WACO, on Netflix. You need to watch it

I saw it too. I thought one thing would have been funny to do. David stayed in the compound with some his followers that he doomed because he said God told him to stay after he agreed to come out peacefully. He kept bringing that up, how it was god’s plan for him to write an addition to Revelations. If one of the negotiators said to him that God also talked to him last night and told him to end the standoff, and that he was wrong about staying in there. It would have been worth it to see the reaction.
 
1EQFnzcGvr0n1jSLU6ckyAOPzEWrYbUQ9mgyWUkQUe8.jpg

This is FBI agent David Chipman standing over a charred body in the aftermath of Waco as if it was a trophy. He was also Joe Biden's chosen appointee to head the ATF.
 
Finished Full Swing last night so decided to watch the Waco show. The only thing that got my blood anywhere near boiling was to be reminded of what a freaking criminal nut-job that Koresh was.

Strange to hear you refer to the agents as instigators. Seems like the primary instigator was the pedophile stockpiling illegal guns snd hand grenades.

Did the ATF botch the initial raid? Yup! Was there competing factions and agendas within the FBI (Hostage rescue team vs. negotiation team)? Yup! Was it a shite-show? Yup!

I’m reminded of when somebody complains about getting beat up by a cop, and the common refrain is something like; ‘If you don’t want to get beat up by cops, then you shouldn’t break the law…’. To me there is a single reason the shite-show started; A pedophile criminal who stockpiled illegal weapons.
 
Even the bald agent that got shot was pissed they decided to raid.

Did they ever actually prove the pedophile part, seems like that was a cya as well.

I remember the "illegal gun" crap with weaver too.

If you literally smoke 60 folks to kill 1 dude, who is the real criminal nut job?

And, 60ish days from now, the millions of dudes with arm braces for their ar become owners of illegal guns. Wonder what will then?

That sniper they interviewed really was a trip, serious case of God complex
 
Ruby Ridge and Waco was a ATF clusterf##k where they wanted good press at the expense of costing lives. At Waco they wanted to take the compound by surprise, and the brass still ordered the raid after learning their surprise had been blown and Koresh & followers were waiting armed to the teeth. All because the ATF brass had invited the press to view the raid.
The local sheriff advised ATF that Koresh came into town on certain days and could be taken into custody with very little danger. Instead they forced the confrontation at the compound.
RELH
 
Watched it and also watched Waco on paramount when that came out a year or 2 ago.

One thing keeps bugging me. UPS driver says a gerande falls out of a box and that's how the ATF started surveillance. My question is how the hell do you order gerande's? Did they try to trace the source out? I understand this was in the 90's but I find interesting you never hear this part. I guess I should try Google for an answer
 
hossblur said:
Even the bald agent that got shot was pissed they decided to raid.

Did they ever actually prove the pedophile part, seems like that was a cya as well.

I remember the "illegal gun" crap with weaver too.

If you literally smoke 60 folks to kill 1 dude, who is the real criminal nut job?

And, 60ish days from now, the millions of dudes with arm braces for their ar become owners of illegal guns. Wonder what will then?

That sniper they interviewed really was a trip, serious case of God complex
Click to expand...
The apologist nature of folks turning a blind eye to criminals when it suits their agenda is generally rich with both irony and hypocrisy….

Did they prove the pedophile part?? Are you serious? Ummm…. The suspect and his young victims all went up in smoke.

Didn’t know we were talking about Weaver. But it sounds like you’re saying that the pedophile should have been allowed to keep his machine guns & grenades, and just carry on playing with the little girls in the compound. ?

Smoking 60+ to get one is not excusable. 100% agree the ATF and FBI f’ed up BIG TIME. But regardless of that, there is no way that Koresh can be labeled anything but a criminal nut job, IMO.
 
nfh said:
Watched it and also watched Waco on paramount when that came out a year or 2 ago.

One thing keeps bugging me. UPS driver says a gerande falls out of a box and that's how the ATF started surveillance. My question is how the hell do you order gerande's? Did they try to trace the source out? I understand this was in the 90's but I find interesting you never hear this part. I guess I should try Google for an answer
Click to expand...
I may have misunderstood but I thought they said a grenade shell fell out of the box, and that’s what the UPS driver saw.
 
azhunteraz said:
The apologist nature of folks turning a blind eye to criminals when it suits their agenda is generally rich with both irony and hypocrisy….

Did they prove the pedophile part?? Are you serious? Ummm…. The suspect and his young victims all went up in smoke.

Didn’t know we were talking about Weaver. But it sounds like you’re saying that the pedophile should have been allowed to keep his machine guns & grenades, and just carry on playing with the little girls in the compound. ?

Smoking 60+ to get one is not excusable. 100% agree the ATF and FBI f’ed up BIG TIME. But regardless of that, there is no way that Koresh can be labeled anything but a criminal nut job, IMO.
Click to expand...


There's one part, and again I wasn't tuned in to this originally, but Koresh tells the negotiator, that they could have picked him up any time, they didn't need to do this.

I watch this in light of Jan 6th, and the Witmer kidnapping, and I'm pretty skeptical.

There's lots of polygamists out on the Utah/Nevada desert, lots of antisocial folks, I'm betting sitting on a lot of weapons. But they ain't hurting no one.

Calling someone a pedofile, and proving it are different things.


I also never caught how they "knew" Koresh had "machine guns". Did THE FBI sell them to him?

I know in Weavers case, it was completely fabricated bs.


From a "tactical" side. If they "knew" he had machine guns, how did they not know he had 50bmg in a gun tower?

Sorry. I live in Utah. Lots of polygamists lots of weird religious folks, but there is a huge jump from that to deserving a death penalty for the "prophet" and his followers.

I also remember the same AG and Elian(I butchered it)Gonzalez
 
hossblur said:
There's one part, and again I wasn't tuned in to this originally, but Koresh tells the negotiator, that they could have picked him up any time, they didn't need to do this.

I watch this in light of Jan 6th, and the Witmer kidnapping, and I'm pretty skeptical.

There's lots of polygamists out on the Utah/Nevada desert, lots of antisocial folks, I'm betting sitting on a lot of weapons. But they ain't hurting no one.

Calling someone a pedofile, and proving it are different things.


I also never caught how they "knew" Koresh had "machine guns". Did THE FBI sell them to him?

I know in Weavers case, it was completely fabricated bs.


From a "tactical" side. If they "knew" he had machine guns, how did they not know he had 50bmg in a gun tower?

Sorry. I live in Utah. Lots of polygamists lots of weird religious folks, but there is a huge jump from that to deserving a death penalty for the "prophet" and his followers.

I also remember the same AG and Elian(I butchered it)Gonzalez
Click to expand...
You're killing me..... Love a good debate, though. ;)

"...how did they not know he had a 50bmg in a gun tower?" Who said they didn't, and what does that matter? Seemed they were hell-bent on raiding the joint anyway. (Again, I agree they F'ed up the raid.) Regarding how he got the machine guns, did you watch the documentary or not?? He didn't buy them as machine guns. He bought semi-autos, then converted them. They had an undercover dude inside watching it all happen. (Your comment speculating about him possibly being sold the machine guns by the FBI reeks of conspiracy theory. You spout it even though it's documented specifically how he got the weapons, and it wasn't from the FBI.... )

Are you REALLY trying to brush over that freaking vile pedophile shite? The loony woman they had on the documentary was defending him having sex with children! Did you not see that??? She literally said something like; "...they weren't under aged girls, because you come of age at 12."! She said that! There is virtually ZERO dispute that he was having sex with young girls, and it's validated by those poor folks who were mostly brainwashed by the predator.

Regarding lots of polygamists in Utah/Nevada maybe sitting on a bunch of weapons, but "...ain't hurting anyone.". HUH??? You mean the same polygamists who are ALSO having sex with under aged girls??? (Does the name Warren Jeffs ring a bell???)
Also, BTW, "sitting on a lot of weapons" and having possession of fully automatic weapons (and explosives/hand grenades) are two different things, don't you think??

Who said anyone deserved the death penalty??? I don't remember me or anyone else here (or in the doc) saying they deserved to die. Those are words you are spinning that were never spoken in the doc or on this thread. Besides, he nor all of the others in the compound (guily, complicit or otherwise) got the death penalty. They were not tried and sentenced to death. They were killed in a raid that was botched, and then ended up going horribly wrong when they got fed-up and decided to try to gas them out.

Weaver, Gonzales, AG (Big girl, Reno) whatever.... Koresh was a manipulative freaking wacko, who stockpiled illegal weapons and had sex with children. Blows my mind that anyone would choose to look past that just for the sake of voicing spite for the ATF/FBI.

Doc made your blood boil?? Sounds like your blood was already boiling....

My blood boils when I think of Koresh, Jeffs, priests, and any/all other freaks (religious or otherwise) having sex with children.
 
60 people died because the FBI/ATF wanted to flex. They knew he had the guns, and, they were watching him, apparently from the inside. Hard to believe they couldn't grab him away.

You would be surprised, I guess that not all polygamists are named Jeff's.


I admit I guess I missed the chick saying the 12 year old line.

But honestly, 60 people died, you don't get to paper over that because the leader was whatever.

Someone gave the green light. That someone lead to the deaths. They weren't dead before that. There is no reason for collateral damage when you've got a dude on the inside, and are watching from outside.


And yeah, prior to the internet, it wasn't just general knowledge how to convert semi auto.

I did notice that the inside agent wasn't named. I'm guessing that's because there were survivors that might point out the agent taught them how?

I mean we keep seeing these agents not just inform, but instigate. Jan 6, Witmer, etc.

60 people got the death sentence
 
hossblur said:
60 people died because the FBI/ATF wanted to flex. They knew he had the guns, and, they were watching him, apparently from the inside. Hard to believe they couldn't grab him away.

You would be surprised, I guess that not all polygamists are named Jeff's.


I admit I guess I missed the chick saying the 12 year old line.

But honestly, 60 people died, you don't get to paper over that because the leader was whatever.

Someone gave the green light. That someone lead to the deaths. They weren't dead before that. There is no reason for collateral damage when you've got a dude on the inside, and are watching from outside.


And yeah, prior to the internet, it wasn't just general knowledge how to convert semi auto.

I did notice that the inside agent wasn't named. I'm guessing that's because there were survivors that might point out the agent taught them how?

I mean we keep seeing these agents not just inform, but instigate. Jan 6, Witmer, etc.

60 people got the death sentence
Click to expand...

Honestly beginning to wonder if you even watched the documentary or have done any research at all.

OK, so you admit you missed the pedophile thing. From my perspective, it's important to accept and understand he WAS a creepy pedophile molester. It is important because it helps to put a frame around the freaking nut job that these poor souls lost themselves to.

Speaking of poor souls..... There were WAY more than 60 people that died, so not sure where you got that number. (Like, seriously, am I missing something???) They died because their kooky pedophile leader stockpiled illegal weapons and the ATF botched the initial raid. They would not have died if there leader was not involved in illegal activities. (Again, the apologist attitude towards lawbreakers when is suits a specific agenda never ceases to amaze me.... ) I'm not 'papering over' the fact that all those people died. I just firmly believe that ultimately the lawbreaker(s) are accountable. If their pedophile leader was not doing illegal stuff, they would NOT have died. (In fact, YOU seem to be 'papering over' the fact that Koresh was a pedophile, molesting lawbreaker....)

I also firmly believe that the reason they died was because Koresh the pedophile had 'prophesized' he would be a martyr, and there was NO WAY in h_ll that he was ever going to surrender given the fact that he had been molesting girls. His house of cards fell down. But that is just my personal opinion... ;)

As far a someone 'giving the green light'.... Yeah, no sh_t someone gave it. They gave the green light to raid the place. So what? Armchair quarter-backing isn't my thing....

All polygamist weirdos aren't named Jeffs???? Really??? I'm surprised! lol (I noticed you ignored my challenge to your point regarding stockpiling weapons; legal vs. illegal....)

Also, regarding your comment on the agent inside 'not being named....'. Again, did you even watch the F'ing documentary? WTF??? His name was Robert Rodriguez, and they named him in the film!!!

Maybe watch the documentary again and try to focus this time... LOL

My mama warned me about debating on the internet, yet I continue to torture myself.... lol
 
So.

If you do illegal ****, your family deserves to pay the penalty? Really?

"My" kooky leader(my ancestors came with Brigham Young), deserved to die because the Missouri Gov made killing Mormons legal?

Ya. You are papering over dozens of dead folks to accomplish what? Catch a predator?

Again. I sure hope in about 50ish days when millions of dudes suddenly have "illegal guns" via wrist braces, you're cool with ATF killing their families. "Illegal guns" is not a death sentence. Like it or not, we don't just wipe out dozens to get one dude.

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if you watched it. Seems the original dudes, who got shot up, and the negotiators all agree they f-ed up. That's not armchair, that's dudes on the ground, saying that.

I'm not fan of pedophiles. And I would be fine with it being a death sentence. But that doesn't excuse the dozens of others the ATF/FBI mowed through to get one dude.

They arrested Warren Jeff's. I'll notice they didn't kill off his sister wives or dozens of kids.

This may shock you, and perhaps you need to do research, but the FBI has a LOT of blood on its hands, and calling someone a pedophile doesn't excuse anything.

Not one ATF/FBI agent even got suspended despite all those dead folks.

Some of the kids, that Koresh molested, deserved to die for being molested?

Really?


What are you gonna do when Brandon declares your AR an illegal gun? Just be good watching your family get smoked?

Seriously?

Koresh can be whatever you want to call him.

What are the agents? Innocent?

**** just happened? Good lord
 
If this had been by a local sheriff's dept. or city police, the FBI would have been investigating them for violation of civil rights under the color of law. Yet if it is a federal agency that pulls this crap under a liberal Democrat admin. they get to walk away and not face charges.
This event took place under Bill Clinton and Janet Reno as the Attorney General, both very strong anti gun politicians.
RELH
 
RELH said:
If this had been by a local sheriff's dept. or city police, the FBI would have been investigating them for violation of civil rights under the color of law. Yet if it is a federal agency that pulls this crap under a liberal Democrat admin. they get to walk away and not face charges.
This event took place under Bill Clinton and Janet Reno as the Attorney General, both very strong anti gun politicians.
RELH
Click to expand...
Totally agree with this. Federal microscope would have been intense on this, had local LEO handled it the same.
hossblur said:
So.

If you do illegal ****, your family deserves to pay the penalty? Really?

"My" kooky leader(my ancestors came with Brigham Young), deserved to die because the Missouri Gov made killing Mormons legal?

Ya. You are papering over dozens of dead folks to accomplish what? Catch a predator?

Again. I sure hope in about 50ish days when millions of dudes suddenly have "illegal guns" via wrist braces, you're cool with ATF killing their families. "Illegal guns" is not a death sentence. Like it or not, we don't just wipe out dozens to get one dude.

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if you watched it. Seems the original dudes, who got shot up, and the negotiators all agree they f-ed up. That's not armchair, that's dudes on the ground, saying that.

I'm not fan of pedophiles. And I would be fine with it being a death sentence. But that doesn't excuse the dozens of others the ATF/FBI mowed through to get one dude.

They arrested Warren Jeff's. I'll notice they didn't kill off his sister wives or dozens of kids.

This may shock you, and perhaps you need to do research, but the FBI has a LOT of blood on its hands, and calling someone a pedophile doesn't excuse anything.

Not one ATF/FBI agent even got suspended despite all those dead folks.

Some of the kids, that Koresh molested, deserved to die for being molested?

Really?


What are you gonna do when Brandon declares your AR an illegal gun? Just be good watching your family get smoked?

Seriously?

Koresh can be whatever you want to call him.

What are the agents? Innocent?

**** just happened? Good lord
Click to expand...
I'm going to go out on a limb and make a guess that you weren't captain of your debate team in college? lol

A) Not once did I ever say that if you do something illegal that your family deserves the death penalty. (You're either smoking something, drunk, or simply can't comprehend words if you think I have said that...)
B) I also never said that any kooky polygamist leaders deserved to die. (Again, not sure where that's coming from. YOU brought them into the discussion, not me....)
C) Yes, I agree the original dudes who got shot-up dropped the ball. Specifically, whatever leader said to go ahead with the raid even after they knew the lost the element of surprise. I've said numerous times that the ATF/FBI botched things.
D) Thanks for clearing up that you're not a fan of pedophiles. (Though 'not being a fan' is pretty a pretty hilarious stance...) Regarding the ATF/FBI "mowing through" dozens of others to get to the creep, um, when did they do that??? They inserted tear gas because they were sick and tired of negotiating with the psycho, and as a result the psychos inside set fire to the place. (If you want argue who set the fires, then fine, but the evidence available STRONGLY suggests the fires were set from the inside...). Inserting tear gas is NOT "mowing through" anyone. ;)
E) Your comment regarding the FBI having a 'lot of blood on it's hands'... Again, I think that's a matter of opinion. The ATF botch the initial raid (said it many times that I agree with that). Regarding the FBI having blood on it's hands though, I simply don't agree. They put tear gas in and the kook lit the place up.
F) When did I EVER say that some of the kids that Koresh molested deserved to die? I have not once said that anybody deserved to die. (File that under your 'F' in college debate. Bad form to twist words and make assumptions regarding what I said. That's also sometimes called fake news, when you attribute a statement to someone when they never said it... lol)
G) Your comment; "What are you gonna do when Brandon declares your AR an illegal gun? Just be good watching your family get smoked?" Umm.... huh??? 1) That's a hypothetical that doesn't apply to the Koresh debate because no law change.... The weapons he had were always illegal. 2) Again, who TF ever said I was OK with anybody's family getting smoked??? I have ONLY said that the criminal pedophile was the root cause of the mess. NEVER said I was OK with innocent (or even guilty) people going up in flames.

As mentioned, I really DO love a good debate..... :ROFLMAO:
 
azhunteraz said:
Totally agree with this. Federal microscope would have been intense on this, had local LEO handled it the same.

I'm going to go out on a limb and make a guess that you weren't captain of your debate team in college? lol

A) Not once did I ever say that if you do something illegal that your family deserves the death penalty. (You're either smoking something, drunk, or simply can't comprehend words if you think I have said that...)
B) I also never said that any kooky polygamist leaders deserved to die. (Again, not sure where that's coming from. YOU brought them into the discussion, not me....)
C) Yes, I agree the original dudes who got shot-up dropped the ball. Specifically, whatever leader said to go ahead with the raid even after they knew the lost the element of surprise. I've said numerous times that the ATF/FBI botched things.
D) Thanks for clearing up that you're not a fan of pedophiles. (Though 'not being a fan' is pretty a pretty hilarious stance...) Regarding the ATF/FBI "mowing through" dozens of others to get to the creep, um, when did they do that??? They inserted tear gas because they were sick and tired of negotiating with the psycho, and as a result the psychos inside set fire to the place. (If you want argue who set the fires, then fine, but the evidence available STRONGLY suggests the fires were set from the inside...). Inserting tear gas is NOT "mowing through" anyone. ;)
E) Your comment regarding the FBI having a 'lot of blood on it's hands'... Again, I think that's a matter of opinion. The ATF botch the initial raid (said it many times that I agree with that). Regarding the FBI having blood on it's hands though, I simply don't agree. They put tear gas in and the kook lit the place up.
F) When did I EVER say that some of the kids that Koresh molested deserved to die? I have not once said that anybody deserved to die. (File that under your 'F' in college debate. Bad form to twist words and make assumptions regarding what I said. That's also sometimes called fake news, when you attribute a statement to someone when they never said it... lol)
G) Your comment; "What are you gonna do when Brandon declares your AR an illegal gun? Just be good watching your family get smoked?" Umm.... huh??? 1) That's a hypothetical that doesn't apply to the Koresh debate because no law change.... The weapons he had were always illegal. 2) Again, who TF ever said I was OK with anybody's family getting smoked??? I have ONLY said that the criminal pedophile was the root cause of the mess. NEVER said I was OK with innocent (or even guilty) people going up in flames.

As mentioned, I really DO love a good debate..... :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...


It's funny. One day, all those people were alive. Then, ATF rolls in heavy, and the result is lots of dead folks.

You don't get to pick and choose. You don't get to say Koresh deserved it, the others didn't. Mainly because that wasn't a choice afforded the dead folks.

The ATF actions = dead folks.

As much as you may like to change history, and support one but not the other, they are a package deal. That's how history works. If you supported Koresh going down, then you supported the WHOLE thing. It's a silly game you're trying to play.

"I supported taking Koresh, but...". There is no but. The but, is a pile of dead folks, including the kids you were so riled up about being molested, yet, them ending up dead, just happened.

And, to see this episode, add Weaver, add Kazinski, add a bunch of Muslims, add Witmer kidnappers, add Ray Epps, add countless others (Trump), you start to see a pretty bad picture, that is painted not by the "guilty" but by the feds.

The feds "botched things". Who? Did that person face charges? Lose their pension? What punishment came from smoking that many people? Who gave the order. Where did the buck stop? Reno? Did she get impeached? That many people are killed and nothing?

That's the blood boil part.

I smoke dozens, I take the needle or firing squad. Wear the FBI jacket or ATF jacket, the president nominated you to head the ATF.

Koresh was just another in a long list of dudes "on the FBI radar". That radar sure has a bunch of innocent dead folks on it to. It's almost as if, they want it that way?
 
hossblur said:
It's funny. One day, all those people were alive. Then, ATF rolls in heavy, and the result is lots of dead folks.

You don't get to pick and choose. You don't get to say Koresh deserved it, the others didn't. Mainly because that wasn't a choice afforded the dead folks.

The ATF actions = dead folks.

As much as you may like to change history, and support one but not the other, they are a package deal. That's how history works. If you supported Koresh going down, then you supported the WHOLE thing. It's a silly game you're trying to play.

"I supported taking Koresh, but...". There is no but. The but, is a pile of dead folks, including the kids you were so riled up about being molested, yet, them ending up dead, just happened.

And, to see this episode, add Weaver, add Kazinski, add a bunch of Muslims, add Witmer kidnappers, add Ray Epps, add countless others (Trump), you start to see a pretty bad picture, that is painted not by the "guilty" but by the feds.

The feds "botched things". Who? Did that person face charges? Lose their pension? What punishment came from smoking that many people? Who gave the order. Where did the buck stop? Reno? Did she get impeached? That many people are killed and nothing?

That's the blood boil part.

I smoke dozens, I take the needle or firing squad. Wear the FBI jacket or ATF jacket, the president nominated you to head the ATF.

Koresh was just another in a long list of dudes "on the FBI radar". That radar sure has a bunch of innocent dead folks on it to. It's almost as if, they want it that way?
Click to expand...
Ummm….. Is that what blood boiling looks like? ?
 
My reaction to episode #1

So the ATF was on the inside. How much did the ATF instigate?

The ATF / Feds tipped off local media. [ Just like the raid of Melania's underwear drawer at Mar Lago] The lost news reporter could not find the site. Asked the local postman for directions. The local postman was part of the cult and tipped off the cult that the Feds were coming that day. Feds proceeded with the raid knowing the element of surprise was gone.

Complete incompetence by the ATF on behalf of the Clinton Administration.
 
When I was a detective Sgt. A ATF agent came into the office and told me if I should arrest someone with a machine gun, call him and he would take over the case.
My reply was why should I call him after I did all the leg work and report writing in order for him to take it over for the glory. He left with a frown on his face.
RELH
 

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