Utah bison

[jims]

Although Utah bison tags are one of the toughest in North America to draw there are a few lucky hunters each year. I’m curious how this years hunts have gone?

 

[deerkiller]

Heard there’s been some struggles to get into them on the Henry’s by many. But the guys who know what they are doing have seemed to do decent.

 

[deerslayer88]

Heard there’s been some struggles to get into them on the Henry’s by many. But the guys who know what they are doing have seemed to do decent.

Get the damn cows off the Heneries and let the Bison use the cows grazing allotment!

 

[Gorilla]

I was down there for the 1st cow hunt and it seems like this year was a super tough year for sure. Nothing like the all the YouTube videos I watched. My guess is the lack of snow allowed for a ton of road pressure to be put on the bison which pushed them in the hard to get places like Swap Mesa and Cave Flat. In the middle of December, you could still get a truck through Bull Creek Pass. Maybe 3-5 inches of snow on the top of Mt Ellen.

The guys who camped next to us got there a week before the 1st cow hunt opened. They scouted McMillian Springs, Pennell Pass and the Coyote Benches areas hard for a week leading up to the hunt and set up a few trail cams over water. They did not find a single cow prior to the hunt opening.

I heard of one tag holder who filled their tag opening morning using a guide outfitter with a bunch of horses and pack stock out on Swap Mesa.

We logged 200 OHV miles, 70 horse miles and 20 miles on foot over 5 days before our hunter filled their tag.

As we were packing up camp I heard that an outfitter with a bunch of guys pushing the thick cedars on foot around Mt Pennell area turned up a lone cow that their tag holder killed.

BTW...The camp next to us still had not seen a cow after 5 days in to the hunt.

Of the 10 cow tags, I only know of 3 that were filled half way through the hunt and it wasn't looking good for the army of SxS road hunters.

My advice for anybody wants to do this hunt, pay the money to somebody who knows the area and has good pack stock.

 

[hornkiller]

The year i turned 14 my old man asked me what i wanted to kill buff sheep moose or goat im really regretting telling him I want to kill a buffalo! I would much rather have sheep points at this point! I would have drew a bull tag this year
"by the odds" if the wonderful UT Fish&game wouldn't have eliminated a bunch of non res hunts thanks $.F.W.! May not be worth hunting by the time I draw and it just doubled in price.

 

[Blank]

Just watched Ivan Carter's show on Utah Bison conservation last night on the Sportsmans Channel. Covered bot Antelope Island and the Henry's. Really interesting and great aerial shots of the country and animals. There is a YouTube video of the show also. If you haven't seen that country and the herd before, it was really interesting.

 

[GoHigher]

The year i turned 14 my old man asked me what i wanted to kill buff sheep moose or goat im really regretting telling him I want to kill a buffalo! I would much rather have sheep points at this point! I would have drew a bull tag this year
"by the odds" if the wonderful UT Fish&game wouldn't have eliminated a bunch of non res hunts thanks $.F.W.! May not be worth hunting by the time I draw and it just doubled in price.

Yep, I'm in the same boat as you. Its pretty un-nerving that they also divided up the Book Cliffs Bison hunts into different dates/hunts. Less bonus tags available for NRs now too for each of these hunts. I have just gotten used to the Utah DWR screwing up everything. Nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[jims]

Blank, thanks for the tip on the video! I’ll have to take a look.

Utah definitely is a nightmare for nonres bison even with max pts. Every time they split or add new seasons there aren’t enough tags issued to allow 1 bonus pt tag to nonres. Last year I think only 1 or 2 tags were issued in the nonres bonus pt draw.

It’s also a bummer they don’t wait until tag allotments are posted so nonres know which unit and season may have random tags. the resident deadline is delayed until these are posted. As it sits it’s a guessing game for nonres? I’m not sure if Utah biologists may know before the deadline? It would definitely be worth a phone call to find out.

 

[highfastflyer]

Lots of cows and a few good bulls taken on the OTC hunt. Nine Mile, Range Creek bison oppor-tunity (new)Starting in 2020, the Utah Wildlife Board approved a new bison hunting opportunity for the Nine Mile, Range Creek unit. This unit is extraordinarily rugged and difficult to access. The odds of a successful hunt are low. Hunters who are willing to give up any future opportunities to apply for a bison permit in the big game drawing may purchase an over-the-counter bison hunting permit for this area. There is a mandatory online course before you can purchase a permit. The course explains the access issues in detail and is very direct in describing the challenges of the hunt. For additional details about this hunt and to take the course, visit wildlife.utah.gov/biggame.Permits will be available for purchase starting July 21, 2020. You can buy the permits at wildlife.utah.gov and at license agent loca-tions and Division offices.Important: If you purchase a permit for this hunt, you will forfeit any future op-portunities to apply for a bison permit in the big game drawing. You can, however, continue to purchase this permit annually as long as the permit is offered.

 

[jims]

Has anyone else heard how the limited hunts have gone or if there has been any indication of how many tags and seasons will exist in 2021?

 

[Uttaxi1]

I have taken in a couple nice bulls from the OTC unit and know of several more. The limited units seem to be tough this season.

 

[cannonball]

My Granddaughter drew with zero points, first either-sex hunt, and shot a great bull. Of course she had good help that knew what they were doing and had done their homework.

 

[DonVathome]

jims we think alike! Calls might help I also look at units where resident quotas are nearing 17 pr 18 (which means with 1 NR tag already they are approaching 2 NR tags). I do that with elk. So far it never worked! Loose the horn ego and you can get a cow buf tag pretty easy if you really look around.......................

 

[DBLung]

Get the damn cows off the Heneries and let the Bison use the cows grazing allotment!

The stupidest most ignorant comment of the year award goes to??? Hey deerslayer go tell the ranchers in that area which includes most of the people who live there, along with economy they're not welcome anymore. Nothing more precious than a city slicker telling the rest of Utah how it should be.

 

[deerkiller]

The stupidest most ignorant comment of the year award goes to??? Hey deerslayer go tell the ranchers in that area which includes most of the people who live there, along with economy they're not welcome anymore. Nothing more precious than a city slicker telling the rest of Utah how it should be.

Those ranchers stand up there at the wb meeting and tell the public how many deer, elk, pronghorn, bison, moose and sheep can exist on the landscape, most of which is public land... why should it only be a one way street? A private herd grazing for private benefit on public resources should come 2nd to the state’s wildlife. Not the other way around.

 

[deerslayer88]

The stupidest most ignorant comment of the year award goes to??? Hey deerslayer go tell the ranchers in that area which includes most of the people who live there, along with economy they're not welcome anymore. Nothing more precious than a city slicker telling the rest of Utah how it should be.

Awe, sorry you are bent over my comment! Learn the facts of what the ranchers get in Fed subsidies, the cost of beef isn't dropping either. I really don't give a crap if you think I am a city slicker either. Guess the trophies on my wall are all from a city slicker.

The funny thing is if you looked into the bull crap the ranchers get and how they devalue our game you'd feel the same. DWR is there thining the herds ruining opportunity so the cattle can stay on the rangeland.

 

[deerslayer88]

Those ranchers stand up there at the wb meeting and tell the public how many deer, elk, pronghorn, bison, moose and sheep can exist on the landscape, most of which is public land... why should it only be a one way street? A private herd grazing for private benefit on public resources should come 2nd to the state’s wildlife. Not the other way around.

I think his family tree has little to no branching it must be the drought or global warming.

 

[DBLung]

I think his family tree has little to no branching it must be the drought or global warming

Your intelligence is astonishing. Should've realized what kind of imbecile I was commenting with.

 

[hoss]

Hey been away from the forum for a bit, any word on how the later Henries buff hunts went? Successful for most? Unsuccessful?

 

[hornkiller]

I'm gonna say mostly unsuccessful

 

[cannonball]

DBlung, Don't agree with deerslayer, but that being said, the ranchers don't seem to be a friend to the sportsmen. When the deer are gone and the only thing I can do is camp on Federal Land I will be complaining about the cows being in my camp. They don't seem to understand that one day the Lib's and recreationalists will be in control and they may be kicked off of the mountain. If I were them I would like all the friends I could get and not want the whole mountain. I am from rural Utah and believe me a lot of them do think they own all of the mountain ranges.

 

[DBLung]

DBlung, Don't agree with deerslayer, but that being said, the ranchers don't seem to be a friend to the sportsmen. When the deer are gone and the only thing I can do is camp on Federal Land I will be complaining about the cows being in my camp. They don't seem to understand that one day the Lib's and recreationalists will be in control and they may be kicked off of the mountain. If I were them I would like all the friends I could get and not want the whole mountain. I am from rural Utah and believe me a lot of them do think they own all of the mountain ranges.

Cannonball, You bring up a good point. However, ranchers aren't the reason there are no deer. 50 years ago there were 4-5 times the livestock grazing on the mountain, with even more so that same number higher in deer. Ungulate numbers are dwindling for a bunch of reasons. The biggest reasons are mostly related to winter and predation. Loss of winter habitat, more traffic on roads etc. The only time sportsmen have any reaction to livestock is during the summer and early fall when they're camping on the mountain. The problem isn't the livestock. The problem is the lack of education, understanding, and respect for each other. If the only time I dealt with livestock was when they were in my camp, I would be upset too. I guess that's why I avoid the city. Every time I see a city slicker try to kill my family on the freeway I get mad too. I guess I should shout that all city slickers should be banned from the city, because I hate dealing with them when I go to the city a few times a year. That's the equivalent to deerslayers comment. Sportsmen can complain about livestock or they could educate themselves, and be more respectful. Ranchers too!

 

[deerkiller]

Ranchers are anything but respectful when it comes to the public and the public areas they share with those people. I’ve had them straight up tell me they have more ‘right’ to be in a public area than I do, because they “pay a yearly fee to be there”. Well excuse the F outta me! I only pay state and federal taxes weekly. I pay state registration and licensing fees for my truck and bike/ATV. I purchase a yearly combination hunting/fishing license as well as pay fees for permits to hunt animals in the same areas their animals graze. The entitlement they have is the issue. And with that entitlement attitude, comes the mind set that they can dictate the numbers of wildlife that compete against their private animals for feed every summer and fall.

if they changed their attitude and approach to the way they handled things, there might be some understanding. But currently, there’s getting to be many people sick of the way things are going, and those numbers grow yearly.

 

[cannonball]

Cannonball, You bring up a good point. However, ranchers aren't the reason there are no deer. 50 years ago there were 4-5 times the livestock grazing on the mountain, with even more so that same number higher in deer. Ungulate numbers are dwindling for a bunch of reasons. The biggest reasons are mostly related to winter and predation. Loss of winter habitat, more traffic on roads etc. The only time sportsmen have any reaction to livestock is during the summer and early fall when they're camping on the mountain. The problem isn't the livestock. The problem is the lack of education, understanding, and respect for each other. If the only time I dealt with livestock was when they were in my camp, I would be upset too. I guess that's why I avoid the city. Every time I see a city slicker try to kill my family on the freeway I get mad too. I guess I should shout that all city slickers should be banned from the city, because I hate dealing with them when I go to the city a few times a year. That's the equivalent to deerslayers comment. Sportsmen can complain about livestock or they could educate themselves, and be more respectful. Ranchers too!

I am not saying a thing about the rancher's cattle or sheep being bad for the mountain. I really think their animals help the range by keeping the growth down and new rather than overgrown. Mis-management of the Wildlife Life Board and DWR will kill off the deer and I don't elk hunt. The fact remains the ranchers seem to think they are owners of the mountain and they could be more receptive to more deer rather than "kill them off!" That is their attitude.

 

[Daxter]

I think it would be really interesting if congress reformed the Taylor Grazing Act and had all the public land grazing permits come up for an open auction every 10 years. Then, whomever wanted to pay the most could get the the permits (a free market solution). If a grazer wanted to purchase a permit and run their cows, they could do that. However, they might have to pay a higher amount for the AUM's rather than the very heavily subsidized federal grazing fees. This would implement a free market solution and end federal subsidies to permitees. Free markets and fewer government subsidies are usually principles that are embraced by conservative rural communities in the west...

At the same time, in a free market situation if the Sierra Club or Western Watersheds purchased the grazing permit they could rest the allotment and save the forage for watershed or wildlife use. If a sportsmen group purchased the permit perhaps they could work with the state and temporarily raise population objectives for bison/elk/deer/antelope etc. for the benefit of sportsmen and the wildlife loving public.

I'd be very interested to see what would happen if this became more of a free market situation without the government subsidies.

 

[DBLung]

I think it would be really interesting if congress reformed the Taylor Grazing Act and had all the public land grazing permits come up for an open auction every 10 years. Then, whomever wanted to pay the most could get the the permits (a free market solution). If a grazer wanted to purchase a permit and run their cows, they could do that. However, they might have to pay a higher amount for the AUM's rather than the very heavily subsidized federal grazing fees. This would implement a free market solution and end federal subsidies to permitees. Free markets and fewer government subsidies are usually principles that are embraced by conservative rural communities in the west...

At the same time, in a free market situation if the Sierra Club or Western Watersheds purchased the grazing permit they could rest the allotment and save the forage for watershed or wildlife use. If a sportsmen group purchased the permit perhaps they could work with the state and temporarily raise population objectives for bison/elk/deer/antelope etc. for the benefit of sportsmen and the wildlife loving public.

I'd be very interested to see what would happen if this became more of a free market situation without the government subsidies.

Go talk to the forest service and the DWR, and ask them if grazing hurts or helps. 15 years ago SFW purchased the grazing rights in several areas to boost deer/elk numbers and study areas for wild sheep introduction. With the exception of a few, all those areas were turned back over to grazing. Grazing is good for many reasons. You and a few others keep bringing up government subsidies. I implore you to educate yourself on it. Somewhere sportsmen ingested a narrative by eco crazies about it. All farmers will receive a subsidy once in a while. Usually for unusual acts of nature and catastrophic circumstances. You make it sound like its a every day lazy rancher leeching off government for a living horse crap. Imagine a life where you loose or keep your home, family, everything, if it rains or not. No city slicker can comprehend the stress a rancher goes through. No rancher could possibly make a living without help from the government once in a while. The only times I've ever seen a problem with subsidies, it was with hobby farmers taking advantage of the system.

 

[deerkiller]

Go talk to the forest service and the DWR, and ask them if grazing hurts or helps. 15 years ago SFW purchased the grazing rights in several areas to boost deer/elk numbers and study areas for wild sheep introduction. With the exception of a few, all those areas were turned back over to grazing. Grazing is good for many reasons. You and a few others keep bringing up government subsidies. I implore you to educate yourself on it. Somewhere sportsmen ingested a narrative by eco crazies about it. All farmers will receive a subsidy once in a while. Usually for unusual acts of nature and catastrophic circumstances. You make it sound like its a every day lazy rancher leeching off government for a living horse crap. Imagine a life where you loose or keep your home, family, everything, if it rains or not. No city slicker can comprehend the stress a rancher goes through. No rancher could possibly make a living without help from the government once in a while. The only times I've ever seen a problem with subsidies, it was with hobby farmers taking advantage of the system.

Last time I checked, no one forced them to run cattle for a living. They choose to do that. They all know the risks from the start on choosing that career path. Don’t paint the picture that they are the victims of the lifestyle they were forced into. They are victims of their choices that they made.

 

[rutnbuck]

Had a friend hunt the last cow hunt. Henry's Went down two days early. Hunted every day of the hunt. Never seen a bison till the last day. But light was fading didn't have time to get in on them. Tag soup

 

[Daxter]

Go talk to the forest service and the DWR, and ask them if grazing hurts or helps. 15 years ago SFW purchased the grazing rights in several areas to boost deer/elk numbers and study areas for wild sheep introduction. With the exception of a few, all those areas were turned back over to grazing. Grazing is good for many reasons. You and a few others keep bringing up government subsidies. I implore you to educate yourself on it. Somewhere sportsmen ingested a narrative by eco crazies about it. All farmers will receive a subsidy once in a while. Usually for unusual acts of nature and catastrophic circumstances. You make it sound like its a every day lazy rancher leeching off government for a living horse crap. Imagine a life where you loose or keep your home, family, everything, if it rains or not. No city slicker can comprehend the stress a rancher goes through. No rancher could possibly make a living without help from the government once in a while. The only times I've ever seen a problem with subsidies, it was with hobby farmers taking advantage of the system.

You are right that well-managed grazing can be beneficial in some areas. When it's done right, it is a really powerful tool for land and habitat management. I spent a lot of time on Deseret Land and Livestock Ranch and saw some amazing things accomplished with well-planned and intensely-managed livestock grazing. I've also seen a lot of public grazing permits that were hammered, overutilized and abused. All that being said, the question of whether that public land grazing should be done by wild bison or elk vs privately owned beef is still an interesting one. A free market solution would allow for different way to decide how that forage would be removed, it might even still be done by ranchers with their livestock.

I do understand many of the government subsides to agriculture. You're right that almost all farmers receive a subsidy once in a while. The Farm Bill is full of subsidies for farmers and ranchers to help keep commodity prices low. A lot of this was done to keep food plentiful and affordable, of course folks in the ag business have also lobbied pretty hard for these programs too as they help keep them profitable and competitive in what is now a global market. Programs like the CRP and WHIP grants have provided a lot of benefit to wildlife and financial benefits to producers too.

Ranching and ag is a career/lifestyle choice. It is a risky business and it depends on a lot of external factors that are outside the control of producers. I don't like seeing wildlife take disproportionate heat when conditions get tough. Often it is wildlife that get pushed around because state wildlife agencies tend to be more responsive than the federal agencies (for example the feds won't manage their "wild" horse numbers) and nobody tells mother nature what to do. Usually it's wildlife that get forced to reduce numbers. In Utah almost all the elk, bison and pronghorn population objectives are set not based on a biological carrying capacity, but rather on a social carrying capacity. In many cases the state carries much lower numbers of wildlife to allow for more forage to be taken by public land grazers.

I tend to have a conservative political world view so I like the idea of market-based solutions. I still think it would be really interesting to see the person or group that want it the most show it with their high bids. However, I strongly doubt that our current grazing systems will ever change due to legislation to encourage free markets. If anything ever changes with public land grazing it is far more likely that it comes from a court decision to a challenge from a non-profit advocacy group or from a directive of the US Fish and Wildlife Service after an endangered species listing (maybe greater sage grouse?). Both of those scenarios scare me though.

 

[utfireman]

Get the damn cows off the Heneries and let the Bison use the cows grazing allotment!

You can thank SFW, they’ve been buying grazing permits there for awhile and buy them when they come available.

 

[jims]

I would be curious if anyone happens to know the biologists or some other contact for the Henry's and Book Cliffs that may have an idea which bison seasons may have 1 nonres bonus pool tag available? It always seems like a toss of the dice each year. Unfortunately tag numbers aren't available until after the nonres application deadline.

It certainly would be nice if Utah had the early nonres draw deadline but allowed nonres hunters the opportunity to change their unit and season options after quotas are announced! I'm pretty sure Utah res tag deadlines are after quotas are posted?

 

[deerkiller]

I would be curious if anyone happens to know the biologists or some other contact for the Henry's and Book Cliffs that may have an idea which bison seasons may have 1 nonres bonus pool tag available? It always seems like a toss of the dice each year. Unfortunately tag numbers aren't available until after the nonres application deadline.

It certainly would be nice if Utah had the early nonres draw deadline but allowed nonres hunters the opportunity to change their unit and season options after quotas are announced! I'm pretty sure Utah res tag deadlines are after quotas are posted?

Utah draw deadlines are the same res and non res hunters. Every person rolls the dice on the unit they apply for and tags given that year. That’s just how it goes in Utah. Biologists don’t know tag numbers yet. Some they have no idea and won’t for another couple months.

 

[jims]

Oops my mistake! I guess it would be nice for both res and nonres to be able to change tag choices after tag quotas are posted!