Vaccine Side effect update

[Utahlefty]

In "normal" times, the scientists will have worked all of this out prior to presenting to the public but in covid times we're seeing the process happen in real time. It can certainly be confusing to try to sort through the daily noise but I guess that's the drawback of doing science on live TV, as it were.

One thing I keep seeing on the internets is the trepidation of the "new" mRna vaccine technology used in the Moderna & Pfizer vaccines. This isn't actually new at all - this technology is at least 15 years old. The Ebloa and MERS vaccines are mRna vaccines developed a decade ago. A big part of the appeal of mRna vaccines is their plug-n-play nature once they've worked the kinks out (which they've already done prior to covid showing up). This is why these companies were able to make a COVID vaccine so quickly.

It's true though that mRna vaccines have not been used on this scale before and so far (approx 200million doses) side effects have been minimal.

Not so for the other vaccines though. All five of the Adenovirus-vectored vaccines have reported blood clots in women 18-49. These are : Johnson & Johnson, AstraZenica, the Russian Sputnik V, and three of the Chinese-made vaccines.
This was, of course, the big news this week - the suspension of the J&J vaccine by the CDC. This was expected to be temporary but they've asked for more time to sort that out. Bummer but it's not as simple as vaccine=blood clots.

A few numbers:
average annual rate of blood clots in this cohort: 1:1000
rate of blood clots in J&J vaccinates in this cohort: 1:1,000,000
rate of blood clots in covid patients in this cohort: 1:12
rate of Vaccine induced thrombocytopenia : 1:30,000


It could be quite true that the Adenovirus-vectored vaccines increase the risks of blood clots in some people but that risk would be orders of magnitude less the risk if infected with covid and probably less as a specific trigger than even the normal background risk in this group.

Hence, it's taking the Brainiacs a bit longer to do the maths on this but I fear the damage has already been done from a public perception standpoint.

In the U.S. the possibility exists to hold out for the mRna vaccines as we've ordered enough doses to vaccinate everyone with them by July.

In the larger world this is a problem as less than 60% of the population lives in an area that can accommodate the storage and handling requirements of the mRna products - they'll have to depend on the Adenovirus-vectored vaccines and so it's good to see the transparency happening.

Early reports would indicate they're zeroing in on vaccine-induced thrombolic thrombocytopenia as the origin of the blood clots in these individuals. This makes some sense as the majority of these cases I've treated were vaccine induced -- not any particular vaccine, just "A" vaccine. (thrombocyte is a fancy word for platelet, more on the mechanism of this later if there's interest)

 

[Bluehair]

That’s just what I was going to say.

Seriously, did I see something somewhere that explained in outdoorsman‘s terms that COVID causes more clots than the vaccine?

 

[Utahlefty]

That’s just what I was going to say.

Seriously, did I see something somewhere that explained in outdoorsman‘s terms that COVID causes more clots than the vaccine?

Yes, blood clots in conjunction with COVID infections are very common (1 in 12 in some populations and 1: 30 overall compared to what looks like 1 in a million with the Adenovirus vaccines).

Blood clots in general are very common (1:1000 annually in the US) and those that are predisposed just need a trigger to flush it out -- often an infection or vaccine but medications can do it, smoking can, etc.

 

[yoteduster]

That's all very interesting.. But what I want to know is what are the side effects of these chemicals in our bodies going to be four or five years down the road..does anybody know or does anybody really care at this point...

 

[grizzly]

That's all very interesting.. But what I want to know is what are the side effects of these chemicals in our bodies going to be four or five years down the road..does anybody know or does anybody really care at this point...

I'm a lot more worried about my friends that have died from Rona, my other friend that spent 20 days on a ventilator (he's in his 30's with no medical history), or my employee in his 20's who went to the gym at 4am every morning before getting Rona over Thanksgiving from his wife, who's a teacher and got it from school, and now needs to rest going up one flight of stairs at our office.

There have been hundreds of millions of vaccine guinea pigs to look at, and I have no first-hand accounts of side-effects even remotely nearing the degree of the disease. Certainly the numbers are in the vaccine's favor, IMO.

As to the mRNA ingredients, the primary instigator is out of your system in about 72 hours as it can't replicate and the other portions of the solution are not new to medicine.

I'll not try and convince anybody what's best for them, but that is why I chose the vaccine.

 

[Gator]

I wonder about the side effect it will have on the people, If they don't have the shot and the virus keep changing in the people who don't get the shot I guess no one know what the future holds. It's a best guess that all of us will have and then take the best guess that we are headed in the right direction.
50/50 deal anyway we look at it.

 

[Utahlefty]

That's all very interesting.. But what I want to know is what are the side effects of these chemicals in our bodies going to be four or five years down the road..does anybody know or does anybody really care at this point...

Ingredient list for EUA vaccines

It terms of chemicals, there's nothing in the vaccines that's going to stick around for more than 72 hours. They're really pretty simple with a few lipids (as protectants) a few salts and a few sugars. This stuff is not all that "foreign" and is rapidly broken down.

For the mRna vaccines nothing enters the nucleus of the cell (where your own DNA is) but just makes proteins (the spike protein) on your ribosomes in the cytoplasm of the cell. Even this is transient and the mRna is broken down quickly.

The Adenovirus vectored vaccines enter cells but do not integrate in the host DNA.

Your real risk is in short term immune overreaction not long term side effects as there isn't anything that sticks around -- unlike many medications that can be stored in your fat, etc.

 

[easy_money]

Now I won't get that obnoxious reminder to change my avatar.
Thx feddoc

 

[idahomuleyhunter]

Anyone who claims in any scientific or mathematical endeavor to be providing a "free lunch" should be viewed with skepticism. There's no such thing. I tend to believe there is likely little to no risk with the mRNA vaccines, because I doubt they do much of anything.

Last summer people smarter than me were questioning the voracity of the sample populations, as deaths in the placebo groups were non existent. Which calls into question the randomness of the subjects, and or, their propensity to become exposed to the virus. I.e. the test subjects may have been healthier than the population as a whole or better social distancers, or both.

Lo and behold this week we get 5800 confirmed infections after vaccination with 78 deaths. A death rate of 1.3%, coincidentally close to the death rates from the virus in the population. And a long way from the 7/8 you would have expected given the claims of 90-95 efficacy against death, in comparison to the natural virus. It's early maybe those numbers will right themselves, maybe not. I suspect "variants" will garner the blame and we'll all be cutting 2 checks a year to Pfizer in perpetuity.

 

[EVILNR]

I'm good.

 

[grosventrehunter]

That's all very interesting.. But what I want to know is what are the side effects of these chemicals in our bodies going to be four or five years down the road..does anybody know or does anybody really care at this point...

Hhmmm, Chemicals in the body. So are you saying you don't chew, smoke, drink energy drinks/sodas, fast foods, etc. I bet you're going to tell us you only eat non-proccesed foods/drinks too.

Again, I always laugh when I hear people telling me how the vaccine is going to kill you while holding an energy drink and smoking a cigarette.

 

[DW]

That's all very interesting.. But what I want to know is what are the side effects of these chemicals in our bodies going to be four or five years down the road..does anybody know or does anybody really care at this point...

It's the question I keep asking, that no one can answer. I'll roll the dice with the virus with a 99.999% survivability rate. Wish me luck!

 

[eelgrass]

It's the question I keep asking, that no one can answer. I'll roll the dice with the virus with a 99.999% survivability rate. Wish me luck!

I think it's the people who take the vaccine who need the luck. We'll see. Edit: myself included.

 

[Utah400Elk]

True life vaccine side effect...

I am a cancer survivor, sounds more dramatic to say it that way but it is true. I went for my final DR appointment with my oncologist 6 weeks ago. She congratulated me and said I was now cancer free and that would be my last appointment...fast forward two days and she calls back. My blood work showed that my cancer was back. She scheduled me for PET scan for yesterday and radiation to start one week from Monday.

I had an appointment on Thursday before all the treatments started and my blood had returned to normal. All my treatments are on hold and everything is on pause. The DR believes the vaccine messed with my buddy a lot and messed up the assay for the cancer screening. I am now back on continual monitoring like I started just after my surgery. I will be going to the oncologist every month for the next two years.

I am glad I got the vaccine and glad I am healthy but my last 6 weeks have been hell and I think the vaccine played a huge role. I know this in not a scientific method to show real action ship but something really caused my body to go haywire and the only thing I have done different in the 8 years since my surgery was the vaccine. My blood has always been clear until I got the COVID vaccine. Prayers for everybody.

 

[grizzly]

I tend to believe there is likely little to no risk with the mRNA vaccines, because I doubt they do much of anything.

 

[mdbrown]

Got moderna
First shot had sore arm for a couple of days

second shot, 17 hours after woke up freezing, could feel every hair in legs and arms , terrible muscle aches, sick to stomach
Them was totally hot.
that all lasted about 4 hours. Absolutely miserable

my thought is, if having the real virus is anywhere near as rough as that 4 hours
I don’t want any part of it. And I really feel sorry for anyone that has to go through it.

 

[Bluehair]

It's the question I keep asking, that no one can answer. I'll roll the dice with the virus with a 99.999% survivability rate. Wish me luck!

DW, you need to get on board with this. You’ll be kicking yourself when you miss out on the class action lawsuit.

 

[eelgrass]

DW, you need to get on board with this. You’ll be kicking yourself when you miss out on the class action lawsuit.

Exactly! DW will miss out on the free vaccine vaccine.

 

[roadrunner]

DW, you need to get on board with this. You’ll be kicking yourself when you miss out on the class action lawsuit.

You mean to make filthy rich lawyers more filthy rich?

Wonder what a plaintiff would do with their $155 portion of the settlement...?

 

[idahomuleyhunter]

You guys missed the part where vaccine producers are indemnified. But it's ok theres a federal relief fund. Capped at about 200k per person.

 

[DW]

 

[DW]

I see our true problem daily. For instance, I'm eating lunch currently in a place called Honolulu Poke Bar, sorta cafeteria sushi if you will. I walk in and go directly to the head, partly to piss, but mainly to wash up. When I come out there's 3 gals in line that weren't there when I came in. Didn't hear any of them go in the can right next to me. I've watched a dozen others do the same since I've been here. Get their food, then play at the fountain/plastic ware/ condiment station with their unwashed dickbeaters. If we ever have a severe pandemic, 50% of us will be dead before we knew what hit us due to our personal hygiene.

 

[roadrunner]

I see our true problem daily. For instance, I'm eating lunch currently in a place called Honolulu Poke Bar, sorta cafeteria sushi if you will. I walk in and go directly to the head, partly to piss, but mainly to wash up. When I come out there's 3 gals in line that weren't there when I came in. Didn't hear any of them go in the can right next to me. I've watched a dozen others do the same since I've been here. Get their food, then play at the fountain/plastic ware/ condiment station with their unwashed dickbeaters. If we ever have a severe pandemic, 50% of us will be dead before we knew what hit us due to our personal hygiene.

Now you know why so many died during the Black Death in the 17th century.

 

[whiteantlertip]

I never thought the comment “I wouldn’t touch them with a six-foot pole” would become a national policy, but here we are , go figure ??

 

[eelgrass]

You guys missed the part where vaccine producers are indemnified. But it's ok theres a federal relief fund. Capped at about 200k per person.

It's true, and one of the reasons Warren Buffett recommended years ago to invest in vaccines. They can't be held responsible.

Warren Buffett is going all in on the vaccine rally, piling into these stocks

Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway continued to liquidate its bank holdings in favor of big pharma, placing big bets on Merck, Pfizer, AbbVie and Bristol-Myers Squibb Co. in the past quarter.

fortune.com

 

[roadrunner]

It's true, and one of the reasons Warren Buffett recommended years ago to invest in vaccines. They can't be held responsible.

And yet, they want gun manufacturers to be...

 

[Roy]

In "normal" times, the scientists will have worked all of this out prior to presenting to the public but in covid times we're seeing the process happen in real time. It can certainly be confusing to try to sort through the daily noise but I guess that's the drawback of doing science on live TV, as it were.

One thing I keep seeing on the internets is the trepidation of the "new" mRna vaccine technology used in the Moderna & Pfizer vaccines. This isn't actually new at all - this technology is at least 15 years old. The Ebloa and MERS vaccines are mRna vaccines developed a decade ago. A big part of the appeal of mRna vaccines is their plug-n-play nature once they've worked the kinks out (which they've already done prior to covid showing up). This is why these companies were able to make a COVID vaccine so quickly.

It's true though that mRna vaccines have not been used on this scale before and so far (approx 200million doses) side effects have been minimal.

Not so for the other vaccines though. All five of the Adenovirus-vectored vaccines have reported blood clots in women 18-49. These are : Johnson & Johnson, AstraZenica, the Russian Sputnik V, and three of the Chinese-made vaccines.
This was, of course, the big news this week - the suspension of the J&J vaccine by the CDC. This was expected to be temporary but they've asked for more time to sort that out. Bummer but it's not as simple as vaccine=blood clots.

A few numbers:
average annual rate of blood clots in this cohort: 1:1000
rate of blood clots in J&J vaccinates in this cohort: 1:1,000,000
rate of blood clots in covid patients in this cohort: 1:12
rate of Vaccine induced thrombocytopenia : 1:30,000


It could be quite true that the Adenovirus-vectored vaccines increase the risks of blood clots in some people but that risk would be orders of magnitude less the risk if infected with covid and probably less as a specific trigger than even the normal background risk in this group.

Hence, it's taking the Brainiacs a bit longer to do the maths on this but I fear the damage has already been done from a public perception standpoint.

In the U.S. the possibility exists to hold out for the mRna vaccines as we've ordered enough doses to vaccinate everyone with them by July.

In the larger world this is a problem as less than 60% of the population lives in an area that can accommodate the storage and handling requirements of the mRna products - they'll have to depend on the Adenovirus-vectored vaccines and so it's good to see the transparency happening.

Early reports would indicate they're zeroing in on vaccine-induced thrombolic thrombocytopenia as the origin of the blood clots in these individuals. This makes some sense as the majority of these cases I've treated were vaccine induced -- not any particular vaccine, just "A" vaccine. (thrombocyte is a fancy word for platelet, more on the mechanism of this later if there's interest)

Thanks for this explanation Lefty - I got the J&J vaccine on Monday - the day before the CDC recommended the pause. I am not in the least bit worried about it since I don't fit into that risk category. As I was doing my research beforehand (talked with 2 different physicians - my general practitioner and my ENT, both actually commented this was common with Adenovirus-vectored vaccines but that we shouldn't be too concerned. The risk of clotting with COVID-19 is far greater that the risk of the vaccine.

 

[DW]

 

[Blank]

Well said!!

 

[garneroutlaw]

Any vets here? Some of those vaccines i got in the navy really jacked me up. One or a combination cause a vitiligo flare up and vasomotor rhinitis for years. Saw multiple specialists. It all cleared up a few years after I separated. Im not concerned about major side effects, its the minor side effects that could linger for years (and can't necessarily be attributed to the vaccine) that concern me. Come talk to me after you take the anthrax up the nose.

 

[feddoc]

Here is an interesting side effect: maybe it doesn't work so good.

Yale Epidemiologist: More than Half of New COVID Patients Have Been Vaccinated (VIDEO) | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hoft

Dr.

www.thegatewaypundit.com

 

[feddoc]

Any vets here? Some of those vaccines i got in the navy really jacked me up. One or a combination cause a vitiligo flare up and vasomotor rhinitis for years. Saw multiple specialists. It all cleared up a few years after I separated. Im not concerned about major side effects, its the minor side effects that could linger for years (and can't necessarily be attributed to the vaccine) that concern me. Come talk to me after you take the anthrax up the nose.

Yes, USN here and no anthrax for me.