Why is the Arizona Game & Fish Commission going to ban trail cameras.

DonMartin

Very Active Member
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2,127
The Arizona Game & Fish Commission is proposing to ban ALL trail cameras in Arizona. Listen to these podcasts and here what they say.

Very interesting to say the least. And when you are finished, do you think these three Commissioners have already ,made up their minds on how they are going to vote?

Go to www.Huntinfool.com/podcast and look for episode 103.

Then go to https://bloodorigins.org/podcasts-partners/. and listen to this one. Pay close attention to the last question the host- Robbie- ask the Commissioners. Then remember what they answered....

Then see if you think as I do, that on March 19, 2021 in Bullhead City this is going to pass, probably by a unanimous vote.
 

Sallaberry

Active Member
Messages
349
Well it’s only going to benefit guides at this point. I’m not a fan of trail cams but they do benefit the average joe that can’t watch 7 days a week. I was a fan of Nevada banning trail cams during hunting season. It’s perfectly clear it’s not hunter’s wanting the cams gone as much as guides wanting cams out of there spots. Like I said hate them but they help level the playing field with guides.
 

bonepicker

Very Active Member
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1,099
Well it’s only going to benefit guides at this point. I’m not a fan of trail cams but they do benefit the average joe that can’t watch 7 days a week. I was a fan of Nevada banning trail cams during hunting season. It’s perfectly clear it’s not hunter’s wanting the cams gone as much as guides wanting cams out of there spots. Like I said hate them but they help level the playing field with guides.
Hmm, this is a good point that I hadn't thought about! Though I wish there was a way to limit their use somehow, a few are fine but 10 along the same trail or by the same waterhole just starts to get out of control.
 

DH56

Active Member
Messages
268
There is a point where technology doesn't help the hunting experience. Trail cameras with cell capability that send pictures as they are taken should have never been approved in any state. Daniel Boone did just fine the old fashioned way. If it affects the overall hunting experience for many in a negative way, then it's no good.
 

money

Active Member
Messages
262
it's going to pass and i'm glad that it will. Now if they'd only get rid of Governors tags we'd really be on the right track. I know they bring in money but find a different way to raise money. I think Governors tags are ruining the culture of hunting.
 

OutdoorWriter

Very Active Member
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2,940
it's going to pass and i'm glad that it will. Now if they'd only get rid of Governors tags we'd really be on the right track. I know they bring in money but find a different way to raise money. I think Governors tags are ruining the culture of hunting.
Nah. It got ruined many years ago when some guys discovered how to use a tape measure to make a competition out of hunting. And then the WWW came along. ;)
 

money

Active Member
Messages
262
Nah. It got ruined many years ago when some guys discovered how to use a tape measure to make a competition out of hunting. And then the WWW came along. ;)
Well i won't argue with you on that. I'll continue to hunt and do my best to conserve and promote my way of life, but it is definitely sad what it is becoming/has become.
 

bonepicker

Very Active Member
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1,099
True! When my kids got old enough to hunt and I started taking them with me a few years ago I had a shift in perspective. I moved from wanting to kill another trophy buck (though that would still be great) to just wanting to have a good time with my kids. So I have taken my smallest buck ever, put in for cow tags and eaten tag soup several times but these years watching my kids enjoy hunting and have success have been the most fun years I have had in my hunting career.
I would be great if we could turn back the clock and hunt with that old time perspective it would be helpful all around. But the drive for "likes" and approval is out of control, I don't think we can go back.
 

Skykarp

Member
Messages
26
It is amazing to me to see the hunting community continually rip itself apart from the inside out. It does not matter the issue there will always be 2-4 sides to the same fight. It is especially saddening due to the fact that recruitment to the sport has a HIGH barrier of entry. The fact of the matter is the population is growing and the hunting community is stagnant at best.

This camera ban while maybe doing some short term good in perception won't solve much. In fact just like most gun laws it will only hurt the honest people.

I want to know where everyone thinks technology should stop or what does or doesn't impact " fair chase" I am sorry to say but to those who claim its not in the spirit of the sport, lazy ,ect or fair chase. You helped bring this on by buying better optics, rifles, bullets , watching youtube, listening to podcasts and every other piece of gear or tech that gives you an advantage. The below are all new pieces of tech or changes that all have impacted the sport. Should there be restrictions on all of it?

Cell Phones
Google Earth
Gohunt
Toprut
Huntinfool
Better BC bullets
Better Glass
Bluetooth Optics
Faster Bows
YouTube
Cameras
Ect

Also should AZ limit the number of people that can be in the forest based off of the number of tags?

I also think people need to consider how it actually helps age class in premium units even if it is disgusting to see the "Camera Tree" I would bet if you get a hold of the data after they ban them you will see the age class of deer being shot start to drop.


For me personally if it means the one week I get to hunt a year is more efficient and I have a better chance to take an animal. I am going to do it. Unfortunately not everyone has the luxury to scout every weekend or multiple locations a week. If I can cross off areas or zero in on an area I am not going to run from it.

To me if you want to hunt as a purist or don't agree with the way the sport is going its your choice to use or not use the tools available. Is it my cup of tea to shoot an elk at 800 yards? or Muley at 80 yards .No but if you put the time, money, and practice who am I to tell you that your not in the "spirit" of hunting or its not fair chase.

All in all I would rather see them make make a trail cam season. We will see what happens but one thing is sure. The hunting community will continue to play the holier than thou card and pick each other apart.
 

hawkbill

Very Active Member
Messages
1,189
I also disagree with you skykarp that hunting is stagnant. It is at a all time high and is growing,There are a lot more hunters in the field today than there were five years ago. Opportunity hunting at its finest is the new norm. I don’t care how anyone else hunts, but don’t leave your trash and plastic crap in the forest, that also includes these camps that are now put up three months in advance to hold a camping spot for hunting season.
 

OutdoorWriter

Very Active Member
Messages
2,940
I also disagree with you skykarp that hunting is stagnant. It is at a all time high and is growing,There are a lot more hunters in the field today than there were five years ago.
The following totals by year are directly from the USFWS reports that is used to apportion Pittman-Robison funds to the states. It is the grand total of hunting licenses for all 50 states. And they sure don't appear very kinetic. ;)

2020 - 15,158,443
2019 - 15,544,849
2018 - 15,620,578
2017 - 15,486,123
2016 - 15,413,638
 

Joe2Kool

Very Active Member
Messages
1,589
The following totals by year are directly from the USFWS reports that is used to apportion Pittman-Robison funds to the states. It is the grand total of hunting licenses for all 50 states. And they sure don't appear very kinetic. ;)

2020 - 15,158,443
2019 - 15,544,849
2018 - 15,620,578
2017 - 15,486,123
2016 - 15,413,638
Are lifetime licenses and point only licenses included in these totals? It would seem to me as if the long-term lifetime licenses are hard to quantify, but annual point-only would be easy.
 

huntazido

Active Member
Messages
619
I always felt the best compromise was a camera season. That way everyone, even non-hunting public had to abide by the law. The way this rule is going to go down now is that you will still see cameras in the woods but people will say they are not for "taking" or "aiding" in the take of wildlife. Too many loop holes and too hard to prove. Lots of G&F money and man power in each case.

The guides and outfitters are 99.99% to blame for this entire issue. They are so consumed by greed, internet fame and their egos they have gone and ruined it for everyone. I would be happier if they banned guides instead of the cameras.
 

Skykarp

Member
Messages
26
I agree that the numbers look good and probably read good in a headline. The problem is if you dig into them historically it paints a drastically different picture. If you look at the numbers for 2004 vs today we have gained a grand total 192,000 hunting license sales in 16 years. That equates to 12,000 new hunters a year. So is it really that good?

My point was never to make this a numbers thread, It was the show that the sport is not growing by leaps and bounds.

I personally do not want to see tools taken away that can help keep someone excited about the sport or limit their ability to help them take an animal.

I was lucky enough to have friends and family help and show me what I was doing wrong when it came to deer. There are a lot of people that don't. Those are the people that I worry these decisions hurt most.

I have a feeling the decision is already made and the public comment period is going to be for show. It feels like they are going to put in a season and play it off as a compromise .
 

SlowElk

Active Member
Messages
263
With archery, muzzleloader, , junior, and rifle seasons, there's a hunt going on from August though the end of May the following year. So camera season would be June through July???
 

Horniac

Active Member
Messages
954
I would be interested in the license numbers for the western big game states as opposed to the entire country. Applications appear to be greatly increasing for states with elk and deer as opposed to declining IMO...

Horniac
 

PLK

Active Member
Messages
249
What about states like Colorado, Idaho and Arizona that require non-residents to purchase hunting licenses just to be eligible to apply for limited quota tags. This wasn’t always the case and only recently changed in Colorado. This requirement should have led to an overall increase in hunting licenses sold.
 

Bluehair

Very Active Member
Messages
2,560
What about states like Colorado, Idaho and Arizona that require non-residents to purchase hunting licenses just to be eligible to apply for limited quota tags. This wasn’t always the case and only recently changed in Colorado. This requirement should have led to an overall increase in hunting licenses sold.
Those numbers stand a very good chance of being wildly inaccurate. Just thinking of myself, I usually have like 4 licenses in CO. And then there are the other states.

I can‘t imagine USFWS can straighten that out.
 

PLK

Active Member
Messages
249
Bluehair,
Do you usually have 4 licenses or 1 license and 4 tags? I really don’t know how these counts are tallied. I guess if Wyoming was smart, they would start a system similar to CO and AZ, where the NR is forced to buy a non refundable license prior to the draw. This would generate additional revenue and perhaps make more money available to Wyoming from the Pittman-Robertson Funds.
 

Bluehair

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2,560
In CO you have a “license” for each species, plus a license for small game and another for fishies. There is a combo for these two.

As you know, you don’t need a license in AZ unless you want a point. Or thats the way I remember it. Maybe that was CO, I can’t remember.

It starts to become a little more than just mashing some spreadsheet columns together. At least the way I see it.
 

hawkbill

Very Active Member
Messages
1,189
We have a lot more hunters in Idaho, and we will have more this year like 10,000 more resident and I call BS on the numbers. There is no way to keep track with all the over lapping tags, depredation tags, x tags,Double x tags, land owner tags, controlled hunts and over the counter hunts. Come one come all
 

azhunteraz

Member
Messages
20
The Arizona Game & Fish Commission is proposing to ban ALL trail cameras in Arizona. Listen to these podcasts and here what they say.

Very interesting to say the least. And when you are finished, do you think these three Commissioners have already ,made up their minds on how they are going to vote?

Go to www.Huntinfool.com/podcast and look for episode 103.

Then go to https://bloodorigins.org/podcasts-partners/. and listen to this one. Pay close attention to the last question the host- Robbie- ask the Commissioners. Then remember what they answered....

Then see if you think as I do, that on March 19, 2021 in Bullhead City this is going to pass, probably by a unanimous vote.
Fake news, Don. They are not proposing banning "ALL" trail cameras in Arizona.
 

OutdoorWriter

Very Active Member
Messages
2,940
I would be interested in the license numbers for the western big game states as opposed to the entire country. Applications appear to be greatly increasing for states with elk and deer as opposed to declining IMO...

Horniac
They are readily available on the USFWS site in the same reports I used for the overall # of licenses. Just consider, however, that a single guy can account for more than one license sold if he is applying in states where one is needed to apply for a permit, i.e. Arizona. And of course, many of those applying do not even live in a western state.
 

OutdoorWriter

Very Active Member
Messages
2,940
Bluehair,
Do you usually have 4 licenses or 1 license and 4 tags? I really don’t know how these counts are tallied. I guess if Wyoming was smart, they would start a system similar to CO and AZ, where the NR is forced to buy a non refundable license prior to the draw. This would generate additional revenue and perhaps make more money available to Wyoming from the Pittman-Robertson Funds.
Bingo. For purposes of the P-R distribution, the grand total of licensed hunters is used by the USFWS, and it does include those with lifetime licenses.
 

Bluehair

Very Active Member
Messages
2,560
IN AZ, a license is required just to apply, regardless if it's for a hunt or a BP.
As I recall, Not to many years ago you could purchase your license only if you were successful In the draw. It was later changed to require a license to earn a preference point. This was for non-residents.

It didn’t really impact me as I always buy a license anyway On the hopes that there will be quail again someday. :)
 

AZNATIVE98

Member
Messages
37
As I recall, Not to many years ago you could purchase your license only if you were successful In the draw. It was later changed to require a license to earn a preference point. This was for non-residents.

It didn’t really impact me as I always buy a license anyway On the hopes that there will be quail again someday. :)
Your someday is this year
 

OutdoorWriter

Very Active Member
Messages
2,940
As I recall, Not to many years ago you could purchase your license only if you were successful In the draw. It was later changed to require a license to earn a preference point. This was for non-residents.

It didn’t really impact me as I always buy a license anyway On the hopes that there will be quail again someday. :)
Yup. It was that way a couple years ago. As for the quail, this season has been a boomer.
 

money

Active Member
Messages
262
No f’n way I’m setting foot in Az right now. Everyone I know down there has the ‘rona. :oops:
I know at least 50 people in Arizona (my brother-in-law and his wife currently) who have had it and not a single one was serious or said it was a big deal at all. You've got a bigger chance of an illegal alien running a red light in phoenix and killing you than you do of dying from the Rona.
 

Slightlysober

Very Active Member
Messages
1,578
I know at least 50 people in Arizona (my brother-in-law and his wife currently) who have had it and not a single one was serious or said it was a big deal at all. You've got a bigger chance of an illegal alien running a red light in phoenix and killing you than you do of dying from the Rona.
Racist much?
 

Bluehair

Very Active Member
Messages
2,560
It’s probably statistically correct.

I hear you.....my 80 yo mother walked it off. If I catch it and get sick, I will be mocked mercilessly. Can’t take the risk.
 

money

Active Member
Messages
262
Racist much?
When something is factual it isn't racist. Plus illegal Alien is not a race nor does it mean any one race. Bluehair was talking about Arizona and it happens a lot in the Phoenix/Mesa Metro area which is why I used the analogy I did. And my point was he doesn't need to worry about Corona Virus and should just go hunt like he wants to. You can jump to your own conclusions about what I meant or the kind of person I may be. But that doesn't change the fact that you missed the point of my comment and have no idea who I am or what I believe.
 

Slightlysober

Very Active Member
Messages
1,578
When something is factual it isn't racist. Plus illegal Alien is not a race nor does it mean any one race. Bluehair was talking about Arizona and it happens a lot in the Phoenix/Mesa Metro area which is why I used the analogy I did. And my point was he doesn't need to worry about Corona Virus and should just go hunt like he wants to. You can jump to your own conclusions about what I meant or the kind of person I may be. But that doesn't change the fact that you missed the point of my comment and have no idea who I am or what I believe.
Riiiiight
 

Bluehair

Very Active Member
Messages
2,560
When something is factual it isn't racist. Plus illegal Alien is not a race nor does it mean any one race. Bluehair was talking about Arizona and it happens a lot in the Phoenix/Mesa Metro area which is why I used the analogy I did. And my point was he doesn't need to worry about Corona Virus and should just go hunt like he wants to. You can jump to your own conclusions about what I meant or the kind of person I may be. But that doesn't change the fact that you missed the point of my comment and have no idea who I am or what I believe.
There is simply no way I could avoid my relatives. And they’re all crazy, so I was a quail conservationist this year. Glad to hear they rebounded a little this year.......been a long time since the good old days.
 

money

Active Member
Messages
262
There is simply no way I could avoid my relatives. And they’re all crazy, so I was a quail conservationist this year. Glad to hear they rebounded a little this year.......been a long time since the good old days.
I get it! And crazy family is the best kind of family!
 

OutdoorWriter

Very Active Member
Messages
2,940
Logo
GAME AND FISH NEWS
Jan. 28, 2021
Arizona Game and Fish Department​
Comment period on proposed rule amendment to regulate the use of trail cameras ends Feb. 1
PHOENIX — Constituents are reminded that the comment period for the Arizona Game and Fish Commission proposal to amend rules within Article 3, Taking and Handling of Wildlife, to regulate the use of trail cameras for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife, ends Monday, Feb. 1.

Public comments about the proposed rulemaking can be submitted through Feb. 1, 2021, via either:
  • Email: rulemaking@azgfd.gov
  • U.S. Mail: Arizona Game and Fish Department, Attn: Celeste Cook, Rules and Policy Manager, 5000 W. Carefree Hwy., Phoenix, AZ 85086.

More information about the proposed rule is HERE and also posted at https://www.azgfd.com/Agency/Commission/commissioncorner/.

The final rule will be presented to the five-member commission for consideration at the March 19, 2021 commission meeting.

To track the progress of this rule, view the regulatory agenda and all previous Five-Year Review Reports, and to learn about any other agency rulemaking matters, visit https://www.azgfd.com/agency/rulemaking/.​
 

OutdoorWriter

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2,940
Trail cameras: Information on proposed rulemaking to prohibit their use for the take of wildlife

● At its Dec. 4, 2020 meeting, the Arizona Game and Fish Commission voted unanimously (5-0) to open the proposed rulemaking and begin the public process for potential future regulation of passive trail/game cameras used for the take of wildlife. Live action cameras were previously banned for the take of wildlife in 2018. [R12-4-303(A)(5)]

● The proposed language forwarded for comment by the Commission would simply treat both live action and passive trail/game cameras the same by banning trail/game cameras for the use of take.

● The public process includes an opportunity for the public to comment. Comments are encouraged and will be accepted by email at rulemaking@azgfd.gov from Jan. 1, 2021 through Feb. 1, 2021. See last page for other methods of submitting comment.

● The proposed language reads: “A person shall not use a trail camera, or images from a trail camera, for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife, or locating wildlife for the purpose of taking or aiding in the take of wildlife.”

● If approved, trail cameras used for research, general photography, cattle operations or any other reason other than the take of wildlife would remain legal.

● “Take” means pursuing, shooting, hunting, fishing, trapping, killing, capturing, snaring or netting wildlife or placing or using any net or other device or trap in a manner that may result in capturing or killing wildlife.

● “Trail camera” means an unmanned device used to capture images, video, or location data of wildlife.

● The Commission is considering regulating trail cameras as a result of public concerns:

○ Concerns over the use of trail cameras as it relates to Fair Chase. Commission Policy on Fair Chase includes: “…new or evolving technologies and practices that provide hunters or anglers with an improper or unfair advantage in the pursuit and taking of wildlife, or may create a public perception of an improper or unfair advantage…” This applies to areas where water is primarily point source water and game cannot escape detection.

○ Concerns that the use of trail cameras has become an increasing source of conflict between and amongst hunters, including the sense of ownership over a water source and hunting area.

○ Concerns that frequent visits to set/check trail cameras are creating a significant disturbance to wildlife during extended dry periods of the year.

○ Concerns among some livestock operators that frequent visits to set/check trail cameras are negatively affecting livestock operations.

○ Concerns over the potential biological effects of setting/checking trail cameras on point source waters, especially during the ongoing drought.

○ Concerns stemming from photos being taken of other people in the field by trail cameras.

○ Complaints about the high numbers of trail cameras on the landscape and water sources, and concerns over the high number of trail cameras that may be on the landscape in the future as the population in Arizona continues to grow rapidly, technology continues to improve, prices go down, and availability increases.

○ Complaints about damage to and theft of trail cameras.

● There is now potential monetization of game cameras to include services to place, monitor, check and sell camera images. If those services increase, the numbers of cameras and their use for take could dramatically increase.

● Public concerns about trail cameras have also been raised with the State Legislature. Legislation has previously been introduced that has so far not advanced because the Commission maintains the authority to examine this issue through rulemaking. At the request of the Commission, it was pulled.

● The Commission and Department used the research and recommendations presented by the 2018 Article 3 Rule Review Team to develop the proposed language regulating the use of trail cameras. Alternatives considered in 2018 included:

○ No action or no restrictions on use.

○ Prohibit live-action cameras (currently in effect).

○ ¼ mile restriction around water sources.

○ Species specific (e.g. prohibit for take of deer and elk, big game).

○ Specific units or zones (North/South).

○ Camera registration and label system.

○ Camera season (open and closed dates).

○ Complete ban on use (live-action and passive cameras)

● The Commission will hear and vote on final rulemaking at the March 19, 2021 Commission meeting.

● Any change to the current trail camera rule will not go into effect prior to January 1, 2022.

● See the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking language (also posted at https://www.azgfd.com/Agency/Rulemaking/ (scroll down to Article 3 Taking and Handling of Wildlife Notice of Proposed Rulemaking)

● Once the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking is published, it will open a comment period that will run from Jan. 1, 2021 through Feb. 1, 2021. Comment can be submitted through: Email : rulemaking@azgfd.gov U.S. Mail: Arizona Game and Fish Department, Attn.: Celeste Cook, Rules and Policy Manager, 5000 W. Carefree Hwy., Phoenix, Arizona 85086.
 

sagebrush

Very Active Member
Messages
1,513
The G&F Commission knows you are all mindless idiots that have no right to self determination. They are way more intelligent, know what is best for you and will impose their opinions on you. And that is all this proposal is based on, opinion. The Commission has not asked for any study related to the "impact" on wildlife or cattle operations. They just "feel" that something is not right about it. I just hope they don't ban some aspect of hunting YOU like because it doesn't feel good to them. You may all return to your safe spaces now.
 

BeDawg

Active Member
Messages
472
Impose a ban on trail cameras, long range rifles and long range muzzles in the name sake of decreasing harvest success. This will allow for an increase in tags = increased participation and money for habitat/problems like predator removal.
 

money

Active Member
Messages
262
Nobody runs cameras to see how old the animals are. They run them to find something big regardless of it's age. Hunting has become all about the size of the animal no matter the age of the animal. I would imagine more older animals will make it through the hunts when less cameras are around. Younger animals tend to make more mistakes than older age class animals. Most outfitters don't care how old the animals is, they care how big it is and how it will look on their facebook page. The ban is going to happen.
 

BOHNTR

Moderator
Messages
4,081
If they are banned, I believe you will see an increase in older aged class animals over time. I enjoy a few cameras like most, but not at the expense of SOME outfitters, guides, and wanna be guide’s abuse by making a ‘hit list’ of critters they’ve named and send posses after to sit on. Take away that technology and the success outfitters/guides have will once again be earned by glassing and boot leather and knowledge of the area. JMO.
 
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elkchaserreturns

Active Member
Messages
244
If they are banned, I believe you will see an increase in older aged class animals over time. I enjoy a few cameras like most, but not at the expense of SOME outfitters, guides, and wanna be guide’s abuse by making a ‘hit list’ of critters they’ve named and send posses after to sit on. Take away that technology and the success outfitters/guides have will once again be earned by glassing and boot leather and knowledge of the area. JMO.
To be honest, I have been mostly on the fence with the whole trail camera issue. They just rub me wrong but, dang it, they sure can provide some useful info, , , , , then last years archery elk hunt happened.
3-10 cameras on every water source.
People all over the place.
It wasn't a hunt, it was a circus!
I fully support banning the damn things. It has gotten out of hand and WE need to dial it back a bit. Drones, trail cameras, Rifles & optics that will reach out to 1000 yards, bows that are accurate out to 100 yards, quads, side X sides, etc., etc.,, , , , enough!
I realize that I am officially an "Old Fart" and all this technology is gonna be the end of the world! (Sarcasm intended!)

Elkchaser
 

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