Variable power scope question

oldmossback

oldmossback

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I have noticed this issue in the past and it is becoming more bothersome lately. My sons and myself all run Leupold VX3 scopes. 4/12 and 3/9. We usually keep them on 6 power for hunting and sighting in.
Here is the issue.. When shooting over 200 yards, We would like to use 9-12 power but have found that our accuracy goes away when doing so.
We have tried sighting in at 200 yards using 9 power and when we get that dialed in and then switch back to our normal 6 power, we are all over the place.
We are to the point of just leaving them at 6 power all the time. This same issue is on 3 separate guns all with relatively same scopes and mounts. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
 
I'm not meaning to be disrespectful but...... Start squeezing the trigger... or since you "run" a scope, I should say "trigger press".

If it's an issue on 3 different rifles with 3 different Leupold scopes, perhaps look inward for the answer!

What you're describing would be a nightmare even for a cheap scope and virtually unheard of for a Leupold but strange stuff could happen.

The chances of you each having a defective Leupold scope is so minuscule that it could hardly exist.

Find someone with a boresight tool and look at the screen through the scope while going up and down with the power and see if it moves... or place in a vice and look through the scope at a target and move power up and down and see if impact would change at various powers.

It could be that the 3 rifles don't shoot worth a crap so even the best scope in the world won't make them shoot well.

There are just so many things that it COULD be that there's hardly a place to start.

I really hope someone steps up with a logical answer for you but we shall see.

Zeke

PS: Where are you located as I'm willing to check them out for/with you!

Zeke
 
I probably have 30 rifles with Leupold scopes and have never had this issue so I'm really not sure about any advice and I can imagine how frustrating that would be.

I think Zeke has some great advice to get the guns in a vice, center the crosshairs on a target, and adjust the power to make sure the center crosshairs don't move. Remember that in a second focal plane scope, everything else will move in relation to the reticle as it will not subtend with power adjustment but the center crosshairs should remain on point no matter what the power.

What kind of groups/consistency are you getting when you don't adjust the power? ----SS
 
oldmassback, the offer stands that I'll try to help if you're close enough.

There are so many variable at play here that the internet isn't really going to help. Best thing to do is eliminate each possible issue so start with the scopes and get them checked out by someone competent. If not me, get someone who is immersed in the shooting/hunting sports to help with this.

Please don't be too off-put by my blunt yet honest post.:cool:
NO, I'm not looking for work! I'm just making an offer to help since you're at a loss as to what needs done.

Zeke
 
To me it sounds like the only reasonable explanation would be target panic or a parallax problem. With a 2nd focal plane scope the crosshairs are not changing at all, only the magnification.
 
Agree with Marley parallax or maybe your eyepiece is not focused right. Common error...I'd guess half of regular guys that don't shoot distance don't have their eyepiece focused correctly and that combined with no parallax adjustment and a non perfect trigger squeeze will open up groups for sure.
 
You could also send the scopes to leupold and have them check them out.
The last leupold I owned was a VX5 and had tracking/return to zero issues. The list of things leupold fixed was long. Promptly sold it upon getting the replacement.
 
I’m not a Leupold fan, but what you are explaining sounds nearly impossible to happen to all 3. Whatever you are doing, you are doing wrong.
 
Zeke said:
I'm not meaning to be disrespectful but...... Start squeezing the trigger... or since you "run" a scope, I should say "trigger press".

If it's an issue on 3 different rifles with 3 different Leupold scopes, perhaps look inward for the answer!

What you're describing would be a nightmare even for a cheap scope and virtually unheard of for a Leupold but strange stuff could happen.

The chances of you each having a defective Leupold scope is so minuscule that it could hardly exist.

Find someone with a boresight tool and look at the screen through the scope while going up and down with the power and see if it moves... or place in a vice and look through the scope at a target and move power up and down and see if impact would change at various powers.

It could be that the 3 rifles don't shoot worth a crap so even the best scope in the world won't make them shoot well.

There are just so many things that it COULD be that there's hardly a place to start.

I really hope someone steps up with a logical answer for you but we shall see.

Zeke

PS: Where are you located as I'm willing to check them out for/with you!

Zeke
Click to expand...
I have a bore sight tool.
All 3 rifles are Tikka T3x superlites
I doubt all 3 shooters are "pressing the trigger"
 
Sparks Shooter said:
I probably have 30 rifles with Leupold scopes and have never had this issue so I'm really not sure about any advice and I can imagine how frustrating that would be.

I think Zeke has some great advice to get the guns in a vice, center the crosshairs on a target, and adjust the power to make sure the center crosshairs don't move. Remember that in a second focal plane scope, everything else will move in relation to the reticle as it will not subtend with power adjustment but the center crosshairs should remain on point no matter what the power.

What kind of groups/consistency are you getting when you don't adjust the power? ----SS
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply.
at 200 yds without touching anything we aren't getting any groups. one 6" high left, the next 4" right and low etc etc.

roll it back to 6 power and bam 1" high at 200yd with 2" groups
 
30Hart said:
Agree with Marley parallax or maybe your eyepiece is not focused right. Common error...I'd guess half of regular guys that don't shoot distance don't have their eyepiece focused correctly and that combined with no parallax adjustment and a non perfect trigger squeeze will open up groups for sure.
Click to expand...
Those are good ideas but why would we get good consistent groups when we roll it back to 6 power? Even at longer distance
 
oldmossback said:
Thanks for the reply.
at 200 yds without touching anything we aren't getting any groups. one 6" high left, the next 4" right and low etc etc.

roll it back to 6 power and bam 1" high at 200yd with 2" groups
Click to expand...
The weirdest thing about this is that I could understand if the zero changed with power but the fact that you go from good groups to all-over-the-place just by changing power has me befuddled. Others have mentioned Parallax problems and this could cause some variance if it is out of adjustment and the shooter does not align their eye the same each shot but, at 200 yards, the error factor would likely not be what you are describing.------SS
 
I'm certain this is not it- but I'll share a rookie mistake I made with a Leopold VXiii scope on my son's rifle. The eyepiece itself rotates for focus, and there is a locking ring to secure it. On one hunt, we found wildly changing shots, and I later found that the locking ring was not set against the eyepiece. Securing that fixed the issue. It's worth noting that the eyepiece had screwed way out and was "wobbling" almost. Son did not complain about focus issues, so it wasn't until I inspected the scope that I figured it out.

It would not explain your circumstance though- but figured I'd share just in case.
 
You could eliminate potential shooter error with a lead sled. Glad to lend you mine if you are reasonably close. I use a VX3 4.5-14 on my main hunting rifle and haven't experienced this problem.

Just brainstorming- Do you happen to be using the B&C reticle? If so, the main crosshair will be the only one that remains true at all power settings since you have 2nd focal plane in those scopes.
 
DaveD said:
You could eliminate potential shooter error with a lead sled. Glad to lend you mine if you are reasonably close. I use a VX3 4.5-14 on my main hunting rifle and haven't experienced this problem.

Just brainstorming- Do you happen to be using the B&C reticle? If so, the main crosshair will be the only one that remains true at all power settings since you have 2nd focal plane in those scopes.
Click to expand...
all this happens on a lead sled on a concrete shooting bench.

One of the 3 (the worst one) has the BDC reticle
 
Start over. Disassemble the scope mounts. Strip everything down. Clean and degrease all screws and screw holes with rubbing alcohol or acetone. Clean the mating surface of scope rings and scope tube. Re-assemble using an inch pound torque wrench to proper settings as per your mount manufacturer’s specs.

Properly clean the rifle. Use a bore guide, a good copper solvent, good coated rod with ball bearing handle. Make sure action screws are consistently tight and set to proper specs. Make sure barrel is floated by sliding a solar bill underneath.

Keep everything consistent. Same shooter on each gun. Same ammo and from same lot that has proven the most accurate. Shoot off sand bags. Zero at 100 yards to reduce shooter and atmospheric errors, on max power. Watch a video on proper form. Press trigger only into index finger pad. Don’t grab onto the rifle and induce torque. Keep shoulders square to the gun, at a 90 to the buttstock. Maintain the same cheek weld. You’ll know you’re doing it right when there is no parralax. That is when you Bob your head slightly while looking through the scope and not touching the rifle, the crosshairs remain still on the target. Do everything the same each shot. Let the barrel cool. Do not let it get beyond just slightly warm to the touch.

If after all this, with exceptional attention to detail and consistency, you still have problems, you can then blame the scope. Which given the brand, wouldn’t be surprising.
 
BigPig said:
Start over. Disassemble the scope mounts. Strip everything down. Clean and degrease all screws and screw holes with rubbing alcohol or acetone. Clean the mating surface of scope rings and scope tube. Re-assemble using an inch pound torque wrench to proper settings as per your mount manufacturer’s specs.

Properly clean the rifle. Use a bore guide, a good copper solvent, good coated rod with ball bearing handle. Make sure action screws are consistently tight and set to proper specs. Make sure barrel is floated by sliding a solar bill underneath.

Keep everything consistent. Same shooter on each gun. Same ammo and from same lot that has proven the most accurate. Shoot off sand bags. Zero at 100 yards to reduce shooter and atmospheric errors, on max power. Watch a video on proper form. Press trigger only into index finger pad. Don’t grab onto the rifle and induce torque. Keep shoulders square to the gun, at a 90 to the buttstock. Maintain the same cheek weld. You’ll know you’re doing it right when there is no parralax. That is when you Bob your head slightly while looking through the scope and not touching the rifle, the crosshairs remain still on the target. Do everything the same each shot. Let the barrel cool. Do not let it get beyond just slightly warm to the touch.

If after all this, with exceptional attention to detail and consistency, you still have problems, you can then blame the scope. Which given the brand, wouldn’t be surprising.
Click to expand...
I constantly do everything in your first 2 paragraphs on every new gun/scope combo that I mount. Been doing this for 44 years. This is the first time I have experienced this and I am not blaming the scope. I simply named them for reference. It is clearly something that we are doing.. At lower powers they are tack drivers. The only thing I have not tried is shooting off sand bags. But how would that explain the accuracy at lower power?
 
There are two independent forces of inertia to a gun and scope system upon firing. The gun moves backwards and the scope (internals) move forward, violently. When that inertia is abruptly stopped by slamming into the lead sled, the internals of the scope are tossed around. Picture a crash test dummy in a vehicle test when it slams into a wall. That’s what your scope’s guts are doing. And it’s hell on your stock too. Many a stock has been broken at the wrist by a Lead Sled. Ask any good gunsmith what he thinks of a lead sled!

Conversely, when a gun is fired into your soft shoulder, your rifle moves with the recoil and the force flows with your body. The impact is not as jarring.
 
Can someone tell me if this is true....
Any small inaccuracies at lower magnification (power) will be multiplied when moving to higher magnification?
 
oldmossback said:
I constantly do everything in your first 2 paragraphs on every new gun/scope combo that I mount. Been doing this for 44 years. This is the first time I have experienced this and I am not blaming the scope. I simply named them for reference. It is clearly something that we are doing.. At lower powers they are tack drivers. The only thing I have not tried is shooting off sand bags. But how would that explain the accuracy at lower power?
Click to expand...
Either parallax error (which on a fixed parrallax scope can only be addressed by check weld), or your scope is toast (which is unlikely with all 3, even Leupolds).
 
BigPig said:
Any inaccuracies in shooter form, yes. Not inherent rifle system accuracy.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but picture this. We all shoot well out to say 200 yrds on 6 power. Then when we switch up to say 9-12 power we are all over the place. This year on my sons bull he missed 4 shots at 550 yrds on 9 power. With one shot left i told him to crank it back to 6 power. Last shot dropped the bull. This was shooting off shooting sticks.
 
oldmossback said:
Can someone tell me if this is true....
Any small inaccuracies at lower magnification (power) will be multiplied when moving to higher magnification?
Click to expand...
Not really true but the wobbles seem way greater on higher powers so SOME folks seem to try to over-control the gun (force the shot) instead of a light, gentle, steady trigger press (not your issue but worth discussing)
Use the best rifle rest you can and re-test at 6 and again at 9 (or 12).
You SHOULD be getting better accuracy, on the range, with higher powers.
Check the POI shift through the power range with your boresight screen. It shouldn't shift and certainly shouldn't make groups larger.

Best,
Zeke
 
oldmossback said:
Agreed, but picture this. We all shoot well out to say 200 yrds on 6 power. Then when we switch up to say 9-12 power we are all over the place. This year on my sons bull he missed 4 shots at 550 yrds on 9 power. With one shot left i told him to crank it back to 6 power. Last shot dropped the bull. This was shooting off shooting sticks.
Click to expand...
Parralax error. It is accentuated with more magnification and range. Inconsistent cheek welds.

I’ll leave the issue of 550 yard shots off shooting sticks alone for the time being.
 
BigPig said:
Throw the lead sled in the trash! They destroy scopes. (Which may explain your problem?) Shoot off of front and rear bags.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with your reasoning behind disliking the lead sled. I don't regularly shoot off of mine for the same reasons you mention. On the few occasions that I do, I use it without any weight. However, they can be a useful tool, especially when sighting in rifles. I normally shoot prone off bipods with a rear support when sighting in. After a 3 shot group (performed properly) I will place my rifle in the sled to make my adjustments. I help quite a few guys yearly, some that don't have reliable optics, so this method removes any potential for adjustment inaccuracies.
 
If your poi undoubtedly shifts with more magnification, you have a scope problem. But we haven’t verified that yet. This can only be verified by shooting 10+ shot groups with same point of aim, at different scope power. I’m not talking about groups opening up, I’m talking about group impact changing.

Groups will naturally open up with range, within your rifle’s natural shot cone. The cone is identified by shooting high round count groups. For example a 1 moa group at 100 yds, 2 moa at 200, 3 moa at 300. That’s normal. Verified with 10 shot groups at least. Three shot groups are meaningless and leave too much open to chance. Once you have identified the rifle’s natural cone, you can tell when you have a problem.

Sooooo, one of three scenarios might be happening.

1. Groups are opening up with greater range, but still within the rifle’s natural cone. There’s nothing necessarily wrong with this situation and the only way to improve upon it is to tighten the cone with better ammo and better quality, more accurate equipment. Assuming shooting form is sound of course. Is your cone that bad?

2. Groups are opening up with a random inconsistent flyer or two outside the cone. This is a shooter form issue.

3. You can’t even identify a cone because everything is so inconsistent.
3a. Your form is terrible.
3b. Your equipment is terrible. Usually a scope or scope mount issue.
 
Last edited:
DaveD said:
I don't disagree with your reasoning behind disliking the lead sled. I don't regularly shoot off of mine for the same reasons you mention. On the few occasions that I do, I use it without any weight. However, they can be a useful tool, especially when sighting in rifles. I normally shoot prone off bipods with a rear support when sighting in. After a 3 shot group (performed properly) I will place my rifle in the sled to make my adjustments. I help quite a few guys yearly, some that don't have reliable optics, so this method removes any potential for adjustment inaccuracies.
Click to expand...
Yes we also do not use any weight on our sled.
 
BigPig said:
If your poi undoubtedly shifts with more magnification, you have a scope problem. But we haven’t verified that yet. This can only be verified by shooting 10+ shot groups with same point of aim, at different scope power. I’m not talking about groups opening up, I’m talking about group impact changing.

Groups will naturally open up with range, within your rifle’s natural shot cone. The cone is identified by shooting high round count groups. For example a 1 moa group at 100 yds, 2 moa at 200, 3 moa at 300. That’s normal. Verified with 10 shot groups at least. Three shot groups are meaningless and leave too much open to chance. Once you have identified the rifle’s natural cone, you can tell when you have a problem.

Sooooo, one of three scenarios might be happening.

1. Groups are opening up with greater range, but still within the rifle’s natural cone. There’s nothing necessarily wrong with this situation and the only way to improve upon it is with better ammo and more accurate equipment. Is your cone that bad?

2. Groups are opening up with a random inconsistent flyer or two outside the cone. This is a shooter form issue.

3. You can’t even identify a cone because everything is so inconsistent.
3a. Your form is terrible.
3b. Your equipment is terrible. Usually a scope or scope mount issue.
Click to expand...
Thanks.. I am going to use the bore sighter and see of or POI changes when magnification is increased.
If not i think our issue lies in #2-3 above.
Thanks for you help. Much appreciated
 
Verifying with a collimator is a good place to start. After that, and assuming it passes that step, do this…

At 100 yards. On a day with no wind. Off front and rear bags. Shoot a 10 -12 shot group at 6x. Do not change the point of aim or make any sight adjustments to the scope. Keep everything the same. Same form mechanics, same ammo, same everything. Let the barrel fully cool every 2-3 shots. Take your time. Measure group.

Then crank the scope up to max power and do the same thing again, also at 100 yards. Measure group and note changes.

Now, move out to 200 yards and repeat the process. 6x first, 10 shot group, then max power and another 10 shot group. Might want to do this on two different days to rule out fatigue.

This will give you the valuable information you need to properly identify a problem.


Now…
1. How big were the 100 yd groups? Both at 6x and at max X.

2. How big were the 200 yd groups? Again, both at 6x and max X?

Assuming the same range, the groups should get tighter with more mag and poi should stay the same.

At 200 (vs 100) the groups should approximately double in size, but same principles stated above should apply with regard to poi remaining the same between 6x and max and groups tightening with greater mag.

If any deviation from the above is shown, you have a problem with your equipment.
 
Last edited:
BigPig said:
Verifying with a collimator is a good place to start. After that, and assuming it passes that step, do this…

At 100 yards. On a day with no wind. Off front and rear bags. Shoot a 10 -12 shot group at 6x. Do not change the point of aim or make any sight adjustments to the scope. Keep everything the same. Same form mechanics, same ammo, same everything. Let the barrel fully cool every 2-3 shots. Take your time. Measure group.

Then crank the scope up to max power and do the same thing again, also at 100 yards. Measure group and note changes.

Now, move out to 200 yards and repeat the process. 6x first, 10 shot group, then max power and another 10 shot group. Might want to do this on two different days to rule out fatigue.

This will give you the valuable information you need to properly identify a problem.


Now…
1. How big were the 100 yd groups? Both at 6x and at max X.

2. How big were the 200 yd groups? Again, both at 6x and max X?

Assuming the same range, the groups should get tighter with more mag and poi should stay the same.

At 200 (vs 100) the groups should approximately double in size, but same principles stated above should apply with regard to poi remaining the same between 6x and max and groups tightening with greater mag.

If any deviation from the above is shown, you have a problem with your equipment.
Click to expand...
Wow, That is a lot of VERY helpful info and exactly the advice I was looking for. I will do just that as soon as the snow melts a little here.
Thank you much appreciated!
 
Verify with the collimator through the power range ...after you've checked the guard screws and scope mount/ring screws.

Speaking of shooting, if you're firing a group at 6x and them changing to 12x and firing, perhaps the group shift, size and flyers are created from pressure on the barrel from the stock???. Let it cool between groups if not between each shot.
 
Zeke said:
Verify with the collimator through the power range ...after you've checked the guard screws and scope mount/ring screws.

Speaking of shooting, if you're firing a group at 6x and them changing to 12x and firing, perhaps the group shift, size and flyers are created from pressure on the barrel from the stock???. Let it cool between groups if not between each shot.
Click to expand...
agreed, I know we are not great at letting it cool enough
 
What does the rifles shoot at 100yds with at 12x? Getting good groups?

Are you getting good groups at both 6x and 12x at 100yds?
 
oldmossback said:
agreed, I know we are not great at letting it cool enough
Click to expand...
No one is because we all get impatient....and it's so fun to shoot.
Ya, do your barrel a favor and let it cool some between shots and cool down between groups.

To keep my race-horse barrels from getting fried, I set a timer and it takes me 30+ minutes to shoot a 5 shot group. Even longer in the summer!

Best,
Zeke

PS: BigPig has offered some excellent advice and he and I are on the same page with things.
 

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