Ut elk

Dangbig

Active Member
Messages
126
To help utah manage elk it needs to be 4 point or better 3 years in a row then 2 years spike only in this 5 year rotation trends should be easy to manage
Because most people don’t know how to kill elk some good ones should cycle through. It needs to be draw state wide using LE points and price.
There should be a few true LE let’s say the San Juan, pilot, books, fish lake
Again LE price and points would eliminate point creep.
This is how I see our elk hunting future
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,230
To help utah manage elk it needs to be 4 point or better 3 years in a row then 2 years spike only in this 5 year rotation trends should be easy to manage
Because most people don’t know how to kill elk some good ones should cycle through. It needs to be draw state wide using LE points and price.
There should be a few true LE let’s say the San Juan, pilot, books, fish lake
Again LE price and points would eliminate point creep.
This is how I see our elk hunting future

If people didn't know how to kill elk, then elk numbers and herd quality wouldn't be an issue, would it?...
 

Dangbig

Active Member
Messages
126
We have tons of elk quality is debatable and everyone has an opinion on it
Seems most units have quite high bull to cow ratio.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
The only problem I see here is LE Elk it's causing all of this mess.

We currently have 30 LE Elk units in this state.

We have over 56,000 applicants that apply for LE Elk

We only offer 2,756 LE tags.

70% of our Elk herd currently is on LE Elk units.

So 2,756 LE tags Dictate our GS anybull hunts.

So what do we Do to fix this I have my Ideas But let's here everyone opinion on this.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,230
The only problem I see here is LE Elk it's causing all of this mess.

We currently have 30 LE Elk units in this state.

We have over 56,000 applicants that apply for LE Elk

We only offer 2,756 LE tags.

70% of our Elk herd currently is on LE Elk units.

So 2,756 LE tags Dictate our GS anybull hunts.

So what do we Do to fix this I have my Ideas But let's here everyone opinion on this.

Simple. You increase the tag count in all LE units, you lose the spike only hunts, you limit cow elk hunts to 5 days only sometime in Dec, you lose the 2 and 3 tags a person can have and limit it to one only, either bull or cow and not both.

If UT would get on board the way the other western states successfully manage, there wouldn't be any issues...
 

idahomuleyhunter

Active Member
Messages
426
I'm not sure less hunting directly equates to more elk, let alone more big elk. Everyone seems to think less hunting equates to more hunting for me. Not quite sure how that works out.

Also, I think most states offer 2nd and/or 3rd tags for cows(ID, MT, WY, UT, CO?). Cows compete for winter range with bulls too.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,326
To help utah manage elk it needs to be 4 point or better 3 years in a row then 2 years spike only in this 5 year rotation trends should be easy to manage
Because most people don’t know how to kill elk some good ones should cycle through. It needs to be draw state wide using LE points and price.
There should be a few true LE let’s say the San Juan, pilot, books, fish lake
Again LE price and points would eliminate point creep.
This is how I see our elk hunting future
"Needs to be" based off what facts or science?
Fair question.....
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
We better start coming up with some ideas for the Elk committee.
Structure is what needs to be in place.

This is my opinion for LE ELK/GS ELK

Archery gets split up into 2 - 15 day seasons.

September 1-15 early season archery for deer/elk state wide.

September 15-30 late season archery for deer/elk state wide.

September 15-24 Muzzleloader (this will overlap the Archery) LE/Elk/LE Deer.

October 1 -5 LE/GS 1st season rifle starts run it for 5 days.

October 10-15 LE/GS 2 season rifle hunt/spike hunt starts.

October 20-25 LE/GS 3 season rifle hunt starts/this will be running during the LE/LE deer/GS rifle deer hunt.

November add a LE/GS HAMS hunt for 9 days. The success will be extremely lower on this hunt.

Success will drop and we will be able to issue more tags. The key thing is making it harder.

GS Elk has Low success. because It's harder.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,230
We better start coming up with some ideas for the Elk committee.
Structure is what needs to be in place.

This is my opinion for LE ELK/GS ELK

Archery gets split up into 2 - 15 day seasons.

September 1-15 early season archery for deer/elk state wide.

September 15-30 late season archery for deer/elk state wide.

September 15-24 Muzzleloader (this will overlap the Archery) LE/Elk/LE Deer.

October 1 -5 LE/GS 1st season rifle starts run it for 5 days.

October 10-15 LE/GS 2 season rifle hunt/spike hunt starts.

October 20-25 LE/GS 3 season rifle hunt starts/this will be running during the LE/LE deer/GS rifle deer hunt.

November add a LE/GS HAMS hunt for 9 days. The success will be extremely lower on this hunt.

Success will drop and we will be able to issue more tags. The key thing is making it harder.

GS Elk has Low success. because It's harder.

Except I'd push the muzzleloader back to Oct 1-5 and all the rifle hunts back to reflect that change.

Bad stuff happens when archery tackle and firearms collide in the same season...
 

D33RHNTR

Member
Messages
67
And yet technology is hurting the herds. Or, maybe it's just wimpy deer that are in trouble because of tech...
I don’t believe technology is hurting any of our herds. Technology is possibly impacting certain animals reach an older age class, but it isn’t limiting herds since, you know, bucks and bulls don’t give birth and technology is really only used primarily for the take of the male gender of any ungulate species. Road kill, droughts, wildfires, predators, invasive species encroachment (animals and plants) and public grazing is what is limiting or “hurting” the herds. Pick any 2 on that list and eliminate them. You’ll see numbers rebound almost immediately.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,230
I don’t believe technology is hurting any of our herds. Technology is possibly impacting certain animals reach an older age class, but it isn’t limiting herds since, you know, bucks and bulls don’t give birth and technology is really only used primarily for the take of the male gender of any ungulate species. Road kill, droughts, wildfires, predators, invasive species encroachment (animals and plants) and public grazing is what is limiting or “hurting” the herds. Pick any 2 on that list and eliminate them. You’ll see numbers rebound almost immediately.

So then why all the bans?...
 

D33RHNTR

Member
Messages
67
We better start coming up with some ideas for the Elk committee.
Structure is what needs to be in place.

This is my opinion for LE ELK/GS ELK

Archery gets split up into 2 - 15 day seasons.

September 1-15 early season archery for deer/elk state wide.

September 15-30 late season archery for deer/elk state wide.

September 15-24 Muzzleloader (this will overlap the Archery) LE/Elk/LE Deer.

October 1 -5 LE/GS 1st season rifle starts run it for 5 days.

October 10-15 LE/GS 2 season rifle hunt/spike hunt starts.

October 20-25 LE/GS 3 season rifle hunt starts/this will be running during the LE/LE deer/GS rifle deer hunt.

November add a LE/GS HAMS hunt for 9 days. The success will be extremely lower on this hunt.

Success will drop and we will be able to issue more tags. The key thing is making it harder.

GS Elk has Low success. because It's harder.
When is the muzzleloader deer hunt? Or did I miss something?

The November HAMS LE elk hunt will be more successful than you’re thinking. To gain any ground it’ll have to be a late archery hunt. Too many units make bulls too vulnerable that time of year with any kind of firearm

But I like that season structure.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
When is the muzzleloader deer hunt? Or did I miss something?

The November HAMS LE elk hunt will be more successful than you’re thinking. To gain any ground it’ll have to be a late archery hunt. Too many units make bulls too vulnerable that time of year with any kind of firearm

But I like that season structure.
GS Muzzleloader deer will be the same dates as the LE muzzleloader I did forget that.

As far as the HAMS hunt goes it will be more of a challenge then with a rifle that’s why it’s a HAMS hunt.
Make it more difficult.
 

middlefork

Active Member
Messages
499
Imagine what we could do with eliminating public grazing and turning the wild horses into dog food as well
I love dreamers!
Good luck making those people understand that limiting their animals on the landscape to their detriment will only benefit a few others who just want to kill another species.

So far I don't see hunters contributing near enough influence, time or money to compete with those two.
 

D33RHNTR

Member
Messages
67
I love dreamers!
Good luck making those people understand that limiting their animals on the landscape to their detriment will only benefit a few others who just want to kill another species.

So far I don't see hunters contributing near enough influence, time or money to compete with those two.
If hunters understood that public grazing really dictated wild animal population allotments, you’d have a lot more support. But people are too stupid to understand how it works or don’t care enough to be educated on how it works, so it will never happen
 

D33RHNTR

Member
Messages
67
GS Muzzleloader deer will be the same dates as the LE muzzleloader I did forget that.

As far as the HAMS hunt goes it will be more of a challenge then with a rifle that’s why it’s a HAMS hunt.
Make it more difficult.
I just don’t see the difficulty being very hard on many units allowing firearms during that time of year. But I’m certainly open to trying it for a few years to see what happens. Personally I think guys will see that as an opportunity to hunt, and the first opportunity they get, they will take. And I predict success will skyrocket. But I’d love to be wrong
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
I just don’t see the difficulty being very hard on many units allowing firearms during that time of year. But I’m certainly open to trying it for a few years to see what happens. Personally I think guys will see that as an opportunity to hunt, and the first opportunity they get, they will take. And I predict success will skyrocket. But I’d love to be wrong
Sorry I totally disagree.
If you put pressure on elk makes them very difficult to hunt.
Look at the general season any bull very low numbers on success because of pressure.
Also look at the harvest success on the mid season LE elk they are lower because of pressure.
The GS elk November muzzleloader hunt extremely hard to hunt but definitely would be easier with a rifle.

That’s why the early rifle rut hunt is so successful.
No other hunts and hardly any pressure.
 
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slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,326
If hunters understood that public grazing really dictated wild animal population allotments, you’d have a lot more support. But people are too stupid to understand how it works or don’t care enough to be educated on how it works, so it will never happen
Help us understand how the "stupid people" are going to con the government agencies into cutting back on the worlds beef supply so that a very small fraction of the individual states population can have more elk to hunt for recreational purposes 🤔
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,326
It seems a little ironic to me how so many people have hated the spike hunts arguing that we are taking away future crop, yet here we are "bull heavy on almost all of our LE units" (as reported in last weeks workshop by biologists).
Beaver unit is 1:1 cow/bull ratio and other units are not far off that same path.

The original plan and forecast on killing spikes was that 10% of them would survive their first hunt and carry over into maturity before they potentially became 6.5 or older and had more appeal to hunters than just a 2.5-5.5 raghorn.

Well, 25 years worth of carryover spike bulls, very limited LE tags and "trophy hunting" has finally peaked out to where it's time for an evaluation and major overhaul.

Did us old timers that hunted back when even seeing a bull was almost as rare as seeing a unicorn think we'd get to a point where we had "too many bulls"?
Here we are.

One thing is for dang sure, we can't manage for numerous 380" bulls and have optimal opportunities to hunt when tags are very limited in the same token.
Fact.....we have GOT to kill some bulls, period.

What I see happening is what I will call the "DLL SYSTEM"
Deseret Land and Livestock.

1:1 bull/cow ratios and a lot of bulls needing harvested every single year.
Deseret doesn't kill spike bulls, nor is there even a 380" bull roaming the unit, but are a hell of a lot of 300-330" bulls and a hell of a lot of "opportunity"

Yes of course 95% of the people pay to hunt the ranch, but it's the same principle as a hypothetical public land hunt.
They keep bull numbers high, opportunity stays high and everyone is happy......everyone that is happy with a 7.5 year old 320" bull that is.
If they want a 380" bull, they go elsewhere.

We're obviously not killing enough spike bulls on the bottom of our units, and we limit tags to have some quality age class bulls on top, but now we are imploded in the middle.

We've got to start killing some bulls and growing some cows to keep the circle of elk life going.

I'm all for juggling weapon seasons around because it creates opportunities and crushes the points creep problems.

We have grown a lot of bulls over the last two decades, now let's utilize them and balance things out for decades to come.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
It seems a little ironic to me how so many people have hated the spike hunts arguing that we are taking away future crop, yet here we are "bull heavy on almost all of our LE units" (as reported in last weeks workshop by biologists).
Beaver unit is 1:1 cow/bull ratio and other units are not far off that same path.

The original plan and forecast on killing spikes was that 10% of them would survive their first hunt and carry over into maturity before they potentially became 6.5 or older and had more appeal to hunters than just a 2.5-5.5 raghorn.

Well, 25 years worth of carryover spike bulls, very limited LE tags and "trophy hunting" has finally peaked out to where it's time for an evaluation and major overhaul.

Did us old timers that hunted back when even seeing a bull was almost as rare as seeing a unicorn think we'd get to a point where we had "too many bulls"?
Here we are.

One thing is for dang sure, we can't manage for numerous 380" bulls and have optimal opportunities to hunt when tags are very limited in the same token.
Fact.....we have GOT to kill some bulls, period.

What I see happening is what I will call the "DLL SYSTEM"
Deseret Land and Livestock.

1:1 bull/cow ratios and a lot of bulls needing harvested every single year.
Deseret doesn't kill spike bulls, nor is there even a 380" bull roaming the unit, but are a hell of a lot of 300-330" bulls and a hell of a lot of "opportunity"

Yes of course 95% of the people pay to hunt the ranch, but it's the same principle as a hypothetical public land hunt.
They keep bull numbers high, opportunity stays high and everyone is happy......everyone that is happy with a 7.5 year old 320" bull that is.
If they want a 380" bull, they go elsewhere.

We're obviously not killing enough spike bulls on the bottom of our units, and we limit tags to have some quality age class bulls on top, but now we are imploded in the middle.

We've got to start killing some bulls and growing some cows to keep the circle of elk life going.

I'm all for juggling weapon seasons around because it creates opportunities and crushes the points creep problems.

We have grown a lot of bulls over the last two decades, now let's utilize them and balance things out for decades to come.
Yes sir I will admit.
I was wrong for saying shut down spike hunting. Where doing something right for sure.

We just need a good solid season date structure. We have to make the hunt harder.

I don’t know SLAM what do you think we should do with the points creep/GS season any bull?
 
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slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,326
Yes sir I will admit.
I was wrong for saying shut down spike hunting. Where doing something right for sure.

We just need a good solid season date structure. We have to make the hunt harder.

I don’t know SLAM what do you think we should do with the points creep/GS season any bull?
There's no easy solution, but I can see that it's time to create opportunity by shuffling dates and weapons around, lowering harvest rates.
And for God's sake......NO MORE TURNING TAGS BACK IN!
You draw, you hunt, period!
There should only be two reasons to turn a tag back in....military leave or serious medical reasons.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
There's no easy solution, but I can see that it's time to create opportunity by shuffling dates and weapons around, lowering harvest rates.
And for God's sake......NO MORE TURNING TAGS BACK IN!
You draw, you hunt, period!
There should only be two reasons to turn a tag back in....military leave or serious medical reasons.
absolutely I agree 100%
 

AZGuy

Active Member
Messages
495
The easy solution would be to restructure the hunt dates:
Archery - 15 days Sept 2nd - 17
Early Muzz - 7 days Sept 19- 25th ( reduce tags)
Early Rilfe - 7 days Sept 27- Oct 3 (reduce tags)
Spike Hunt- 5 days starting after gen deer.
Late rifle hunt - 7 days starting Thanks giving. Increase tags from muzzy and early rifle hunt)

Limit cow tags based on capacity and objectives
Reduce number of cow hunts.

Problem solved
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,230
It seems a little ironic to me how so many people have hated the spike hunts arguing that we are taking away future crop, yet here we are "bull heavy on almost all of our LE units" (as reported in last weeks workshop by biologists).
Beaver unit is 1:1 cow/bull ratio and other units are not far off that same path.

The original plan and forecast on killing spikes was that 10% of them would survive their first hunt and carry over into maturity before they potentially became 6.5 or older and had more appeal to hunters than just a 2.5-5.5 raghorn.

Well, 25 years worth of carryover spike bulls, very limited LE tags and "trophy hunting" has finally peaked out to where it's time for an evaluation and major overhaul.

Did us old timers that hunted back when even seeing a bull was almost as rare as seeing a unicorn think we'd get to a point where we had "too many bulls"?
Here we are.

One thing is for dang sure, we can't manage for numerous 380" bulls and have optimal opportunities to hunt when tags are very limited in the same token.
Fact.....we have GOT to kill some bulls, period.

What I see happening is what I will call the "DLL SYSTEM"
Deseret Land and Livestock.

1:1 bull/cow ratios and a lot of bulls needing harvested every single year.
Deseret doesn't kill spike bulls, nor is there even a 380" bull roaming the unit, but are a hell of a lot of 300-330" bulls and a hell of a lot of "opportunity"

Yes of course 95% of the people pay to hunt the ranch, but it's the same principle as a hypothetical public land hunt.
They keep bull numbers high, opportunity stays high and everyone is happy......everyone that is happy with a 7.5 year old 320" bull that is.
If they want a 380" bull, they go elsewhere.

We're obviously not killing enough spike bulls on the bottom of our units, and we limit tags to have some quality age class bulls on top, but now we are imploded in the middle.

We've got to start killing some bulls and growing some cows to keep the circle of elk life going.

I'm all for juggling weapon seasons around because it creates opportunities and crushes the points creep problems.

We have grown a lot of bulls over the last two decades, now let's utilize them and balance things out for decades to come.

Very limited bull tags gave the state a bull rich environment, not spike hunts...
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
The easy solution would be to restructure the hunt dates:
Archery - 15 days Sept 2nd - 17
Early Muzz - 7 days Sept 19- 25th ( reduce tags)
Early Rilfe - 7 days Sept 27- Oct 3 (reduce tags)
Spike Hunt- 5 days starting after gen deer.
Late rifle hunt - 7 days starting Thanks giving. Increase tags from muzzy and early rifle hunt)

Limit cow tags based on capacity and objectives
Reduce number of cow hunts.

Problem solved
Yes it needs a restructuring but it going to need more then what you proposed. I see less tags offered.
Maybe I just don’t understand what your getting at?

We need to make the hunt pressured/ harder.
We have a points creep with absolutely no end in sight.
You can add a lot more tags by stacking hunts on top of each other. like what I proposed earlier with season dates.
 

D33RHNTR

Member
Messages
67
Sorry I totally disagree.
If you put pressure on elk makes them very difficult to hunt.
Look at the general season any bull very low numbers on success because of pressure.
Also look at the harvest success on the mid season LE elk they are lower because of pressure.
The GS elk November muzzleloader hunt extremely hard to hunt but definitely would be easier with a rifle.

That’s why the early rifle rut hunt is so successful.
No other hunts and hardly any pressure.
Many late hunts are just as successful as the early rut hunts. Bulls are very vulnerable in November. Of course weather and location as well as other factors will play into it, but if bulls winter in an area where they are generally pretty exposed, they will take a hit with any type of fire arm used.

The general muzzy elk hunt isn’t a fair comparison IMO since the amount of hunters that participate in that particular season is far lower than the other season/weapon hunts. If it was as popular as a late LE hunt is, success would increase.

That’s just my worthless opinion. I’ve seen how easy late hunts can be on many units. I’ve also seen them turn into nightmares given the terrain they winter
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,231
I like the idea of splitting the archery season up into shorter seasons. One thing I would do is keep the first archery season in August, could maybe even do 3 separate archery hunts. 2 weeks in August, 2 weeks in September, and maybe even a 1 week 3rd season in September.

Something like this is what I picture.
1st arch: Aug 20th to Sept 2nd (ends on a Friday)
2nd arch: Sept 3rd to 16th
3rd arch: Sept 17th to 23rd
Muzzloader/hams: Sept 24th to 30th
Spike hunt: Oct 1st to 7th
LE 1st rifle: Oct 8th to 14th
LE 2nd rifle: Oct 15th to 21st
Rifle deer: Oct 22nd to 30th
2nd muzzy/hams: Nov 2nd to 6th (5 day hunt)
And maybe add a late archery elk hunt in November after the hams hunt????

Keep the deer hunts on a similar structure that they currently are on now, maybe slight modification to aline with the system above.

Adjust tag numbers for each season to keep harvest objectives in check.

One thing I like about this is you can choose to go after easier hunts, or hold out for tougher ones. You can spread out the hunters without over crowding any one season but still give out more tags in the long run.

Just a thought.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
Many late hunts are just as successful as the early rut hunts. Bulls are very vulnerable in November. Of course weather and location as well as other factors will play into it, but if bulls winter in an area where they are generally pretty exposed, they will take a hit with any type of fire arm used.
Fair enough yes I really can’t compare it to general season.
Like Jake just posted make it an LE archery hunt in November that would be a lot tougher hunt than any of them.
you could stack tags there with very little success.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
I like the idea of splitting the archery season up into shorter seasons. One thing I would do is keep the first archery season in August, could maybe even do 3 separate archery hunts. 2 weeks in August, 2 weeks in September, and maybe even a 1 week 3rd season in September.

Something like this is what I picture.
1st arch: Aug 20th to Sept 2nd (ends on a Friday)
2nd arch: Sept 3rd to 16th
3rd arch: Sept 17th to 23rd
Muzzloader/hams: Sept 24th to 30th
Spike hunt: Oct 1st to 7th
LE 1st rifle: Oct 8th to 14th
LE 2nd rifle: Oct 15th to 21st
Rifle deer: Oct 22nd to 30th
2nd muzzy/hams: Nov 2nd to 6th (5 day hunt)
And maybe add a late archery elk hunt in November after the hams hunt????

Keep the deer hunts on a similar structure that they currently are on now, maybe slight modification to aline with the system above.

Adjust tag numbers for each season to keep harvest objectives in check.

One thing I like about this is you can choose to go after easier hunts, or hold out for tougher ones. You can spread out the hunters without over crowding any one season but still give out more tags in the long run.

Just a thought.
I like it Jake.
see where getting somewhere maybe don’t have the hams hunt at all in November.
just do an LE archery in November I really think we could stack tags there that would be a tough hunt.
 

AZGuy

Active Member
Messages
495
Yes it needs a restructuring but it going to need more then what you proposed. I see less tags offered.
Maybe I just don’t understand what your getting at?

We need to make the hunt pressured/ harder.
We have a points creep with absolutely no end in sight.
You can add a lot more tags by stacking hunts on top of each other. like what I proposed earlier with season dates.
What I have proposed is shorter season dates, less tags during the rut and less soike and cow harvest and the elimination of a second early rifle hunt. populations would increase dramatically. Also, they could charge a point for soike hull land cow hunts. That would reduce creep.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,326
Lots of good ideas but we need to remember how much we complain about our animals being hunted non stop from Aug thru Nov and that they don't get a break.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
Lots of good ideas but we need to remember how much we complain about our animals being hunted non stop from Aug thru Nov and that they don't get a break.
I took that into consideration on my season date structure.
September kinda busy month but October was 5 days on 5 days off till all 3 rifle hunts where completed.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
Messages
2,638
Just over 8% of the LE applicants last year were in the archery pool. Yet they already get 25% of the tags. 25% of the tags for 8% of the applicants, and they need more! Lots more. Go figure…

Utah does not have a bull elk problem. If you want to identify an issue with elk herds it’s that we aren’t killing enough bulls. Of course those that think the rifle needs to move dates so we can get more 400” bulls to sell won’t like it, but we increase tags across the board so we can kill more bulls, not just move people through with little to no success. The herds on many units would benefit from a reduction in bulls. The Beaver fly over bull:cow ratio discussion was eye opening! Time to start giving out more Beaver (and almost everywhere else) tags.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
Just over 8% of the LE applicants last year were in the archery pool. Yet they already get 25% of the tags. 25% of the tags for 8% of the applicants, and they need more! Lots more. Go figure…

Utah does not have a bull elk problem. If you want to identify an issue with elk herds it’s that we aren’t killing enough bulls. Of course those that think the rifle needs to move dates so we can get more 400” bulls to sell won’t like it, but we increase tags across the board so we can kill more bulls, not just move people through with little to no success. The herds on many units would benefit from a reduction in bulls. The Beaver fly over bull:cow ratio discussion was eye opening! Time to start giving out more Beaver (and almost everywhere else) tags.
Vanilla
I'm not the one saying we will get more 400" bulls it don't bother me at all if we ever see another 400" bull again.

If archery was a high success. I would be targeting them but it's not it is a lower success with a lot less tags.

We need to issue more tags period. Now is this time to do it the rifle hunt needs restructure with Different dates and shorter days. Early season Success is high and late season success is high.
The rifle hunt with new season dates will make it harder and make more tags available, Then the way the season dates currently is now.
So if we want to knock down the points creep this is how you do it.

Having an archery hunt in November will be extremely hard the success will be way low. Definitely a lot lower then the late season rifle hunt.

Now is the time to put a dent into the points creep so lets do it.
 

middlefork

Active Member
Messages
499
Thanks Vanilla, I was just thinking about posting those archery statistics. Even being an archer they are pretty eye opening.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
Messages
2,638
the rifle hunt needs restructure with Different dates and shorter days.

I realize you and I are not going to see eye-to-eye on this one, and that's okay. But it doesn't "need" to do anything. You "want" it to change, but it doesn't "need" to change. I have this discussion with people on wants vs needs all the time.

Many people, myself included, know it doesn't "need" to change. Some sub-sets of hunters "want" it changed. There is a difference.

The OP started out with "To help Utah manage elk...."

Changing seasons isn't managing elk at all. It's addressing point creep (and giving an even larger advantage to the smallest subset of Utah hunters...but I digress), which is managing hunters. The point of the thread was about managing elk, and if we want to manage elk differently, we can do that. It should result in increased bulls killed on almost every single LE unit. I would dare say every...but it's dangerous to speak in absolutes and I admittedly don't know enough about every unit to make that definitive absolute statement. I am very comfortable talking in the vast majority, however, including our "premium" units. Increase tags, kill more bulls. Lots of things will be accomplished by this without upending our system entirely like some are proposing.

We don't have a bull elk problem in the state of Utah.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,326
The only way to address killing more bulls is by killing more bulls.
Issuing more tags by juggling dates SHOULD increase kills, but it wouldn't really change hunter success percentage on paper.

If the state really wants to knock the bulls down for a quick fix scenario, they will simply increase rifle tags and leave dates alone.

It'll be interesting to see how this all unfolds.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
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1,818
Just over 8% of the LE applicants last year were in the archery pool. Yet they already get 25% of the tags. 25% of the tags for 8% of the applicants, and they need more! Lots more. Go figure…

Utah does not have a bull elk problem. If you want to identify an issue with elk herds it’s that we aren’t killing enough bulls. Of course those that think the rifle needs to move dates so we can get more 400” bulls to sell won’t like it, but we increase tags across the board so we can kill more bulls, not just move people through with little to no success. The herds on many units would benefit from a reduction in bulls. The Beaver fly over bull:cow ratio discussion was eye opening! Time to start giving out more Beaver (and almost everywhere else) tags.
It is only 8% because many hunters are holding out for that mythical 400" bull with a rifle in September and don't want to burn their precious bonus points on a less successful hunt like archery. Let's start to change expectations and give out A LOT more tags and guys will be more willing to burn points on a less successful hunt if they know they can draw it a few times in their lifetime rather than once in their lifetime.

We really can solve two major problems of point creep and excessive bulls in many units - give A LOT more tags by adjusting seasons/weapon types and kill more excess bulls that fall in that 280"-330" range.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
It is only 8% because many hunters are holding out for that mythical 400" bull with a rifle in September and don't want to burn their precious bonus points on a less successful hunt like archery. Let's start to change expectations and give out A LOT more tags and guys will be more willing to burn points on a less successful hunt if they know they can draw it a few times in their lifetime rather than once in their lifetime.

We really can solve two major problems of point creep and excessive bulls in many units - give A LOT more tags by adjusting seasons/weapon types and kill more excess bulls that fall in that 280"-330" range.
Yes you took the words out of my mouth. I am truly not worried about it.
The last 10 years I have never heard of the board talking about moving season dates around till now.
This is in the works and they are strongly looking at season date changes and they know it needs to happen.

We need a good season structure plan put in place and the only thing that has been getting in the way for the last decade is the early rifle rut hunt.
This hunt is extremely easy hunt. I have been on quit a few of them.
It needs to be harder period.
 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
It is only 8% because many hunters are holding out for that mythical 400" bull with a rifle in September and don't want to burn their precious bonus points on a less successful hunt like archery. Let's start to change expectations and give out A LOT more tags and guys will be more willing to burn points on a less successful hunt if they know they can draw it a few times in their lifetime rather than once in their lifetime.

We really can solve two major problems of point creep and excessive bulls in many units - give A LOT more tags by adjusting seasons/weapon types and kill more excess bulls that fall in that 280"-330" range.
Not sure if I agree with what some are saying on this thread. I think some units could make some slight tweaks like Beaver which they did this year in offering more tags. I don't think we need a complete overhaul. If you compare how Utah's elk management program has done compared to its deer management program why fix elk when its not necessarily broken? If you want to hunt 280" to 330" bulls every year why not just go hunt Colorado? I personally don't mind Utah being very exclusive on tags and a place where you have a legit chance at a monster once you draw. If you want more opportunity you can get that elsewhere in states like Idaho, Colorado and Wyoming. Just my two cents.
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,231
It is only 8% because many hunters are holding out for that mythical 400" bull with a rifle in September and don't want to burn their precious bonus points on a less successful hunt like archery. Let's start to change expectations and give out A LOT more tags and guys will be more willing to burn points on a less successful hunt if they know they can draw it a few times in their lifetime rather than once in their lifetime.

We really can solve two major problems of point creep and excessive bulls in many units - give A LOT more tags by adjusting seasons/weapon types and kill more excess bulls that fall in that 280"-330" range.
☝️this right here, why is it only 8% because the best dates to hunt are for the rifle season. You put an archery season the same dates as the rifle hunt now and I guarantee that 8% will increase substantially.
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,231
Not sure if I agree with what some are saying on this thread. I think some units could make some slight tweaks like Beaver which they did this year in offering more tags. I don't think we need a complete overhaul. If you compare how Utah's elk management program has done compared to its deer management program why fix elk when its not necessarily broken? If you want to hunt 280" to 330" bulls every year why not just go hunt Colorado? I personally don't mind Utah being very exclusive on tags and a place where you have a legit chance at a monster once you draw. If you want more opportunity you can get that elsewhere in states like Idaho, Colorado and Wyoming. Just my two cents.
What about the fact that most bulls will never be bigger then 330 in there lifetime? Just because you are taking more bulls from the population does not mean there will never be another 400" bull killed.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
What about the fact that most bulls will never be bigger then 330 in there lifetime? Just because you are taking more bulls from the population does not mean there will never be another 400" bull killed.
Jake your absolutely correct.

Look at Arizona monster bulls and lots of opportunity and less Elk.
Why because of the way they set the season dates.
 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
What about the fact that most bulls will never be bigger then 330 in there lifetime? Just because you are taking more bulls from the population does not mean there will never be another 400" bull killed.
If a 400 inch bull is a statistical outlier then if you make the population size smaller there is a smaller chance of producing one. Law of large numbers. Im not holding out for a 400 inch bull but if you increase the kill of 280 - 300 class bulls you certainly will have a harder time finding one over 350. Hence my comment if you want to hunt smaller bulls why not buy over the counter in our neighboring states that offers those tags in abundance? Example: Colorado

With that being said I bet if you looked at the bulls most UT LE hunters harvest each year they are between 300 and 330 inches on average. I was talking to someone who guides on some of the more exclusive units in Utah and he said people throw around 350 inches a lot but most hunters are filling their tags with much smaller.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
Messages
1,818
Not sure if I agree with what some are saying on this thread. I think some units could make some slight tweaks like Beaver which they did this year in offering more tags. I don't think we need a complete overhaul. If you compare how Utah's elk management program has done compared to its deer management program why fix elk when its not necessarily broken? If you want to hunt 280" to 330" bulls every year why not just go hunt Colorado? I personally don't mind Utah being very exclusive on tags and a place where you have a legit chance at a monster once you draw. If you want more opportunity you can get that elsewhere in states like Idaho, Colorado and Wyoming. Just my two cents.
The bulk of the excess bulls on many of our units are in that 260-330" range. I guarantee you a guy that has waited 15-25 years to hunt a bull with his rifle is not going to shoot a 280" bull or a 5 point, but a bowhunter who knows he can hunt every 6-8 years will shoot a bull like that in a heartbeat.

I am ok keeping a couple units focused on a more premium/quality experience, but I think you could do that along with issuing more tags for a late bowhunt or something along those lines.

Arizona was mentioned above - think about their late bowhunts. How in the world do they get guys to apply for that hunt? Because they know they can hunt it often and their expectations are not unrealistic like they are currently in Utah.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
I am ok keeping a couple units focused on a more premium/quality experience, but I think you could do that along with issuing more tags for a late bowhunt or something along those lines.

Arizona was mentioned above - think about their late bowhunts. How in the world do they get guys to apply for that hunt? Because they know they can hunt it often and their expectations are not unrealistic like they are currently in Utah.
Yes! That was my point Thank you.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
Messages
1,818
If a 400 inch bull is a statistical outlier then if you make the population size smaller there is a smaller chance of producing one. Law of large numbers. Im not holding out for a 400 inch bull but if you increase the kill of 280 - 300 class bulls you certainly will have a harder time finding one over 350. Hence my comment if you want to hunt smaller bulls why not buy over the counter in our neighboring states that offers those tags in abundance? Example: Colorado

With that being said I bet if you looked at the bulls most UT LE hunters harvest each year they are between 300 and 330 inches on average. I was talking to someone who guides on some of the more exclusive units in Utah and he said people throw around 350 inches a lot but most hunters are filling their tags with much smaller.
Truth be told, most hunters think a 320" bull is a 350" bull. A 300" bull is a great bull anywhere - people need to get comfortable with that because that is really where we are headed. The days of a dozen 400" bulls per year are gone because it is not sustainable to only issue 30 tags in a given unit (# is made up).
 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
Jake your absolutely correct.

Look at Arizona monster bulls and lots of opportunity and less Elk.
Why because of the way they set the season dates.
True, that's why hunters looking for more opportunity should apply down there. I do. AZ is a fantastic elk state.

However, I think it would be a little messed up to change the game on those who have waited 25 + years in Utah to hunt a certain area/season. If I was an exclusive rifle hunter holding out for a one of those early rifle tags for over two decades I would be a little upset if they decided to take those away and force me to hunt with a bow if I wanted a rut hunt.
 

elkhunterUT

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1,818
True, that's why hunters looking for more opportunity should apply down there. I do. AZ is a fantastic elk state.

However, I think it would be a little messed up to change the game on those who have waited 25 + years in Utah to hunt a certain area/season. If I was an exclusive rifle hunter holding out for a one of those early rifle tags for over two decades I would be a little upset if they decided to take those away and force me to hunt with a bow if I wanted a rut hunt.
Isn't it also a little messed up to allow hunters who have waited 25+ years to expect a 380-400" bull on these units when that is not even remotely possible?

Times have changed and so has the resource - let's adapt and make the most of the situation for the bulk of people involved.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,230
If a 400 inch bull is a statistical outlier then if you make the population size smaller there is a smaller chance of producing one. Law of large numbers. Im not holding out for a 400 inch bull but if you increase the kill of 280 - 300 class bulls you certainly will have a harder time finding one over 350. Hence my comment if you want to hunt smaller bulls why not buy over the counter in our neighboring states that offers those tags in abundance? Example: Colorado

With that being said I bet if you looked at the bulls most UT LE hunters harvest each year they are between 300 and 330 inches on average. I was talking to someone who guides on some of the more exclusive units in Utah and he said people throw around 350 inches a lot but most hunters are filling their tags with much smaller.

There are other variables at play to grow big antlers, such as diet and genetics. Overtime, as you keep killing the biggest on the mountain, you eventually wind up with sub-par genetics. Even with limited tags available, the sub-par genetics begin to be the dominate trait.

When this happens, the law of large numbers produces a lot of 320 bulls.

Do not be surprised when CO goes complete draw in the near future...
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
why not buy over the counter in our neighboring states that offers those tags in abundance? Example: Colorado
Why spend $800 on an elk tag.
True, that's why hunters looking for more opportunity should apply down there. I do. AZ is a fantastic elk state.

However, I think it would be a little messed up to change the game on those who have waited 25 + years in Utah to hunt a certain area/season. If I was an exclusive rifle hunter holding out for a one of those early rifle tags for over two decades I would be a little upset if they decided to take those away and force me to hunt with a bow if I wanted a rut hunt.
Just like elkhunterUtah said Times have changed points Creep is skyrocketing.
Time to adjust.

We have been seeing the writing on the wall for the last 10 years.
So do I think it's messed up no, it's right there black and white it was going to happen.
But what is really messed up here is allowing Rifle hunters to hunt bulls during the Rut.

They know it is an easy hunt. That's why we have so many people applying for it residence and none residence.

Because Utah is the only state that offers it period.
 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
Isn't it also a little messed up to allow hunters who have waited 25+ years to expect a 380-400" bull on these units when that is not even remotely possible?

Times have changed and so has the resource - let's adapt and make the most of the situation for the bulk of people involved.
I think there is quite the spectrum of what hunters want out there and its almost impossible to make everyone happy in one state if that is all they hunt. Some want opportunity and others want size/trophy. Some want meat and others want sport. Plus these needs change year to year.

The way the West is set up right now if you expand your view into neighboring states you really can meet most of those needs/wants tailored to your specific circumstances. Utah is meeting the desires of certain hunters who value chances to hunt big bulls without a ton of other hunters in really favorable season dates. Other states do not offer that. Some offer other exciting opportunities like hunting more often because the season dates are different or more primitive weapon choices.

I guess my problem/concern is that people get all gung ho around one part of that hunting spectrum that is important to them and want to turn a states management plan upside down to meet their individual goal whether they be on the opportunity or trophy side of the fence.
 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
Why spend $800 on an elk tag.

Just like elkhunterUtah said Times have changed points Creep is skyrocketing.
Time to adjust.

We have been seeing the writing on the wall for the last 10 years.
So do I think it's messed up no, it's right there black and white it was going to happen.
But what is really messed up here is allowing Rifle hunters to hunt bulls during the Rut.

They know it is an easy hunt. That's why we have so many people applying for it residence and none residence.

Because Utah is the only state that offers it period.
I think that is really subjective. The people applying to hunt those elk in the rut with a rifle don't feel its messed up. Of course its an easier hunt but is that always bad? Some people want an easier hunt with a chance at a stud bull every once in a lifetime and that's why they are willing to wait half their adult life to do it. Point creep sucks I agree 100% the reality is there are too many hunters trying to enjoy the same pastime. You are right that times are changing but that doesn't mean we just crank out tags to meet the new demand. I unfortunately think that we will simply reach a point where we don't get to have the entitlement of hunting every year.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
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1,818
I think there is quite the spectrum of what hunters want out there and its almost impossible to make everyone happy in one state if that is all they hunt. Some want opportunity and others want size/trophy. Some want meat and others want sport. Plus these needs change year to year.

The way the West is set up right now if you expand your view into neighboring states you really can meet most of those needs/wants tailored to your specific circumstances. Utah is meeting the desires of certain hunters who value chances to hunt big bulls without a ton of other hunters in really favorable season dates. Other states do not offer that. Some offer other exciting opportunities like hunting more often because the season dates are different or more primitive weapon choices.

I guess my problem/concern is that people get all gung ho around one part of that hunting spectrum that is important to them and want to turn a states management plan upside down to meet their individual goal whether they be on the opportunity or trophy side of the fence.
you are missing the point - we have 2 major problems. Point creep with no end in sight and surplus bulls (and not enough cows) on a lot of the LE units that is headed for a bigger problem if we don't start now to get our arms around it.

I hunt all western states to meet my various hunting wishes and know what you are saying, but this situation is specific to Utah and has to be addressed independently of what anyone else is doing or how they do it.
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,231
I think that is really subjective. The people applying to hunt those elk in the rut with a rifle don't feel its messed up. Of course its an easier hunt but is that always bad? Some people want an easier hunt with a chance at a stud bull every once in a lifetime and that's why they are willing to wait half their adult life to do it. Point creep sucks I agree 100% the reality is there are too many hunters trying to enjoy the same pastime. You are right that times are changing but that doesn't mean we just crank out tags to meet the new demand. I unfortunately think that we will simply reach a point where we don't get to have the entitlement of hunting every year.
I think you can change the season structure, offer more tags, and keep the quality up all at the same time. I'm not advocating to drastically change the quality of the herd.

And to all those people with 20+ points most have had every opportunity to burn those points on some damn good tags over that time frame. If you have 25 points you have past up some very very good hunts to get to this point. I don't feel sorry for them in the slightest. Also there are giant bulls killed on the late hunts every year not to mention the fact in every limited Entry unit I have been in during October you can still find bulls rutting. The October seasons would still be a damn fun hunt.

Also, like you said and I definitely agree with you most people see a 320-330 bull and call it 350 I'm sure I've done it as well. The majority of people are not gonna have a shot at a 350+ bull as it is.
 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
I think you can change the season structure, offer more tags, and keep the quality up all at the same time. I'm not advocating to drastically change the quality of the herd.

And to all those people with 20+ points most have had every opportunity to burn those points on some damn good tags over that time frame. If you have 25 points you have past up some very very good hunts to get to this point. I don't feel sorry for them in the slightest. Also there are giant bulls killed on the late hunts every year not to mention the fact in every limited Entry unit I have been in during October you can still find bulls rutting. The October seasons would still be a damn fun hunt.

Also, like you said and I definitely agree with you most people see a 320-330 bull and call it 350 I'm sure I've done it as well. The majority of people are not gonna have a shot at a 350+ bull as it is.
I would be open to slight changes. It just feels like there is a huge movement right now among some Utah hunters to drastically change a bunch of stuff. Feels like we need to pump the brakes a little on all the change discussion before we wind up making some that we regret. We ought to realize some of the positive things about our states hunting situation. We have some fantastic elk hunting in Utah and Im okay waiting my turn to enjoy it.

I was never a very active commenter on this forum because it used to be a place where you could go and get info, post success, share/read about cool stories etc. Lately its this huge debate platform where many are trying to turn the world upside down in UT with technology restrictions changes, season date changes, complaining about this and that.

I get where people are coming from, we have had some SERIOUS population growth the last few years and sometimes adjustments are needed whether that be to rules, tag allotment, or maybe just expectations?
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
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2,638
Notice how it's the archery hunters that see the issue here? That's not ironic at all, I promise...
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
Notice how it's the archery hunters that see the issue here? That's not ironic at all, I promise...
You notice that the rifle hunters don’t see an issue?
I know it is an issue.
You know how many youth hunters I have taken out. 11 to be exact. And every one of them but one has harvested a bull.

Last years youth hunter actually was my hardest one and do you know why? Because of pressure from the archery hunters.

The hunter I took out last year for the early rifle hunt we spotted the bull walked 75 yards from the side by side and called him in and shot him at 520 yards yeah it’s a really tough hunt with a rifle.

It’s all good. like I said before the board has never brought up the season dates.
Now it’s in the works. guess will see how it all plays out.

By the way I have harvested 98% of my elk with a rifle.
Only one cow with a bow.
 
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Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
Vanilla, I hunt all Weapons types, my main reason for choosing archery is because it's easier to get tags. I would much rather hint then sit on the sidelines every year.
Exactly Jake.
That's why I do it.
I don't want to sit on the side lines either even though I suck at archery. It's a challenge I have never Harvested a bull with my Bow.

That why I keep bringing up Archery lower success easier to add tags.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
Messages
1,818
Notice how it's the archery hunters that see the issue here? That's not ironic at all, I promise...
I am not sure what bowhunter or archer hurt you, but I want to personally apologize for them so you can bury the hatchet and move on :ROFLMAO:

This is not an archery vs rifle situation. I am primarily a bowhunter for the reasons JakeH noted, but I have killed bulls in Utah with a rifle (expo tag) and muzzleloader (LE tag). I have nothing against rifle or muzzy hunters, nor am I trying to get one over on them as you always seem to insist.

With any issue, we should look for win-win scenarios for the greater good of everyone involved. We have a couple key issues at play here: (1) insane point creep with very limited tags; (2) surplus of bulls and not enough cows which is a recipe for worse things to come with our herds.
Why not get creative with season dates and weapon types to try and solve these 2 problems at the same time?

As I stated earlier, most guys that have waited 20+ years for a Utah rifle tag aren't shooting a 5 point or a 280" type 6 point bull, but there are plenty of bowhunters who are willing to kill those bulls, especially if they know they can hunt every 6-8 years or so.

To just dig in your heels and try to keep rifle hunts in the peak of the rut with very limited tag #'s ultimately hurts everyone in the end given our current situation. Nobody likes change and I get that, but sometimes in life, change has to happen or the result is worse than any impact change brings.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
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2,638
This is not an archery vs rifle situation.

But it is. You're trying to take something that has been in place for longer than many hunters have been alive away from the group that makes up the largest segment of the hunting community and give it to a super minority.

I could say we need to end the extended hunt and say it isn't attempting to harm archery hunters, but the fact is it would harm archery hunters. So just because I say it over and over again that it is not to hurt archery hunters doesn't make it true.

No archery hunters have hurt me. Some of my best friends (and my brother) are archery hunters and I go hunt with them regularly. But there is a segment of archery hunters that have become the most entitled whiners on the planet, and all they want is more...more...more. They won't stop until they get exactly what they want, and that harms the vast majority of us. Yes, that bugs me. It always will.

And when the SFW president speaks on the record at a Wildlife Board meeting about needing to move the rifle out of the rut so we can sell tags for more 400 inch bulls...any mention of doing this is going to raise eyebrows in my world. Call me skeptical...but I don't trust that this is about anything other than wanting to get what these people want and screw the rest of us.
 

middlefork

Active Member
Messages
499
I hear the argument but in reality the point creep issue is pretty much already relegated to any weapon and muzzy.

More archery tags is trying to put a square peg in a round hole. MOST, if not all of those applying for any weapon tags are applying because of the weapon choice first. You are not going to have some massive migration to archery tags.

The elk committee will get to look at all kinds of solutions and problems to come up with the new plan and what that may look like nobody knows. But I really think the only solution to point creep, if there is one is more any weapon and muzzy tags not trying to force people into archery.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
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1,818
Tell me how Arizona gets anyone to apply for late bowhunts then?

I'll help you with that - they accept the lower success rate knowing they can go more often.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
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2,638
Tell me how Arizona gets anyone to apply for late bowhunts then?

I'll help you with that - they accept the lower success rate knowing they can go more often.

I've never said people won't apply. People are applying right now. If there is a hunt to be drawn, there will be a certain amount of people that apply no matter what.

When was the last time we saw a LE hunt on any species in Utah go undersubscribed?

Don't make this about something it isn't, and certainly don't put words in my mouth to try and defeat me in some faux debate.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
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1,818
So what are you worried about? There is demand to HUNT when it gets right down to it, irrespective of weapon type, so why not use that demand to move the needle a bit on the point creep problem by adding a bunch of lower success type hunts and kill some excess "lower tier" bulls that need culling? This is most easily accomplished using archery hunts and there is nothing more to it than that, but go ahead and keep thinking the archery guys are out to get you.

I have never once said to take away all rifle hunts, just move the most successful weapon out of the most vulnerable time. And for the record, I don't need to feel like I won a debate with you. I am simply sharing my opinion as you are.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,230
I think you can change the season structure, offer more tags, and keep the quality up all at the same time. I'm not advocating to drastically change the quality of the herd.

And to all those people with 20+ points most have had every opportunity to burn those points on some damn good tags over that time frame. If you have 25 points you have past up some very very good hunts to get to this point. I don't feel sorry for them in the slightest. Also there are giant bulls killed on the late hunts every year not to mention the fact in every limited Entry unit I have been in during October you can still find bulls rutting. The October seasons would still be a damn fun hunt.

Also, like you said and I definitely agree with you most people see a 320-330 bull and call it 350 I'm sure I've done it as well. The majority of people are not gonna have a shot at a 350+ bull as it is.

You absolutely can. You can choose some specific units to maintain ultimate trophy quality that require top points. You can make season dates reflect high points requirements. You can combine the two that would also require top points.

The remaining units can be had with lower point holdings just so people have the ability to shoot a 320" bull 4 or 5 times in their lifetimes.

This situation is certainly specific to UT as UT has created this situation. Oh wait, CO already does that.
 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
So what are you worried about? There is demand to HUNT when it gets right down to it, irrespective of weapon type, so why not use that demand to move the needle a bit on the point creep problem by adding a bunch of lower success type hunts and kill some excess "lower tier" bulls that need culling? This is most easily accomplished using archery hunts and there is nothing more to it than that, but go ahead and keep thinking the archery guys are out to get you.

I have never once said to take away all rifle hunts, just move the most successful weapon out of the most vulnerable time. And for the record, I don't need to feel like I won a debate with you. I am simply sharing my opinion as you are.
You could probably meet in the middle and add more archery tags in select units and leave the rifle alone with the same season and tags. Maybe that could solve the problem without ruffling feathers?

Although I am an archery hunter too and would prefer to not have those LE hunts overran. Archery is hard enough let alone sharing the mountain with truck loads of dudes out there scaring everything away. It would be like hunting the Uintas where you don't even believe the elk talk because every experience you have with elk calls ends up being another hunter. I think it should be a requirement of hunters who think we need tons more tags added to go hunt the Uintas for a couple seasons so they know what its like when there are too many people. Its not even fun when its crowded.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,230
You could probably meet in the middle and add more archery tags in select units and leave the rifle alone with the same season and tags. Maybe that could solve the problem without ruffling feathers?

Although I am an archery hunter too and would prefer to not have those LE hunts overran. Archery is hard enough let alone sharing the mountain with truck loads of dudes out there scaring everything away. It would be like hunting the Uintas where you don't even believe the elk talk because every experience you have with elk calls ends up being another hunter. I think it should be a requirement of hunters who think we need tons more tags added to go hunt the Uintas for a couple seasons so they know what its like when there are too many people. Its not even fun when its crowded.

Except the Unitas is general OTC. Adding tags to a limited entry unit is completely different.
 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
Except the Unitas is general OTC. Adding tags to a limited entry unit is completely different.
The only thing that makes a LE hunt different from the Uintas is tag numbers. If you shut down the Uintas for a few years you would have some great bulls there too. If you opened up the Beaver unit to everyone and their brother it would become awful in a very short amount of time. That is my point, I don't want LE units to suck. We don't want no tainted Beaver @roadrunner...
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
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1,818
The Beaver unit specifically is already on a path to "sucking" if we don't start killing some excess bulls and save some cows. The data is available and was shared in the WB working session on 3/31.

We do not have to swing the pendulum all the way from one end to the other on tag #'s especially on the more premium units and no one is proposing that we make our LE hunts like GS units. I am quite confident that wouldn't happen anyway, but we legitimately have an opportunity to increase tags in a scenario that is both good for hunters (helps point creep) and for the elk herd (culls excess bulls)...win-win!!
 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
The Beaver unit specifically is already on a path to "sucking" if we don't start killing some excess bulls and save some cows. The data is available and was shared in the WB working session on 3/31.

We do not have to swing the pendulum all the way from one end to the other on tag #'s especially on the more premium units and no one is proposing that we make our LE hunts like GS units. I am quite confident that wouldn't happen anyway, but we legitimately have an opportunity to increase tags in a scenario that is both good for hunters (helps point creep) and for the elk herd (culls excess bulls)...win-win!!
I talked to the biologist on Beaver as well and am aware of the situation there. They are proposing to add 13 more tags there this year. Sounds like that issue is being addressed.
 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
I talked to the biologist on Beaver as well and am aware of the situation there. They are proposing to add 13 more tags there this year. Sounds like that issue is being addressed.

Screen Shot 2022-04-13 at 4.30.51 PM.png
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
more any weapon and muzzy tags not trying to force people into archery.
I'm confused we are not forcing anyone into archery it's a choice here for everyone.
We need more tags allocated to help with point creep correct?

I made a choice in 2016 to switched over from rifle to archery because I was seeing the points creep getting out of control.

I have lots of hunting buddies that have made that switch I'm not saying they need to switch.
But I think you will find a lot of your lower and medium point holders will switch when they see how easy it is to draw a tag.

I think they will switch over if we have more tags available. Because they want to try it because they know they will get another tag in 10 years or so.

But it's hard to sell that if it's 20 years to draw a tag.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
560
I talked to the biologist on Beaver as well and am aware of the situation there. They are proposing to add 13 more tags there this year. Sounds like that issue is being addressed.
With the season dates that we have in place now 13 tags is all?

With a new season date structure you can double that if you make it harder. just saying
 
Last edited:

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,231
I talked to the biologist on Beaver as well and am aware of the situation there. They are proposing to add 13 more tags there this year. Sounds like that issue is being addressed.
13 tags does nothing for that unit if it truly does have a 1:1 ratio like they claimed in that meeting.

Only 4 extra archery tags??? They could Double the proposed number and probably not make a dent in that herd.
 

middlefork

Active Member
Messages
499
I'm confused we are not forcing anyone into archery it's a choice here for everyone.
We need more tags allocated to help with point creep correct?

I made a choice in 2016 to switched over from rifle to archery because I was seeing the points creep getting out of control.

I have lots of hunting buddies that have made that switch I'm not saying they need to switch.
But I think you will find a lot of your lower and medium point holders will switch when they see how easy it is to draw a tag.

I think they will switch over if we have more tags available. Because they want to try it because they know they will get another tag in 10 years or so.

But it's hard to sell that if it's 20 years to draw a tag.
Your bias is slanted to encouraging more people to apply for archery tags. I get it. I do.

I hunted strictly archery for about 15 years before going DH for deer and multi season for GS elk..

I drew a LE archery bull tag with 9 points when the unit only took 7 to guarantee a tag. I did this after applying for muzzle loader for for 8 years in a different unit that I was not close to drawing. I did it because I was getting to the point I didn't think I could hunt much longer at the level to justify the tag. For me it was a OIL tag. I knew I would never draw again.

But I never would have considered changing if I had not been very familiar with what an archery hunt would take.

I'll give you extra archery tags if you will take a longer waiting period between applying. As it stands you will mainly be recycling current archery hunters faster.
 

middlefork

Active Member
Messages
499
Actually the more I think about it why not change the waiting period to longer?
I wonder how many of those low point holder are on their second go around.
 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
Only 13 tags on a unit with 1:1 ratio?
I disagree, 13 more tags (34% increase) on a unit the size of beaver is a pretty big increase. The last thing we need is a knee jerk reaction. Even if its greater than 80:100 bull to cow ratio its not like we are taking about a herd size that 10,000 head. Going off of old 2016 fly over data they said the herd size was estimate at 1550 elk. I am trying to find the updated head count estimate but not seeing it. I am also trying to see if calves are counted or excluded in the data.

 

Vitalwave

Active Member
Messages
142
13 tags does nothing for that unit if it truly does have a 1:1 ratio like they claimed in that meeting.

Only 4 extra archery tags??? They could Double the proposed number and probably not make a dent in that herd.
I think its wise they don't knee jerk on something like that. If they fly over again in Feb of next year could always add more in 2023.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,326
I disagree, 13 more tags (34% increase) on a unit the size of beaver is a pretty big increase. The last thing we need is a knee jerk reaction. Even if its greater than 80:100 bull to cow ratio its not like we are taking about a herd size that 10,000 head. Going off of old 2016 fly over data they said the herd size was estimate at 1550 elk. I am trying to find the updated head count estimate but not seeing it. I am also trying to see if calves are counted or excluded in the data.

Pardon me if I missed it somewhere, but I didn't see you mention the new crop of bulls coming here in May and the approximate number of survivors this fall from last Springs calves that will be legal spikes this year.
I would dare place a bet saying that would total more than the 13 they'll take off the top if success is 100%.

If 500 cows have at least 50% calf crop and 50% are bulls, we're adding at least 100 new bulls a year.
Are we losing 100 bulls a year to hunters, predation, winter kill or natural causes?

Obviously these numbers are hypothetical of course, but I am low balling on purpose for benefit of doubt.

13 additional tags seems low for a unit with biological concerns to me.

Hopefully it helps and they can reasses next winter.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
Messages
1,818
I just watched the Southern RAC meeting held yesterday and Mike Wardle shared additional info on the Beaver unit elk flight from this year. Here are the details as food for thought:

Beaver Unit Herd objective = 1,050
Actual Herd Estimate = 860
Elk observed on flight = 644
# of Cows/Calves = 350
# of Bulls = 294 (sightability issues for some bulls would put this # closer to 350)
Mature Bulls = 70%

So assuming there are 350 total bulls on the Beaver unit given the sightability issues, 245 of those are mature bulls (5 point or bigger). If you give 51 tags total which is what is being recommended for 2022, lets assume a 75% success rate across all hunts (probably high). That means ONLY 38 bulls are being harvested. I won't share my opinion since it offends some here, but the conclusion is pretty clear.

The other issue at play here on these units where there is not a lot of harvest is that the elk population is aging overall and with that age comes reductions in productivity. These units are headed for a nose dive. Units like the Wasatch and Manti where there is much higher harvest #'s, have a younger overall population and seem to be doing well producing elk to keep up with higher harvest.

This is ACTUAL data-do with it what you will (y)
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
4,230
The only thing that makes a LE hunt different from the Uintas is tag numbers. If you shut down the Uintas for a few years you would have some great bulls there too. If you opened up the Beaver unit to everyone and their brother it would become awful in a very short amount of time. That is my point, I don't want LE units to suck. We don't want no tainted Beaver...

No, an uncontrolled OTC unit is not the same as increasing tags in an LE by 10% or even 20%. Never said make an LE unit an OTC unit.

It's a no brainer though that if you greatly limit or even shut down hunting for a while, any unit will improve...
 
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