Utah proposals are inconsistent

schoolhousegrizz

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Listen to epic Outdoors podcast #274. I do not understand the proposals for some of the units in utah. Primarily Pine valley. It was way over hunted for years and then they cut numbers, then there is a slight up tick and they increase tags by 65%!!!!!!! Are you kidding? The unit is managed for 18-20 bucks. They go off the 3 year average which is 18.9, not even quite to the middle of the objective. LAST YEAR it ticked up slightly to 19.4, (what happened to the 3 year plan?) so they jump tags like crazy??!!! There are other units where they did things that don't make sense as well. They are very quick to increase tags but super slow to cut tags. They don't cut them until it's below objective but they raise them like crazy when it is at objective? What a shame!!!!! Listen to the podcast.
 
The DWR videos are quite good. I don’t agree with everything the DWR says but folks really should watch those videos before asking obvious questions or complaining about things they don’t understand.

Hawkeye
I do understand I've watched the videos it doesn't make sense to me. I think there's been some great moves lately but I'm not going to say everything makes sense when it doesn't. Go back and look at my posts about the dwr I have been ultra supportive. Doesn't mean I'm not going to call stuff out when it doesn't make sense.
 
How good is dwr process of classifying deer numbers? If that is what we are concerned about let’s talk about deer numbers in all southern units. How many are seeing more deer now than they did 10, 15, 20 years ago. Not me, not even close.
That's a great point! Their numbers sure don't make sense sometimes. Makes me wonder how much guess work is really going on!
 
I know on the Beaver the numbers are not even close. I am sure on the pine valley the same. How can we fix the guess work that goes into the number of deer on a unit?
 
I know on the Beaver the numbers are not even close. I am sure on the pine valley the same. How can we fix the guess work that goes into the number of deer on a unit?
That's a good question. Maybe manage slightly more conservative. I think Utah manages for a very low buck to doe ratio compared to other states. Maybe increase it slightly, say even 20-22 bucks per 100 does. Also, perhaps after taking population estimates go of the absolute lower end (maybe they do this, I don't know?). Those may not be the answers, but could maybe help.
 
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I would bet dedicated hunters and other of us that are passionate about a unit would certainly go out into the field a help with counts. I bet an accurate number would just scare us all, but not surprise any of us.
 
SHG, I did not mean any offense by my prior post, I just felt like this issue was specifically addressed by the DWR in the video. If you look at the historic tag levels on the Pine Valley unit from 2019-2021, the DWR issued on average roughly 4500 tags. In 2022, the DWR cut tags by almost 60% to 1890. When you consider the proposal to increase tags this year in a vacuum, it may seem like an huge increase but the reality is the proposed increase is still 2000 tags less than historic numbers. That historical context provided by the DWR video is critical to understanding their proposed tag increase this year. Perhaps the massive decrease in tags last year was a bit of an overreaction? Just my two cents.

Hawkeye
 
SHG, I did not mean any offense by my prior post, I just felt like this issue was specifically addressed by the DWR in the video. If you look at the historic tag levels on the Pine Valley unit from 2019-2021, the DWR issued on average roughly 4500 tags. In 2022, the DWR cut tags by almost 60% to 1890. When you consider the proposal to increase tags this year in a vacuum, it may seem like an huge increase but the reality is the proposed increase is still 2000 tags less than historic numbers. That historical context provided by the DWR video is critical to understanding their proposed tag increase this year. Perhaps the massive decrease in tags last year was a bit of an overreaction? Just my two cents.

Hawkeye
Got it, in an early post on another thread I mentioned it was way down from the near 5000 they use to give out. The problem is they have preached the 3 year average, which is 18.9, so why increase so much if your are right on objective? I know they said we can't stock pile bucks, which I agree with to some extent. However, how is it stock piling bucks if we are not even at the mid point on the objective? I have no problem with 2800 tags, but maybe slow down a bit. Obviously the unit could not handle the 4500 tags. There is not even close to 4500 bucks on the unit?.
 
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Also, everything they said made sense to you and matches up and is consistent huh?
I've never set foot in the unit so I can't say one way or the other, most people haven't watched the videos so good job to you for at least doing that. Have you also watched the dwr work session video with the board from yesterday? I believe they went into more discussion about it there. I've watched so many videos lately its hard to keep track of everything lol.

So my understanding was the southern units are having historically high fawn survival this year, way better than expected. Their understanding is the cuts worked and stopped the bleeding and brought the buck : doe ratio back up to where it needed to be. That combined with the large number of yearlings that will be out there is the reason they bumped the tags back up.

Is it right???? I couldn't tell you.

But I suggest watching the work session video as well as I believe he went into more detail about the increase down there.
 
I've never set foot in the unit so I can't say one way or the other, most people haven't watched the videos so good job to you for at least doing that. Have you also watched the dwr work session video with the board from yesterday? I believe they went into more discussion about it there. I've watched so many videos lately its hard to keep track of everything lol.

So my understanding was the southern units are having historically high fawn survival this year, way better than expected. Their understanding is the cuts worked and stopped the bleeding and brought the buck : doe ratio back up to where it needed to be. That combined with the large number of yearlings that will be out there is the reason they bumped the tags back up.

Is it right???? I couldn't tell you.

But I suggest watching the work session video as well as I believe he went into more detail about the increase down there.
I'll try and find the videos. I think it was a premature move to bump the tags so quick and by so many. I guess we will see.
 
Listen to epic Outdoors podcast #274. I do not understand the proposals for some of the units in utah. Primarily Pine valley. It was way over hunted for years and then they cut numbers, then there is a slight up tick and they increase tags by 65%!!!!!!! Are you kidding? The unit is managed for 18-20 bucks. They go off the 3 year average which is 18.9, not even quite to the middle of the objective. LAST YEAR it ticked up slightly to 19.4, (what happened to the 3 year plan?) so they jump tags like crazy??!!! There are other units where they did things that don't make sense as well. They are very quick to increase tags but super slow to cut tags. They don't cut them until it's below objective but they raise them like crazy when it is at objective? What a shame!!!!! Listen to the podcast.
Whenever tags are decreased in a unit those tags need to be added to another unit. It's all about the budget. Pine Valley tags should not be increased.
 
I've never set foot in the unit so I can't say one way or the other, most people haven't watched the videos so good job to you for at least doing that. Have you also watched the dwr work session video with the board from yesterday? I believe they went into more discussion about it there. I've watched so many videos lately its hard to keep track of everything lol.

So my understanding was the southern units are having historically high fawn survival this year, way better than expected. Their understanding is the cuts worked and stopped the bleeding and brought the buck : doe ratio back up to where it needed to be. That combined with the large number of yearlings that will be out there is the reason they bumped the tags back up.

Is it right???? I couldn't tell you.

But I suggest watching the work session video as well as I believe he went into more detail about the increase down there.
In my area I have never seen such a number of fawns at any time in any area as I did last year. They are still around and looking healthy but they also have easy access to feed during the winter as well.
 
Whenever tags are decreased in a unit those tags need to be added to another unit. It's all about the budget. Pine Valley tags should not be increased.

This is always the weakest of complaints.

Of course there is a budget. In the same post where guys ***** about counting, they take shots at "budget" People, trucks and planes cost $$

Like as if the 40% increase in fuel, and 20% increase in vehicles, and 7%(not a chance) in everything else isn't felt by the DWR same as any other buisness or home.

I never heard dudes who take that shot, make presentation to RAC calling for 40% increase in tag prices. Or for tying tag prices to the rate of inflation.

Yes. Their job is to manage herds. To do so they have to support themselves with tag sales.

As to your 10,15 year criticisms. Maybe true. But have you seen the explosive growth of people in southern Utah in the same timeframe?
 
This is always the weakest of complaints.

Of course there is a budget. In the same post where guys ***** about counting, they take shots at "budget" People, trucks and planes cost $$

Like as if the 40% increase in fuel, and 20% increase in vehicles, and 7%(not a chance) in everything else isn't felt by the DWR same as any other buisness or home.

I never heard dudes who take that shot, make presentation to RAC calling for 40% increase in tag prices. Or for tying tag prices to the rate of inflation.

Yes. Their job is to manage herds. To do so they have to support themselves with tag sales.

As to your 10,15 year criticisms. Maybe true. But have you seen the explosive growth of people in southern Utah in the same timeframe?
Why not increase tags prices by $10 to $20 bucks, instead of over hunting units to make money? I think most if not all hunters would be willing to do that.
 
I'll try and find the videos. I think it was a premature move to bump the tags so quick and by so many. I guess we will see.

Here it is if you want to watch it. Is the DWR perfect? Not a chance but they are really making a concerted effort to make decisions and recommendations based on actual data (collars, migration studies, fatality studies, herd counts, etc.). Anyone who watches these videos should find some comfort in that.

I also really like Dax Mangus and Covy Jones - two guys who are hunters by the way and get it. They care deeply and do a good job explaining the DWR's approach and conundrums they face every day in managing a finite resource while balancing biology and sociology (no easy task).
 

Here it is if you want to watch it. Is the DWR perfect? Not a chance but they are really making a concerted effort to make decisions and recommendations based on actual data (collars, migration studies, fatality studies, herd counts, etc.). Anyone who watches these videos should find some comfort in that.

I also really like Dax Mangus and Covy Jones - two guys who are hunters by the way and get it. They care deeply and do a good job explaining the DWR's approach and conundrums they face every day in managing a finite resource while balancing biology and sociology (no easy task).
I agree with all you said, thanks for the link!
 
I believe Pine Valley needs to be 22/100 then you’ll start seeing more mid class bucks not these young bucks that take up most of the harvest. I wish they could’ve waited one more year before they increase the deer tags. I’m not suggesting this unit be managed like the Henry’s but the Pine Valley has so much potential. I’ve seen the video and lot of it makes sense but not all units are created equal.
 
Quest, I would like to see more mature on certain units too but we have to remember that Pine Valley is a general unit. It is not a Premium LE or even a LE unit. The DWR managing that unit for 18-20 bucks per 100 does. That ratio is already higher than several other general units, which manage for a 15-17 buck to doe ratio, such as Wasatch West. One of the main concerns with the state moving to micro-units was the fear that all of the general units would effectively become LE units. If sportsmen want to see more mature bucks or higher buck to doe ratios then they should probably apply for a LE unit or get involved and push for changes in the Mule Deer Management Plan. As it currently stands, the DWR us following that plan.

Hawkeye
 
Leave general unit alone, they are intended to try to preserve opportunities. If you want higher buck to doe ratio and less competition then put in for the premium and LE units. Every unit in the state could produce bigger and better but it would come at a cost. The cost is not worth the lose of opportunities to me. I feel the Utah DWR generally has a good balance and I would encourage them to continue their efforts in the models they are using. That does not mean I praise everything they are doing but they are doing a good job with the things under their control. Just my thoughts.
 
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Leave general unit alone, they are intended to try to preserve opportunities. If you want higher buck to doe ratio and less competition then put in for the premium and LE units. Every unit in the state could produce bigger and better but it would come at a cost. The cost is not worth the lose of opportunities to me. I feel the Utah DWR generally has a good balance and I would encourage them to continue their efforts in the models they are using. That does not mean I praise everything they are doing but they are doing a good job with the things under their control. Just my thoughts.
Agree for the most part. Although I wouldn't mind slightly more conservative numbers. Say 22 bucks per 100 does or even if it is going to be 18-20, shoot for 20 not barely over 18. Knock the LEs and premium LE's down a little bit. For crying out loud, Utah's got the biggest Gap from general to limited entry in the west as far as quality goes. Keep the LE's around 30 bucks per hundred does. Just my opinion.
 
I know everyone has their own idea of what they want in a hunt/trophy but there’s a group of middle class bucks that are missing in Pine Valley. That unit had a bad fawn survival rate couple years ago. Sometimes I wonder if they increased tag in the southern units because they had to cut tag up north to make up that money lost?
 
I know everyone has their own idea of what they want in a hunt/trophy but there’s a group of middle class bucks that are missing in Pine Valley. That unit had a bad fawn survival rate couple years ago. Sometimes I wonder if they increased tag in the southern units because they had to cut tag up north to make up that money lost?
It sure seems like that.
 
That’s exactly what Nevada did last year. They cut Buck tags in some of the eastern units and dumped them into some northern units. Problem was the hunting in the northern units was hurting also.
Nevada started their problems with all the new buy and apply strategy to recruit as many new applicants as possible.
Now they have to feed that monster they’ve created.
Seems like Utah is doing the same thing.
 
That’s exactly what Nevada did last year. They cut Buck tags in some of the eastern units and dumped them into some northern units. Problem was the hunting in the northern units was hurting also.
Nevada started their problems with all the new buy and apply strategy to recruit as many new applicants as possible.
Now they have to feed that monster they’ve created.
Seems like Utah is doing the same thing.
How hard is it to increase tags by 10 bucks if you're hurting that bad for money, for crying out loud!
 
Not exactly the definition of greed
I agree, but they do need money to function. So if they're that hard up for money (and really aren't cutting sufficient tags because they need money to operate) than increase the price of tags by 10 bucks, instead of decimate the deer herds.
 
I agree, but they do need money to function. So if they're that hard up for money (and really aren't cutting sufficient tags because they need money to operate) than increase the price of tags by 10 bucks, instead of decimate the deer herds.


The herds are not being decimated by hunters. That is simply and objectively false statement. It isn’t even close to happening, but that has been explained over and over again.

I said it was sad people have convinced themselves the DWR biologists are making recommendations for money, but I’ll raise that to an it’s absolutely embarrassing we have hunters still pimping that completely false narrative.

Unbelievable, really. Truly unbelievable.
 
The herds are not being decimated by hunters. That is simply and objectively false statement. It isn’t even close to happening, but that has been explained over and over again.

I said it was sad people have convinced themselves the DWR biologists are making recommendations for money, but I’ll raise that to an it’s absolutely embarrassing we have hunters still pimping that completely false narrative.

Unbelievable, really. Truly unbelievable.
Notice what I put in parentheses? I honestly don't know if that's why they won't cut tags. However, it seems like part of the reason of not cutting tags is to keep the "business" running. You think all the tag proposals they had made sense? Why if you were right in the middle of objective on a unit, do you raise tags by 65%? That doesn't make sense to me, does it to you?
 
Because bucks don’t have fawns. Not even in 2023.
But you see, their 3 year plan was to keep the numbers pretty close if they're at the buck to doe ratio, they're not even at the midway point of being at buck and doe objective and they're raising the tags by 65% (pine valley)!

Why on Earth are they doing that, that is my question? That doesn't follow their own plan that they made. Not to mention they had a good year of fawn recruitment so they jump tags by 65%. Good heck, are we just going to slaughter all the spikes and two points as soon as we finally have a good recruitment? Give them a chance to grow a bit! The bigger and stronger they get the more likely they are to survive drought, harsh winters, etc. It's okay for some deer to live to be old and die without a hunter shooting them, what is the problem with that? Their own words were enjoy the resource while you have it. Instead, maybe try building on it a little bit? 18 bucks per 100 does is not great, 15 is pathetic. In region G and H in Wyoming where it is over the counter for residents and the winters are terrible, and their is also wolves and grizzlies, they have a buck to doe ratio of 30 to 100. It's actually a little higher than that right now. Why do you think Founder never hunts Utah with his lifetime license and always goes to Wyoming? I'm not saying let's make everything the Pauns or Henries, but goodness, maybe 22 bucks per 100 does? At least shoot for 20 on these 18-20 units, instead of jumping tags by 65% when they're at 18.9, it is complete nonsense.
 
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SHG, you’ve already acknowledged the giant ebb and flow of the Pine Valley tag allotment, and you already know how much lower this recommendation is than what was the recent numbers. So it seems you’re purposefully trying to be misleading now with all that “65% raise” stuff. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but this is no longer an intellectually honest conversation. It is still nearly 50% below what it was just a few years ago. 50% of the tags gone and you want them cut even more. (See what we can do with statistics?)

I had a Pine Valley tag in 2021. I saw one of the largest deer I’ve seen on the hoof in my entire life. It was only for about 4-5 seconds, and he went “poof,” never to be seen again. I don’t profess to know the unit well at all. In fact, I readily admit I don’t, but that deer was a legitimate giant regardless of unit. I’ve got to think he wasn’t the last buck left on the unit older than 2 years old. He was standing with a 2-point we had seen originally and sat and watched for a few minutes just for fun. I wish the big buck would have been as cooperative, but the big ones tend to be a little harder to find and keep tabs on.

Why do you think Founder never hunts Utah with his lifetime license and always goes to Wyoming?

Because he keeps finding people that will share their points with him so he can draw very hard to draw tags that usually take people a long time to build up the points to draw?
 
SHG, you’ve already acknowledged the giant ebb and flow of the Pine Valley tag allotment, and you already know how much lower this recommendation is than what was the recent numbers. So it seems you’re purposefully trying to be misleading now with all that “65% raise” stuff. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but this is no longer an intellectually honest conversation. It is still nearly 50% below what it was just a few years ago. 50% of the tags gone and you want them cut even more. (See what we can do with statistics?)

I had a Pine Valley tag in 2021. I saw one of the largest deer I’ve seen on the hoof in my entire life. It was only for about 4-5 seconds, and he went “poof,” never to be seen again. I don’t profess to know the unit well at all. In fact, I readily admit I don’t, but that deer was a legitimate giant regardless of unit. I’ve got to think he wasn’t the last buck left on the unit older than 2 years old. He was standing with a 2-point we had seen originally and sat and watched for a few minutes just for fun. I wish the big buck would have been as cooperative, but the big ones tend to be a little harder to find and keep tabs on.



Because he keeps finding people that will share their points with him so he can draw very hard to draw tags that usually take people a long time to build up the points to draw?

Because he keeps finding people that will share their points with him so he can draw very hard to draw tags that usually take people a long time to build up the points to draw?

And He Wants A Chance At a NON-PISSCUTTER Type of Buck!

Do You See Him Posting DINKS?

No,You Do F'N NOT!
 
The point is not cutting more tags but when your not even at objective why raise them until you see what one more year does. Common sense seems to be thrown out she window. I get that shooting less bucks is not the best way to grow a deer herd, but increasing tags is not the best way to reach a buck/doe ratio if your below objective,
 
Because he keeps finding people that will share their points with him so he can draw very hard to draw tags that usually take people a long time to build up the points to draw?

And He Wants A Chance At a NON-PISSCUTTER Type of Buck!

Do You See Him Posting DINKS?

No,You Do F'N NOT!


Comparing apples to oranges.
 
SHG, you’ve already acknowledged the giant ebb and flow of the Pine Valley tag allotment, and you already know how much lower this recommendation is than what was the recent numbers. So it seems you’re purposefully trying to be misleading now with all that “65% raise” stuff. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but this is no longer an intellectually honest conversation. It is still nearly 50% below what it was just a few years ago. 50% of the tags gone and you want them cut even more. (See what we can do with statistics?)

I had a Pine Valley tag in 2021. I saw one of the largest deer I’ve seen on the hoof in my entire life. It was only for about 4-5 seconds, and he went “poof,” never to be seen again. I don’t profess to know the unit well at all. In fact, I readily admit I don’t, but that deer was a legitimate giant regardless of unit. I’ve got to think he wasn’t the last buck left on the unit older than 2 years old. He was standing with a 2-point we had seen originally and sat and watched for a few minutes just for fun. I wish the big buck would have been as cooperative, but the big ones tend to be a little harder to find and keep tabs on.



Because he keeps finding people that will share their points with him so he can draw very hard to draw tags that usually take people a long time to build up the points to draw?
We are both using the statistics to benefit our own argument. Looks like we agree to disagree. You want less bucks and smaller bucks for increased opportunity. I want slightly and I mean SLIGHTLY more conservative numbers in order to have a few more bucks and a few more mature bucks. Good luck in the draws and the upcoming season.
 
We are both using the statistics to benefit our own argument. Looks like we agree to disagree. You want less bucks and smaller bucks for increased opportunity. I want slightly and I mean SLIGHTLY more conservative numbers in order to have a few more bucks and a few more mature bucks. Good luck in the draws and the upcoming season.
This “argument” perfectly displays the conundrum that biologists/DWR face. Pine Valley is a general deer unit, not LE. Some guys like SHG want more mature bucks and others just want a 2 point for the freezer or the experience.

The DWR has to balance biology while also addressing the sociology of constituents who have diametrically opposed views, all while being slammed with variables out of their control (drought, tough winters, etc.). Talk about a thankless impossible job!!
 
I don’t know about cutting but maybe keep the tags where they were 2022 give it one more year than see where we’re at?
 
You do know the classifications are done post season right?
From the mule deer plan....

"Population sex and age composition for mule deer is determined through the use of postseason ground classification counts. On each unit, annual ground classification counts are conducted shortly after the general-season hunts (typically between November 15 and January 15) when mule deer are concentrated on winter range and bucks are in peak rut. Data are collected on representative areas throughout each unit and biologists attempt to classify a minimum of 400 does on each unit. Classification data are used to determine annual production and survival of young to 6-months old (fawn-to-doe ratios), to assess if herds are meeting their buck-to-doe objectives, and as input data for population models."
 
Yes I get that but they are still considering tag numbers by winter kill numbers etc. You do know final recommendations will not be given to wildlife board until end of April?
 
Yes I'm aware of when the decision will be made.

The recommendations have already been made with the caveat that the may change prior to the WB meeting. If you have hard information to sway the decision to follow the plan you will have the chance to present it.
 
Just because this is a crap shoot for you or for me does not mean it is a crap shoot for those making the recommendations.

I really mean no disrespect by this comment, but I trust trained and experienced biologists making decisions based upon data over any uneducated outcry from the general public. We all are just guessing, but that doesn’t mean everyone is.

I realize this has become about the Pine Valley, but I’ll take it state wide. If our deer herd really has taken the beating some have suggested, particularly in some areas, do you want emotional and VERY limited observations guiding the rebuild? Or biology and data?

We’ll find out shortly which side of this the Wildlife Board is on. Follow the professionals or the internet biologists. It’s an easy one for me.
 
These are questions I’d like to know about the Pine Valley unit? What was the fawn survival rate and was their twins born 2023? What is the buck/doe ratio In 2022? What was the average age of bucks harvested in 2022? How many deer can the Pine Valley unit carry and where are we at caring capacity now 2023? I’m sure they’ll cover this when they have their meeting it would be nice to have this information before hand to go over to chew on.
 
Oh I’d like to know what was the success ratio for bucks for each hunt average then broken down by year? I don’t know if they keep track of that?
 
Guys with the "Its all about the money or greed" stance on the DWR's recommendations really should watch this video of the Central Region RAC meeting from last week, starting at about the 47 minute mark:
 
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