UT LE Late bull hunt change

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,718
It seems to me that one way to help a few big bulls make it through the late hunts would be to make them muzzleloader instead of any weapon (rifle).

I believe there is a greater amount of "long Range" shooting going on during those late hunts than the early season. I know there is some LR Shooting during the Early rifle hunts but a lot of times the bulls stick to the trees and dark timber where the cows are that time of year. Not always though.
However, during that late hunt the bulls are off in groups by themselves, and a lot of the time are visible from great distances which lends itself to getting shot at from far away ridges. I would like to see the late LE elk hunts get changed to a primitive muzzleloader season. This would allow a greater number of tags to be issued while reducing the success greatly.
 

Servehim

Very Active Member
Messages
1,509
Totally agree, these LR proponents are taking the hunt out of hunting. If you don't have the skills to get within 300 yards or don't want to work for the opportunity to harvest.....stick to the rifle range. Just saying
 

Elkslayer1125

Active Member
Messages
149
Great idea! Let’s also stop shooting spikes on LE units. Every spike you shoot is 1 big bull a LE hunter won’t be able to shoot a few years down the line. We shoot spikes on our premier elk units but imagine the outrage if they opened a 2 point deer unit on the Henries, Pauns, Oak Creek etc…it’s unbelievable.
 

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,718
Great idea! Let’s also stop shooting spikes on LE units. Every spike you shoot is 1 big bull a LE hunter won’t be able to shoot a few years down the line. We shoot spikes on our premier elk units but imagine the outrage if they opened a 2 point deer unit on the Henries, Pauns, Oak Creek etc…it’s unbelievable.

The only problem with getting rid of the spike hunts is that you would get rid of all your opportunity. Most people would rather hunt spikes every year than a bigger bull every 15.
 

Elkslayer1125

Active Member
Messages
149
The only problem with getting rid of the spike hunts is that you would get rid of all your opportunity. Most people would rather hunt spikes every year than a bigger bull every 15.
Except we already have opportunity hunts, otc archery elk which is unlimited. And people can hunt the general season rifle and muzzleloader elk hunts. I understand people want the opportunity to go hunting, but if people want more big bulls and big bull tags we can’t keep killing 100’s or spikes every year.
 

BradN

Active Member
Messages
176
Except we already have opportunity hunts, otc archery elk which is unlimited. And people can hunt the general season rifle and muzzleloader elk hunts. I understand people want the opportunity to go hunting, but if people want more big bulls and big bull tags we can’t keep killing 100’s or spikes every year.
You already have the three season any bull tag that has pulled hunters from the archery pool, and now you want to put spike hunters in the same pool. Now you have diluted opportunity for over 15,000 hunters and moved the any bull tag into a draw status (it's already close to being that). Hard pass.
 

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,718
Except we already have opportunity hunts, otc archery elk which is unlimited. And people can hunt the general season rifle and muzzleloader elk hunts. I understand people want the opportunity to go hunting, but if people want more big bulls and big bull tags we can’t keep killing 100’s or spikes every year.
Sure, we want more big bulls. I'm just not wanting to wait a decade or two in between elk tags.
Most people don't archery hunt. Thats just the way it is. So, saying people can just do that really isn't an option.
The other thing is that each unit has herd objectives, The maximum number of elk the unit can support. If your killing 150 spikes a year off the Manti, and now you want to carry over those spikes until they are 6 years old, all of a sudden there are 900 more bulls in that herd. Whatever the objective is, you now have to get rid of 900 cows to make room for the extra mouths. That's potentially 800 or more calves a year with 1/2 being bull calves.
 

Elkslayer1125

Active Member
Messages
149
Sure, we want more big bulls. I'm just not wanting to wait a decade or two in between elk tags.
Most people don't archery hunt. Thats just the way it is. So, saying people can just do that really isn't an option.
The other thing is that each unit has herd objectives, The maximum number of elk the unit can support. If your killing 150 spikes a year off the Manti, and now you want to carry over those spikes until they are 6 years old, all of a sudden there are 900 more bulls in that herd. Whatever the objective is, you now have to get rid of 900 cows to make room for the extra mouths. That's potentially 800 or more calves a year with 1/2 being bull calves.
So what did we do before the spike hunts? We just had more elk on our units? Right now we don’t have very many deer, if we can’t have deer might as well have more big bulls/elk. More big bulls mean more tags meaning fewer years to draw a tag. Or why don’t we institute managment elk hunts where it’s 5 point or smaller instead shooting off all the bulls when their spikes. Maybe I’m in the minority, but I would rather hunt big bulls every 5-10 years and general season elk every year vs hunting spikes every year.
 

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,718
So what did we do before the spike hunts? We just had more elk on our units? Right now we don’t have very many deer, if we can’t have deer might as well have more big bulls/elk. More big bulls mean more tags meaning fewer years to draw a tag. Or why don’t we institute managment elk hunts where it’s 5 point or smaller instead shooting off all the bulls when their spikes. Maybe I’m in the minority, but I would rather hunt big bulls every 5-10 years and general season elk every year vs hunting spikes every year.
Before the spike hunts and limited entry tags it was open season. I guarantee you don't want to go back to that.

You won't be hunting every 5-10 years. The numbers just don't add up. There are too many people wanting tags
Last year there was 3849 applicants for 136 Early Manti tags. That is 1 in 28 years to get a tag. There was 620 people who applied with zero points in 2021. Even if they increased permits by 50% that would bring the tags to 204. it would still be 19 years to get a tag.
I'm just not willing to hunt elk every 19 years.
 

Elkslayer1125

Active Member
Messages
149
So then what’s the point of changing the late season to a muzzleloader hunt? I think not shooting spikes would have a far greater impact then making the late season a muzzleloader hunt. Although I would be on board with either change, neither is likely to happen anytime soon.
 

highfastflyer

Very Active Member
Messages
1,372
So then what’s the point of changing the late season to a muzzleloader hunt? I think not shooting spikes would have a far greater impact then making the late season a muzzleloader hunt. Although I would be on board with either change, neither is likely to happen anytime soon.
To provide more opportunity. The bull to cow ratios on many of those spike units is still far too high and many people enjoy the meat. We need to create MORE opportunity not less and both spike elk hunts and issuing more muzzleloader tags and making it more primitive again or even going to traditional archery would increase opportunity.
 

JPickett

Very Active Member
Messages
1,099
I would like to see the late LE elk hunts get changed to a primitive muzzleloader season. This would allow a greater number of tags to be issued while reducing the success greatly.
Think I posted this before. Need to make some changes to get to a primitive season

 

Dconcrete

Active Member
Messages
228
Eliminating the spike hunt will not increase bull elk numbers on the units. It may have a positive impact temporarily but longer term, they’ll kill more cows as was pointed out. Utah has a carrying capacity problem. You can’t just explode the number of bulls without consequence.

As far as eliminating the spike hunt, yes, let’s take it away from kids and from aging adults because you think you’ll be hunting bulls every 10 years. Which is a mathematical falsehood by the way.

Additionally, how many more people would you like to cram into the any bull Units?

The numbers may have changed, I haven’t looked in awhile, and I may be misquoting, but, there’s around 3500 head of elk on the south slope of the uintahs. How many more people should we send up there to chase them?

Additionally, I can’t believe how many people are FOR reduced opportunities. Spoken like the person who won’t be giving up anything. Or “thinks” they won’t anyways.
 

Elkslayer1125

Active Member
Messages
149
Eliminating the spike hunt will not increase bull elk numbers on the units. It may have a positive impact temporarily but longer term, they’ll kill more cows as was pointed out. Utah has a carrying capacity problem. You can’t just explode the number of bulls without consequence.

As far as eliminating the spike hunt, yes, let’s take it away from kids and from aging adults because you think you’ll be hunting bulls every 10 years. Which is a mathematical falsehood by the way.

Additionally, how many more people would you like to cram into the any bull Units?

The numbers may have changed, I haven’t looked in awhile, and I may be misquoting, but, there’s around 3500 head of elk on the south slope of the uintahs. How many more people should we send up there to chase them?

Additionally, I can’t believe how many people are FOR reduced opportunities. Spoken like the person who won’t be giving up anything. Or “thinks” they won’t anyways.
How many people do you want to cram onto the Manti or Wasatch or Book Cliffs to chase spikes? Most units are below objective already anyways but yeah let’s kill off all the bulls before we ever even know what they are? In 2015 alone on the manti 345 LE bulls were killed and 415 spikes were killed. I’m not sure what the numbers are recently but I’m sure it’s similar. It just makes no sense to me, other states that don’t slaughter their spikes seem to be doing just fine.
 

Dconcrete

Active Member
Messages
228
You’re correct about other states. But the one major impact Utah has with its elk is their hands are tied on elk numbers due to agreements and legal agreements with cattlemen associations.

Where are you getting your info about these units being under? The actual data still shows Utah in general over its elk numbers.

Killing bulls has no bearing on elk numbers. Killing cows does. Growing bull numbers, will hurt the herd at this point. Because unless you can get an overall higher agreed upon number of elk in the state, more cows will die.

Face the facts folks. Hunting is popular. But equally as much, hunting is dying. Fact is, hunters numbers are declining. Doesn’t matter what point creep is doing. Hunter numbers are in decline.

Hunting is popular, and If you remove the amount of people from the field that you’d like to remove, there’ll be no one left to support what hunting is left. I’d much rather see people in the field hunting, getting kids involved and growing the sport.

Hunting spikes is a good practice FOR THE CURRENT SITUATION. And that situation most likely will not be changing soon. And what I mean by current situation is this, current management plans and agreements with various entities.

I cannot believe the amount of folks who think removing people from the field will be a benefit to them.

You have to have opportunity coupled with success for people to enjoy the sport. Success for most people is any animal that makes them happy. And time spent in the woods with friends and family.

My 13 and 15 year old got spikes this year. On a multi season tag. But hey,
Let’s take that away.
 

Deerlove

Long Time Member
Messages
5,449
Great idea! Let’s also stop shooting spikes on LE units. Every spike you shoot is 1 big bull a LE hunter won’t be able to shoot a few years down the line. We shoot spikes on our premier elk units but imagine the outrage if they opened a 2 point deer unit on the Henries, Pauns, Oak Creek etc…it’s unbelievable.
Where are the 17k hunters going to go?? PS I dont spike hunt
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,243
You’re correct about other states. But the one major impact Utah has with its elk is their hands are tied on elk numbers due to agreements and legal agreements with cattlemen associations.

Where are you getting your info about these units being under? The actual data still shows Utah in general over its elk numbers.

Killing bulls has no bearing on elk numbers. Killing cows does. Growing bull numbers, will hurt the herd at this point. Because unless you can get an overall higher agreed upon number of elk in the state, more cows will die.

Face the facts folks. Hunting is popular. But equally as much, hunting is dying. Fact is, hunters numbers are declining. Doesn’t matter what point creep is doing. Hunter numbers are in decline.

Hunting is popular, and If you remove the amount of people from the field that you’d like to remove, there’ll be no one left to support what hunting is left. I’d much rather see people in the field hunting, getting kids involved and growing the sport.

Hunting spikes is a good practice FOR THE CURRENT SITUATION. And that situation most likely will not be changing soon. And what I mean by current situation is this, current management plans and agreements with various entities.

I cannot believe the amount of folks who think removing people from the field will be a benefit to them.

You have to have opportunity coupled with success for people to enjoy the sport. Success for most people is any animal that makes them happy. And time spent in the woods with friends and family.

My 13 and 15 year old got spikes this year. On a multi season tag. But hey,
Let’s take that away.
This is probably the most intelligent and common sense posts I have ever read.
I could not agree more and I know I could not have made such intelligent post.
Thanks
 

Elkslayer1125

Active Member
Messages
149
You’re correct about other states. But the one major impact Utah has with its elk is their hands are tied on elk numbers due to agreements and legal agreements with cattlemen associations.

Where are you getting your info about these units being under? The actual data still shows Utah in general over its elk numbers.

Killing bulls has no bearing on elk numbers. Killing cows does. Growing bull numbers, will hurt the herd at this point. Because unless you can get an overall higher agreed upon number of elk in the state, more cows will die.

Face the facts folks. Hunting is popular. But equally as much, hunting is dying. Fact is, hunters numbers are declining. Doesn’t matter what point creep is doing. Hunter numbers are in decline.

Hunting is popular, and If you remove the amount of people from the field that you’d like to remove, there’ll be no one left to support what hunting is left. I’d much rather see people in the field hunting, getting kids involved and growing the sport.

Hunting spikes is a good practice FOR THE CURRENT SITUATION. And that situation most likely will not be changing soon. And what I mean by current situation is this, current management plans and agreements with various entities.

I cannot believe the amount of folks who think removing people from the field will be a benefit to them.

You have to have opportunity coupled with success for people to enjoy the sport. Success for most people is any animal that makes them happy. And time spent in the woods with friends and family.

My 13 and 15 year old got spikes this year. On a multi season tag. But hey,
Let’s take that away.
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Here’s just a few units the Manti, Pavant, Book Cliffs, and North Slope 3 corners. All of these numbers are from the Utah hunt planner. How does shooting 400 spikes on a unit not affect the herd? It directly affects the herd because there’s now 400 less bulls. How about instead of the multi season tag we make people choose between muzzy, rifle, and archery?
 

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,718
How many people do you want to cram onto the Manti or Wasatch or Book Cliffs to chase spikes? Most units are below objective already anyways but yeah let’s kill off all the bulls before we ever even know what they are? In 2015 alone on the manti 345 LE bulls were killed and 415 spikes were killed. I’m not sure what the numbers are recently but I’m sure it’s similar. It just makes no sense to me, other states that don’t slaughter their spikes seem to be doing just fine.

Using that number, if we carry those spikes over until they are 6 years old, adding a similar amount each successive year, we now have approximately 2500 extra bulls in the herd. Are you willing to kill an extra 2500 cow elk to fit those extra bulls? Cause the management plan is pretty straight forward on the number of elk allowed in each management area.
 

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,718
Here’s just a few units the Manti, Pavant, Book Cliffs, and North Slope 3 corners. All of these numbers are from the Utah hunt planner. How does shooting 400 spikes on a unit not affect the herd? It directly affects the herd because there’s now 400 less bulls. How about instead of the multi season tag we make people choose between muzzy, rifle, and archery?
Exactly... There are 400 less bulls per year which gives room for 400 more cows to make more elk.

I absolutely believe that we should have to pick a season. The multi season was stupid from the start.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
7,895
Great idea! Let’s also stop shooting spikes on LE units. Every spike you shoot is 1 big bull a LE hunter won’t be able to shoot a few years down the line. We shoot spikes on our premier elk units but imagine the outrage if they opened a 2 point deer unit on the Henries, Pauns, Oak Creek etc…it’s unbelievable.
The idea behind the spike hunt is not to save bulls, it's meant to provide opportunity while managing bull numbers on those LE units.

It is a low estimate that approximately 10% of the spike bulls survive the hunts and live to be carryover into mature bulls of the future.

The average age class harvested on LE bulls is 6.5 years old. 5.5+ years of upcoming spike and raghorn bulls is a heck of a lot of bulls growing each year.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
7,895
Using that number, if we carry those spikes over until they are 6 years old, adding a similar amount each successive year, we now have approximately 2500 extra bulls in the herd. Are you willing to kill an extra 2500 cow elk to fit those extra bulls? Cause the management plan is pretty straight forward on the number of elk allowed in each management area.
Perfectly stated!
 

Deerlove

Long Time Member
Messages
5,449
The idea behind the spike hunt is not to save bulls, it's meant to provide opportunity while managing bull numbers on those LE units.

It is a low estimate that approximately 10% of the spike bulls survive the hunts and live to be carryover into mature bulls of the future.

The average age class harvested on LE bulls is 6.5 years old. 5.5+ years of upcoming spike and raghorn bulls is a heck of a lot of bulls growing each year.
I sure hope more than 10 percent survive. I would of thought at least 50.
 

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