If anyone knows the inside of how the USFS works it would be you. I have a friend who retired as a hydrologist and information officer in the USFS. She retired at 55. She had 30 years of service.

I dispute your claim that USFS employees are paid 80 cents on the dollar for comparable private sector employees. I have two sons who work in the private sector and one son who is self employed. Of the two, one is the union president and a machine tender for a papermill. His vacation time after 16 years, is no where near what you describe. He works long rotating shifts.

SHIFTING GEARS

I would like to know if you think it is an acceptable practice for the USFS to close what is a new and essentially low maintenance vault toilet system, paid for by the taxpayers, for funding reasons?

Do you think the USFS, when posting signs that they are closing a facility for lack of funding, are making a political statement?

During the COVID pandemic were you laid off by the USFS?

At the district level, do you often perceive that the USFS is top heavy, with too many generals and too few foot soldiers at that level?

Do you think that the USFS is slowly trying to go to a fee based system when allocating resources?

Do you think the USFS receives enough compensation for livestock grazing on national forest lands?

Do you think that at the district and region level, that the USFS often promotes people to those levels with more concern for their gender and race as opposed to their qualifications?

On average, how much time do you spend a month in the field as opposed to time spent in the office attending meetings? Would that be the norm for other USFS employees?

In this area, many of the trail systems are maintained by the Backcountry Horseman on a volunteer basis. Do you think they will perform this service with the restrooms locked up at the trailhead?

Finally, do you follow USFS guidelines when hiking and hunting in the national forest, by packing and hauling your own human waste out? I just had to ask.

If you can't answer some of the questions posed here, I understand. However, I think your candid responses as an insider would be very valuable.

just sayin...mh
 
Is there ANY government agency that's not too top heavy?

But this job actually calling a senator. Too often it's ONLY ***** on MM.
 
Very few of those questions are relevant to your issue. But here’s a list of questions that are:

did you forget to pick up your prescriptions?

if not is it possible you mixed them up?

does your hate for state and federal agencies start with your parents? When you were older? Aftera ticket maybe?

Are you comparing the managing of the toilets to how they handle grizzly bears?

If a bear chits in the woods would it be safe to assume it cannot use the USFS provide bathrooms?
 
hossblur said:
Is there ANY government agency that's not too top heavy?

But this job actually calling a senator. Too often it's ONLY ***** on MM.
Click to expand...
Earlier in May, I actually contacted the District Ranger in the SNF by letter about another matter involving a trail closure near the Montana line. She told me that the trail would likely be closed for 3 years because of budgetary constraints. It was essentially a form letter. I am not in the habit of contacting Senators or Congressman with complaints. However, when it comes to public land use and access that is where you need to go. I am sorry if that bothers you.
just sayin...mh
 
mightyhunter said:
Buzz H, Thanks for posting. If anyone knows the inside of how the USFS works it would be you. I have a friend who retired as a hydrologist and information officer in the USFS. She retired at 55. She had 30 years of service.

I dispute your claim that USFS employees are paid 80 cents on the dollar for comparable private sector employees. I have two sons who work in the private sector and one son who is self employed. Of the two, one is the union president and a machine tender for a papermill. His vacation time after 16 years, is no where near what you describe. He works long rotating shifts.

SHIFTING GEARS

I would like to know if you think it is an acceptable practice for the USFS to close what is a new and essentially low maintenance vault toilet system, paid for by the taxpayers, for funding reasons?

Do you think the USFS, when posting signs that they are closing a facility for lack of funding, are making a political statement?

During the COVID pandemic were you laid off by the USFS?

At the district level, do you often perceive that the USFS is top heavy, with too many generals and too few foot soldiers at that level?

Do you think that the USFS is slowly trying to go to a fee based system when allocating resources?

Do you think the USFS receives enough compensation for livestock grazing on national forest lands?

Do you think that at the district and region level, that the USFS often promotes people to those levels with more concern for their gender and race as opposed to their qualifications?

On average, how much time do you spend a month in the field as opposed to time spent in the office attending meetings? Would that be the norm for other USFS employees?

In this area, many of the trail systems are maintained by the Backcountry Horseman on a volunteer basis. Do you think they will perform this service with the restrooms locked up at the trailhead?

Finally, do you follow USFS guidelines when hiking and hunting in the national forest, by packing and hauling your own human waste out? I just had to ask.

If you can't answer some of the questions posed here, I understand. However, I think your candid responses as an insider would be very valuable.

just sayin...mh
Click to expand...

The leave no trace ethic says nothing about packing around human waste and if you want to talk funding then maybe look at who ran the committee in charge of funding for the Interior the majority of the last few decades and it will probably answer your questions.

No Trace Ethic - Safety and Crime Prevention - LEI | USDA Forest Service

www.fs.fed.us www.fs.fed.us
 
mightyhunter said:
Buzz H, Thanks for posting. If anyone knows the inside of how the USFS works it would be you. I have a friend who retired as a hydrologist and information officer in the USFS. She retired at 55. She had 30 years of service.

I dispute your claim that USFS employees are paid 80 cents on the dollar for comparable private sector employees. I have two sons who work in the private sector and one son who is self employed. Of the two, one is the union president and a machine tender for a papermill. His vacation time after 16 years, is no where near what you describe. He works long rotating shifts.

SHIFTING GEARS

I would like to know if you think it is an acceptable practice for the USFS to close what is a new and essentially low maintenance vault toilet system, paid for by the taxpayers, for funding reasons?

Do you think the USFS, when posting signs that they are closing a facility for lack of funding, are making a political statement?

During the COVID pandemic were you laid off by the USFS?

At the district level, do you often perceive that the USFS is top heavy, with too many generals and too few foot soldiers at that level?

Do you think that the USFS is slowly trying to go to a fee based system when allocating resources?

Do you think the USFS receives enough compensation for livestock grazing on national forest lands?

Do you think that at the district and region level, that the USFS often promotes people to those levels with more concern for their gender and race as opposed to their qualifications?

On average, how much time do you spend a month in the field as opposed to time spent in the office attending meetings? Would that be the norm for other USFS employees?

In this area, many of the trail systems are maintained by the Backcountry Horseman on a volunteer basis. Do you think they will perform this service with the restrooms locked up at the trailhead?

Finally, do you follow USFS guidelines when hiking and hunting in the national forest, by packing and hauling your own human waste out? I just had to ask.

If you can't answer some of the questions posed here, I understand. However, I think your candid responses as an insider would be very valuable.

just sayin...mh
Click to expand...

Down the list of questions, my opinion:

1. I cant speak to questions I don't know the answer to, seems you got an answer already. I have received lots of correspondence that due to covid-19 many established campgrounds, etc. were closed due to exposure to and to keep from spreading covid-19. Got stuff from the NPS, USFS, USFWS, BLM, ACOE, State Agencies, etc. etc. etc.

2. No, I think they're informing the public of the on-going budget constraints they have and responding honestly.

3. No.

4. No.

5. No.

6. No, but remember, its not an agency decision, its mandated by congress what they can charge for grazing.

7. No, OPM guidelines on hiring are strict.

8. I typically spend 16-20 days in the field a month, maybe 2-3 days spread over a month in the office (usually not full days). Usually end up donating some time as well. I cant answer for how other employees spend their time.

9. I know 2 guys up in your country that are members of the Shoshone chapter of BCH, and if you want to ask them, I'll give you their phone numbers. They're both good guys, so if you ask them how they intend to take a dump in the woods, they may tell you to go take a dump in your hat.

10. Seriously?
 
mightyhunter said:
Earlier in May, I actually contacted the District Ranger in the SNF by letter about another matter involving a trail closure near the Montana line. She told me that the trail would likely be closed for 3 years because of budgetary constraints. It was essentially a form letter. I am not in the habit of contacting Senators or Congressman with complaints. However, when it comes to public land use and access that is where you need to go. I am sorry if that bothers you.
just sayin...mh
Click to expand...

You misunderstood
I wish more people would. Too often dudes *****, but won’t take 2min. The senate Switchboatd, as well as my reps are on my contact list
 
I spoke with the District Ranger by telephone this morning. If you call the office and press O for the operator, you will get a person and not a recorded message. The conversation was pleasant and many issues were discussed. It is my understanding that the Shoshone National Forest has just received additional funding as a result of the Covid 19 problem. This will allow the district to soon open those restrooms that have been closed of late. We also discussed some trail issues including washouts and the lack of maintenance/signing of some trails. With the fast runoff currently underway, there will be some serious washouts of roads and trails within the district. I have no idea if funds will be available to do those repairs.

Over the years, I have taken it upon myself to clear some backcountry trails that have been impassable as the result of blowdown from beetle killed lodgepole. I have never sought permission to do this. I usually run out of gas and energy right before I reach the wilderness boundary. As long as I have the ability to do so, I will continue to saw them out with my old Jonsered chain saw. This includes a trail system here in Clark and also a couple of trails in the Upper Sunlight. I can think of one trail in particular that will really need some chainsaw action when the area opens up in July. If anyone cares to join me, I would welcome the assistance.

I was impressed to find out that the district ranger has taken it upon herself to keep the restroom, at the Jim Creek Trailhead, clean, stocked and open. It is a lightly used trailhead miles from the asphalt. Again, it is not every federal employee who would take it upon themselves to engage in that less than pleasant task.

just sayin...mh
 
mightyhunter said:
I spoke with the District Ranger by telephone this morning. If you call the office and press O for the operator, you will get a person and not a recorded message. The conversation was pleasant and many issues were discussed. It is my understanding that the Shoshone National Forest has just received additional funding as a result of the Covid 19 problem. This will allow the district to soon open those restrooms that have been closed of late. We also discussed some trail issues including washouts and the lack of maintenance/signing of some trails. With the fast runoff currently underway, there will be some serious washouts of roads and trails within the district. I have no idea if funds will be available to do those repairs.

Over the years, I have taken it upon myself to clear some backcountry trails that have been impassable as the result of blowdown from beetle killed lodgepole. I have never sought permission to do this. I usually run out of gas and energy right before I reach the wilderness boundary. As long as I have the ability to do so, I will continue to saw them out with my old Jonsered chain saw. This includes a trail system here in Clark and also a couple of trails in the Upper Sunlight. I can think of one trail in particular that will really need some chainsaw action when the area opens up in July. If anyone cares to join me, I would welcome the assistance.

I was impressed to find out that the district ranger has taken it upon herself to keep the restroom, at the Jim Creek Trailhead, clean, stocked and open. It is a lightly used trailhead miles from the asphalt. Again, it is not every federal employee who would take it upon themselves to engage in that less than pleasant task.

just sayin...mh
Click to expand...

Thank you for getting to the bottom of this. The time and resources involved in getting the facts will not go unnoticed. I found a YouTube video I think should be dedicated in your service to getting the answers:

 
MH

as you know 3 years ago i helped a guy that had several contracts for cleaing trails. We had deer creek and we had everything from the greybull river to kirwin. Everything from low water to high trail which tooks us 30 days. We took all of july to do it. I can not remember our deadline. From cutting trees to any rock bigger then your fist must be cleared.
Also it was clarified we didnt take care of washouts. On the venus trail which branches off the greybull we ran into a 300 plus yard washout. Impossible to fix. So we let the forest service kbow that the cc needed to come in. Well they failed us. They expected us to fix it. The guy i was helping was a on/off forest service employee. He has some great stories. So im not sure what became of the situation. Im sure this guy ripped into them.
The forest service hired a couple of girls to check trails. One being that worthless ron ostroms daughter. They went it like it was a day ride. No way did they check every trail. We went from jack creek to kirwin. About a 25-30 mile ride if i had to guess.

Also the north fork contract was awarded to the guy that owns shoshone outtfitters. Is john davis the owner? The trails were never checked. So many complaints. Also that triple a building service does trail cleaning. Boulders left in the middle of the trail. Trees left uncut.

Not sure how they pick and choose. I will say i enjoyed the job. The guy i helped works in the bridger teton forest several months a year as an employee for the forest service. Like i said he was one hell of a guy and still keep in touch. He someone got ahold me knowing that i knew the trails and could handle horses/mules and pack strings.

I use to help the backcountry horsemen when i was younger. My dad was a memeber. Well we quit. Using your horses/gear and fuel is at your own cost. Thats fine. Here to help right. Well here was our issue. We went up little sunlight to clean some trails. We made it clear we would help 2 days. Third day we were going to horn hunt. Was memorial weekend. So we helped for the 2 days. The lead memebers were on a power trip. Always had to be in the lead of the string of horses. Threw a fit that my dad and i wanted to horn hunt on day 3. Apprantley we were selfish for wanting to have father/son time.
Look i really appreciate what they do but that attitude drove us out. I can do the same thing by carrying a saw and clean trails as we go.

Also we would participate in the 4th of july parade with backcountry horseman in cody. The one lead guy had a wagon to pull. We had small pack strings for the show. Well we saw family and slightly got ahead to talk before we kept moving up. The guy threw a fit. He yelled the show is about me. I have to stay in the lead... soooo the parade was apprantley about his damn wagon
 

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