Utah’s DWR Proposals

CFMuley

CFMuley

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DWR proposes moving elk permits to the big game drawing, other hunting changes

Because of increased public interest in elk hunting — and to avoid overloading its permit sales system — the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is proposing to add general-season elk permits to the big game drawing for one year.
wildlife.utah.gov wildlife.utah.gov

There’s no way moving general elk to a draw won’t stick if it gets put into place. Roughly 20,000 applicants x $10 app fee is a lot of money they can waste on stupid sh!t.

Also, I thing the change to the max point pool percentage is just the beginning in a long line of changes that will be coming to try to fix a broken, unsustainable point system.
 
  • A new late season, limited-entry muzzleloader deer hunt in the South Slope, Myton Unit from Nov. 12–27. This hunt would help control the prevalence of chronic wasting disease in this area by targeting mature bucks, which are twice as likely to contract and spread chronic wasting disease.
Ya!

That Ought To Fix Everything on a Unit That is Already in Big Trouble with already Low Age Class!
 
elkassassin said:
  • A new late season, limited-entry muzzleloader deer hunt in the South Slope, Myton Unit from Nov. 12–27. This hunt would help control the prevalence of chronic wasting disease in this area by targeting mature bucks, which are twice as likely to contract and spread chronic wasting disease.
Ya!

That Ought To Fix Everything on a Unit That is Already in Big Trouble with already Low Age Class!
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Ah yes, let’s give people tags where they will kill the healthy looking deer and leave the CWD deer there too spread
 
60/40 split, does this mean areas with 1 tag (thinking NR units) will go to max point holders or still be allocated to random draw?
 
WyomingMark said:
60/40 split, does this mean areas with 1 tag (thinking NR units) will go to max point holders or still be allocated to random draw?
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Draws with 1 tag are disbursed randomly regardless of the split change.... unless it goes to 100% of the tags go to the highest point holder.

Even though it will negatively impact me, I really like the proposed 60/40 split so as to keep things moving.

Hey Bess, you might draw a tag after all!!!!!!!!!

Zeke
 
elkassassin said:
  • A new late season, limited-entry muzzleloader deer hunt in the South Slope, Myton Unit from Nov. 12–27. This hunt would help control the prevalence of chronic wasting disease in this area by targeting mature bucks, which are twice as likely to contract and spread chronic wasting disease.
Ya!

That Ought To Fix Everything on a Unit That is Already in Big Trouble with already Low Age Class!
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Make them Big Bucks wear a Mask...
 
Completely agree Eelgrass on the government making it worse, but in Utah we are extremely fortunate to be graced with Don Peay and SfW, hopefully they will solve the general elk tag purchasing conundrum, just like they saved are perilous mule deer herds with out there selfless charitable diligent service i could only imagine the state our Utah wildlife would be at with out their watchful service. Looking forward to seeing everyone at the hunt Expo with koolaid in hand and thirst for conservation, with the check book at the ready As always.
 
I thought that dumb azz spokesperson for the dnr stated last year that “going to UNLIMITED tags would not hurt elk numbers because of the vast amount of habitat available for the elk to take refuge in during the hunt!

This new “switch” in thinking to a draw reconfirms how STUPID the wildlife management team is!!!

$$$ $$$ $$$!!!

All they can think about is how to put green in their wallets!

Who agrees with this Trash proposal?!
 
Hey BLooD!

Re-Read Post # 20!

BLooDTRaCKeR said:
I thought that dumb azz spokesperson for the dnr stated last year that “going to UNLIMITED tags would not hurt elk numbers because of the vast amount of habitat available for the elk to take refuge in during the hunt!

This new “switch” in thinking to a draw reconfirms how STUPID the wildlife management team is!!!

$$$ $$$ $$$!!!

All they can think about is how to put green in their wallets!

Who agrees with this Trash proposal?!
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Am I the only one that finds it odd that they are allowing youth to apply for the any bull tags and will charge them $10 to do so. Why would that be an option if they can just buy the tag outside of the draw and save the application fee? :unsure:

Curious if anyone feels like the application timelines changes accomplish their intended purpose?
 
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tallelkchaser said:
Am I the only one that finds it odd that they are allowing youth to apply for the any bull tags and will charge them $10 to do so. Why would that be an option if they can just buy the tag outside of the draw and save the application fee? :unsure:
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Not sure if I completely understand what your referring too but if your talking about what I think you are then I’ll explain, there is a difference between the youth any bull tag that must be drawn, and the general season any bull tag for youth, the one that must be drawn is held during different dates before the general hunt during the peak of the rut, making it a much better hunt, the otc youth any bull tag is just a regular general season elk tag but it is labeled youth because these tags are unlimited for youth.
 
SanPitch said:
Not sure if I completely understand what your referring too but if your talking about what I think you are then I’ll explain, there is a difference between the youth any bull tag that must be drawn, and the general season any bull tag for youth, the one that must be drawn is held during different dates before the general hunt during the peak of the rut, making it a much better hunt, the otc youth any bull tag is just a regular general season elk tag but it is labeled youth because these tags are unlimited for youth.
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About 5 minutes in they say that youth will automatically draw if they apply for the General any bull tag (the unlimited currently otc option not the youth hunt) unless they apply as part of a group with adults. Then it is suggested to apply as only a youth group or as an individual if you want the guaranteed tag. Why advise them to apply when they can just buy the tag in July? I guess the general any bull could be the second choice?
 
tallelkchaser said:
About 5 minutes in they say that youth will automatically draw if they apply for the General any bull tag (the unlimited currently otc option not the youth hunt) unless they apply as part of a group with adults. Then it is suggested to apply as only a youth group or as an individual if you want the guaranteed tag. Why advise them to apply when they can just buy the tag in July?
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Oh gotcha, I guess I didn’t understand what you were referring too, did they say you can still buy it otc even if they make it a draw hunt?
 
SanPitch said:
Oh gotcha, I guess I didn’t understand what you were referring too, did they say you can still buy it otc even if they make it a draw hunt?
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As a youth yes, participation in the draw is not required for the general any bull hunt. They are unlimited to youth thus work the same way as archery tags.
 
huntFX4 said:
Well this is dumb. I've seriously been considering moving back to Montana where I came from. Getting plum ridiculous having to wait 3 years for a general deer tag now they want to mess up general elk too.
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I would move there tomorrow if I could. Utah has become so F'd up over the last 25 years. Growth, politics and Californians have ruined it. I grew up in St.George and the way it was back in the 80's and early 90's I would have stayed there until I died but local government was desperate for building fees and golf courses. The place is now a disaster IMO.

Utah reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw long ago "For such a small town there sure are a lot of azzholes":eek:
 
CFMuley said:

DWR proposes moving elk permits to the big game drawing, other hunting changes

Because of increased public interest in elk hunting — and to avoid overloading its permit sales system — the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is proposing to add general-season elk permits to the big game drawing for one year.
wildlife.utah.gov wildlife.utah.gov

There’s no way moving general elk to a draw won’t stick if it gets put into place. Roughly 20,000 applicants x $10 app fee...
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Where are you getting the 20,000 applicant number from? It will be a lot more than that, especially when a preference point is awarded for unsuccessful applicants...
 
roadrunner said:
Where are you getting the 20,000 applicant number from? It will be a lot more than that, especially when a preference point is awarded for unsuccessful applicants...
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Correct, they said last year that in the previous 5 years there had been 60,000+ different people buy either the spike, or general any bull tags.

If it's a draw people will put in just to put in, even if they don't know if they will hunt.

You want to alleviate the online system, simple fix is don't allow online sales. If you want an over the counter tag, then you have to show up in person at a vendor and buy a "over the counter" tag.

Also, changing the split from 50/50 to 60/40 will do very little for max points holders, stop F'ing with the system, everyone holding out for a max point tag has had ample opportunity to hunt in a unit that doesn't take so many points. They knew what they was buying into when they chose to go for those tags. 50/50 is fair for everyone and is the system that's been in place for 30 years and doesn't screw 95% of everyone else.
 
JakeH said:
You want to alleviate the online system, simple fix is don't allow online sales. If you want an over the counter tag, then you have to show up in person at a vendor and buy a "over the counter" tag.
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I disagree with the "Amish" approach by eliminating technology. UT DWR just needs to fix their site and server to allow for multiple users at one time.

If they did away with the stupid 400" mantra on management for LE units and added more tags, you wouldn't have these problems...
 
roadrunner said:
Where are you getting the 20,000 applicant number from? It will be a lot more than that, especially when a preference point is awarded for unsuccessful applicants...
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That’s the low end number I pulled out of my ass. I would bet it will be much higher, but based off what we’ve seen numbers wise with the OTC option, I figured that would be the bare minimum.
 
CFMuley said:
That’s the low end number I pulled out of my ass. I would bet it will be much higher, but based off what we’ve seen numbers wise with the OTC option, I figured that would be the bare minimum.
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The number would be quadruple the first year. People have nothing to lose and everything to gain, either a tag, or a point.

The years that follow with increase by 10% every year to keep points or get in the game before it's too late...
 
roadrunner said:
The number would be quadruple the first year. People have nothing to lose and everything to gain, either a tag, or a point.

The years that follow with increase by 10% every year to keep points or get in the game before it's too late...
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I’m sure you’re spot on with that. What’s another $10 when you’re already applying for everything else? My little brother isn’t a huge fan of elk hunting, due to the hiking, but I’d put him in for a point just to ensure he drew a tag if he ever wanted to.
 
1) Here is a thought, if the DWR isn't going to hold a hunt, don't sell bonus points (there were 2 or 3 years where they didn't have a cow moose hunt, but they sold points.) That would help decrease point creep.

2) They need to get rid of the max point game. 60/40 isn't going to come close to fixing it. If you want to reward those who have put in for a long time, just make an entry for each year someone puts in. If you've put in 20 years, your name is in 20 times. If one year, your name is in once. It would make for a lot less tracking and it would take away the goal setting mentality that leads to more expectations and disappointments. Let chance decide it.

3) Don't turn general elk into a draw, not even for a year, we don't need another preference point game. I spend more per year on preference points than I do tags. Sell tags in person over the counter if you can't figure out how to sell them online.

4) Allow applicants to bow out of the general hunts if they draw a limited entry or once in a lifetime. A lot of people don't want a general deer tag if they draw a limited entry bull tag first. It should be an option when we apply.
 
roadrunner said:
The number would be quadruple the first year. People have nothing to lose and everything to gain, either a tag, or a point.

The years that follow with increase by 10% every year to keep points or get in the game before it's too late...
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From my understanding there is not going to be a preference point awarded for the general bull application. That may be because this is a “trial” year, but if it sticks I would assume it would mimic the current deer structure.

I had considered the in person buy option but don’t know if that’s the best solution. I wonder if the website delay is caused by differing stages of the site process - like if they took the payment portion out and sent an invoice to be paid in 5 days or the tag would be released back, would that help? Stores were able to get in to the same system while people were in queue at home, what is different in that process?
Also you can load tests sites, but they may be lacking resource to do so effectively.

Also the proposed 60/40 - would personally prefer it held at the 50/50 split.
 
None of this would even be an issue if the general bull units were so limited.

If UT wants to go to a straight draw for everything, they cannot continue with the LE and antlerless concept the way it is.
 
johnnyutah said:
1) Here is a thought, if the DWR isn't going to hold a hunt, don't sell bonus points (there were 2 or 3 years where they didn't have a cow moose hunt, but they sold points.) That would help decrease point creep.

2) They need to get rid of the max point game. 60/40 isn't going to come close to fixing it. If you want to reward those who have put in for a long time, just make an entry for each year someone puts in. If you've put in 20 years, your name is in 20 times. If one year, your name is in once. It would make for a lot less tracking and it would take away the goal setting mentality that leads to more expectations and disappointments. Let chance decide it.

3) Don't turn general elk into a draw, not even for a year, we don't need another preference point game. I spend more per year on preference points than I do tags. Sell tags in person over the counter if you can't figure out how to sell them online.

4) Allow applicants to bow out of the general hunts if they draw a limited entry or once in a lifetime. A lot of people don't want a general deer tag if they draw a limited entry bull tag first. It should be an option when we apply.
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I think your idea with the number of points you have, being the number of times your name will be in the hat, is the only way Utah could move away from the current system. There’d still be riots, but I don’t see any other way they could change.
 
CFMuley said:

DWR proposes moving elk permits to the big game drawing, other hunting changes

Because of increased public interest in elk hunting — and to avoid overloading its permit sales system — the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is proposing to add general-season elk permits to the big game drawing for one year.
wildlife.utah.gov wildlife.utah.gov

There’s no way moving general elk to a draw won’t stick if it gets put into place. Roughly 20,000 applicants x $10 app fee is a lot of money they can waste on stupid sh!t.

Also, I thing the change to the max point pool percentage is just the beginning in a long line of changes that will be coming to try to fix a broken, unsustainable point system.
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2858 private tags for CWMUs? I've said it many times before... any CWMU tag, whether drawn, purchased, or given away SHOULD BURN LE BONUS POINTS. There's potential of removing 2858 people from the LE draws.

And for those who currently purchase a CWMU tag each year AND put in for LE, they have to choose which system they want to be in. If they all stay in the LE draw for public units, and the demand for purchased CWMU tags goes down, prices will come down and others will start hunting private CWMUs. That may increase the popularity of that program...
 
BrowningRage said:
2858 private tags for CWMUs? I've said it many times before... any CWMU tag, whether drawn, purchased, or given away SHOULD BURN LE BONUS POINTS. There's potential of removing 2858 people from the LE draws.

And for those who currently purchase a CWMU tag each year AND put in for LE, they have to choose which system they want to be in. If they all stay in the LE draw for public units, and the demand for purchased CWMU tags goes down, prices will come down and others will start hunting private CWMUs. That may increase the popularity of that program...
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Then shouldn't everyone that buys a tag on an LE unit then burn their LE bonus points. That would sound fair to me.

But I would be completely against that idea. CWMU's that's how they are being compensated for letting public hunters hunt on their land. I have drawn 2 CWMU tags now. One being this year.
They have put 100k into their cwmu bringing in guzzlers, drilling wells and habitat restoration. Part of that was paid for by selling permits. Anyone can buy a CWMU tag. I do not think they should loose their points because of that at all
 
roadrunner said:
None of this would even be an issue if the general bull units were so limited.

If UT wants to go to a straight draw for everything, they cannot continue with the LE and antlerless concept the way it is.
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Correct… the term “general season” is a thing of the past and we need to stop thinking we have that option. It’s smoke and mirrors, as it’s all a draw, it’s all limited entry, some units just require more time to draw.

It’s time to have one point system and you pick your poison, hunt every year or wait until you draw a better tag.

If there is left over tags then have another draw like Colorado and Idaho.
 
roadrunner said:
I disagree with the "Amish" approach by eliminating technology. UT DWR just needs to fix their site and server to allow for multiple users at one time.

If they did away with the stupid 400" mantra on management for LE units and added more tags, you wouldn't have these problems...
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I disagree with the online approach because one clown can have unlimited devices as placeholders to try and secure a tag, which kills the server and causes headaches for all. Call it “Amish” or whatever you want. It works and it is a better system than the eff’d up technology DNR is currently using.
 
BLooDTRaCKeR said:
I disagree with the online approach because one clown can have unlimited devices as placeholders to try and secure a tag, which kills the server and causes headaches for all. Call it “Amish” or whatever you want. It works and it is a better system than the eff’d up technology DNR is currently using.
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Wasn't an issue until this last year. The surge in buyers was the problem. Quit making covid a big deal and it will self correct...
 
roadrunner said:
Wasn't an issue until this last year. The surge in buyers was the problem. Quit making covid a big deal and it will self correct...
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Either way we do not want them to put them into the draw cycle, I would much rather show up in person and pick up a tag at a vendor then go to a draw.

And they said they are working on the system but it is still not keeping up, they said in the video they made improvement's before this year, and while it was better it still had issues. Pretty sure they said they was still working on improvement's.
 
lundellhunting7 said:
Then shouldn't everyone that buys a tag on an LE unit then burn their LE bonus points. That would sound fair to me.

But I would be completely against that idea. CWMU's that's how they are being compensated for letting public hunters hunt on their land. I have drawn 2 CWMU tags now. One being this year.
They have put 100k into their cwmu bringing in guzzlers, drilling wells and habitat restoration. Part of that was paid for by selling permits. Anyone can buy a CWMU tag. I do not think they should loose their points because of that at all
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In short, "yes"... I'm not sure what you mean by buy an LE tag..? Auction tags.? But yes, those should cost you any LE Bonus points. LE units and CWMUs should always cost you bonus points.

Anyway, CWMUs won't lose money. You think guys who pay to kill 180+" bucks every year are going to suddenly stop doing that just to put in for a Paunsaugunt tag for the next 18 years..? No way.! Let them continue to pay to hunt their CWMU... but you don't get to accrue Bonus points while doing so. Didn't your CWMU tag cost you your LE Bonus points.? Why is your tag different.? Cuz your a Joe Shmoe.? Its a trophy hunt either way. Its an LE unit, but with private land...

If we're going to fix the point system, we gotta start thinking outside the box. Its insane to think we can do what we've been doing, and get a different result.
 
In 2019 I bought my spike elk permits after labor day from my local Ace Hardware, what was the problem with that!
Bureaucratic agencie creating a problem inorder to justify their out of control wasteful growth of office employees.
 
The best solution is to put a quota, or cap, on NR licenses and offer them online -or- in person. Offer the remaining "quota" for Residents in person only. This way only NR's will be accessing online. I doubt the quota or cap for NR licenses will be met.

Somebody coming from Iowa hardly has a way to buy in person before they sell out but the guy living in Blanding can go down to Redd's Ace Hardware and pick one up.
 
One post says $200,000 another says $500,000 all based on application fees, that is a HUGE gap is the fee is $10. If there are actually that many applicants than by all means there needs to be a draw.
 
RuttCrazed said:
One post says $200,000 another says $500,000 all based on application fees, that is a HUGE gap is the fee is $10. If there are actually that many applicants than by all means there needs to be a draw.
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Why? So the lazy people have a chance? If you have had even a little bit of initiative you could have easily gotten a tag the last two years. It hasn't been hard at all.

roadrunner said:
The best solution is to put a quota, or cap, on NR licenses and offer them online -or- in person. Offer the remaining "quota" for Residents in person only. This way only NR's will be accessing online. I doubt the quota or cap for NR licenses will be met.

Somebody coming from Iowa hardly has a way to buy in person before they sell out but the guy living in Blanding can go down to Redd's Ace Hardware and pick one up.
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I will admit I hadn't thought of the in person sales for non-residents. May have to do something like you suggested, maybe a cap up to 1500 tags are held aside for the first 48 hours. After that the go in with the remaining tags if there are any.

Hell you would probably only have to do the in person sales for the first 24-48 hours and then could release the remaining tags to be available online. This would elevate the system enough to probably not crash it.
 
tallelkchaser said:
From my understanding there is not going to be a preference point awarded for the general bull application. That may be because this is a “trial” year, but if it sticks I would assume it would mimic the current deer structure.

I had considered the in person buy option but don’t know if that’s the best solution. I wonder if the website delay is caused by differing stages of the site process - like if they took the payment portion out and sent an invoice to be paid in 5 days or the tag would be released back, would that help? Stores were able to get in to the same system while people were in queue at home, what is different in that process?
Also you can load tests sites, but they may be lacking resource to do so effectively.

Also the proposed 60/40 - would personally prefer it held at the 50/50 split.
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60/40 or 50/50 or 99/1 doesn't matter. Max points is a myth for new hunters in any of these scenarios. They will not achieve max points within their lifetime. The concept needs to phase out over the next 5 years and be replaced with a system that is sustainable.
 
BrowningRage said:
Johnnyutah, do you have any ideas on how to phase out that system in 5 years..? Serious question as I think the system has to change as well.
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Don't need 5years. End it next year. Points are a #, you don't own them, they aren't worth any value. You make an announcement that starting 2023, all draws are 100% random, giving each applicant the exact odds as every other.

The DWR doesn't lose a dime. And for every dude howling about points, another dude will cheer for actually making LE hunts available to them.

As to CWMU. At the very least they should have the same waiting periods. Then guys can decide if buying that tag, is worth 5years waiting. Without the guarantee of repeat business, the prices would come under control, opening that option up to more folks as well.
 
Let's hear The FAIR Way To End The Point System That I Said From Before it was Started Thar It Wouldn't Work?

And Hossy!

You're Gonna Wait Until My Bison Points Are Burnt!
 
Utah can do what they want. This is just my opinion, the general elk hunts are not worth a draw. They are over crowded and not great hunts. The only way this would be worth while is to drastically cut tag numbers to allow for better hunts. I don’t think reducing hunter numbers in Utah is a good idea but…

I am no longer a Utah resident so they can do what. I won’t put in for a gneiss elk tag in the draw.
 
Utah400Elk said:
Utah can do what they want. This is just my opinion, the general elk hunts are not worth a draw. They are over crowded and not great hunts. The only way this would be worth while is to drastically cut tag numbers to allow for better hunts. I don’t think reducing hunter numbers in Utah is a good idea but…

I am no longer a Utah resident so they can do what. I won’t put in for a gneiss elk tag in the draw.
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The best way is to put the general tag (numbers) into the draw with the other LE units and increase tags in all units across the board.

You will burn through the point system in 5 years as they sit.
 
Regarding the Max Point ratio, it doesnt even matter if the DWR changes to 100% tags to max point holders.

This year it took 23 points to guarantee a rifle deer tag on the Henry's. Next year, half of the remaining 22-point holders from this year will get tags, the other half will have to wait til 2023, when they put in with 24 points. Yikes.! Point creep every-other year.? Terrible.

Whats worse: If they gave 100% tags to max point holders each year, it would take 8 years to eliminate just the top 3 pools of applicants. And by then, the next pool will have 27 points, and not draw.

Is it TOO BROKEN TO FIX.?
 
BrowningRage said:
Regarding the Max Point ratio, it doesnt even matter if the DWR changes to 100% tags to max point holders.

This year it took 23 points to guarantee a rifle deer tag on the Henry's. Next year, half of the remaining 22-point holders from this year will get tags, the other half will have to wait til 2023, when they put in with 24 points. Yikes.! Point creep every-other year.? Terrible.

Whats worse: If they gave 100% tags to max point holders each year, it would take 8 years to eliminate just the top 3 pools of applicants. And by then, the next pool will have 27 points, and not draw.

Is it TOO BROKEN TO FIX.?
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Yes

Has been for decades.

Too few guys do actual math
 
I live in Utah, have lived in CO...hunt them both. Both systems suck. The Nevada models seems to be the best way to handle LE draws going forward. The number of preference points = the number of entries. The draw is a true lottery. Is there a reason this models isn't preferred? I get it would piss off the max-points guys, but we've got to fix it as some point...they'd still have the advantage.
 
I think that we all agree that Utahs draw system does not work with todays populations,With that being said what do you tell a hunter sitting with lets say 24 points for a Desert sheep hunt ,23 points for LE deer,spouse has 24 points for moose!Do you think they could take away there years of applying with the Emotional roller coaster of waiting for 24 years for the draw results to be posted and year after year the mighty UNSUCCESSFUL result.We do need to re vamp the system but Try to take my points away and you will be in for a fight.
 
bucks said:
I think that we all agree that Utahs draw system does not work with todays populations,With that being said what do you tell a hunter sitting with lets say 24 points for a Desert sheep hunt ,23 points for LE deer,spouse has 24 points for moose!Do you think they could take away there years of applying with the Emotional roller coaster of waiting for 24 years for the draw results to be posted and year after year the mighty UNSUCCESSFUL result.We do need to re vamp the system but Try to take my points away and you will be in for a fight.
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You don't own them. If you have that many points your old enough to have already benefited from putting in for all species. So you already gamed the system vs younger guys.

Your not going to draw a sheep. Do the math. Or at least not before your far too old to hunt it. Your odds are better in a random draw.

Do the math.
 
Nobody who applies in Utah has "gamed" the system as you claim. They have simply accepted the rules and made a decision to apply.

I believe there is adequate random chances to make the system palatable to a lot of people while giving some advantage to those who persist.

Leave it at 50/50 and take your chances or not.

If you really "do the math" none of it makes sense. Save your money and buy a tag.
 
Hossblur Thanks for the reply but I thing you are wrong on two issues,I can draw a sheep tag on all units in the state except for the unit I would like to have the opportunity to hunt these magnificent animals in.Also I do believe that I do own the points that we pay to play the game in every year.I hope my luck changes this year and I get a chance! Good luck to all of you that do apply this year and be safe.
 
bucks said:
Hossblur Thanks for the reply but I thing you are wrong on two issues,I can draw a sheep tag on all units in the state except for the unit I would like to have the opportunity to hunt these magnificent animals in.Also I do believe that I do own the points that we pay to play the game in every year.I hope my luck changes this year and I get a chance! Good luck to all of you that do apply this year and be safe.
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How? Can you sell them? Can you transfer them? Can you leave them in your estate? They are nothing.

In a random draw, you would have had basically the same odds on year 1 as you did on year 20.
 
middlefork said:
Nobody who applies in Utah has "gamed" the system as you claim. They have simply accepted the rules and made a decision to apply.

I believe there is adequate random chances to make the system palatable to a lot of people while giving some advantage to those who persist.

Leave it at 50/50 and take your chances or not.

If you really "do the math" none of it makes sense. Save your money and buy a tag.
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Sure. And if next year the state went random draw, then the rules changed. So what? Everybody would put in again.

No one "bought a point". They buy a chance. Old guys love the system that benefits them. So that's why we have that system.

Younger dudes, and new hunters didn't get a vote, and they really get hosed.

Look at Bess. Still trying to draw his tag. Under a straight random draw, he could have drawn it 4 times, even with waiting periods.


There are of course ways to stop point creep.

1. You can either apply LE, OR GS, but not both.

2. You have to front the entire amount of every tag you apply for.
 
Bess keeps playing the game the way he does knowing his odds of drawing are slim.

He could choose a different unit, weapon and could have been close to hunting 4 times as well.

Yes there may be a way to "fix" the problem you perceive, But it will come with penalties for both young and old.

I know my chance of drawing another LE tag are pretty damn slim before I have to pack it in.

Meanwhile my kids have had a chance or two and the grandkids are definitely in the running.
 
Though a dead horse topic, it is still fun to rehash ideas from our recliners.

Is there any reason taking the One-or-the-Other approach couldn't help.? You either put in for LE, or general season, but not both. Deer and elk. Make people pick now by creating a system where you lose your points if you miss 2 consecutive years of putting in. I'm guessing roughly 30,000 people would still put in for LE deer tags, but about 20% would opt to lose their low LE points and start hunting GS more regularly.

Couple that with treating all CWMU tags like LE (it ALWAYS costs you LE points to have a CWMU tag) and I think we might start to put a dent into point creep on LE units, and possibly GS units as well...

Also, I think a change needs to happen with "buying" bonus and preference points incentivizing hunting rather than banking points. If you put in for a hunt and don't draw, it costs you the current $10. But if you just "buy" a point to bank it for another year, it needs to cost more. My suggestion would be $50 per point, and then have very strict rules about turning tags in for medical or military scenarios only, and make it 60 days prior to a hunt, not 30, in fairness to the next recipient in line. 6600 residents and over 15000 NR just bought points last year. Let's turn that into the DWR's cash cow so we can cut back on the freaking any-bull, spike and cow elk hunts.!

Okay, that's enough early morning Mountain Dew Zero talk... Time to work. :):)
 
roadrunner said:
Remove the LE system and have everything as a general draw. Increase tags.

It really isn't that difficult...
Click to expand...
How would you handle people having both LE Bonus points, and GS preference points right now, and transitioning to a single system.? Honest question, I love hearing the ideas...
 
BrowningRage said:
How would you handle people having both LE Bonus points, and GS preference points right now, and transitioning to a single system.? Honest question, I love hearing the ideas...
Click to expand...

Add them up and take the average. 10 Bonus and 5 GS gives 15 total, average is 7.5 so round up to 8 points. 5 Bonus and 5 GS is 10, average is 5 so they now have 5 points. This would be for bull elk and buck deer only. OIL remain as they are. The wild card is buck antelope.

Adding tags into the traditional LE system won't penalize people with max points as much as keeping it the way it is with the dreaded "creep" keeping a lot of people on the sidelines.
 
bucks said:
Hossblur Thanks for the reply but I thing you are wrong on two issues,I can draw a sheep tag on all units in the state except for the unit I would like to have the opportunity to hunt these magnificent animals in.Also I do believe that I do own the points that we pay to play the game in every year.I hope my luck changes this year and I get a chance! Good luck to all of you that do apply this year and be safe.
Click to expand...

No disrespect, but you'll be surprised to see what happens to those points you own after you pass
 
hossblur said:
You don't own them. If you have that many points your old enough to have already benefited from putting in for all species. So you already gamed the system vs younger guys.

Your not going to draw a sheep. Do the math. Or at least not before your far too old to hunt it. Your odds are better in a random draw.

Do the math.
Click to expand...
I think your the one that needs to revisit your math. A person with 10+ points has a much better chance at getting a tag over someone competing in a random draw.
 
Hossblur brought up a good point that we also need to consider...which is the next generation of hunters. If they have to wait 20-30 years to have one quality hunt on one species...you are making it very difficult for them to stay motivated and care about quality hunting opportunities going forward. With a model like Nevada, there would still be some of the younger generations that would draw every year. It may be time for the older generation to realize that this current system may actually destroy the future of hunting if not remedied. If the general units were a quality hunt, then it would be different...but they aren't. So what does a kid in their teens and 20's have to look forward to? We have to give more quality opportunities to the youth and younger hunters. The Nevada model does that, while still giving preference to the guys with lots of points. Some of you have said that if we take away your points, then we are up for a fight! Well, I'd take that fight since all you high point guys are old men now...just saying.
 
BrowningRage said:
Though a dead horse topic, it is still fun to rehash ideas from our recliners.

Is there any reason taking the One-or-the-Other approach couldn't help.? You either put in for LE, or general season, but not both. Deer and elk. Make people pick now by creating a system where you lose your points if you miss 2 consecutive years of putting in. I'm guessing roughly 30,000 people would still put in for LE deer tags, but about 20% would opt to lose their low LE points and start hunting GS more regularly.

Couple that with treating all CWMU tags like LE (it ALWAYS costs you LE points to have a CWMU tag) and I think we might start to put a dent into point creep on LE units, and possibly GS units as well...

Also, I think a change needs to happen with "buying" bonus and preference points incentivizing hunting rather than banking points. If you put in for a hunt and don't draw, it costs you the current $10. But if you just "buy" a point to bank it for another year, it needs to cost more. My suggestion would be $50 per point, and then have very strict rules about turning tags in for medical or military scenarios only, and make it 60 days prior to a hunt, not 30, in fairness to the next recipient in line. 6600 residents and over 15000 NR just bought points last year. Let's turn that into the DWR's cash cow so we can cut back on the freaking any-bull, spike and cow elk hunts.!

Okay, that's enough early morning Mountain Dew Zero talk... Time to work. :):)
Click to expand...
How about changing the the 5 year wait period?

Last year in Utah 56,078 residents applied for 2756 Limited Entry Elk Tags, 38,943 residents applied for 1,367 Limited Entry Deer Tags, and 8,517 residents applied for 1090 Limited Entry Pronghorn Tags. That’s 103,538 residents applying for 5,213 Limited Entry Tags.

Right now, if you draw a Limited Entry Big Game Tag you are not eligible to apply for that tag again for 5 years. Typically, after a hunter draws one of these tags they then switch to a different limited entry species the following year. If this was changed to if you draw a Limited Entry tag you cannot apply for ANY Limited Entry tag for 5 years, with 2021 tag numbers, this would take 26,065 residents out of the Limited Entry draw over a 5-year time frame. This should also be considered for Lifetime tags as well.

Also change the 9:1 ratio on CWMU tags for more are in the draw.
 
BrowningRage said:
Though a dead horse topic, it is still fun to rehash ideas from our recliners.

Is there any reason taking the One-or-the-Other approach couldn't help.? You either put in for LE, or general season, but not both. Deer and elk.
Click to expand...
Yes….yes there is a reason…..

Money…..DNR will miss out on all the $10.00 application free money.
 
ridgetops said:
I think your the one that needs to revisit your math. A person with 10+ points has a much better chance at getting a tag over someone competing in a random draw.
Click to expand...


Go check those OIL tags.

But here.

San Juan, Le elk, rifle 10pts= .42% odds
Boulder= .54%
Manti= 3.7%
Beaver= .54%

Deer, Le rifle

oak creeks= .87%
Henry's= .30%
Pauns=1.2%
Vernon=3.9%

Rocky MTN sheep
Oak creeks at 1.9%, no other sheep unit even close.


So, NO, in most cases your 10 points vs no points are useless . Or, you have a 98% chance TO NOT DRAW.

Points are like the drug dealer giving you a little taste to keep you buying more down the road
 
hossblur said:
No disrespect, but you'll be surprised to see what happens to those points you own after you pass
Click to expand...
Is there anything in the proclamation that says the person you apply with in a group application has to be alive?
You don't think someone hasn't used dearly departed grandpa's points in a group application and then tossed his tag in the garbage?
 
elkantlers said:
Is there anything in the proclamation that says the person you apply with in a group application has to be alive?
You don't think someone hasn't used dearly departed grandpa's points in a group application and then tossed his tag in the garbage?
Click to expand...
That's a first for me to hear this particular way to gain an advantage over someone else but goes along with putting in wives, mothers, and grandmothers which have been claimed before.

Hoss, play your totally random chances on the sportsman tags or hunt expo. Maybe that will work out. And sure while your at it might as well loose points if you draw any of those tags too.
 
hossblur said:
Don't need 5years. End it next year. Points are a #, you don't own them, they aren't worth any value. You make an announcement that starting 2023, all draws are 100% random, giving each applicant the exact odds as every other.

The DWR doesn't lose a dime. And for every dude howling about points, another dude will cheer for actually making LE hunts available to them.

As to CWMU. At the very least they should have the same waiting periods. Then guys can decide if buying that tag, is worth 5years waiting. Without the guarantee of repeat business, the prices would come under control, opening that option up to more folks as well.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but after putting in for 20 yrs without drawing a tag yet, I would be against that idea (I know that shocks you! ?). And if they made that change, I would never apply again. I suspect I wouldn’t be the only one to drop out. So, yes, they have the potential to lose some money with that deal.

Sure, other states like New Mexico do that, but they don’t have nearly as dismal the odds of drawing as Utah.

How about double the tag numbers and have people shoot “only” a 300-330 bull. 95% of people would be satisfied with that.
 
middlefork said:
That's a first for me to hear this particular way to gain an advantage over someone else but goes along with putting in wives, mothers, and grandmothers which have been claimed before.

Hoss, play your totally random chances on the sportsman tags or hunt expo. Maybe that will work out. And sure while your at it might as well loose points if you draw any of those tags too.
Click to expand...
I know this happens a lot, especially for General deer and antlerless.
 
Personally I’ve always enjoyed the idea that if I wanted to hunt elk that year, I can guarantee my self I could. And honestly that’s how it is, everybody who really wants the tag can get it. There’s slackers who waited until after the 12 hours And didn’t get one but they obviously didn’t want one that bad. With the draw system everybody and their dog will be putting in cause they have a month to do it, lessening the odds of the people who actually make use of the tag and care too have it. Anyways, my point is, it would really suck too see the last Utah tag that I am guaranteed to be able to hunt get taken away from me.
 
First remove the waiting periods and only being able to put in for one species,

1 points system for all hunts, no split between a bonus and preference system. Pick your poison, hunt every year or every 5-10 years. Every year you’re unsuccessful you get another point, but each point gives you that many chances (numbers) in the drawing.

Switching to this system is great, now those who have been putting in for 20 plus years still have a greater chance to draw. Now no one is getting screwed over.

Classify the hunts as standard or premium. Lifetime license holders get a standard tag, then draw everything else… dedicated hunter is a separate draw license for that area. Draw out every year for that hunt, still do 8 hours of service the year when you have that tag, no buying hours.

List 4 choices and once your number is draw your 4 choices get looked at, if nothing is available then move to the next guy.

Do this with all species!
 
txhunter58 said:
Sure, other states like New Mexico do that, but they don’t have nearly as dismal the odds of drawing as Utah.
Click to expand...

That depends. In NM you can go 25 years without drawing a tag while your neighbor down the street draws every other year for something and you both have identical applications.
 
One more reason to pick up your tag in person rather than try to draw a tag in a flooded draw pool with deceased folks and too old to hunt folks. Another reason to wear your tag on your vest for all to see so that young grand kid hunter cannot hunt off gam gam’s tag.
 
As well as in Idaho, however most of that is self inflicted by the unit you put in for. Someone like Bess going for the gold may never draw… someone putting in for an area like the wasatch may be able to draw it 5 or 10 times. But that’s why you rank your choices…

Nothing is certain or a given, but if you’re currently unsuccessful you don’t get a point in New Mexico or Idaho. With this hybrid system you would have increased chances of drawing for each.
 
hossblur said:
Go check those OIL tags.

But here.

San Juan, Le elk, rifle 10pts= .42% odds
Boulder= .54%
Manti= 3.7%
Beaver= .54%

Deer, Le rifle

oak creeks= .87%
Henry's= .30%
Pauns=1.2%
Vernon=3.9%

Rocky MTN sheep
Oak creeks at 1.9%, no other sheep unit even close.


So, NO, in most cases your 10 points vs no points are useless . Or, you have a 98% chance TO NOT DRAW.

Points are like the drug dealer giving you a little taste to keep you buying more down the road
Click to expand...
Those are not the true odds of drawing.
 
BLooDTRaCKeR said:
One more reason to pick up your tag in person rather than try to draw a tag in a flooded draw pool with deceased folks and too old to hunt folks. Another reason to wear your tag on your vest for all to see so that young grand kid hunter cannot hunt off gam gam’s tag.
Click to expand...

It's all going to a draw because several people are against it.
 
How about limit technology and rifle tags on the general deer hunt. Push the buck to do ratio up to 22 to 24 bucks for 100 does. If you lessen technology and up the buck to doe ratio you could still give out quite a few tags and have a better quality hunt. Then not drawing an LE tag wouldn't be so bitter, because you have a decent General tag. Also give out more elk tags on these Le units. The elk are so resilient. Winters aren't nearly as hard on them. If the top end drops a little bit on these units who cares. It would be more in line with Wyoming and Colorado which is fine. Also require the cwmu's to give 20% of their tags to the public. I think doing all this would solve many problems.
 
schoolhousegrizz said:
How about limit technology and rifle tags on the general deer hunt. Push the buck to do ratio up to 22 to 24 bucks for 100 does. If you lessen technology and up the buck to doe ratio you could still give out quite a few tags and have a better quality hunt. Then not drawing an LE tag wouldn't be so bitter, because you have a decent General tag. Also give out more elk tags on these Le units. The elk are so resilient. Winters aren't nearly as hard on them. If the top end drops a little bit on these unit who cares. It would be more in line with Wyoming and Colorado which is fine. Also require the cwmu's to give 20% of their tags to the public. I think doing all this would solve many problems.
Click to expand...
Other than removing scopes from muzzleloaders, what would you recommend to limit technology? This isn’t me trying to poke holes in your recommendations or start anything. I’m genuinely curious what you would propose.
 
CFMuley said:
Other than removing scopes from muzzleloaders, what would you recommend to limit technology? This isn’t me trying to poke holes in your recommendations or start anything. I’m genuinely curious what you would propose.
Click to expand...
All types of trail cams banned from Aug 1 to Jan 1. Limit rifle tags and turn them in to archery and muzzleloader tags. Rifle hunters can still have most their gadgets (no smart scopes) but it'll be harder to get tags. No thermal vision allowed. Shut down some of the road access and make more walk-in areas. No automatic smartsites on bows. No rifle hunts right during the peak rut for elk. Give out more LE tags. Make the general tags better, and LE more of a hunt, but still better than general. Muzzleloader requirements will be more like the old Hawkins muzzleloaders. Also, over the next five to ten years transition the point system to Nevada's system.
 
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