Why is the Arizona Game & Fish Commission going to ban trail cameras?

DonMartin

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The Arizona Game & Fish Commission is proposing to ban ALL trail cameras that are used for the purpose of take of wildlife in Arizona. Remember just two years ago the Commission voted to ban live action cameras, and this action was supported by many Arizona sportsmen.

Now, they are back, wanting to ban ALL cameras, including the passive ones that only proved provides history to the owner.

Three of the Commissioners, including Commissioner Kurt Davis, have made two podcasts and stated why they are in support of this ban. And after you hear them talk, see if you, like me, doesn't think this is a done deal on March 19, 2021 when they meet in Bullhead City to vote on it.

The first podcast was done with the staff of HuntinFool, Look under www.HuntinFool.com/podcast. It is episode 103. Also look at https://bloodorigins.org/podcasts-partners/. Episode 9.
 
I'm in favor of banning the cameras! Especially in Arizona since I don't live there, haha! Though I would also be in favor if they were to be banned in my state. No need however because here in Oregon we only see cougars, squirrels and windblown grass on our game cams! :)
 
Sorry Don, we ain't buying what you are selling. Most people are in favor of the ban and it's going to happen. It is long overdue and the only people that care are outfitters like yourself and A3. I know a couple outfitters that are stone cold killers and they are 100% in favor of the ban because they will shine. They are top tier outfitters already and they already kill big animals every year without running cameras. This change will prove how good they really are while other outfitters will struggle to produce big animals because they depend on cameras to find game.
 
All the outfitters that I’ve ever talked with in AZ run hundreds of trail cameras; especially if they are guiding on the Strip for mule deer.

Good to hear from you Don; you have been ominously quiet for quite some time and several folks were wondering if you were ok.
 
The Arizona Game & Fish Commission is proposing to ban ALL trail cameras that are used for the purpose of take of wildlife in Arizona. Remember just two years ago the Commission voted to ban live action cameras, and this action was supported by many Arizona sportsmen.

Now, they are back, wanting to ban ALL cameras, including the passive ones that only proved provides history to the owner.

Three of the Commissioners, including Commissioner Kurt Davis, have made two podcasts and stated why they are in support of this ban. And after you hear them talk, see if you, like me, doesn't think this is a done deal on March 19, 2021 when they meet in Bullhead City to vote on it.

The first podcast was done with the staff of HuntinFool, Look under www.HuntinFool.com/podcast. It is episode 103. Also look at https://bloodorigins.org/podcasts-partners/. Episode 9.
Its been a long time since I've posted here . Likely that my last post was regarding this same topic . I've been pushing for this Ban for 6 years when I started to recognize the trends that were as a result of Trail Camera use . Its gotten way out of control . I've been using them and will be glad to put them away when I draw my tags . Trail Cameras have taken the Hunt out of Hunting ! There will now be a Generation of Hunters not knowing how to traditionally hunt due to Trail Cameras! Like Don Martin said though , listen to the whole podcast Huntinfool has produced #103 . These 2 Commissioners are no strangers to Hunting . In fact they are both avid , passionate Hunters ! These Commissioners know that things are only going to get worse . So they are making the decisions now to assure that the decision now is to whats beneficial to wildlife on a longterm perspective !!!
 
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Its been a long time since I've posted here . Likely that my last post was regarding this same topic . I've been pushing for this Ban for 6 years when I started to recognize the trends that were as a result of Trail Camera use . Its gotten way out of control . I've been using them and will be glad to put them away when I draw my tags . Trail Cameras have taken the Hunt out of Hunting ! There will now be a Generation of Hunters not knowing how to traditionally hunt due to Trail Cameras! Like Don Martin said though , listen to the whole podcast Huntinfool has produced #103 . These 2 Commissioners are no strangers to Hunting . In fact they are both avid , passionate Hunters ! These Commissioners know that things are only going to get worse . So they are making the decisions now to assure that the decision now is to whats beneficial to wildlife on a longterm perspective !!!
Thanks for your time! I’ve loved your posts over the years!
 
As someone that puts our cameras what’s your thoughts on this?
Glad they are . I've been pushing this for 6 years ! I provided AZGFD information thats shows that 90% of the Bucks killed were as a result of Aid or Assistance via use of Trailcameras. Every year on the Arizona Strip and other Units , Hunter to Hunter conflicts are getting worse , congestion getting worse and Trailcameras have simply taken the Hunt out of Hunting ! I'll be glad to put my Trailcameras away when I draw my Tags . I am a proactive person and more importantly enjoy the family time while hunting !!!
 
Its been a long time since I've posted here . Likely that my last post was regarding this same topic . I've been pushing for this Ban for 6 years when I started to recognize the trends that were as a result of Trail Camera use . Its gotten way out of control . I've been using them and will be glad to put them away when I draw my tags . Trail Cameras have taken the Hunt out of Hunting ! There will now be a Generation of Hunters not knowing how to traditionally hunt due to Trail Cameras! Like Don Martin said though , listen to the whole podcast Huntinfool has produced #103 . These 2 Commissioners are no strangers to Hunting . In fact they are both avid , passionate Hunters ! These Commissioners know that things are only going to get worse . So they are making the decisions now to assure that the decision now is to whats beneficial to wildlife on a longterm perspective !!!
I listened to that podcast. They seemed to dodge the question on other technological advancements like long range rifles that they were asked about...

Horniac
 
I listened to that podcast. They seemed to dodge the question on other technological advancements like long range rifles that they were asked about...

Horniac
That is true. Why ? Because that's a whole different ball game sort of speak ! There emphasis is eliminating congestion to prevent Hunter to Hunter conflict and Fair Chase . There is about a 90% chance an individual wouldn't be pursuing and then harvesting an animal without the Assistance of Trailcameras. A long Range rifle is useless until that Animal has been located . It is crazy how many Guides have come out of the woodworks only to set up Trailcameras, leave them for Months without checking them or even laying foot onto the Unit again until the Hunt starts . But they bring with them a posse of Spotters , set up a perimeter within a couple mile radius area that these Bucks reside in , then comes the long range guns .
 
Sorry Don, we ain't buying what you are selling. Most people are in favor of the ban and it's going to happen. It is long overdue and the only people that care are outfitters like yourself and A3. I know a couple outfitters that are stone cold killers and they are 100% in favor of the ban because they will shine. They are top tier outfitters already and they already kill big animals every year without running cameras. This change will prove how good they really are while other outfitters will struggle to produce big animals because they depend on cameras to find game.
One of my exact points exactly !! I remember just 10 years ago we would debate who the Great Mule Deer and Great Bull Elk Outfitters were . Now when someone asks me who I would recommend them to , to Hunt the Arizona Strip , its like playing Mr Match Maker ... whats your personality like , are you a beer drinker , you like root beer , do you like to read the Scriptures at night etc etc just to match them up with someone you'd think they'd get along well with . You know what I mean ? Because every damn Outfitter or Guide is going to know and go after the same animal anyways because they all have Trailcamera pictures of the same critter . Lol
 
Sorry Don, we ain't buying what you are selling. Most people are in favor of the ban and it's going to happen. It is long overdue and the only people that care are outfitters like yourself and A3. I know a couple outfitters that are stone cold killers and they are 100% in favor of the ban because they will shine. They are top tier outfitters already and they already kill big animals every year without running cameras. This change will prove how good they really are while other outfitters will struggle to produce big animals because they depend on cameras to find game.
I've got exactly 6 cameras...lol Plus now its going to be a seasonal ban like Nevada.
 
I listened to that podcast. They seemed to dodge the question on other technological advancements like long range rifles that they were asked about...

Horniac
That was interesting huh? Especially when one Commissioner talked about shooting a bull at 80 yards!
 
Ok, so the last thing I hear is now they are looking at adopting something like the Nevada seasonal ban.

Won't be dealt with at the March meeting.
 
The Nevada trail camera regulation states that a person shall not place, maintain, or use a trail camera or similar device on public land, or private land without permission from the landowner, from August 1 to December 31 of each year, or if the camera is capable of transmitting the images or video, it shall not be used from July 1 to December 31. The regulation does provide some limited exemptions for livestock monitoring, research, and other miscellaneous uses.
This camera ban, has put the word " Hunting " back in hunting and seems to be working at saving many BIG mule deer each season,
Bruce & SilverGrand
 
Ok, so the last thing I hear is now they are looking at adopting something like the Nevada seasonal ban.

Won't be dealt with at the March meeting.

Interesting how the AZGFD stated the following information with their 5-0 vote to ban, or regulate trail cameras.
  • The Commission will hear and vote on final rulemaking at the March 19, 2021 Commission meeting
  • Any change to the current trail camera rule will not go into effect prior to January 1, 2022.
  • Once the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking is published, it will open a 30-day comment period that will run from Jan. 1, 2021 through Feb. 1, 2021. Comment can be submitted either through:
The commission stated they will hear and vote March 19th about trail cameras. I don't see the word might vote, so would the following information from the commission now be incorrect?
 
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If they do a seasonal ban it better start July 1st for all cameras like they stated and not August 1st. How are they going to know if the camera is capable of transmitting images or video? A full ban would solve the problem and hopefully they're still considering it. Don, how do you know so much about what is currently going on with the ban when we know nothing?
 
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I am 72 years old and I’ve never used a trail cam. I hunt the old fashion way and I’ve always been successful. But I put a lot of time in the field scouting every year that I get drawn. We don’t need cameras, and I hope that the ADFG bands them.
 
...wonder how the hell they would enforce it? Will game wardens (along with the ton of other work they do) now have to go check water holes, cut down cameras, chase down the owner (however they'd figure that out?), hand them a ticket?
Rules and laws, just don't know how they would enforce it....and subsequently how effective it would be.
 
when it becomes law, AZG&F will enforce this law !!! with help from law abiding hunter/scouters afield. Plenty of eyes out there, to aid law enforcement.Report to local G&F , camera & Location.
In NV , it works ... have found many Bear Box with locks sawed off and no camera & cables locks "Buzzed in Half" and laying on ground and NO CAMERA to be found. Always will be a few that believe THEY are above the law, but with fewer cameras than before ... Bruce & SilverGrand
 
...wonder how the hell they would enforce it? Will game wardens (along with the ton of other work they do) now have to go check water holes, cut down cameras, chase down the owner (however they'd figure that out?), hand them a ticket?
Rules and laws, just don't know how they would enforce it....and subsequently how effective it would be.
They'll enforce it like every other law they and every law enforcement agency is tasked with enforcing: normal patrols, undercover work, complaints, calls/tips, etc. It's not like they will all of a sudden have to go visit every water source the next day after the seasonal bans starts. Instead, as they're on patrol during the seasonal ban they'll stop by water sources they know about to inspect them for unlawful cameras. The week after they'll hit a couple more. Not a big deal!
 
I'm not saying I am for trail cameras at all. I'm just curious on how this would all go down, if it did.....and then if it would be permissible for other hunters to destroy one (vigilante style?)?

Haha, could you imagine the "hunter conflicts" that would happen if I took a rock to some guy's camera and he happens to be in the area?

Again, I would be for banning them, just interested on how it would all work effectively. Some water holes are miles off the road, which I'd be surprised if a warden would want to spend a day hiking out just to see if there are any present.
 
They'll enforce it like every other law they and every law enforcement agency is tasked with enforcing: normal patrols, undercover work, complaints, calls/tips, etc. It's not like they will all of a sudden have to go visit every water source the next day after the seasonal bans starts. Instead, as they're on patrol during the seasonal ban they'll stop by water sources they know about to inspect them for unlawful cameras. The week after they'll hit a couple more. Not a big deal!

Yeah, I guess that is a good point. Almost like the Game Thief hotline. Ooooo, maybe AZGFD could offer a reward for any cameras you point them to!?!!?!??!
 
I'm not saying I am for trail cameras at all. I'm just curious on how this would all go down, if it did.....and then if it would be permissible for other hunters to destroy one (vigilante style?)?

Haha, could you imagine the "hunter conflicts" that would happen if I took a rock to some guy's camera and he happens to be in the area?

Again, I would be for banning them, just interested on how it would all work effectively. Some water holes are miles off the road, which I'd be surprised if a warden would want to spend a day hiking out just to see if there are any present.
I can't speak for all states' wardens, but in CA it's not surprising to run into a warden 5 mi back in the wilderness on patrol. They are also known to conduct horseback patrols. With that said, the cameras in the remote areas would likely be found by other hunters, but wouldn't be surprised if a warden found them too.

I agree with you to BGb...if someone was brave enough to have a camera up during the seasonal closure and he caught someone ripping it down...it probably wouldn't go down in a good way!!! Probably best to do it Bess style and go the route of a long-distance rocky mtn tune up!
 
The G&F Department can only regulate hunters. Wildlife watchers that don't use them for hunting could still have them up whenever and where ever they wished. So, you could very well be vandalizing a person's property who is placing it 100% legally.
 
I’m against the ban 100%. Just because you get a big animal on camera doesn’t mean your gonna kill it. If the ban goes through I suspect you will actually see a higher kill success as guys will shoot the first spikes and two pointers they see because they have no data on what else is in the area. Kick back and watch the show as big things are happening to oppose the cam ban. ?
 
I’m against the ban 100%. Just because you get a big animal on camera doesn’t mean your gonna kill it. If the ban goes through I suspect you will actually see a higher kill success as guys will shoot the first spikes and two pointers they see because they have no data on what else is in the area. Kick back and watch the show as big things are happening to oppose the cam ban.
You kind of contradict yourself by saying that trail cams dont help and then saying that they do by giving you data of the animals in the area. I'm 100 percent for the ban.
 
G&F now has two separate rule making proposals they are going to choose from. The first is the total ban and then at the Feb. meeting they opened the 2nd rule making proposal which is a camera season from Feb 1 to June 30. They are going to be having a comment period soon for people to write in. They said after the comment period they would choose one of the two rule making proposals or none at all. I watched the last meeting and I got the feeling they were more open to a season and not a total ban.

I blame nobody but the guides, their paid posse and social media glory seekers for this entire mess. Some people need their egos stroked I guess?
 
G&F now has two separate rule making proposals they are going to choose from. The first is the total ban and then at the Feb. meeting they opened the 2nd rule making proposal which is a camera season from Feb 1 to June 30. They are going to be having a comment period soon for people to write in. They said after the comment period they would choose one of the two rule making proposals or none at all. I watched the last meeting and I got the feeling they were more open to a season and not a total ban.

I blame nobody but the guides, their paid posse and social media glory seekers for this entire mess. Some people need their egos stroked I guess?
Guides are the biggest problem here. Unfortunately, Arizona has big elk, big mule deer and 6 figure prices on Commissioner and Auction tags. The guides can’t keep from tripping over themselves trying to get the next trophy on Facebook or Instagram to promote their business. Look how many were in that ridiculous kill photo with the JJ elk.

Several years ago, I was up in 13A helping out my cousin. Heading out early one morning minding our own business, we literally got run off the road by a big time guide up there. He came up on us fast, riding our azz with his brights on. His intentions were clear. We eventually found a safe place to pull over and just let him go. He blew by us, throwing rocks and dust onto the truck. Wish I remember the name plastered all over his back window. We turned around and went another direction. My cousin ended killing a nice buck later, but that event left a very bad taste in my mouth with regards to guides. I have no patience for them anymore. They’ve ruined everything here in Arizona.
 
Found 4 cams somewhere in Sullivan Draw yesterday on public land next to a trick tank. Can I remove them?
 
GAME AND FISH NEWS
March 12, 2021
Arizona Game and Fish Department​
Commission proposes alternative rule amendment to regulate use of trail cameras
Public comment period on new proposed rule runs March 11 through April 11
PHOENIX — The Arizona Game and Fish Commission is seeking public comment on an alternative proposal to amend rules within Article 3, Taking and Handling of Wildlife, to regulate the use of trail cameras for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife.

The commission in December 2020 originally voted to open rulemaking with proposed language that would prohibit the use of trail cameras for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife. That rulemaking went through a public comment period in January.

In response to internal and external discussions and comments related to the December proposal, the commission, at its February 2021 meeting, voted 5-0 to open a separate rulemaking with proposed language that, if approved, would:

  • Prohibit the use of trail cameras for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife within ¼ mile of a developed water source.

  • Allow the use of trail cameras to aid in the take of wildlife from February 1 through June 30 as long as the camera is not placed within ¼ mile of a developed water source.

This new proposed language presented in February does not replace the December proposed rule, but provides the commission with options to consider at the conclusion of both rulemaking processes.

View UPDATED INFORMATION about the two rule proposals (the document also includes an overview of comments received related to the December proposed rule - see second bullet down). A link to the document is also posted at https://www.azgfd.com/Agency/Commission/commissioncorner/.

Public comments related to the February rulemaking proposal are being accepted by email at [email protected] from March 11 through April 11, 2021.

The final rulemaking for the December proposal will not be heard at the March 19 commission meeting as previously anticipated. The final rulemaking for both proposals will be heard at the June 11 commission meeting in Payson. At that meeting, the commission can approve either of the two final rules or terminate rulemaking altogether. Any change to the current trail camera rule will not go into effect prior to Jan. 1, 2022.

To view proposed rule amendments, track the progress of rules, view the regulatory agenda and all previous Five-Year Review Reports, and to learn about any other agency rulemaking matters, visit https://www.azgfd.com/agency/rulemaking/.​
 
So they come up with new amendments to cover there ass because they know the public vote total went against what they originally proposed? Unreal. Next thing you know they will be telling everyone what power scope to use for hunting. What power optics is max etc.
 
I listened to their podcast and they talk about how it is not a popularity contest. If people think the board is going to make their decision based on what get the most "votes" they are wrong. Being in a position of leadership is not always easy or popular. Sometimes tough decisions have to be made and I for one, appreciate people in these roles who can think objectively and without emotion.
 
So they come up with new amendments to cover there ass because they know the public vote total went against what they originally proposed? Unreal. Next thing you know they will be telling everyone what power scope to use for hunting. What power optics is max etc.
Actually the vote was 1274 in favor of a ban or regulation to trail cams, and only 1200 opposed the ban.
 
Actually the vote was 1274 in favor of a ban or regulation to trail cams, and only 1200 opposed the ban.

E164B65C-AE67-481E-9057-99549F7BE035.png
 
Since when did public comments have any binding effect?
Since this is the second time trail cam bans have been in front of the commission and since the commission originally voted for a 5-0 total ban and now they are looking at a possible season with water placement restrictions I would say they are at least listening to the public before their final decision.
 
Since this is the second time trail cam bans have been in front of the commission and since the commission originally voted for a 5-0 total ban and now they are looking at a possible season with water placement restrictions I would say they are at least listening to the public before their final decision.
Its good they listen, but democracy is a terrible way to manage wildlife.
 
Its good they listen, but democracy is a terrible way to manage wildlife.
They don't ask for public opinion much when it comes to the actual management of wildlife, they supposedly use sound science. The trail cam ban has more to do with the management of people not wildlife.
 
Group of unified sportsmen = guides
A tidal wave of opposition? They better redo their math.

Im going to go on a limb here, but guaranteed 9/10 hunters/outdoorsmen could care less or even have this on their radar. What you’re seeing are the same 50-75 guys posting on every hunting forum giving the impression that everyone is on board with the legal argument presented above.

When historically, having only 5-7 hunters show up at any given Commission meeting or to any meeting held at the various Regional offices, to say a ”tidal wave of opposition” is a stretch. If I remember, about 2400 comments were received. Hardly a representation of the 300,000(?) license holders in the state.
 
Remember that the Arizona Game and Fish is taking public comments about the two new additional proposals sent out in an email March 12th. Just email [email protected] to comment. They are accepting comments between March 11th and April 11th about the support for a trail cam ban, and these two new additional proposals. The first additional proposal is no trail cameras within a quarter mile of a water source. The second proposal is a combination of two rules. It is a trail camera season with cameras only allowed between February 1st and June 30th, as long as the trail camera isn't placed within a quarter mile of a water source.
 
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Sorry for long post, but just had to share:

When I first heard about this, I was dismayed about the fact that the government was going to add “another” law to the millions of laws everyone must bow to. I still kinda feel that way, but….

I had a 13B Deer permit 8 years ago. Dream hunt right? I was working a killer job so was only able to find 8 days of scouting time plus full hunt to dedicate to it. Figured that would be enough- or at least I had to make it work. When I was scouting, I noticed every waterhole I went to (20 or so?) had multiple game cameras on it. This is some of the most remote country in the US. I was shocked! I knew there were only 60 or so permits plus the bow hunters. I figured these were bow hunters. I knew nothing of the guide/runners approach at this point. When the hunt came, I was in for a real shock. My dream hunt in this pristine remote country turned into a constant road jam with aggressive guides- who literally were posting signs on roads a mile ahead of some catchment saying “Hunter on Stand” in an attempt to own the spot.

Now some might say I could have hired a guide too. True. But for me, that isn’t hunting. Hell- the guides even refer to the tag owners as “shooters”. They put these folks in lawn chairs with sun cover and coolers to sit out their time! I really enjoy the sport, not just the trigger pull. But that once in a lifetime hunt was severely dampened by finding out I wasn’t competing against the deer- I was competing against technology and aggressive guide tactics.

With that said- I get that guides are not all the same, and I get that hunters who use guides have very good reasons for it. But I do now believe that reducing the technology used to give guides such an incredible edge is probably good for the sport.

Lastly- to AZ8s point- I do agree that 90% of hunters don’t care much about this. Before I had that hunt, I wouldn't have cared either. 90% of hunters just go to popular units and are simply competing with other hunters and the game animals. But if they did get the chance to do that once in a lifetime hunt, they probably would feel differently.
 
Sorry for long post, but just had to share:

When I first heard about this, I was dismayed about the fact that the government was going to add “another” law to the millions of laws everyone must bow to. I still kinda feel that way, but….

I had a 13B Deer permit 8 years ago. Dream hunt right? I was working a killer job so was only able to find 8 days of scouting time plus full hunt to dedicate to it. Figured that would be enough- or at least I had to make it work. When I was scouting, I noticed every waterhole I went to (20 or so?) had multiple game cameras on it. This is some of the most remote country in the US. I was shocked! I knew there were only 60 or so permits plus the bow hunters. I figured these were bow hunters. I knew nothing of the guide/runners approach at this point. When the hunt came, I was in for a real shock. My dream hunt in this pristine remote country turned into a constant road jam with aggressive guides- who literally were posting signs on roads a mile ahead of some catchment saying “Hunter on Stand” in an attempt to own the spot.

Now some might say I could have hired a guide too. True. But for me, that isn’t hunting. Hell- the guides even refer to the tag owners as “shooters”. They put these folks in lawn chairs with sun cover and coolers to sit out their time! I really enjoy the sport, not just the trigger pull. But that once in a lifetime hunt was severely dampened by finding out I wasn’t competing against the deer- I was competing against technology and aggressive guide tactics.

With that said- I get that guides are not all the same, and I get that hunters who use guides have very good reasons for it. But I do now believe that reducing the technology used to give guides such an incredible edge is probably good for the sport.

Lastly- to AZ8s point- I do agree that 90% of hunters don’t care much about this. Before I had that hunt, I wouldn't have cared either. 90% of hunters just go to popular units and are simply competing with other hunters and the game animals. But if they did get the chance to do that once in a lifetime hunt, they probably would feel differently.
I've had similar experiences in 13b that you had with guides blocking roads with two side by sides.
 
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One of the moderators removed the post! I am good with that. I have done alot homework on this subject for 3 1/2 months . We also have alot of people working on this issue . I just dont understand people talking about something they have no clue on.
 
Literally anyone that disagrees with you "doesn't have a clue what they're talking about" and "drinks the koolaid". You have a lot of people wasting time on the issue and you're not going to tell the governor or the commission they can't do something that the legislature gives them the power to do. All this noise and tough guy stance is going to get you nowhere.
 
The trail cam bill has nothing to do with managing people, it has to do with a lot of bad experiences, a lot of a holes, the good guides that I know would like to see them gone. It’s not that bad you could pre season scout and then bring in your football team of spotters. Trash in the Forest!
 

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