That's just what we all need around here!?Will make your blood boil
It was pretty good. Heading over to watch the Dell Match Play tomorrow. Should be good.I think I'll wait until I'm done bingeing Full Swing (and likely many other shows.... lol) Pretty awesome if you're a golf fan.
So tell us Hoss. Why did your blood boil?
kinda like 1/6 maybe?Like most folks, and because of the times, the mainstream media/gov narrative was much different than what actually happened.
kinda like 1/6 maybe?
The apologist nature of folks turning a blind eye to criminals when it suits their agenda is generally rich with both irony and hypocrisy….Even the bald agent that got shot was pissed they decided to raid.
Did they ever actually prove the pedophile part, seems like that was a cya as well.
I remember the "illegal gun" crap with weaver too.
If you literally smoke 60 folks to kill 1 dude, who is the real criminal nut job?
And, 60ish days from now, the millions of dudes with arm braces for their ar become owners of illegal guns. Wonder what will then?
That sniper they interviewed really was a trip, serious case of God complex
I may have misunderstood but I thought they said a grenade shell fell out of the box, and that’s what the UPS driver saw.Watched it and also watched Waco on paramount when that came out a year or 2 ago.
One thing keeps bugging me. UPS driver says a gerande falls out of a box and that's how the ATF started surveillance. My question is how the hell do you order gerande's? Did they try to trace the source out? I understand this was in the 90's but I find interesting you never hear this part. I guess I should try Google for an answer
The apologist nature of folks turning a blind eye to criminals when it suits their agenda is generally rich with both irony and hypocrisy….
Did they prove the pedophile part?? Are you serious? Ummm…. The suspect and his young victims all went up in smoke.
Didn’t know we were talking about Weaver. But it sounds like you’re saying that the pedophile should have been allowed to keep his machine guns & grenades, and just carry on playing with the little girls in the compound. ?
Smoking 60+ to get one is not excusable. 100% agree the ATF and FBI f’ed up BIG TIME. But regardless of that, there is no way that Koresh can be labeled anything but a criminal nut job, IMO.
You're killing me..... Love a good debate, though.There's one part, and again I wasn't tuned in to this originally, but Koresh tells the negotiator, that they could have picked him up any time, they didn't need to do this.
I watch this in light of Jan 6th, and the Witmer kidnapping, and I'm pretty skeptical.
There's lots of polygamists out on the Utah/Nevada desert, lots of antisocial folks, I'm betting sitting on a lot of weapons. But they ain't hurting no one.
Calling someone a pedofile, and proving it are different things.
I also never caught how they "knew" Koresh had "machine guns". Did THE FBI sell them to him?
I know in Weavers case, it was completely fabricated bs.
From a "tactical" side. If they "knew" he had machine guns, how did they not know he had 50bmg in a gun tower?
Sorry. I live in Utah. Lots of polygamists lots of weird religious folks, but there is a huge jump from that to deserving a death penalty for the "prophet" and his followers.
I also remember the same AG and Elian(I butchered it)Gonzalez
60 people died because the FBI/ATF wanted to flex. They knew he had the guns, and, they were watching him, apparently from the inside. Hard to believe they couldn't grab him away.
You would be surprised, I guess that not all polygamists are named Jeff's.
I admit I guess I missed the chick saying the 12 year old line.
But honestly, 60 people died, you don't get to paper over that because the leader was whatever.
Someone gave the green light. That someone lead to the deaths. They weren't dead before that. There is no reason for collateral damage when you've got a dude on the inside, and are watching from outside.
And yeah, prior to the internet, it wasn't just general knowledge how to convert semi auto.
I did notice that the inside agent wasn't named. I'm guessing that's because there were survivors that might point out the agent taught them how?
I mean we keep seeing these agents not just inform, but instigate. Jan 6, Witmer, etc.
60 people got the death sentence
Totally agree with this. Federal microscope would have been intense on this, had local LEO handled it the same.If this had been by a local sheriff's dept. or city police, the FBI would have been investigating them for violation of civil rights under the color of law. Yet if it is a federal agency that pulls this crap under a liberal Democrat admin. they get to walk away and not face charges.
This event took place under Bill Clinton and Janet Reno as the Attorney General, both very strong anti gun politicians.
RELH
I'm going to go out on a limb and make a guess that you weren't captain of your debate team in college? lolSo.
If you do illegal ****, your family deserves to pay the penalty? Really?
"My" kooky leader(my ancestors came with Brigham Young), deserved to die because the Missouri Gov made killing Mormons legal?
Ya. You are papering over dozens of dead folks to accomplish what? Catch a predator?
Again. I sure hope in about 50ish days when millions of dudes suddenly have "illegal guns" via wrist braces, you're cool with ATF killing their families. "Illegal guns" is not a death sentence. Like it or not, we don't just wipe out dozens to get one dude.
Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if you watched it. Seems the original dudes, who got shot up, and the negotiators all agree they f-ed up. That's not armchair, that's dudes on the ground, saying that.
I'm not fan of pedophiles. And I would be fine with it being a death sentence. But that doesn't excuse the dozens of others the ATF/FBI mowed through to get one dude.
They arrested Warren Jeff's. I'll notice they didn't kill off his sister wives or dozens of kids.
This may shock you, and perhaps you need to do research, but the FBI has a LOT of blood on its hands, and calling someone a pedophile doesn't excuse anything.
Not one ATF/FBI agent even got suspended despite all those dead folks.
Some of the kids, that Koresh molested, deserved to die for being molested?
Really?
What are you gonna do when Brandon declares your AR an illegal gun? Just be good watching your family get smoked?
Seriously?
Koresh can be whatever you want to call him.
What are the agents? Innocent?
**** just happened? Good lord
Totally agree with this. Federal microscope would have been intense on this, had local LEO handled it the same.
I'm going to go out on a limb and make a guess that you weren't captain of your debate team in college? lol
A) Not once did I ever say that if you do something illegal that your family deserves the death penalty. (You're either smoking something, drunk, or simply can't comprehend words if you think I have said that...)
B) I also never said that any kooky polygamist leaders deserved to die. (Again, not sure where that's coming from. YOU brought them into the discussion, not me....)
C) Yes, I agree the original dudes who got shot-up dropped the ball. Specifically, whatever leader said to go ahead with the raid even after they knew the lost the element of surprise. I've said numerous times that the ATF/FBI botched things.
D) Thanks for clearing up that you're not a fan of pedophiles. (Though 'not being a fan' is pretty a pretty hilarious stance...) Regarding the ATF/FBI "mowing through" dozens of others to get to the creep, um, when did they do that??? They inserted tear gas because they were sick and tired of negotiating with the psycho, and as a result the psychos inside set fire to the place. (If you want argue who set the fires, then fine, but the evidence available STRONGLY suggests the fires were set from the inside...). Inserting tear gas is NOT "mowing through" anyone.
E) Your comment regarding the FBI having a 'lot of blood on it's hands'... Again, I think that's a matter of opinion. The ATF botch the initial raid (said it many times that I agree with that). Regarding the FBI having blood on it's hands though, I simply don't agree. They put tear gas in and the kook lit the place up.
F) When did I EVER say that some of the kids that Koresh molested deserved to die? I have not once said that anybody deserved to die. (File that under your 'F' in college debate. Bad form to twist words and make assumptions regarding what I said. That's also sometimes called fake news, when you attribute a statement to someone when they never said it... lol)
G) Your comment; "What are you gonna do when Brandon declares your AR an illegal gun? Just be good watching your family get smoked?" Umm.... huh??? 1) That's a hypothetical that doesn't apply to the Koresh debate because no law change.... The weapons he had were always illegal. 2) Again, who TF ever said I was OK with anybody's family getting smoked??? I have ONLY said that the criminal pedophile was the root cause of the mess. NEVER said I was OK with innocent (or even guilty) people going up in flames.
As mentioned, I really DO love a good debate.....
Ummm….. Is that what blood boiling looks like? ?It's funny. One day, all those people were alive. Then, ATF rolls in heavy, and the result is lots of dead folks.
You don't get to pick and choose. You don't get to say Koresh deserved it, the others didn't. Mainly because that wasn't a choice afforded the dead folks.
The ATF actions = dead folks.
As much as you may like to change history, and support one but not the other, they are a package deal. That's how history works. If you supported Koresh going down, then you supported the WHOLE thing. It's a silly game you're trying to play.
"I supported taking Koresh, but...". There is no but. The but, is a pile of dead folks, including the kids you were so riled up about being molested, yet, them ending up dead, just happened.
And, to see this episode, add Weaver, add Kazinski, add a bunch of Muslims, add Witmer kidnappers, add Ray Epps, add countless others (Trump), you start to see a pretty bad picture, that is painted not by the "guilty" but by the feds.
The feds "botched things". Who? Did that person face charges? Lose their pension? What punishment came from smoking that many people? Who gave the order. Where did the buck stop? Reno? Did she get impeached? That many people are killed and nothing?
That's the blood boil part.
I smoke dozens, I take the needle or firing squad. Wear the FBI jacket or ATF jacket, the president nominated you to head the ATF.
Koresh was just another in a long list of dudes "on the FBI radar". That radar sure has a bunch of innocent dead folks on it to. It's almost as if, they want it that way?