What went right on the Oak Creeks?

tkjwonta

Active Member
Messages
106
It seems like nearly every "classic" mule deer destination is dwindling in both quality and quantity of deer. Yet, in the last few years it seems like Oak Creek has cranked out a few really nice bucks and the drawing odds and auction tag prices clearly reflect that.

Is this just an isolated incident, or is there something that we can learn from this instance and apply to mule deer management more broadly? Limited competition from elk? Low human encroachment/development? Difficult terrain? Predator control?

It seems like it's very difficult to pinpoint a reason for mule deer declines across the west, so maybe it is helpful to look to one of the rare areas that is doing well. Any thoughts?
 
The fire that nuked 80% of the unit in 2012 and reseed for starters. The boundaries changed and private can't be considered general unit, saving buck deer lives. It's not a big unit, time will catch up at some point. Any given point can be hiked in a few hours.
 
The fires. Then they increased the size of the unit (doubled it?) and didn't increase permits at the same ratio. The overall herd increased also. They slammed predators to help establish the bighorn sheep. They hammered the elk. And the guides and outfitters were not pounding it really hard until a few year ago. Enjoy it while it lasts.
 
Thanks for all the feedback, it sounds like there were several factors at play, some of which might be reproducible elsewhere. With all the talk of returning the land to the way it once was, I think fire should be a much larger part of the equation.
 
The overall population never really recovered from the late 80’s die off but I think the biggest factor is the low number of tags issued since it was closed down in the early 90’s. I may be wrong but I don’t know that I’ve ever seen more than this years 18 rifle tags issued since it went LE.
Through the mid 80’s, there were more tags than that in our camp alone and most tags got filled every year with 150 to 180+ bucks. Pretty sad to see that unit now.
 
The fire helped as it closed the main canyon access point for a few years, also moving the boundary down to the highway, if the rut kicked in a little early there were a few good bucks that would move down toward the fields and get slammed by general tag holders. Also them transplanting some deer from the island I think has helped. It won't last though the outfitters will ruin it in no time. I wish all the outfitters would be put out of business personally, if you want to hunt do it yourself with a few friends, sick of seeing outfitters ruin everything because they have 45 guides on every point in every unit.
 
2019 and 2020 had poor fawn recruitment here according to dwr folks i've talked to in the field. Personally it hasn't looked bad to me. If past history tells us anything then the DWR will start issuing enough tags to kill this place off within the next few years.

This year our wonderful mayor got tired of people complaining about their flowers getting eaten so they called in the state cullers. They should have culled the people and kept the deer. The deer are much better neighbors IMO. At least they gossip a lot less.

Of course the DWR killing town deer is nothing new but usually they do it on the sly. I'm a night owl and twice over the last few years I've had a spotlight shine into my living room window. Both times I went out and hopped in my truck to see who was doing what and both times it was the DWR spotlighting and culling deer. I don't know what gave them the idea that there were any deer in my living room. You would think they would give folks a heads up before doing that but that would probably cause too much uproar if people knew about it.

This last year I did see more large bucks than probably any given year in the past but I'm sure it won't last, there will be another new hotspot to pop up somewhere else until the DWR hears about it and kills it off.
 
Here are my thoughts.
Good habitat and conditions grow deer numbers and fires that take out Cedar/Juniper encroachment always seems to help.
If you look at pictures of the Utah landscape when deer were abundant (1950-1970) you see at least double the sage brush from what exists today. Sage is great winter feed for deer but I challenge you to find much that is healthy now days. Cedar/Juniper forests eliminate deer feed. Chaining helps but it's expensive and not near enough of it is happening. Most fires are suppressed before they can do mother nature's job.
Limited tag numbers obviously allows bucks to grow big, but then opportunity is limited and everybody complains about not getting to hunt, so more tags are issued.
Lots of other factors play into good deer production and it's a complicated equation. From my observation, every unit cycles up and down. I think the Oak Creek is at the top of it's cycle, but it won't last.
 
Hey LittleBig!

They Found our Chaining/Railing doesn't Really Work!

Took em 50 Years to Figure that out!

They Claim after Railing/Chaining the Cheat Grass Moved In & Took all the Moisture!

Just Repeating what they Claim!
 
Well Bess, that makes it even more depressing, because the same thing seems to happen with fires. Cheat Grass almost always out competes the native grass they reseed with.
Man I miss hunting in the Sixties!
 
Come on guys can you please BS around with each other somewhere else.
Let this headline die.
You’re killing me!
 
I'm not sure anything is really right with that unit. It's been taken over by several different outfitters. It's being managed like it's a premium LE unit rather than a regular one like Vernon or the Book Cliffs. More tags should be given out on that unit, plain and simple!
 
I strongly disagree.
Why and what do you disagree with? That more tags will ruin the unit? If history tells us anything then the DWR will over harvest it with increased tags (MONEY!). It has happened to every unit in the past. Is it the size of the unit you disagree with? It isn't a large unit but limited access does help offset that. There isn't exactly a four-wheeler trail on every hillside thank goodness.

People have mentioned habitat, cheatgrass and fire as issues. The geography here creates plenty of places for the seclusion that bucks need to grow big and that is one thing that is in the herds favor.

There is a reason this mountain has had multiple large fires in the recent past and that is cheatgrass. This years fire in Leamington destroyed even more habitat. Cheatgrass makes the flames move like a gasoline fire and that makes it hard to get it under control. Lots of cattle and feed burned up this year. Next year there will be even more cheatgrass and this cycle will continue until the cheatgrass can be eradicated or controlled (likely not going to happen). There is very little timber left and more gets lost with each fire. This mountain will never be the same in my lifetime. There are places around here now where the landscape looks similar to the moon.
 
So Ridge?

You Want A Tag?

And a Million Other TARDS want one as Well!

Please Do Tell us How You Figure The Unit can Withstand 'More Tags'?
It can't. They are taking the cream off the top every year. Sad part is most of the bucks are just starting to get big, 4-5 year old bucks . Imagine if they had 2-3 more years. They should cut tags in half, add a management hunt during the rut...
 
It can't. They are taking the cream off the top every year. Sad part is most of the bucks are just starting to get big, 4-5 year old bucks . Imagine if they had 2-3 more years. They should cut tags in half, add a management hunt during the rut...
Have you ever even stepped foot on this unit? It doesn't sound like it.
 
It can't. They are taking the cream off the top every year. Sad part is most of the bucks are just starting to get big, 4-5 year old bucks . Imagine if they had 2-3 more years. They should cut tags in half, add a management hunt during the rut...
It's this mindset that's ruining deer hunting in
Utah.
Here's some comparisons. The Henry unit has about 2,700 deer and gives out 50 general public draw tags. Oak Creek has a little less than 2,000 deer and gives out 35 tags. This is not including about a half dozen or so auction tags for each unit.
So on the Oak Creek unit there's probably around 600-700 bucks with at least half of them being mature bucks. So saying that around 30 mature bucks killed per year is too much is just not correct. I do think the unit could handle 20 or 30 more tags each year and people would continue to see plenty of mature bucks to hunt. The DWR needs to stop managing the Oak Creek unit like it's a premium unit but if they continue to get $50k for the auction tags, nothing will change.
 
So Ridge?

When The DWR Blabs Out a Number You Take it as Gospel?
We'll, when I've been on the unit enough to know what I'm seeing with my own eyes. Then I do. Some units are harder to hunt than others too. Some units can handle a little more hunting pressure and be just fine.
 
How many tags do you think should be given for the oak creek and age class should be targeted? There's not giants all over like most would expect.
 
I'm not sure, I'm not the one who threw out that there's 6-700 bucks. I've spent alot of time on the unit too.
 
Atleast I didn't give a number without nothing to back it up
Ok, I'll admit that those numbers are on the high side. If you go off the 1,900 or so deer on the unit and have a 30-35/ 100 buck for ratio. Then there are around 400-500 bucks on the unit. So knowing how tough that unit is and the bucks do have plenty of places to hide when pressured. I think giving out 30 or 40 more tags will not ruin the unit. Are you going to argue against that too?
 
Those numbers look closer to what's there. 30-40 more tags would take the age class down quickly. Its got great genetics, but need time to get to potential for bucks. The unit just isn't that big, it's not deep by any means. The division needs to make more archery and muzzy tags available instead of more on the rifle.
 
eliminating the expo and all but one auction tags would help too. I know I'm not putting my 12 deer points in for that unit this year.
 
Elk, it's taking 20 points now to be in the bonus pool for that unit. With 12 points, my odds of drawing are less than 2 percent. Your right, I do want to hunt rather than waiting 10-15 more years.
 
A big thing that helped this unit take off was when they moved the boundary a few years ago from the forest boundary down to the highway. There were lots of hunters catching deer below the forest boundary. Lots of deer come down and feed in the night. People would catch them coming out at first light.

The boundary change reduced hunter numbers by a huge amount. I would guess it eliminated at least 100 hunters if not a lot more that were hunting the fringes or private land on general season deer tags.
 
It’s good to hear a positive report about Utah deer hunting!
Usually it’s the premium units getting all the attention.

I looked at the draw statistics for 2020 Oak Creek any weapon

For residents it took 20 points to be guaranteed a bonus tag.

For non-residents there were 3 guys with 21 points applied for the 1 bonus tag.


Any predictions on what 2021 applications will look like?
 
Really deadi? Have you ever stepped foot this unit?
Management hunt? I can’t speak for the oak creek but you’ve definitely hit the nail on the head for the LE unit just to the north of it. The Vernon is ran rampant with big management type bucks! My guess is the ruggedness and winter that isn’t very harsh as well as low tags keeps the oak creek in good shape.
 
Management hunt? I can’t speak for the oak creek but you’ve definitely hit the nail on the head for the LE unit just to the north of it. The Vernon is ran rampant with big management type bucks! My guess is the ruggedness and winter that isn’t very harsh as well as low tags keeps the oak creek in good shape.

Vernon has some great deer habitat. Bottom line is they give out A LOT of tags (155 rifle tags last year). The good news is, there's better opportunity to hunt on the Vernon. The bad news is, the age class suffers. But I do know for a fact that there's still some great deer on Vernon (It's a huge unit compared to Oak Creek).

IMO all units will go through cycles. The Henrie's and the Pauns. are both good examples of that. The Henrie's appears to be headed down a bit and the Pauns has already been there and appears to be headed back up. Between elk and deer, I've applied for Oak Creek for about 24 years straight (I was putting in for Oak Creek when Oak Creek wasn't "cool" :LOL:). I've seen the unit change quite a bit and 2 of the major factors IMO are of course the fires and also the attempt to exterminate the elk. I just hope when my name is called that it will be at a decent point in the cycle. I think inevitably it will peak and turn downwards at some point. My gut tells me It's close. I hope I'm wrong.
 
You May be on to Something Ridge!

I Don't Own One GAWD-DAMNED Deer Point!

If I Start Bittching & Whining for More Tags in LE Units I Just Might Enhance My Odds with Zero F'N Points!




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