Where did the 200 permits come from?

BBB

Very Active Member
Messages
1,065
I don’t want to turn this into an post of contention. I do not intend to change anyone’s mind on how Utah is managed, obviously we all have strong opinions. As a non-resident (born and raised in Utah), I would like to know hard facts on from where the 200 permits for the expo were pulled from? How were these tags allocated and to whom (res vs. non res) prior to being given to the expo? Thanks
 

hornkiller

Long Time Member
Messages
3,544
They are pulled straight from the public draws!
Its sucks bad when You are very close by the odds book at being 100% on drawing a tag and the con org $.f.w. steals the tag from the public draw! I say stolen cause thats what it is!
I was 100% by the 2019 odds to draw a non res buffalo tag last year. When I went to put in for that hunt in 2020 it was not even an option and I believe 1-2 other hunts simply gone! Guess where those tags went. Thanks $.f.w.
 
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BBB

Very Active Member
Messages
1,065
I was pretty sure it came straight out of the public draw, can anyone verify how many of the 200 permits were taken from non res allocation vs res? You’d think this information would be somewhere, I couldn’t find it.
 

Airborne

Member
Messages
11
Expo tags do not come from the nonresident pool. This has been a rumor for years that some expo fans try to pass off as true but it’s not. Non residents still get 10% allocation. You can check the draw odds to confirm this, pretty easy. The expo tags come off the top from the total tags that a unit is allocated. If the expo did not exist these tags would go back in to the total for that unit for the draw.
 

hornkiller

Long Time Member
Messages
3,544
Expo tags do not come from the nonresident pool. This has been a rumor for years that some expo fans try to pass off as true but it’s not. Non residents still get 10% allocation. You can check the draw odds to confirm this, pretty easy. The expo tags come off the top from the total tags that a unit is allocated. If the expo did not exist these tags would go back in to the total for that unit for the draw.

How many of those tags that are taken off the top put the unit under the levels that allow a non res tag have you ever thought of that?
 

grizzly

Long Time Member
Messages
4,480
How many of those tags that are taken off the top put the unit under the levels that allow a non res tag have you ever thought of that?
Somebody could reverse-engineer it if they'd like, but I can guarantee it is not 200 from the NR pool like they keep saying. Math and the 10% NR allocation tells us that.

Lobbyists figured out long ago if they said something enough, people would believe it. That's why we are where we are with the Expo. There are still people that will say they took 200 tags from the NR pool and believe it.
 

hornkiller

Long Time Member
Messages
3,544
No its not 200 but say a unit offers 10-20 res tags thats 1-2 non res tags 1 being a bonus tag. $.f w . Takes one or 2 for the con show eliminating the bonus tag or the option to even put in for that hunt at all! Everyone is getting screwed in the deal.
 

grizzly

Long Time Member
Messages
4,480
No its not 200 but say a unit offers 10-20 res tags thats 1-2 non res tags 1 being a bonus tag. $.f w . Takes one or 2 for the con show eliminating the bonus tag or the option to even put in for that hunt at all! Everyone is getting screwed in the deal.
Yeah, there might be a few here and there that are affected but I doubt it's substantial. It would have to push it right over the threshold to affect it.

Plus, they have to take from the R first to lower that threshold to alter the NR.
 

hornkiller

Long Time Member
Messages
3,544
It's not substantial when someone goes from a really good chance at drawing a tag to possibly waiting another 10-20 years? ok whatever you say keep drinking that kool-aid sir!
 

grizzly

Long Time Member
Messages
4,480
It's not substantial when someone goes from a really good chance at drawing a tag to possibly waiting another 10-20 years? ok whatever you say keep drinking that kool-aid sir!
You misunderstand my position on Expo tags.

And by the way, they cut Resident Henry's tags for the November hunts from 32 in 2019 to 7 in 2020. They cut the NR tags from 4 to 2. A heckuva lot more Residents got pushed out of Bonus Tags then NR.

To put it all on the Expo is disingenuous. It was a much bigger decision than that regarding overall bison harvest.
 
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BBB

Very Active Member
Messages
1,065
Thanks for the responses. In many of the hunts I put in for, it took away 1 of 2 tags, which now the one tag is in the random. At this rate, I won’t draw any of those tags in my life, simply donating. It is what it is I guess.

It would be an easier pill to swallow if the quality or quantity of the hunting had gotten better in the last 10 years as is (was) the overall objective around expo-type fundraisers. Then we’d get our permits back and some opportunity.

I see other states follow suit reducing non-resident opportunities but still more kind to non-residents than Utah is.

I’ve put in this year for Utah but will need to decide if, like the expo, <1% odds are worth it as part of my app strategies. Good luck to you all on your app season.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
5,007
Good news is last week $fw pimped out 200.

This week they have 10 turkey tags they are pimping.

Its like Xmas every week
 

elkantlers

Very Active Member
Messages
2,466
What I want to know is where (and how) does WL and Moss get the premium tags that they auction off? And who benefits from the money made?


20210221_190222.jpg
 

Airborne

Member
Messages
11
You would think the guy in their add would at least smile!

ooo... look at me I’m billy bad a$$, killed a big bull cause one of the best guides in the country held my hand...now I’m gonna scowl and look super tough!!

just kidding of course—im sure the gentlemen shooter is super nice and feeds the homeless at the soup kitchen on the weekends
 
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elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
25,367
And one more thing Homer?

You Waiting till retirement To Hunt?

JUDAS!

Look at them OIL Points!

------------------------------------------------------

Let's put our points together for a le deer hunt homer!😉

Want to Put in with You Guys as well!:D
 
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gwp4me2

New Member
Messages
1
When the expo steals 200 of our tags to line their pockets that means on average 20 of those tags will be NR. The con they run is just like the stimulus checks. "We give a million to wildlife!" of course they took in 10 million. "We will give each person $1200!" Of course they are putting each person in debt by nearly $6000 but nobody talks about that.
 

Bwht4x4

Active Member
Messages
826
not really enough to matter

LE deer 15
gen deer 4
pronghorn 10
elk 11
Desert 14
rocky 13
bison 12
goat 10
I've got you beat Homer!

LE deer 24
gen deer 17
pronghorn 0 (burned them in 2019)
elk 1 (drew LE archery bull with 5 pts in 2014)
Desert 19
rocky 11
bison 12
goat 11
moose 12
 

Homer

Long Time Member
Messages
8,658
I've got you beat Homer!

LE deer 24
gen deer 17
pronghorn 0 (burned them in 2019)
elk 1 (drew LE archery bull with 5 pts in 2014)
Desert 19
rocky 11
bison 12
goat 11
moose 12
well hell ....you and I need to put in for Vernon Muzzy....lol
 

kittykiller

Member
Messages
66
Unfortunately those tags are coming at the sacrifice of deserving Utah residents. A good friend of mine just passed away with 20+ points. Pretty sad he put in all those years and never got the chance to hunt his dream area. Better burn those points boomers before it's too late.
 

deerkiller

Very Active Member
Messages
1,130
They came from you, me, them, they, theirs. They came from your kids, grandkids, parents, brothers, sisters. they came from your friends, your family and strangers. They came from everyone who lives in utah. They are stolen from us every year. For large private gain and minimal public return. A guzzler here, a seeding after a fire there. A little of this, some of that. Just enough to show their “efforts”, while squirreling away most of it to conserve and preserve private bank accounts. All in the name of wildlife and wildland conservation. They’ve lied to us since day 1 and they continue to do so. Our deer herds are in the chitter, except for their few private preserves designed for huge benefit. Our elk herds are almost as bad, again, except for a few choice areas that most peasants will never get to hunt. But their favorite check writers hunt them every year. Let’s not even get into the OIL species! But at least we’ve got our great pen raised pheasant shoot every year that they “give” to us. What a generous contribution 🙄 there’s been people get involved with $FW that jump out of that organization as fast as they could, because they couldn’t live with the corruption. A lot of money and opportunities have been stolen from the public of utah over the years. Look at what they’ve taken compared to what they’ve given. There’s a lot more take than give, especially if you look at it from an experience and memory point of view that you may (or may not) have had if they hadn’t been taking 200+ permits every year. I guarantee some of you who are in favor of it would have gotten one of those permits through the regular draw. But good thing we gave them to the celebs and non res! That’ll definitely keep the cash coming in the future
 

Tikka

Very Active Member
Messages
2,964
They came from you, me, them, they, theirs. They came from your kids, grandkids, parents, brothers, sisters. they came from your friends, your family and strangers. They came from everyone who lives in utah. They are stolen from us every year. For large private gain and minimal public return. A guzzler here, a seeding after a fire there. A little of this, some of that. Just enough to show their “efforts”, while squirreling away most of it to conserve and preserve private bank accounts. All in the name of wildlife and wildland conservation. They’ve lied to us since day 1 and they continue to do so. Our deer herds are in the chitter, except for their few private preserves designed for huge benefit. Our elk herds are almost as bad, again, except for a few choice areas that most peasants will never get to hunt. But their favorite check writers hunt them every year. Let’s not even get into the OIL species! But at least we’ve got our great pen raised pheasant shoot every year that they “give” to us. What a generous contribution 🙄 there’s been people get involved with $FW that jump out of that organization as fast as they could, because they couldn’t live with the corruption. A lot of money and opportunities have been stolen from the public of utah over the years. Look at what they’ve taken compared to what they’ve given. There’s a lot more take than give, especially if you look at it from an experience and memory point of view that you may (or may not) have had if they hadn’t been taking 200+ permits every year. I guarantee some of you who are in favor of it would have gotten one of those permits through the regular draw. But good thing we gave them to the celebs and non res! That’ll definitely keep the cash coming in the future
Welcome back killer!
 

BBB

Very Active Member
Messages
1,065
Deer killer,

I can appreciate the sentiment. Utah sure has some passionate hunters, which is great; however, this passion seems to come with the need to blame an entity. Before SFW, everyone blamed UDWR for poor management. SFW seems to be the new pin cushion.

With that, I think the UDWR has been pretty innovative through the years, always willing to make management changes to best fit what the vocal public wants. I’m not always a fan of their change but they do listen to these special interest groups, good or bad...

Personally, I’d prefer that UDWR, a public entity, handled these public tags rather than handling them to other groups, which all have their own agendas.

Through the years, I’ve lived and hunted in the west’s greatest states. Of these, Utah, by far, wants to push the limits on everything hunting. They want 200”ers but then turn around and turn a muzzleloader into another rifle season, with the added technology. They want 200”ers but throw a fit when there’s a discussion on removing trail cams during season and baiting mule deer.

there’s gnashing of teeth when mature bull elk opportunities are proposed because it’s all about the 400”ers. Utahns don’t like 10% of their tags allocated to non-residents but are the first to tell Wyoming, and other states, that their nonresident allocations (or resident opportunities) aren’t fair, when nearly all the other states provide more non-res allocation %’s than Utah does.

Utah is going to have to make some big changes to maintain a sustainable deer herd with some mature bucks, and that includes some of the hunters attitudes. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
 

deerkiller

Very Active Member
Messages
1,130
What's with a deer and elk Hwy crossing that takes them right in a CWMU.
selective placing and planning

You think it’s a coincidence they allow CWMUs to hunt through November when animals are moving on to the winter range? Now they are just funneling them right into it!
 

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