Utah Management Hunts

J

JDC

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I was reviewing the agenda for the upcoming RAC meetings and was wondering what the reason is for discontinuing the management bull hunts on the Pahvant, SW Desert, San Juan, and Monroe. Did this program work out well and bring the bull component of the bull/cow ratios into line with objectives? Were there too many "illegal" (6x6) bulls taken during these hunts? It seemed like a good idea for those areas that have a bull heavy population. Maybe they are being eliminated to make room for the state wide general season spike only hunts. I realize that this may be a sensitive subject for some, but I would like to know what the reasoning is behind eliminating these hunts.

I apologize if this has been beat around already and I missed it.

Thanks,

Jon
www.HuntersTrailhead.com
 
Hey Jon it was discontinued because there are a buch of jelous guys that didnt like someone shooting a broken 5x6.

People in this state dont care if you shoot a spike but dont go and shoot a broken bull or they will come unglued.

Jon
I am against the state wide spike proposal

This proposal does two things it hurts the guys applying for a Limited entry tag and plugs up the bonus point system.

Here is my example
I am going to use the Dutton and the Boulder Limited entry units. These Limited entry units sit side by side and are pretty much separated by an asphalt road. The Boulder gives spike tags and the Dutton does not. The Dutton issues a total of 145 big bull tags. The Boulder(spike) area only issues a total of 83 big bull tags. That is a difference of 62 big bull tags.

To put this into perspective you have to look at the bonus point system as well
If a hunter had 5 points with the current system right now for the Dutton early hunt he/she is guaranteed a tag in 37.33 years if you are the last one in your point group to draw. That is a long time for a shot at a branch antlered bull. In fact if I had 5 points I would be 73 years old before I would be guaranteed a shot at a branch antlered bull. This is excessive IMHO.

The new proposal would further hurt the 50,000 plus people putting in for their chance at a branch antlered bull every year. A bull is a bull, whether you kill them as a spike or as 6 point. I personally believe the guys putting in for these units need their chances at a branch antlered bull that's what they want.

I believe we should keep the state wide spike units we already have? I just don't believe we should have any more. There is enough opportunity in this state to meat hunt or to fill your freezer if you want by applying for the already spike elk hunts, cow elk hunts, antelope doe hunts, mule deer doe hunts, cow moose hunts, rabbit hunts, and bird hunts.

There is not enough opportunity to hunt a branch antlered bull in this state. I would like to see more big bull tags increased instead of having spike hunts.

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
+1 swbuckmaster,
to sum up what he said, shooting a spike on a LE unit is a WASTE of a bull!

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
SW,
I am apposed to the State Wide Spike hunt also, BUT.

Your math does NOT add up and create an argument for opportunity.

Dutton 145 tags for bulls
Boulder 85 tags for big bulls, plus hundreds of spike hunters.

Boulder is giving way more opportunity for people to hunt bulls.

Your assuming that everyone wants to just hunt for big bulls every 10-20 years. There are people that want to hunt for big bulls every 10-20 years plus a spike every year.
 
swbuckmaster- What you are saying really doesn't make any sense. You are making it sound like someone in utah who just wants to hunt a branch antlered bull will wait 40-70 plus years. Are you forgetting that utah issues 14,300 general any bull tags?

Comparing dutton to boulder is like apples to oranges. Why don't you look at the wasatch if you want to look at units with spike hunts. The wasatch get pounded by spike hunters and yet it still issues 87 archery tags 199 early rifle tags 52 muzzy tags and 11 premium tags. More then any other unit.

You act like the big bad trophy hunters are the problem and get jealous when someone shoots a broken 5x6 but you are trying to eliminate the meat hunters by closing the spike hunt. If you aren't a meat hunter and you aren't a trophy hunter then where do you stand?

IMO the spike hunt is the best thing that has ever happened to utahs elk herd. Our population is exploding, the quality gets better and better every year, it allows meat hunters to get out and take an elk every year without affecting quality, the division of wildlife makes good money selling spike tags.

Most of our units have a bull to cow ratio way out of whack. So obviously the spike hunt isn't hurting anything or anyone. If we managed elk the way you are saying then we would be just like colorado. The quality in colorado sucks!! If you want to just hunt a small branch antlered bull every year then why don't you take advantage of the 14,300 tags?

Utah has the best of both worlds. The meat hunters get to hunt spike every year. The trophy hunters are willing to wait for a world class animal and the guys who just want to hunt a branch antlered bull can take advantage of the open bull units. So what is the problem?
 
I agree with swbuckmaster. The proposal is wrong in my opinion. We already have PLENTY of opportunity to hunt spikes on the already present spike units! If I ever want a tag to hunt spikes.........the opportunity is already there! Why chance messing up a good thing?..........just my thoughts.
 
I've been emailing back and forth with one of the Southern Rac members and here's a quote from what he wrote me regarding the management bull elk hunts....

"What I don't understand is that as an elk committee we got the managment hunts for elk. The Division was suppose to hold meetings with those hunters and explain what we were trying to do. Kill the bulls that no one else wanted. They never held the meetings or gave any explanation as to what the goal was. Now they are calling it a failure and are asking for it to go away. The difference between elk and deer is that we are capped on the number of elk we can have in the state and we are not capped on the deer."

Um doesn't that make for a pretty easy fix?? Find a couple volunteers to have a meeting or even place a phone call with those tag holders and explain what the purpose and objective of the hunt is?? Nope just call the $HIT a failure and end it!! LMAO @ UDWR!!!!!!!

~Z~
 
Interesting that this topic has come up. My family took advantage of this hunt on the SW dessert and we have 2 of the 24 tags they handed out. I know this unit well and we have been out there checking things out. We saw seven 5 points that were over 300 inches on Saturday and another non typical shooter that is HUGE. These elk will always be 5 points and nothing else.
The tags that we have are for my 18 year old brother and my 65 year old grandfather. This is great for both of them because they will be able to shoot a respectable elk and we will have an awesome time. In doing so we will help weed out the bad 5 point genetic from this area. I don't understand how anyone could say that this has been an unsuccessfull program. In my eyes we are trying to getting rid of the bad genetics. This is happening! People are not out there shooting 390 6 points. With this hunt we are offering opportunities to people that are thrilled to shoot a 300 in bull. In the long run we are allowing the superior genetics to become more dominant in these units.
Call me crazy but it seems to me that this is common sense. Somebody needs to step back and see the entire picture. Spend some time in the units and not behind a desk. I am taling both about the DWR and the other organizations that are influencing these decisions.

On a side note I think that we are making a huge mistake with the statewide spike elk hunt.
 
Did anyone with the DWR contact you to discuss the purpose of those tags?? Do you think maybe what everyone's opinions may differ on what a management bull really is, also what the DWR considers a management bull?? I'm just asking questions is all, not trying to harass you for having the tags k. The DWR is making the mistakes and calling it a failure because they aren't smart enough to do what they had planned in the first place....what a joke!! I wonder what's going to happen with the new management Pauns and Henry tags for deer...same damn thing!! Run it for a few years, make a few extra bucks, then shut it down!!

~Z~
 
The DWR sent us a letter informaing us that the bull needs to have 5 points or less on one side. They made it very CLEAR. To be honest with you if they did have a meeting I would not waste my time. In my eyes it is pretty clear as to what is a managment bull. It is the 5 points on SW Dessert.
Don't know if you have ever been on SW dessert before and I can't speak for the other units but it is very easy to find a 330 inch 5 point. We have our eye on one bull that will go over 370. The thing with these 5 points is that no one will shoot whem when they draw the LE Rifle/Muzzle/Bow tags. I don't Blame them. When i finally draw my LE tag I will not be shooting a 5 point. Luckily I don't put in for units that have the dominant 5 point genetic. Those 5 points are everywhere. Also, they are not small bulls. They carry tons of mass and have great tine length. However in Utah we are obsessed with the score and a 5 point just doesn't score great even though they are huge. Like I said before we saw multiple 5 points that will go over 300 and a couple that will go over 350.
As far as what is a managment bull I think that it is has been made very clear. Anything with 5 points or less on one side.
 
I believe you guy I really do. What is confusing though is if it was made so clearly then why are they calling it a failure and proposing to shut it down?? I wouldn't want to draw a tag in a 5 point dominant area either!! Shutting down the management hunts isn't going to help the situation out at all though, agree??

One thing I can guarantee we'll disagree on though, all you are doing is "trophy management" hunting!! Trying to find the best one possible. And that's ok, do as you want as you have the tag and it's legal ;-) just don't complain about it being 5 point dominant ever again...the only way to know if that bull will always be a 5 point is if you kill him soon!!
I think it's also VERY CLEAR a management hunt is set up to get rid of the worse possible genetics in the herd and I highly doubt that any 370", 5 point, bull has the worst genetics on the mountain...

~Z~
 
NeverStopHuntin says ?swbuckmaster- What you are saying really doesn't make any sense. You are making it sound like someone in utah who just wants to hunt a branch antlered bull will wait 40-70 plus years. Are you forgetting that utah issues 14,300 general any bull tags??

What I am stating are the facts If you have 5 points and you are the last in your point group to draw you will have to wait 37 years to hunt on the LE Dutton early rifle hunt right now. If they issue spike tags they cannot give out as many LE tags so it will take you more than 40 years to draw and could be as much as 70 years. This is BS

NeverStopHuntin says ?Comparing dutton to boulder is like apples to oranges.?

NO its not! They are right next to each other; they are almost the same size in area. They both share the same winter range, the difference is one gives out twice as many LE Tags.

Bowhunt says ?Your assuming that everyone wants to just hunt for big bulls every 10-20 years. There are people that want to hunt for big bulls every 10-20 years plus a spike every year.?

What I am saying is we shouldn't have to wait 10-20 years for a tag. Release more big bull tags. The guys that want to hunt spikes can already hunt spikes. I am not trying to take the spike units we already have away.


NeverStopHuntin says ?If we managed elk the way you are saying then we would be just like colorado. The quality in colorado sucks!!?

There are better ways to protect the top end bulls in this state. The management tag was one of the best ways. There is no difference in a spike bull and a broken 6 point or a big 5x5. They are all bulls in the bull to cow ratio. The bulls need to get killed so let them kill them. Let someone who wants to burn their points do the killing. Don?t give these bulls away for free in the form of a spike tag.

Archery tags are another way to protect the top end bulls in this state. Arizona still produces 400? plus bulls every year and literally gives ten times the amount of tags as Utah. This equates to opportunity. Archers simply cannot say when they draw a tag that they are going to go out and kill the cream of the crop on any given unit. They can try but I guarantee you only about 1-3% will succeed at killing the best of the best on any given unit. Archers will more than likely eat tag soup like they do more often then not or settle for the first chance they get.

And taking the rifle hunt out of the rut is another way. You simply cannot have a 99% success rate in a 3 day shoot during the rut and expect to have any more top end bulls.
If we managed our elk like I want the quality would not suck as you say it would be similar to Arizona.

I will make my plea at every rac this month starting with the southern Unit tonight.

The Heck with spike hunts!





Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
never_catch
I do agree that if they shut the managment hunt down that is a huge mistake. It is serving it's purpose there is no doubt in my mind. This is a the second year that they have had the managment hunt in play. I wonder if the decision is influenced by the statewide spike elk hunt. If this is so this is sad and i firnly believe that we are moving in the wrong direction.
I don't really follow you when you say "Don't complain about it being 5 point dominant ever agian. I will complain as long as those genetics are in the area and we do nothing to change this. It is very apperent that you have spent no time on the unit. With this lack of area knowledge you are creating a fairly strong opinion as to how the unit should be managed. If a bull is 5-6 years old and is still a 5 point he is going to always be a 5 point. That is the incredible thing with genetics. His tine length may increase and he may carry more mass but every year he is giong to be a 5 point. I have sheds from the same bull the last 3 years in a row.( one of the bulls that we will be going after on Saturday) He has been a 5 point for the last 3 years. He has more mass now and longer tine length but he is still a 5 point.
TO me this bull is a Managment bull. For the last 3 years he has been breeding cows and passing on the 5 point gene. If we can weed him out we have hops of a 6 point bull with 6 point genetics breeding his cows in the future.
 
The reason they even adopted the elk management hunts was because the old elk plan was expired and was time to make a new plan. And God bless them for it!! The past couple years the DWR has done, in my opinion of course, an excellent job with the states elk herds!! I think most will agree with that...also in doing so they completely forgot that our mule deer herds even existed!! Look at the lack of meat in the new mule deer plan!! It's rediculous...no dramatic changes that will have a positive impact on our deer herds anywhere.

"It is very apperent that you have spent no time on the unit. With this lack of area knowledge you are creating a fairly strong opinion as to how the unit should be managed."

I'm sorry but did I once say how we should manage the area?? No...I didn't...don't want that job!! However I will say that killing the recruitment thru these proposed statewide spike tags is going to hurt every unit and area in the state to some degree as far as "quantity", some worse than others. And taking away the management tags is going to hurt the "quality" in those exact areas. I don't think the DWR wants to manage units and areas anymore though, I think in their minds it's much more simple and financially reasonable to manage the state as a whole?? Maybe i'm wrong...

I told you before I wasn't trying to harass you for having the tag and it's the DWR making the mistakes dude...i'm definately not trying to tell you or anyone how to manage the herds but the way they are proposing is NOT going to do the elk or hunters any good...

~Z~
 
KEEP THE MANAGEMENT HUNTS IN THESE UNITS PLEASE!!!!!!!!

All they've got to do is move the hunts back!!! August 1st through August 15th. The bulls are fully grown and there not BUSTED UP!!! and within a 3 years or so they would have put a huge dent in the 5 points (at least in SWD). Cause it's getting bad out there every year keep seeing more and more 5x5 and 6x5. Most of the time there the heard bull!! Here is one out of many management bulls in the SWD

4910d62934cf6300.jpg
 
Greezee Bulls
We are headed out there on Saturday in Search of Trophy 5 points. We have 2 tags. you willing to share any informaiton?
 
swbuckmaster-
I agree with one thing you are saying. Arizona has got it figured out! By offering archery rut hunts and limiting the rifle rut hunts arizona has and will always produce some amazing bulls. I enjoyed a world class archery elk hunt in arizona last year and the quality is second to none.

The problem i have with ending the spike hunt and adding more bull tags is that i think it would do more bad then good. The fact remains that the bull to cow ratio is a little out of whack. There are too many bulls. Spike tags reduce the number of bulls and what you are saying would also reduce the number of bulls. But if we add more bulls tags the quality will suffer. We all know that sometimes the DWR doesn't know when to quit. Whether it is money or whatever they seem to get greedy and oversell a bunch of tags. If we oversell tags or have a much higher success on bulls then expected it will take years to recover.

The thing i like most about what you are saying is that it will unplug the bonus point pool. You are right about the problem with the bonus points. We just have too many people that want an elk tag. I have read in some of your other posts the idea of moving the rifle hunt out of the rut and giving more archery tags. I have always agreed with this idea. That is the way most states do it and it seems to work great. Switching the hunts around and issueing more archery/muzzy tags would be a great way to allow a few more tags but changing spike tags to bull tags isn't.

I plan on attending several of the RAC meetings (not that it does any good). Maybe i'll see ya there.
 
I drew a san juan archery management tag last year and I think it was a great way to reduce the bull/ cow ratios on these units. It gave a young hunter the chance to have a hunt of a lifetime. These tags were not designed to boost the trophy quality but were used to take out a bull from the herd. I took a decent 5x5 on this hunt and this was the first legal bull besides a spike that we saw. I think this was a great hunt to give hunters a chance to hunt these incredible units.
 
I went down to the southern rac last nigh If you guys don't want to see the bonus point pool suffer you had better get to a rac.
Group applications are going away. I think this is actually a good thing even though I will get screwed on my henneries deer tag, because I gain a year putting in with my buddy.

Point banking is coming! This is bad because they left a loop hole for people to screw the system. It does nothing to help the bonus point system out. It only creates a wider base pyramided scheme. Just because you have points for a particular unit does not mean you are closer to drawing one of these coveted tags.

I say get rid of group applications and leave the drawing process the way it is right now. We have one of the best and most fair system out.

You are going to loose a management hunt for elk and gain a management hunt for deer. They say it didn't work for elk but it will for deer. This is insane.

I am all for management tags it helps give out more opportunity for animals that know body wants people use their points. We need to cull them. We can't afford these bucks/bulls to do the breeding

The big bulls tags are going to get cut these units are going to become harder to draw than a henneries deer tag. I hope you people are younger than I am because I will never get the chance to hunt on one of these LE units unless I shoot a gay spike.
 
The management bull hunt was a good idea but had some flaws. You really have to hunt a management bull in these trophy areas BEFORE they are broken up. There were bulls taken that were busted. And it was really based on the honor system. Pretty easy to knock a point off....stick it in your pocket and say he had 5 on one side. It that ethical? Heck no. Like I said it had flaws, and could be a good tool if managed correctly.
Catman
 
I dont have a problem with a managment hunt before the bulls get busted up. I also dont have a problem if people kill a broken bull.

The DWR says bulls need to be killed. So they will cut the number of big bull tags and issue spike tags. That is their solution. there is no difference in a broken bull and a spike bull. they are just a bull in the bull to cow ratio

there are better ways to control taking the quality out of these units.

Archery is another way. It does two things gets people out of the bonus point system and takes bulls from a wider age range. only about 1%-2% of the people that draw an Archery tag are going to kill the largest bulls on the hill in any given area. this protects the top end quality

Are bulls going to be killed that could have the genitcs to produce 500" horns if they are left to reach their prime age. YES, But killing them as a spike will kill them before they ever grow anything. killing them as a spike will not take people out of the bonus point system in Fact it makes the system worse.

you will see the big bull tags getting cut!!!
 
It's the 2nd icon to the right were your name "HOONER" is:
if you hold it there long enough is will say: send private message
 
I agree with post #15 by Grezzee, that is by far the best way to do it if they keep the management hunt
 
I agree with Greezee and Catman.
I think the management hunt is a great idea, but the dates of the hunt, especially on SW create a problem. As anyone who hunts the SW know, the bulls have a tendency to bust up during the rut quite a bit more than some of the other LE units.
If it is a management hunt to kill off 5 point genetics I am all for it. Lord knows there are a ton of big 5 x 5 bulls on SW. However, when you kill a busted up bull, you could be taking the BEST genetics off the mountain. By allowing busted bulls to be taken, it ceases being a management hunt, and becomes a depredation hunt. Season dates could be changed to allow the management hunts to happen before the rut.

Swbuck,I agree that as far as management objectives go, a bull is a bull. But if you are a tag-holder on a LE unit, that is FAR from the case. I do share your feelings on the statewide spike hunt, however.
------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"
 
We have been talking for years about killing the big 5x's off the Peaks...then they came out with the management hunt and I was excited untile I read the fine print...the proclamation doesn't spell out they want you to shoot mature 320+ 5x's...they want you to kill an elk that is not a 6x6 period...they also checked each animal and found out the hard way that people were shooting busted bulls...I believ most of the bull pics. posted are of fairly young bulls that might be a 6x if they grow up...Goofy was a 6x the year before he died...Nobody shoots big 5x's...they die of old age.
 
The division implemented the management hunt to kill more bull?s period. This is why they are going to the spike hunt.

In my simple little mind if there are a few bulls that get shot that are broken well that's too bad. At least someone had to use their points to draw it. I would prefer they shoot a big 5x5.

There is no difference in a spike bull and a broken bull except the spike bull never got a chance to become someone?s trophy. You never used any points to kill a spike bull. So it hurt the bonus point system, and the spike bull probably ended up in the trash. Wasted resource!!


By the way the south eastern rac showed some balls and passed every thing I am in favor of. YES!!!!!







Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Hey swbuckmaster,
So what did the south eastern rac vote on and pass?
I live out of state and dont know where to look up that
info any input would be great.I hunt in the southeastern
unit is why I was wondering.
Thanks in advance.....
 
The management hunts can be a great tool. The dates were chosen poorely. We have a perfect time on these units right after the Muzzleloader hunt. When the other units are spike hunting. The first week in Oct. There were 34 tags for the SW Desert, if needed I am sure you could find some Dedicated hunter willing to earn hours by helping hunters find and harvest a "management bull". The average age of bulls killed on the SW Desert last year on the management hunt was 4+. I don't see that as a failure.
 
AZHUNTNDAN

What I heard was they voted against the state wide spike hunt. Yes!

They voted for state wide archery, Yes!




Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
The management hunts can be a great tool. The dates were chosen poorely. We have a perfect time on these units right after the Muzzleloader hunt. When the other units are spike hunting. The first week in Oct. There were 34 tags for the SW Desert, if needed I am sure you could find some Dedicated hunter willing to earn hours by helping hunters find and harvest a "management bull". The average age of bulls killed on the SW Desert last year on the management hunt was 4+. I don't see that as a failure.

CC;

Like the DH idea, but why let the 5 points breed another year? Kill them in August so they don't have a chance to Breed that year.
 
The DWR was not trying to genetically weed out five point's out of these herds they were simply trying to bring the bull to cow ratio more in sink, while giving more opportunity for hunters to take some branched antler bulls!! But what happened was since they put the five point or smaller rule in there and these were trophy units, that is exactly what happened people went hunting trophy five points!! They shot themselves in the foot when they did away with the point reinstatment. If they would have left that rule in place and said four point or smaller then the management hunt would have been perfect opportunity for many, many hunters!!

The objective behind the Management hunts was never to kill giant five points!! As far as they are concerned a 330-350 five point is a trophy. How in any shape or form would that be considered a Management Bull, but the general public took advantage of that loophole, that is exactly why they are doing away with it!!

Moral of this long love note, is that these units need alot of bulls weeded out of them, or it will be more devastating to these herds than the hunters will ever be.

I believe they should issue about half again as many tags as there currently are, both on the management side and the big bull side. These herds are going to out grow themselves if we as hunters do not keep them in check!!!

P.S. I will be down on the Pahvant this weekend hunting Management bulls with my buddies son, and you know what we are not hunting trophy fives, we are going down there to take advantage of a killer opportunity to take a branched antler bull for a youth and that is it, if it happens to be a "TROPHY" five then so be it!!!
 
I think they should incorporate a management bull incentive into the normal LE hunts and give more tags instead of spike hunts. If you draw a LE tag and harvest a true management bull you either get points back, no waiting period or some incentive that will encourage the harvest of a management bull. This would decrease young and broken bulls from being harvested. Only do this on the units with high bull/cow ratios.
 

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