Utah’s Deer Herd

SanPitch

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What do you think is the biggest problems with Utah’s deer herd, what has caused the decline, and what actions do you think should be taken to fix it. Here’s my thoughts, I want to hear yours.

I think the biggest problem isn’t too much buck hunting in general, maby how we buck hunt lately is a problem however, 1000 yard muzzleloaders on a hunt that’s supposed to be primitive, and then making a hunt with those muzzleloaders right in the middle of the rut? And how they pushed the rifle hunt into the rut when the bucks are most vulnerable, on top of the higher chance of winter weather with a later hunt pushing the deer down? Maby we could shorten the hunts to reduce harvest, yet still give people the chance.

But even on top of that I believe we have much bigger problems than too much harvest. Let’s start with the 10,000 deer that are hit by cars each year, they might want to think about putting more money into preventing this. As well as the large number of mortality due to lack of decent winter range and the high number of predators, surely there is some sort of better winter range improvement that can be done. And many fawns are killed by coyotes each year, now Utah has obviously put in place a plan to reduce coyotes, but where do people go to stack up coyotes to earn a dollar? The desert, where the coyotes aren’t much of a problem, nobody hunts coyotes where they need to be hunted like up in the mountains, in all honesty it’s too difficult and inconvenient. But that leaves these coyotes to rapidly take down fawns. And as far as lions go, as much as some people think they are not a problem, I do, with a decrease in deer numbers (cougars biggest prey) we must have the same decrease in lion numbers until the deer numbers go back up. It’s the basic idea of carrying capacity that we all know.
 
My quick and easy thought is that the biggest reason for the current decline in overall mule deer populations through out the west is drought. Loss of traditional winter range due too development, predators, including bears, are also a factor. I don’t think the hunt dates in Utah have any negative impact on overall herd health, and have an extremely minimal effect on trophy quality. This years rifle dates are traditional and seem to happen every 5 or 6 years. Modern technology and hunting methods definitely have an impact on trophy quality. I also don’t think that this has anything to do with stupidly or laziness or lack of effort on the part of the UDWR. The auto/deer collision problem is significant but it’s probably not reasonable to expect the UDWR to fix this. They try in areas that are historically hard on deer, but that is about all their resources allow. Struggling deer populations isn’t a problem unique to Utah. I hunt several states throughout the west every year and Utah’s mule deer are doing better than most. I also hunt several of the units that have been derided on here as being terrible and do not share the same doom and gloom attitude. Some years are better than others but I always find good bucks and have a great experience.
 
What do you think is the biggest problems with Utah’s deer herd, what has caused the decline, and what actions do you think should be taken to fix it. Here’s my thoughts, I want to hear yours.

I think the biggest problem isn’t too much buck hunting in general, maby how we buck hunt lately is a problem however, 1000 yard muzzleloaders on a hunt that’s supposed to be primitive, and then making a hunt with those muzzleloaders right in the middle of the rut? And how they pushed the rifle hunt into the rut when the bucks are most vulnerable, on top of the higher chance of winter weather with a later hunt pushing the deer down? Maby we could shorten the hunts to reduce harvest, yet still give people the chance.

But even on top of that I believe we have much bigger problems than too much harvest. Let’s start with the 10,000 deer that are hit by cars each year, they might want to think about putting more money into preventing this. As well as the large number of mortality due to lack of decent winter range and the high number of predators, surely there is some sort of better winter range improvement that can be done. And many fawns are killed by coyotes each year, now Utah has obviously put in place a plan to reduce coyotes, but where do people go to stack up coyotes to earn a dollar? The desert, where the coyotes aren’t much of a problem, nobody hunts coyotes where they need to be hunted like up in the mountains, in all honesty it’s too difficult and inconvenient. But that leaves these coyotes to rapidly take down fawns. And as far as lions go, as much as some people think they are not a problem, I do, with a decrease in deer numbers (cougars biggest prey) we must have the same decrease in lion numbers until the deer numbers go back up. It’s the basic idea of carrying capacity that we all know.
How can I put this…. You make almost no sense. But, I really hope you’re just being facetious. There are too many things to address here, but let’s try…

1. There are not 1,000 yard muzzleloaders. LR muzzleloaders are extremely expensive and most of the general hunting population will never hold one, let alone hunt with one.

2. What rifle hunt runs in the middle of the rut for deer? None. The end.

3. Just because you don’t hunt coyotes in the mountains, doesn’t mean many of us don’t.

4. Bucks don’t have a uterus and they can’t carry babies. You could kill nearly every buck and still have bucks left to breed does. A buck can take care of a hell of a lot of does during the rut.

5. Science and common sense are the two things needed to address the decline in mule deer we are seeing. This is why the Utah Fish and Game will not solve this. They would issue tags for elephants if people would buy them. Money talks as biology walks… away.
 
How can I put this…. You make almost no sense. But, I really hope you’re just being facetious. There are too many things to address here, but let’s try…

1. There are not 1,000 yard muzzleloaders. LR muzzleloaders are extremely expensive and most of the general hunting population will never hold one, let alone hunt with one.

2. What rifle hunt runs in the middle of the rut for deer? None. The end.

3. Just because you don’t hunt coyotes in the mountains, doesn’t mean many of us don’t.

4. Bucks don’t have a uterus and they can’t carry babies. You could kill nearly every buck and still have bucks left to breed does. A buck can take care of a hell of a lot of does during the rut.

5. Science and common sense are the two things needed to address the decline in mule deer we are seeing. This is why the Utah Fish and Game will not solve this. They would issue tags for elephants if people would buy them. Money talks as biology walks… away.
I don’t need your negativity towards me, I have my opinion, and I asked for yours, you told me that I was wrong but you never said what you think the problem was, I seen tons of deer rutting this rifle hunt as it was pushed back to the start of the rut (I never said that one was in the middle of the rut) and the late LE muzzy hunt pretty much is in a good part of the rut, that’s why it’s a LE hunt on a general unit... and you act like I said the big problem is over harvest, I literally said that THAT IS NOT THE BIG PROBLEM, how do I not make sense to you? Do you need me too dumb it down a bit? Read what I said once more and try again bud
 
I don’t need your negativity towards me, I have my opinion, and I asked for yours, you told me that I was wrong but you never said what you think the problem was, I seen tons of deer rutting this rifle hunt as it was pushed back to the start of the rut (I never said that one was in the middle of the rut) and the late LE muzzy hunt pretty much is in a good part of the rut, that’s why it’s a LE hunt on a general unit... and you act like I said the big problem is over harvest, I literally said that THAT IS NOT THE BIG PROBLEM, how do I not make sense to you? Do you need me too dumb it down a bit? Read what I said once more and try again bud
It’s hard to take what you say with any seriousness because you sound like you’re probably still in Jr. High and likely found the WiFi password taped to the back of your mom’s bedroom door.

Just remember that you are the guy (boy?) who said muzzleloaders are shooting 1000 yards and you’re also the one who can’t take a bit of criticism when you’ve asked for it. How many bucks did you see mount does? Zero. You saw some sparing, a little lip curling and that’s about it. The hunt wasn’t pushed anywhere close to the rut. Your basic lack of knowledge makes what you say more of a joke and leads me to believe you most likely are a teenager (or at the very least act like one)
 
The rifle hunt wasn’t “moved” into the rut. Every 6th or 7th year it rolls back to start a week later to keep the third Saturday of the month as the opener and every so often, you have late October weather and deer become more vulnerable. Six years from now, it will open on the 17th like it did last year and be over before bucks even think about the rut. Personally, I’d like to see set calendar dates for seasons and not a certain day of the week. If a hunter can’t make it out until Saturday, oh well, too bad.
 
The rifle hunt wasn’t “moved” into the rut. Every 6th or 7th year it rolls back to start a week later to keep the third Saturday of the month as the opener and every so often, you have late October weather and deer become more vulnerable. Six years from now, it will open on the 17th like it did last year and be over before bucks even think about the rut. Personally, I’d like to see set calendar dates for seasons and not a certain day of the week. If a hunter can’t make it out until Saturday, oh well, too bad.
Interesting, I didn’t know that, but like I said, I do not think buck hunting is the problem, these guys are acting like that’s what I said and it’s the opposite of what I said, should I say it again? I believe we have much bigger problems
 
Yeah, but I have a real question... What's really causing the decline of Utah's deer herd?
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We, the mighty keyboard warriors and armchair biologists, will solve this problem right here on MM. the thousands of posts just like this one couldn’t solve the problem, but this one will!
Give it up bud, take your negative self somewhere else, I know this isn’t going to help but I know some people and I’ve been hoping to put together some information that I can present to the division. Nobody asked you to reply too this thread, if you want too fight go somewhere else
 
SanPitch,

Remove early rifle hunts.
Go back to primitive muzzleloaders
Rifle season, 5 day hunt only
Put limitations on long range equipment
Sidexside and atv restrictions
3 pt or better units
Close down all the dang roads everywhere in the hills. Just main access. Make spurs walk-in
Etc,etc,etc.

Too much is wrong with hunting today.
Hunters should have to wear their tag on their orange vest so hunters can police each other and know who is legit and who is poaching.
 
Give it up bud, take your negative self somewhere else, I know this isn’t going to help but I know some people and I’ve been hoping to put together some information that I can present to the division. Nobody asked you to reply too this thread, if you want too fight go somewhere else
Sorry for hurting your feelings.
 
I might as well add this to all the mule deer decline posts. Here is the first part of the article:


Cheating the Sage​

Cheatgrass and other invasive grasses loom as a major threat to mule deer sagebrush habitat. Now is the time for hunters and land managers to act!​

The following article is written by Hannah Nikonow and was originally published in the September/October issue of the Mule Deer Foundation Journal. It is republished here with permission.
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Click here to read this full article from the Mule Deer Foundation Journal’s 2019 September/October issue.
Many experts are now citing the number one threat to mule deer in many parts of the West isn’t carnivores, development, or disease. Rather, it’s a tiny little plant, thinner than a toothpick and much more delicate, but very tenacious. You probably have heard of cheatgrass by now, maybe even felt its seeds dig into your ankles while hunting in sagebrush country. This wimpy-looking exotic grass from Eurasia doesn’t look like much of a threat, at least at first glance, to the mule deer we pursue each autumn. But make no mistake, this invasive grass packs a nasty punch to sagebrush habitat.

The Fire & Invasives Cycle: It’s Vicious​

Mule deer rely on sagebrush landscapes for much of their lives, and especially in the winter. The problem is that vast swaths of this habitat are going up in smoke every year with wildfires that are increasingly devastating in their size, frequency, and intensity. This is due in large part to a vicious cycle of fires burning slow-growing sagebrush, followed by quick-growing invasive grasses filling in the void. This can then result in the landscape reburning on those tinder-dry fine fuels, making an area much more susceptible to more fire and facilitating the spread of more cheatgrass and, over time, the elimination of the sagebrush.
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“All of our mule deer herds have been impacted by fire and invasives,” said Cody Schroeder, Mule Deer Staff Biologist for the Nevada Department of Wildlife. “Cheatgrass literally cheats native plants out of water and space to grow. It is an invasive grass that is so well-adapted to fill in post-fire and has very little nutritional value.”
Often after a fire in their winter range, mule deer show up in that fire scar and stay there until they starve, competing with each other for the small islands of remaining unburned vegetation, said Schroeder
 
Just as someone mentioned, killing bucks is NOT the problem.
We've already cut tags by 120k since the late 90's are are still losing over all deer numbers.

We are losing does as well, over harvesting of bucks is not the problem.

We have GOT to increase our doe populations, period.

Highway mortality is a bigger problem than most people realize, but high fence implementation projects are going on all over the state and also in other western states through additional funds and physical help generated by conservation groups.

Coyote populations have exploded since M44 was banned for controlling predators, the recreational dog killers aren't even putting a dent in them.

Loss of winter range is only a problem in metro areas of the Northern parts, there is an abundance in Central, Eastern and Southern parts of the state, yet they are still losing deer numbers there as well.

Advanced gadgetry for hunting only makes trophy bucks easier to harvest but have nothing to do with "declining herds".
We are not slaughtering our "herds" with 1000 yard muzzies, long range rifles or 100 yard bows, thats an entirely different issue.
 
Do you have thousands of acres of mule deer habitat burning each year? Is there cheatgrass in those areas? I can pretty much guarantee that wildfires are burning more intense and at way higher frequency in those areas. In fact, wild fires that burn through dense cheatgrass thatch burn so intense that they often kill antelope bitterbrush, mountain mahogany, and other forbs. Also, the cheatgrass is so competitive early in the spring that it creates it's own drought conditions robbing moisture from not only shrubs but native forbs and grass that mule deer browse on at different times of the year.

Wildfires that burn in areas without dense cheatgrass thatch burn a more natural....mosiac burn and don't kill native shrubs and forbs. That's how it was in the good ole days before cheatgrass! I can pretty much guarantee if cheatgrass is taken out of the equation wildfires would burn a lot less intense and there would be a fraction of the acres burned each year.

In our region here in Colorado there are still a lot of areas with remnant native forbs and shrubs in the understory of cheatgrass. We have sprayed several thousand acres of cheatgrass in these areas. It's amazing to see lush growth of native shrubs, forbs, and grasses that increase in response to cheatgrass control. All that moisture that was robbed by cheatgrass is now available for desirable browse species. In fact, we are seeing a 2 to 3x increase in mtn mahogany, antelope bitterbrush, sumac, rabbitbrush, and other shrub leader growth where cheatgrass is controlled. Not only is the leader growth much longer but the biomass of those leaders are much heavier with higher nutrition for mule deer. I've set up game cameras in areas we've controlled cheatgrass and adjacent areas with cheatgrass and the deer spend 3x more time where the cheatgrass is controlled due to this lush growth.

Anyway, if cheatgrass is controlled before devastating wildfires there's a great chance that you won't have to worry about trying to plant shrubs or drill grass or other natives to stabilize the soil. The browse species will likely naturally recover with lush growth. The exciting thing about it is we are seeing immediate response of natives where we control cheatgrass. I've seen photos of some of the large-scale areas in NV that have burned extremely intense fires where there are thousands of acres of great shrublands that are lost. What a shame!

We are obviously interested in long-term cheatgrass control and that's exactly what we are seeing. If you want more information or would like to look at critical winter ranges where we've sprayed please send me a pm. I also have lots of data and photos from the monitoring I've been doing the past few years.
Bottom-line....healthier habitat means healthier does...which means healthier fawns that can survive harsh winters and drought conditions. For us hunters it also means bigger racks on more bucks!

I can pretty much guarantee this is a game-changer for mule deer in areas with lots of cheatgrass!
 
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I agree that we need to increase the deer population. That starts by admitting that deer populations are hurting, not by claiming we have over 300k deer in the state. Let’s admit there is the problem first then put our heads together along with the Biologist to figure a way to increase the deer herd. One year of a great water year is not going to suddenly bring the deer herd back. Many on here have offered great suggestions that I think need to be tried in some of our worst units.
 
I thought I would add a couple photos that I took a couple weeks ago on one of our property's critical winter ranges. The first 2 photos are of lush antelope bitterbrush growth after cheatgrass was sprayed this past March. The photos were only a few months after cheatgrass was sprayed and controlled! The bottom photo is of the adjacent non-sprayed area with cheatgrass (non-sprayed).
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Here are examples of how leader growth increases for 5 different shrub species that we've been monitoring where cheatgrass is controlled. The names of the shrubs are below each photo. We've been collecting data from 6 different sites and the data is consistent at every location. Shrub leader growth on the left side of the ruler is where cheatgrass is cotrolled. Shrub leader growth on the right side of the ruler is the same shrub species but where cheatgrass wasn't controlled. We are seeing approximately a 2x increase in leader growth.

This year we took this one step further and collected biomass of the leader growth and estimated total leader growth/plant. The mean biomass/shrub plant was approximately 6x greater where cheatgrass was controlled. My guess is that the lush leader growth where cheatgrass is controlled has higher nutritional value. Nutritional values may be something else we monitor in the near future. In Wyoming and Montana they have found that that nutritional value of perennial grass where cheatgrass is controlled is higher and I'm pretty sure this same thing holds true with shrubs and forbs.
 
Jims very good information,Thank you for sharing with us.
Blood tracker you have the right ideas to help with some of the proublems.

Close off at least half of Utahs dirt road system and make it accessible by walk in or horse riding only, The wildlife would do much better.Side X Sides and four whellers have there place but it is not on top of every ridge in the state that has a trail or not.These machines are definitely impacting the wildlife and there habitat.
 
It can't be that bad guys.
It’s bad in some of the areas I used to frequent for mule deer. Too many people. Not nearly the number of mature deer that used to be in the area even 5 years ago. Too many hunts have been issued to the area that I “used” to hunt. Doe hunts, early rifle, muzzy, regular rifle, archery from Aug through December…..The agenda is obvious for this area….kill em all and make a lot of money! Sell as many tags as possible for an area that holds little opportunity.
 
Do explain
Just my personal opinion. No facts to back it up. When I was in high-school not a single friend of mine archery hunted. I always went solo. Now all of them archery hunt and do dedicated. I understand only 2 deer every 3 years but I think with the amount that get wounded or what not and how often people are out in the field between the hunts the success rate is higher. It's just seems like after they introduced it there was a lot more people in the field. Maybe it's all the new people moving in but I miss the days of archery hunting and not seeing a single person on the Wasatch. Now you leave the rig at 3:00 in the morning and see half a dozen headlamps already above you. I definitely don't think I own the mountain or have more of a right than anyone else but it just seems to be more popular.
 
Just my personal opinion. No facts to back it up. When I was in high-school not a single friend of mine archery hunted. I always went solo. Now all of them archery hunt and do dedicated. I understand only 2 deer every 3 years but I think with the amount that get wounded or what not and how often people are out in the field between the hunts the success rate is higher. It's just seems like after they introduced it there was a lot more people in the field. Maybe it's all the new people moving in but I miss the days of archery hunting and not seeing a single person on the Wasatch. Now you leave the rig at 3:00 in the morning and see half a dozen headlamps already above you. I definitely don't think I own the mountain or have more of a right than anyone else but it just seems to be more popular.
I will add I do dedicated hunter and take advantage of it as well. I love being in the mountains hunting and being able to archery, muzzle, early, regular, and extended hunt has been fun
 
Just my personal opinion. No facts to back it up. When I was in high-school not a single friend of mine archery hunted. I always went solo. Now all of them archery hunt and do dedicated. I understand only 2 deer every 3 years but I think with the amount that get wounded or what not and how often people are out in the field between the hunts the success rate is higher. It's just seems like after they introduced it there was a lot more people in the field. Maybe it's all the new people moving in but I miss the days of archery hunting and not seeing a single person on the Wasatch. Now you leave the rig at 3:00 in the morning and see half a dozen headlamps already above you. I definitely don't think I own the mountain or have more of a right than anyone else but it just seems to be more popular.
If you are talking about the extended hunt on the wastach it's not only the dedicated guys pounding that out. Every archery hunter in the state can hunt that. Dedicated hunter is not having a negative effect, or at least not much of one.

And all your buddies are archery hunting as well as tons of new people because it's the thing to do now days, and let's face it, it's a hell of a lot of fun.
 
Weather and the development of winter range have hurt just about every mule deer herd in the West. You can't control the weather and it will take a lot of money to stop the development of winter range.
 
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If you are talking about the extended hunt on the wastach it's not only the dedicated guys pounding that out. Every archery hunter in the state can hunt that. Dedicated hunter is not having a negative effect, or at least not much of one.

And all your buddies are archery hunting as well as tons of new people because it's the thing to do now days, and let's face it, it's a hell of a lot of fun.
It is a lot of fun! I think it just made the sport more popular in general. I think the multi season elk is doing the same and I know they sold out of tags years before that but I still think it adds to people wanting to do it. I think if people had to choose a lot of them would have stuck with rifle. But between winters, prey, loss of habitat, etc it all plays a role. Hunters probably being the biggest impact out of all of them combined. I wasn't old enough when they did the 3 point or better areas but I would like them to study that for certain areas. There are still a lot of deer and great deer I see every year but just more pressure it feels like.
 
It is a lot of fun! I think it just made the sport more popular in general. I think the multi season elk is doing the same and I know they sold out of tags years before that but I still think it adds to people wanting to do it. I think if people had to choose a lot of them would have stuck with rifle. But between winters, prey, loss of habitat, etc it all plays a role. Hunters probably being the biggest impact out of all of them combined. I wasn't old enough when they did the 3 point or better areas but I would like them to study that for certain areas. There are still a lot of deer and great deer I see every year but just more pressure it feels like.
Many people complain the big 2 points end up doing a lot of the breeding thus passing on their potentially bad 2 point genes with a 3 or 4 point antler restriction unit. Texas has pioneered a potentially better solution with a 20 inch minimum spread so a typical mule deer is 22 inches with his ears outstretched so just inside of that to be legal to harvest. This improves buck to doe ratios and gives those younger bucks an extra year or two to wise up and survive. Most states which use antler point restrictions now just use them for 3-4 years then 5-6 years with no restrictions.
 
Makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of people see a 2 or 3 point breeding and think that's a bad thing. Honestly it's all genetics. That 2 point could be a great deer in years to come etc. So whether it breeds now as a 2 point vs later as a 4 point it wouldn't matter. The doe genetics would play a role as well.
 
You cant hunt bucks for 4 straight months , with bows that are capable of making 120 yard shots , muzzleloaders that are capable of making 1000 yard shots , and rifles that can shoot a mile if need be , then throw in the capability of digitally tying up a buck for 6 months at a time with trail cameras , loss of public land , loss of winter range , increase of grazing permits for cattle , then in alot of the west horses are going unchecked , and literally almost doubling every spring , its a recipe for disaster , and thats where we sit today on deer numbers
 
You cant hunt bucks for 4 straight months , with bows that are capable of making 120 yard shots , muzzleloaders that are capable of making 1000 yard shots , and rifles that can shoot a mile if need be , then throw in the capability of digitally tying up a buck for 6 months at a time with trail cameras , loss of public land , loss of winter range , increase of grazing permits for cattle , then in alot of the west horses are going unchecked , and literally almost doubling every spring , its a recipe for disaster , and thats where we sit today on deer numbers
You've described the perfect storm for the bucks, but we need to figure out the more important piece of the puzzle here.......the does are diminishing as well.
One buck can service 50 does and create a small herd by himself, but if he doesn't have the ladies to fulfill his breeding capabilities, there lies the problem.
 
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You've described the perfect storm for the bucks, but we need to figure out the more important piece of the puzzle here.......the does are diminishing as well.
One buck can service 50 does and create a small herd by himself, but if he doesn't have the ladies to fulfill his sexual capabilities, there lies the problem.
100% correct and if they dont have any groceries to eat they move or die
 
100% correct and if they dont have any groceries to eat they move or die
Yes Sir, spot on.

This is something a lot of people do not understand that the DNR is trying to balance.
Bucks don't produce fawns, does do.
High buck to doe ratios are fine and fun when the overall herds are healthy, but when they are not, removing bucks is the tool they use to help free up habitat and vegetation to help does and fawns thrive.
Its easy to think about.
If we've got 25 does, 19 fawns, 15 bucks and poor habitat conditions, which deer are going to be culled? ?‍♂️?
 
Many people complain the big 2 points end up doing a lot of the breeding thus passing on their potentially bad 2 point genes with a 3 or 4 point antler restriction unit. Texas has pioneered a potentially better solution with a 20 inch minimum spread so a typical mule deer is 22 inches with his ears outstretched so just inside of that to be legal to harvest. This improves buck to doe ratios and gives those younger bucks an extra year or two to wise up and survive. Most states which use antler point restrictions now just use them for 3-4 years then 5-6 years with no restrictions.
Sadly it seems like most of the guys in this state can’t even tell the difference between a 3 point and a four point, we’ve had the problem before where people shoot a buck and see it’s not big enough for the restrictions and then they end up harvesting multiple deer and leaving one to waste, I’m afraid it would even be much worse if it was a game of mere inches
 
Y’all need to stop blaming our deer herd problems solely on hunting related issues, if we completely ceased hunting in Utah for a couple year we would still be in a bad spot.

WE ARE IN A EXTREME DROUGHT! That means low wildlife populations in general. With lack of water means lack of habitat and feed which means low successful reproduction. Also habitat destruction has been a huge problem that we need to confront, we are building and developing massive amounts of land on crucial wintering grounds that deer need to survive on during their hardest times of the year.

I’m willing to bet though with the recent mild winters and abundance of moisture we will see a increase in population numbers but that could easily be kiboshed by a nasty winter.

We don’t control wildlife populations… Mother Nature is responsible for that.
 
I am willing to take that bet Luke. The deer herd has been declining for the past decade. It is not going to rebound. The herd is to far gone. Of course if we go by DWR telling us there are more deer like they did two years ago you will win. Let’s bet by hunters who get out and walk the landscape. Let’s see what they say come next fall.
 
For states out west a major one is poor and/or non-existent forest management for an extended period of time, which leads to hellacious fires. Wasn't too complicated for native americans (long before biologists with 4 year degrees came along). They set slower moving fires up high every year when they migrated down for the winter, then they had good hunting when they went back up. Imagine the difference it would make if our firefighters got most of their overtime during the off season, doing more targeted and controlled burns. Would cut down on out of control fires and loss of lives/property too.

The other major one is predators, predators, predators. Mtn lions, wolves, coyotes, bears and occasionally bobcats all kill fawns/deer. Efforts to legitimately address this issue are few and far between. Didn't used to be that way. For the most part hunting was a lot better, and there was a hell of a lot more hunters back then too. Whether it's the politics involved, over educated decision makers not applying common sense, banning trapping/poison/using hounds/ability to legally do it at all, or crazed lefty lawsuits, there is a balance to everything and it's been tilted the wrong way for quite awhile.
 
Regarding Utah, this is from the "Mountain Lion Foundation's" website. After clicking on the link for the main page (https://mountainlion.org/us/utah/#!history), you'll see gems like "In California, where cougars aren’t hunted, deer and elk populations have higher densities than states that routinely hunt their lions. This suggest that killing cougars doesn’t result in higher deer and elk populations." Hmm...G'luck finding a single hunter in CA who agrees with that (if you look at their last harvest report, the hunter success rate for 13 out of 16 of their rifle D zones was below 15%).

If you scroll down and click on the "Status" tab of the foundation website, it states "In 2019, UDWR estimated the mountain lion population in the state to be around 2,700 adults." Note it says adults, not juvenile cats. Know common sense math is hard if you are a non-hunting angry liberal, but 2,700 adult lions times 50 deer a year each equals 135,000 deer per year. And that's if the count isn't undercounted. Who knows how many of those deer are older age class bucks that are solitary. And that's just the stats for mtn lions and doesn't include other predators.
 
Lmmfao

"In California, where cougars aren’t hunted, deer and elk populations have higher densities than states that routinely hunt their lions. This suggest that killing cougars doesn’t result in higher deer and elk populations."
 
"If you scroll down and click on the "Status" tab of the foundation website, it states "In 2019, UDWR estimated the mountain lion population in the state to be around 2,700 adults." Note it says adults, not juvenile cats. Know common sense math is hard if you are a non-hunting angry liberal, but 2,700 adult lions times 50 deer a year each equals 135,000 deer per year. And that's if the count isn't undercounted. Who knows how many of those deer are older age class bucks that are solitary. And that's just the stats for mtn lions and doesn't include other predators."
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It's no secret that I am all for killing lions and I know they do severe damage to deer numbers, but there is no way anyone could get me to believe one adult lion will kill and consume 50 deer a year.

Estimated herd number for 2021 is 230k deer, lions are not taking 65% of our overall deer numbers at 135k.
That number just doesn't add up when you factor in hunter harvest, estimated highway mortality, estimated coyote and bear mortality, etc, etc, that would put us in the negative.
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Might I add that if we were all in the same shape as Bigwiffy, the deer populations would be thriving in roadless areas.

Just an observation Big Wiff. Not a bash on those blessed with more skin than others?
I'm in shape, it's just round....I've lost some weight for my sheep hunt.
 
Sadly it seems like most of the guys in this state can’t even tell the difference between a 3 point and a four point, we’ve had the problem before where people shoot a buck and see it’s not big enough for the restrictions and then they end up harvesting multiple deer and leaving one to waste, I’m afraid it would even be much worse if it was a game of mere inches
Hunters need to know their target well. If it’s close, don’t chance it. The biggest advantage of this as I see it from Texas led deer management is you can stop those big 2 point bucks from potentially doing a lot of the breeding and passing on those bad genetics somewhat, though certainly the doe has something to add but areas in Utah where the restriction was used for many years had many large 2 point bucks some close to 30 inches doing the majority of the breeding. https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wil...t2018&utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery
 
You Are F'N WRONG!
It was my opinion. I might be wrong. I guess what I meant is deer don't stand a chance when good hunters get to hunt them for 5 seasons. But I might be wrong in your circumstances because I have been watching this site for years and noticed all you do is talk and stir it up.
 
I’d argue good hunters are the ones who help the herd the most. Poor hunters would be the ones most likely to launch arrows or bullets out of desperation or are less likely to be able to perform during the moment of truth and wound something.

I think the wound rate is significantly higher than believed. And this is also contributing to the decline in deer.
 
Y’all need to stop blaming our deer herd problems solely on hunting related issues, if we completely ceased hunting in Utah for a couple year we would still be in a bad spot.

WE ARE IN A EXTREME DROUGHT! That means low wildlife populations in general. With lack of water means lack of habitat and feed which means low successful reproduction. Also habitat destruction has been a huge problem that we need to confront, we are building and developing massive amounts of land on crucial wintering grounds that deer need to survive on during their hardest times of the year.

I’m willing to bet though with the recent mild winters and abundance of moisture we will see a increase in population numbers but that could easily be kiboshed by a nasty winter.

We don’t control wildlife populations… Mother Nature is responsible for that.
I mostly agree Mother Nature has a lot to do with it, but there are many things people do that can degrade natural habitat, including the introduction and spread of invasive weeds, urban sprawl, roads, etc. It is relatively easy to wreck fragile habitats in arid environments but very hard to fix. Agriculture can be very positive.

One thing that is relatively easy to control is hunting pressure, but even that has been challenging because you just end up with lots of unlicensed hunters helping friends and family that happen to have tags. You also see hunters responding to declining herds and reduced opportunity, by using more sophisticated and powerful equipment.
 
If you read my earlier posts I mentioned I thought dedicated was a mistake and I mentioned that obviously other factors play into the deer herd. I still see quite a few deer where I hunt. Quality is just down. Might be the drought.
Hey DC!

Don't You Know The Dedicated Hunters are the Problem!
 
Someone said hunting bucks isn't a problem....of the many problems we have is we don't have enough bucks. There are does not getting bred. THATS A FACT! I spend alot of time looking at deer including through the rut. In some areas there are no bucks to be seen! Prime rut seeing 50+ does in an area and not a single buck ......something is very wrong with our deer management and they're not willing to admit it and take the right measures to recover our herds.
 
Someone said hunting bucks isn't a problem....of the many problems we have is we don't have enough bucks. There are does not getting bred. THATS A FACT! I spend alot of time looking at deer including through the rut. In some areas there are no bucks to be seen! Prime rut seeing 50+ does in an area and not a single buck ......something is very wrong with our deer management and they're not willing to admit it and take the right measures to recover our herds.
Utah and several other states have caught literally thousands of deer the past couple years and have tested for pregnancy. Pregnancy rates have always been above 90%. That is actual fact with hands on measurements of pregnancy rates. You having a hard time finding bucks can also be a fact, but doesn't mean deer aren't getting bred. There is no actual data to support does aren't getting bred, while there is actual data to support they are.
 
Utah and several other states have caught literally thousands of deer the past couple years and have tested for pregnancy. Pregnancy rates have always been above 90%. That is actual fact with hands on measurements of pregnancy rates. You having a hard time finding bucks can also be a fact, but doesn't mean deer aren't getting bred. There is no actual data to support does aren't getting bred, while there is actual data to support they are.
Yep , Right now the dwr is netting does and testing there fat contents , does half to be above a certain % OF BODY FAT TO CONCIEVE, i cant remember what that #is , thats science , so when they collect there data they can forecast what next years fawn crop should look like before mortality and predation , then if there isnt the right buck to doe ratio , to get all those fat does bred , well you hunted yourself out of a deer heard , for the next few years
 
I quit hunting muleys here in AZ. Herds are hurting bad. Coues deer numbers seem to be rapidly increasing.
 
They go out and get a sample of deer then do a forecast for the next year. That sample and forecast has not been right for years. Just keep telling yourself all doe are getting bred. I also have seen groups of doe with no buck in with them right during prime rut time. Go out and look in your winter grounds in your hunting area. Does it look like there are more deer or less?
 
I recognize that five or ten bucks can probably breed 100 does, but I think there have been pockets of does on public lands that have not been bred as a result of extreme hunting pressure. I don’t think our deer counts are thorough enough to account for this sort of problem.
 
" I don’t think our deer counts are thorough enough to account for this sort of problem."
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That right there IS the problem
 
Here’s what some of the winter range looks like where we just sprayed the cheatgrass. If there is much of Utah that has cheatgrass this thick I can guarantee it is impacting mule deer health and numbers!
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We have pooled grant money to help pay for several of these large-scale cheatgrass spray projects. The BLM and forest service near Baggs and Saratoga Wyoming just pooled together a large grant to spray over 9,000 acres of cheatgrass infested acres after the Mullein wildfire in Southern Wyoming. Sublette and Sheridan Counties in Wyo have also been spraying thousands of acres of cheatgrass through large grants with collaboration between multiple interest groups.

Here is an article about the Mullein Creek wildfire cheatgrass project:


Contact Information
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USDA Forest Service
Medicine Bow-Routt
National Forests,
Thunder Basin
National Grassland

2468 Jackson Street
Laramie, WY 82070
307-745-2300
Ranger Districts
Telephone for the
Hearing Impaired
307-745-2307
Contact Us

Aerial cheatgrass spraying planned for Mullen wildfire area​

Release Date: Jun 17, 2021

The coordinated effort will take place over an eight-week period.​

Media Contact: Aaron Voos, 970-819-2898
(LARAMIE, Wyo.) June 17, 2021 The U.S. Department of Agriculture, Forest Service (USFS) and the Wyoming Game & Fish Department (WGFD) are planning to treat cheatgrass on 9,200 acres within the 2020 Mullen wildfire area through the aerial application of the herbicide Rejuvra, with the goal of reducing or even eradicating this species on many burned areas.
Aerial spraying with a helicopter is scheduled to begin June 20 on the Medicine Bow-Routt National Forests. Treatment units are located along the western slope of the Snowy Range, primarily in Wyoming but also in a portion of the area that burned in Colorado.
Treatment will take place over an eight-week window; however, herbicide application is weather-permitting and could result in full, partial, or no-spray days.
Recreationists along the North Platte River and its’ tributaries should be aware of the planned spraying. On-the-ground signage has been posted along with maps. Short-term closures are possible during the project pending treatment timing.
The helicopter will be based out of Saratoga, Wyo. with various staging areas throughout the Forest or adjacent BLM lands, determined by the area currently being treated.
The emphasis is on controlling non-native, annual cheatgrass on critical big-game winter ranges, enhancing native vegetation species, stabilizing soils, and reducing erosion. Treating cheatgrass also greatly minimizes the risk of a second wildfire in this area by the reduction in fine fuels and diminishes the threat of shorter fire intervals in the future.
In the fall of 2020, the Mullen fire burned approximately 176,877 acres. This aerial treatment is intended for high-risk areas where the spread of cheatgrass could allow it to become established as dominant plant species.
Aerial treatments of cheatgrass have previously proven successful on the Medicine Bow National Forest, on burned areas from the 2012 Squirrel Creek fire and the 2018 Badger Creek Fire.
“It is great to continue collaboration efforts with our partners on controlling invasive species in the footprint of the Mullen Fire. Our past treatments have proven to be successful in managing cheatgrass, which is a huge threat to native ecosystem recovery post wildfire.” said Jackie Roaque, Rangeland Management Specialist for the Laramie Ranger District. “We are optimistic that there will be the same success with this project, and at an even larger scale than in the past.”
The Mullen cheatgrass project has received in-kind, monetary, and collaborative support from the following entities: USFS, WGFD, Colorado State University – Natural Resource Ecology Lab, United States Geological Survey, Muley Fanatics Foundation, University of Wyoming, Wyoming Wild Sheep Foundation, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Wyoming Wildlife and Natural Resource Trust, National Fish and Wildlife Foundation, and Wyoming Governor's Big Game License Coalition. The collective support for treating invasive species following the Mullen fire is valued at over a million dollars and with such we anticipate treating approximately 17,000 acres of cheatgrass over multiple years.
Cheatgrass is a particularly aggressive invasive species that many agencies and landowners in the western United States are struggling to control. It is a prolific seed producer, thrives in disturbed areas and can displace native plants within grass and shrubland communities.
The ability to spray aerially on the Mullen Fire area is a result of the 2015 Record of Decision for Invasive Plant Management on the Medicine Bow-Routt National Forests and Thunder Basin National Grassland.
Specific questions about the project should be directed to Jackie Roaque (USFS), 307-745-2340 and Ryan Amundson (WGFD), 307-331-0787.
Fire recovery is a USDA Forest Service - Rocky Mountain Regional priority, and local Forest objective in 2020. Emergency stabilization and post-fire restoration work, such as cheatgrass spraying, is underway.
Additional resources can be found on our website. Information is also available on social media: @FS_MBRTB on Twitter or @FSMBRTB on Facebook.
-USDA-
 
Here's another article by the Wyoming Game and Fish.

WYOMING WILDLIFE - MARCH 2020

The Cheater

Like Wyoming, Nevada is combating the spread of cheatgrass. The invasive grass increases the risk of fire, which damages habitat needed for sagebrush obligates like sage grouse. Cheatgrass infests more than 100 million acres in at least 49 states. (Photo by Savannah Monterro, Winnemucca, Nevada, District Fire Program)

Cheatgrass has been a scourge on the western landscape for more than a century, but the Wyoming Game and Fish Department believes there is hope in fighting it in some areas

CHRISTINE PETERSON
3/1/2020 5:12:26 PM

In western Wyoming, spreading slowly and silently through critical mule deer migration routes and sage grouse leks — and just about everywhere else — is a scourge on the country’s landscape so old many people have simply learned to live with it.

“People didn’t realize 30 years ago the impact it might have,” Randall said. “We have places that did not have cheatgrass 10 years ago when we actively started managing cheatgrass but now have it.

Continuing in managing efforts, Game and Fish and partner agencies, including the Natural Resource Conservation Service, Bureau of Land Management and Sublette County Weed and Pest, treated 30,000 acres by spraying herbicides from a helicopter near Pinedale in 2018. The area has been identified as one where land managers may be able to fight the invasive plant which has creeped into habitats and altered the forage for many species in Wyoming.

But a fight some once thought futile is a challenge cheatgrass expert Brian Mealor, an associate professor at the University of Wyoming and director of the Sheridan research and extension center, believes can be at least kept at bay.

To do so it will take diligent range surveys, quick action, persistence, and money. Wyoming Gov. Mark Gordon formed two task forces in fall 2019 to look at the science of combatting cheatgrass and potential policy issues. The cooperative effort to tackle the species will need to be coordinated and aggressive in order to prevent the unwanted, fire-prone invasive plant from taking over healthy wildlife habitat acre by acre, meadow by meadow, hillside by hillside.

“If we are strategic and committed to working in the places that make the most sense and have the highest chance of recovery — and by committed I mean being committed to managing for a series of years,” Mealor said. “If that is true, then I think yes, we are nearing a stage where we can be optimistic.”

Cheatgrass threatens wildlife by converting productive habitat into areas overgown with unpalatable, invasive grasses. Cheatgrass and other invasive grasses take over sagebrush habitats important for many species of Wyoming' wildlife, including pronghorn.

Pervasive and unpalatable
At one point, ecologists believed some of Wyoming would be immune to the plant because of elevation and climate. The fallout of the drought in the early 2000s and again between 2010 and 2012 proved that theory wrong. Now cheatgrass has been found in every county and continues to grow in new areas.

Wildlife and livestock avoid eating the plant after it has cured for two reasons.

First, it’s largely devoid of protein and nutrition, said Ray Bredehoft, Game and Fish habitat and access branch chief.

Secondly, once it cures, the seed husks are unpalatable to anything from pronghorn to livestock, Cheatgrass’s unpalatability is only the beginning of its harm to wildlife and healthy lands.

A conduit for fire

To explain why cheatgrass is such a plague to the landscape requires a quick lesson on the ecology of Wyoming’s high plains.

Much of Wyoming is covered in sagebrush, native grasses and flowers or some combination of the three.

Sagebrush live for 50 to 100 years and slowly reproduce by seed. Most of the grasses, however, are perennials, reproducing year-by-year largely through a root system.

Native grasses die in the fall and sprout in the spring, greening up between March and July depending on the weather and species.

Some landscapes will be filled entirely by grasses and other forbs like wildflowers. But most areas are a combination of bushy plants like sagebrush or mountain mahogany with a variety of Wyoming’s native grasses filling the understory and gaps in between. The variation in green up allows everything from songbirds to mule deer to find delicious morsels from late winter until the snow begins to fall again.

Unfortunately for Wyoming’s native grasses, cheatgrass, well, cheats. It germinates in the fall, putting down roots and slowly growing before deep snow blankets the ground. That means in the spring, when native plants are trying to wake up, tiny cheatgrass stems are ready to grow. “They deplete the soil moisture preemptively before our natives are able to use it,” Mealor said. Shortly after they outcompete the nearby grasses, they die, leaving dead, brown stems and dry seeds in their wake and a sea of ground unable to support anything else.

The problem isn’t just that cheatgrass replaces one native grass, but it replaces all of them. Natural systems have grasses like bluebunch or western wheatgrass that grow in the spring and fade into Indian ricegrass or blue grama that sprout in June and stay green until the end of July with bushes and forbs intermixed. Cheatgrass creates a near monoculture.

As spring turns to summer and moisture fades from the soil, the 4-inch high stems of brown, dry grass and seed heads are a perfect conduit for fire. And fire, a natural and critical part of the western ecosystem, typically comes through sagebrush covered areas every 50 to 100 years. When cheatgrass takes over, fires can whip through every couple years or every year. Cheatgrass then thrives in disturbed soil, so more of the invasive plant grows in its place and slowly any chance of native vegetation from perennial grasses to sagebrush are gone.

The human-caused 2018 Martin Fire in Nevada burned more than 435,000 acres of what was once sage grouse habitat. Now largely what remains is cheatgrass.

“It nuked it,” Bredehoft said. “Nevada lost 30-some active bird leks. The birds were catching fire and spreading fire. You go to Utah, and it’s the same way.”

In the Great Basin, 11 of the last 50 fires were the biggest in history. Cheatgrass, Bredehoft said, is to blame. Randall witnessed the same issue near Boulder Lake. A fire burned through what had been sagebrush and an understory full of cheatgrass. About 20 years later another fire came through, thriving off even more cheatgrass. Firefighters fought quickly and aggressively and kept the blaze to only about 1,000 acres. But it’s part of a vital mule deer migration corridor, and she fears the future is clear.

“We won’t see sagebrush there in my lifetime unless someone goes in there and physically plants it,” she said. “That’s the kind of thing we want to prevent, and allowing cheatgrass on the landscape allows fuel source for those fires.”

A helicopter conducts aerial spraying of herbicide east of Pinedale in 2018. The location has been identified as one where land managers may be able to cobmat the spread of invasive cheatgrass. (Photo by Jill Randall/WGFD)

Cautious optimism

As with most invasive species, the best way to fight cheatgrass is to prevent it from arriving. The next best way is to attack an invading population immediately — to prevent the loss of native plants rather than try to reintroduce them. And the best way to fight is with herbicides, said Ian Tator, terrestrial habitat manager with Game and Fish.

The newest herbicide herbicide showing some promise is called Esplanade. It lasts for several years, killing more of the seed bank. But it also prohibits most plants from germinating. “You can only apply herbicides in places where there is a good perennial native component, they have a root system and will come back every year,” Tator said. “We’re losing out on germination of most native seed stock, but at least eliminating the cheatgrass component from coming back.”

Christine Peterson has spent nearly a decade writing about Wyoming’s fish, wildlife, outdoors and environment. She now works from her home in Laramie.

GAME AND FISH BRINGS THE FIGHT TO CHEATGRASS

The Wyoming Game and Fish Department is using several strategies to fight cheatgrass throughout the state.

  • Land managers treated 42,205 acres for cheatgrass in 2018, including land on 21 Game and Fish Commission-owned Wildlife Habitat Management Areas.
  • Game and Fish has 30 ongoing projects involving cheatgrass.
  • In order to help land managers identify areas to treat, an interactive mapping tool has been developed to display the important wildlife habitats in the state. This brings a focus on areas most likely to recover or resist an invasive species like cheatgrass.
  • Game and fish assesses areas before cheatgrass treatments and continues to monitor those areas after they have been treated. That data is used to inform management decisions.
  • Game and Fish started the Stop Invasive Species In Your Tracks initiative in 2012 to protect valuable natural resources while encouraging people to enjoy the outdoors by removing plants, animals and mud from boots, gear, pets and vehicles when entering and leaving recreation sites, staying on designated roads and trails and using certified hay and local firewood.
For more information go to wyoweed.org.
 

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