WY task force NR fee increase

Joe2Kool

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Haven't bought a special deer in a while, but isn't that about double what it has been in recent years?
 

SS!

Long Time Member
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6,681
About a 55% increase for NR special elk. Damn. Glad I'm a resident. I think that they're leaving the "regular" NR licenses alone though. Catering to the rich NR for the outfitters.
Someone paying 1950 for an elk tag makes them rich huh?
 

Iowan

Active Member
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454
And we will all wait in line to pay it. I would rather pay more to the game and fish than have to hire an outfitter. No problem with outfitters I just don't want to be forced to use one to access a pool of tags. They should provide another option for $2,500 to apply in the wilderness without a guide. They can use the extra money to haul my body out (because it so dangerous) or maybe one of the non-resident hikers will grab it.
 

Cahunter805

Long Time Member
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Hope you NR's have a thick wallet.

Recommendation just passed the task force to increase NR special elk to $1950 and special deer/pronghorn to $1200.
Buzz
Just curious who was pushing this one? Sy couldn’t get a dedicated pool for his clients so this was his next approach! WYOGA could care less about hunters and the animals and all about making $$$!
 
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BuzzH

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Buzz
Just curious who was pushing this one? Sy couldn’t get a dedicated pool for his clients so this was his next approach! WYOGA could care less about hunters and the animals and all about making $$$!
Yep, 109% outfitter driven and Lee Livingston made the comment this would only make it better for outfitters for a couple years. After that he said we will have to do more to assure clients.

They aren't going to stop pushing, they flat don't care about anyone but themselves. The only reason they care about their clients is because the clients pay them. They don't care about wildlife, they don't care about diy nr hunters, they don't care about resident hunters, don't care about the GF, it's all about making money, period.

Their actions and words prove it...in fairness, they don't hide it either.
 

Iowan

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454
As long as the money is used for habitat improvement, game law enforcement, land purchases, etc. the tags should be sold for the most money possible using the current allocation and purchase methods. We should all be willing to fund these types of items for present and future wildlife conservation. I think the auction tags go too far, but as a non-resident I have no problem with the increase. It might have an interesting impact on some of the low to mid quality tags but it will not impact the upper half of the tags at all.
 

HikeHunt61

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645
Is the NR fee increase a done deal or is there another step after the task force?
OMG Phantom! How DARE you ask a question that might be answered by reading just a few 100 posts (on other threads) or by being directly on the task force itself! Shame be upon you sir. 100 demerits!

(Pretty sure the task force makes recommendations, they may or may not be acted upon- but considering the process it seems like a good chance it will happen)
 

tracker12

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1,410
Time to write your legislature and make sure your home State reciprocates and charges WY residents the same price when they come to your state.
 

tracker12

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As long as the money is used for habitat improvement, game law enforcement, land purchases, etc. the tags should be sold for the most money possible using the current allocation and purchase methods. We should all be willing to fund these types of items for present and future wildlife conservation. I think the auction tags go too far, but as a non-resident I have no problem with the increase. It might have an interesting impact on some of the low to mid quality tags but it will not impact the upper half of the tags at all.
Might work for you but what about the guy that works minimum wage or wants to take a couple kids,
 

Togwotee

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It's a little , actually a lot disingenuous to put this turd in the outfitters pocket. they're not the cause of the change they're reacting to it.

It may not effect elk tag draw odds that much but it will deer and pronghorn you can count on that. bring it on.
 

BuzzH

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It's a little , actually a lot disingenuous to put this turd in the outfitters pocket. they're not the cause of the change they're reacting to it.

It may not effect elk tag draw odds that much but it will deer and pronghorn you can count on that. bring it on.
Not true, Sy was the charge behind this plain and simple.

Listen to the discussion on the task force recording. Sy and Lee Livingston flat-assed say the fee increases are to assure their clients draw. Lee also made the comment this was a temporary fix and set asides would be needed in the future.

I listened to the entire discussion, it's all on the outfitters and the task force that is over represented by outfitters.

Don't bother arguing, it's all recorded.
 

HikeHunt61

Active Member
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645
Regardless of whether the outfitters are the ones behind it, there are likely a large number of DIY hunters who are happy with the fee structure. I’d be happy if they made it three levels honestly. I do believe they should maintain the largest number of permits at the lower fee in any structure.

I think it’s a nice balance that Wyoming offers- most permits at a fee that is “affordable”, higher fees for those who can’t afford to wait. When my father was getting older, and I wanted badly to hunt with him in those last years, I switched to the Specials to pretty much guarantee going with him. Oh- and no guides for us…
 

Savage110

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Yep, 109% outfitter driven and Lee Livingston made the comment this would only make it better for outfitters for a couple years. After that he said we will have to do more to assure clients.

They aren't going to stop pushing, they flat don't care about anyone but themselves. The only reason they care about their clients is because the clients pay them. They don't care about wildlife, they don't care about diy nr hunters, they don't care about resident hunters, don't care about the GF, it's all about making money, period.

Their actions and words prove it...in fairness, they don't hide it either.
Not sure how this will help outfitters other than to save face. My question is why do they need to hang on to our money for NR elk tags from January until may? Does Sy keep the interest??
 

Booner

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150
Might work for you but what about the guy that works minimum wage or wants to take a couple kids,
If you’re making minimum wage (WA is the highest at 13.69) a WY NR elk tag isn’t in your sights. Why should the guy who works minimum wage factor into the decision on what to price a NR elk tag. Step it up, work more, get a better job, better education, make better life decisions. If you’re making minimum wage as a middle age adult you aren’t trying hard enough.
 

BuzzH

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If you’re making minimum wage (WA is the highest at 13.69) a WY NR elk tag isn’t in your sights. Why should the guy who works minimum wage factor into the decision on what to price a NR elk tag. Step it up, work more, get a better job, better education, make better life decisions. If you’re making minimum wage as a middle age adult you aren’t trying hard enough.
Agree that minimum wage workers aren't worried about elk tags.

Disagree that everyone has the ability to get a better education and that life decisions put you as a minimum wage employee. Have you priced trade schools and college these days? How is a minimum wage workers supposed to afford rent, food, heat, and go to college or trade school?

Even $20 an hour is a joke when you look at expenses just to provide the basics.

Classic example of how out of touch with reality people are with wages versus living expenses.

 

Booner

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150
Agree that minimum wage workers aren't worried about elk tags.

Disagree that everyone has the ability to get a better education and that life decisions put you as a minimum wage employee. Have you priced trade schools and college these days? How is a minimum wage workers supposed to afford rent, food, heat, and go to college or trade school?

Even $20 an hour is a joke when you look at expenses just to provide the basics.

Classic example of how out of touch with reality people are with wages versus living expenses.

I don’t doubt for a minute that people who make minimum wage have it tough. But if they are busting their ass at a job and making minimum wage they are making bad life decisions, leave that dead end job and go get after it somewhere else. I drove by a tire shop the other day offering $25/hr. Minimum wage is in the 7-8 range, that’s HS part time job stuff, not for a capable adult. I’ve got a buddy whose stepdaughter is making minimum wage, she has written the textbook on making poor decisions in life. You can’t tell me if you’re working as hard as you can and willing to get after it minimum wage is all you are worth.
 

Bookhead

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I've been a welder for a little over 10 years and now I work at one of the highest levels in my trade. I never spent a day in college or a trade school. I got my foot in the door at entry level yes some guys I work with went to college and got on my pay grade in half the time but I made money the whole time I was learning and I feel like I know my trade better then allot of them as well cause all my training was real experience. I feel like allot of trades are the same and there are entry level positions for allot of them and several companies will pay for schooling as well for trades that demand it. Everyone has the ability to make themselves worth whatever they want unless like I said above you have a disability in which case probably not worried to much about hunting out of state
 

Togwotee

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Yes the outfitters are for the increase, because you forced them to make choices. if they had their way we wouldn't be talking about any of this the 80/20 split worked great for them and lower prices left hunters more money to hire a guide. they know where this is going and they're working on damage control like any good businessman should.

I don't think it's fair to say someone is stupid or lazy is the reason they can't afford something. everyone has a different set of life circumstances. but greed will always win over compassion so it is what it is. it's too bad some decent folks are getting priced out of hunting, but it's always been a privilege not an entitlement so if you can't afford it do something else.
 

Bookhead

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Yes the outfitters are for the increase, because you forced them to make choices. if they had their way we wouldn't be talking about any of this the 80/20 split worked great for them and lower prices left hunters more money to hire a guide. they know where this is going and they're working on damage control like any good businessman should.

I don't think it's fair to say someone is stupid or lazy is the reason they can't afford something. everyone has a different set of life circumstances. but greed will always win over compassion so it is what it is. it's too bad some decent folks are getting priced out of hunting, but it's always been a privilege not an entitlement so if you can't afford it do something else.
I don't think anyone said that.
 

BuzzH

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I don’t doubt for a minute that people who make minimum wage have it tough. But if they are busting their ass at a job and making minimum wage they are making bad life decisions, leave that dead end job and go get after it somewhere else. I drove by a tire shop the other day offering $25/hr. Minimum wage is in the 7-8 range, that’s HS part time job stuff, not for a capable adult. I’ve got a buddy whose stepdaughter is making minimum wage, she has written the textbook on making poor decisions in life. You can’t tell me if you’re working as hard as you can and willing to get after it minimum wage is all you are worth.
You're making assumptions that every adult is capable. I can point you to dozens of people I went to high school with that flat didn't have the ability to learn. Many had learning disabilities and their destiny was set, low wage work was all they were ever going to get.

The other problem with your theory is you must have ignored the video I linked. $2400 a month is not minimum wage.

So even if these people you claim just made bad life decisions find a $20/hour job, they're barely making enough to just survive. Run some numbers, it's basic math.

Plus without defined retirement plans, there is no fing way they can afford to contribute to a 401k even if one is
available to them.

So they make enough to barely survive, and their reward is to work until they die on the job.

Like I said basic math is never applied to these discussions. But quick to judge people that bust their ass at a $20/hour job as being lazy bastards sure is.

God bless America...
 

Bookhead

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You're making assumptions that every adult is capable. I can point you to dozens of people I went to high school with that flat didn't have the ability to learn. Many had learning disabilities and their destiny was set, low wage work was all they were ever going to get.

The other problem with your theory is you must have ignored the video I linked. $2400 a month is not minimum wage.

So even if these people you claim just made bad life decisions find a $20/hour job, they're barely making enough to just survive. Run some numbers, it's basic math.

Plus without defined retirement plans, there is no fing way they can afford to contribute to a 401k even if one is
available to them.

So they make enough to barely survive, and their reward is to work until they die on the job.

Like I said basic math is never applied to these discussions. But quick to judge people that bust their ass at a $20/hour job as being lazy bastards sure is.

God bless America...
I agree with you buzz all im saying is if you're stuck at 20$ an hr for life its because they settled for that if they are capable of learning more that is
 

BuzzH

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I agree with you buzz all im saying is if you're stuck at 20$ an hr for life its because they settled for that if they are capable of learning more that is
Deny it all you want, some people flat are never going to make much more than $20,/hour for all kinds of reasons. One big reason is, there aren't enough $100k+ a year jobs for everyone.

Just a fact and wages have NOT kept up with cost of living even if you're skilled and a hard worker.

It's all data that's readily available, I can't make anyone understand facts, but to deny them is simply divorcing yourself from reality.
 

Booner

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But quick to judge people that bust their ass at a $20/hour job as being lazy bastards sure is.

God bless America...
Somehow you found a way to reply to my response and make up numbers and generalizations that I never mentioned. Congrats on jumping to conclusions, and inflating the numbers. You mention $20 an hr, I have never gone above the minimum wage mark (about $8 in most places) in this discussion and don’t see why a NR elk tag should be tied to affordability of someone making minimum wage. I’ll stand by my statement that if you’re a middle aged adult making minimum wage you aren’t trying hard enough. If you get “lazy bastard” from that you have problems understanding the English language.
 

Savage110

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248
If you’re making minimum wage (WA is the highest at 13.69) a WY NR elk tag isn’t in your sights. Why should the guy who works minimum wage factor into the decision on what to price a NR elk tag. Step it up, work more, get a better job, better education, make better life decisions. If you’re making minimum wage as a middle age adult you aren’t trying hard enough.
$14 an hour in CA. $15 if the company is considered a “large” employer.
 

LIK2HNT

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$14 an hour in CA. $15 if the company is considered a “large” employer.
Still not enough to live on and be able to hunt. Unless one lives with their parents rent free. Maybe if government would quit giving handouts and increasing inflation things could level out some.
 

Savage110

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Messages
248
Still not enough to live on and be able to hunt. Unless one lives with their parents rent free. Maybe if government would quit giving handouts and increasing inflation things could level out some.
Now I think I understand. Price the regular joe out of applying for the tags and turn it into a rich man’s game. Rich men that are too old or too scared to think they can live in the woods for a week and find an elk by themselves. Rich men paying for a hunt that the neither the guide or the outfitter could pay for if the shoe was on the other foot.

Sounds like the legislature should tax the living piss out of these con artist outfitters.

As for me, I actually benefit from this BS as I make a great living and my odds go up as the prices go up. I just can’t stand the way they go about their business. I am embarrassed for them.
 

BrianID

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This increase could work to my benefit in drawing tags. Personally I don't mind paying a little extra but don't like seeing others priced out and turning Wyoming nonresident hunting into even more of a rich man's sport. In reality, many of the nonresidents hunting Wyoming every year probably make more than 100k/year. There are not many guys making 50k a year hunting Wyoming as a nonresident.
It will help the special odds in some of the easier to draw pronghorn and deer tags. It will probably also make a small difference in special draw for general elk tags. I'm guessing the hunts taking 10+ points have no noticeable difference in special draw odds.
 

BrianID

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Deny it all you want, some people flat are never going to make much more than $20,/hour for all kinds of reasons. One big reason is, there aren't enough $100k+ a year jobs for everyone.

Just a fact and wages have NOT kept up with cost of living even if you're skilled and a hard worker.

It's all data that's readily available, I can't make anyone understand facts, but to deny them is simply divorcing yourself from reality.
Every citizen in this country has excellent opportunity to make more than $20/hr. People with physical or mental disabilities are a completely different conversation. Immigrants are also a different conversation. Teenagers and young people in their 20's who are still improving their earning potential are also a different conversation.

Any able bodied 30 or 40 year old man or women making $20 or less per hour did not prioritize their future earning potential when they were younger.
 

Savage110

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248
This increase could work to my benefit in drawing tags. Personally I don't mind paying a little extra but don't like seeing others priced out and turning Wyoming nonresident hunting into even more of a rich man's sport. In reality, many of the nonresidents hunting Wyoming every year probably make more than 100k/year. There are not many guys making 50k a year hunting Wyoming as a nonresident.
It will help the special odds in some of the easier to draw pronghorn and deer tags. It will probably also make a small difference in special draw for general elk tags. I'm guessing the hunts taking 10+ points have no noticeable difference in special draw odds.
Means more guys on the mountain with custom LR rifle with less than 10 rounds through them. Half of those by their gunsmith…

Oh, and the standard KUIU outer and underwear. Could you imagine being able to shoot a deer while wearing anything else? Almost impossible.
 

BrianID

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Means more guys on the mountain with custom LR rifle with less than 10 rounds through them. Half of those by their gunsmith…

Oh, and the standard KUIU outer and underwear. Could you imagine being able to shoot a deer while wearing anything else? Almost impossible.
Wyoming nonresidents hunters with custom rifles and high end hunting clothing are already the norm. My guess is that most of the nonresidents with custom rifles know how to use them.

There are a few fools that don't practice with their guns but that isn't most hunters that I've talked to. I have talked to the fools that think they can dial their scope for a long range shot when I know they don't have the practice or experience to even make a 300 yard shot under hunting conditions on a consistent basis.
 

BuzzH

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Every citizen in this country has excellent opportunity to make more than $20/hr. People with physical or mental disabilities are a completely different conversation. Immigrants are also a different conversation. Teenagers and young people in their 20's who are still improving their earning potential are also a different conversation.

Any able bodied 30 or 40 year old man or women making $20 or less per hour did not prioritize their future earning potential when they were younger.
B.S.
 

BuzzH

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Every citizen in this country has excellent opportunity to make more than $20/hr. People with physical or mental disabilities are a completely different conversation. Immigrants are also a different conversation. Teenagers and young people in their 20's who are still improving their earning potential are also a different conversation.

Any able bodied 30 or 40 year old man or women making $20 or less per hour did not prioritize their future earning potential when they were younger.
 

BuzzH

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Every citizen in this country has excellent opportunity to make more than $20/hr. People with physical or mental disabilities are a completely different conversation. Immigrants are also a different conversation. Teenagers and young people in their 20's who are still improving their earning potential are also a different conversation.

Any able bodied 30 or 40 year old man or women making $20 or less per hour did not prioritize their future earning potential when they were younger.
Still want to argue or are we done here?

 

BrianID

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Still want to argue or are we done here?

You are making a completely different argument.

My argument is that every able bodied citizen has excellent opportunity to make more than $20/hr. There is a difference between opportunity and results.

A 40 year old man or women making less could have had bad luck in life but most likely didn't make decisions and sacrifices when they were younger to improve their earning potential.
 

BuzzH

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You are making a completely different argument.

My argument is that every able bodied citizen has excellent opportunity to make more than $20/hr. There is a difference between opportunity and results.

A 40 year old man or women making less could have had bad luck in life but most likely didn't make decisions and sacrifices when they were younger to improve their earning potential.
That's simply not true.

When over half of the workers in the US are making less than $20/hour, that means that there are simply not enough jobs out there for everyone to make more than $20/hour.

FFS it's not rocket science.

If you believe everyone has an equal chance at a high paying job, you're being willfully ignorant of simple facts about the US economy and cost of living.

I'll give you an example. You say it's about not sacrificing when you're young. Say you grew up in a single parent household, which a shitload of people do. You get fairly good grades but not enough to qualify for a scholarship.

So, you break out on your own, find a $20/hour job. Rent, utilities cost you say $800/month for a shitty apartment. Food say $250 a month. You need a phone to contact your employer $40/month. Clothes are always nice to have say $20/month. You need transportation to get to work and buy a 3/4 wore out toyotashiterolla and finance it for $200/month. Say a short commute and go through 10 gallons of fuel a month...$40. Pray you don't need anything repaired.

That's $1350 a month.

Of course we haven't starting talking about health insurance, renters insurance, and other stuff...maybe another $300/month.

That's $1650/month.

Also assuming that you aren't putting any of that $20/hour into retirement. Which means you're screwed, blued, and tattooed because at $20/hour you simply can't afford a 3% match to a company 401.

How, in the actual hell, is that person supposed to save for college or trade school?

How are they to blame for not being willing to sacrifice? WTF better decisions and sacrifices do you recommend they make?

Time to jump into reality.
 
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BrianID

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That's simply not true.

When over half of the workers in the US are making less than $20/hour, that means that there are simply not enough jobs out there for everyone to make more than $20/hour.

FFS it's not rocket science.

If you believe everyone has an equal chance at a high paying job, you're being willfully ignorant of simple facts about the US economy and cost of living.
I'll try explaining my argument to you one more time.

All able bodied citizens have the OPPORTUNITY to make more. I never said they would would make more.

I'm sorry, I don't believe in the whole leftist argument of equity. I just believe in equal opportunity.
 

BuzzH

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I'll try explaining my argument to you one more time.

All able bodied citizens have the OPPORTUNITY to make more. I never said they would would make more.

I'm sorry, I don't believe in the whole leftist argument of equity. I just believe in equal opportunity.
If you believe there is equal opportunity for work, education, home ownership etc. you're plain delusional.

I can't see how anyone can be that divorced from reality.
 

BrianID

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If you believe everyone has an equal chance at a high paying job, you're being willfully ignorant of simple facts about the US economy and cost of living.
I never said everyone has an equal opportunity at a high paying job. I even gave examples of groups of people that are disadvantaged (young people, physically and mentally disabled, immigrants)
Every able bodied citizen does have the opportunity to get a high paying job. Most the 40 year olds making less than 40K per year just didn't make wise career decisions when they were younger.
 

BuzzH

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I never said everyone has an equal opportunity at a high paying job. I even gave examples of groups of people that are disadvantaged (young people, physically and mentally disabled, immigrants)
Every able bodied citizen does have the opportunity to get a high paying job. Most the 40 year olds making less than 40K per year just didn't make wise career decisions when they were younger.

Again you're not being honest. How many minorities and women are CEO's of fortune 500 companies?

Why is it women STILL make less for the same exact work as a man? Same skills, same education...yet get paid less.

You honestly believe there is equal opportunity at high paying jobs?

That's pure B.S. based on facts and reality.
 

LIK2HNT

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One think I can tell you is the hard working skilled person is not making as much now as they use to (purchasing power wise). Especially once you add in all the programs (freebies) lower income people and non working people get. Todays economy/inflation has improved lower income & non working people at the expense of skilled workers.
 

BuzzH

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Yep, everyone has an equal opportunity for high paying jobs.

If that's true, why is there only 41 out of fortune 500 companies with CEOs women? Less than 1-10.

Yeah, equal opportunity all right...

That same trend is all through the employment pool from CEO to $15/hour workers.

 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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5,088
One think I can tell you is the hard working skilled person is not making as much now as they use to (purchasing power wise). Especially once you add in all the programs (freebies) lower income people and non working people get. Todays economy/inflation has improved lower income & non working people at the expense of skilled workers.
Wages have not kept up with living expenses, vehicle prices, home prices, rent, etc.

None of it has to do with low wage earners or programs.

Inflation kicks low wage earners in the ass way harder than someone making 6 figures a year...fact.

The low wage earners are already hand to mouth, inflation crushes them.
 

BuzzH

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5,088
Point of all of this is that $2000 elk tags are going to be out of reach for a much larger part of the working class, even those making $30+/hour.

It's moving the needle toward 6 figure salaries to afford non resident hunting...and I would argue we're already there.

No way can a guy with a stay at home wife, a couple kids, vehicle payment, house payment, paying for health insurance and putting 5% of his salary into retirement is even thinking about nr elk hunting at $30/hour. No way.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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5,088
One think I can tell you is the hard working skilled person is not making as much now as they use to (purchasing power wise). Especially once you add in all the programs (freebies) lower income people and non working people get. Todays economy/inflation has improved lower income & non working people at the expense of skilled workers.
Lik2hnt,

Here's an example I like to use regarding your first sentence.

My Dad worked at lumber mills his entire life in Missoula.

My Mom didn't work.

In 1978 my parents bought the house I grew up in for $35k, which was the same amount my Dad made in 1978 in salary. They still live in that house.

Their house would be sold in hours for $450k tomorrow.

I can assure you that no lumber mill in Montana is paying fork lift drivers $450k a year.

But people are just lazy, not willing to work, make poor life decisions is what's to blame for why they can't afford a $450k house, a job that pays $450k a year and $2000 elk tags.

Sure, that's it.
 

Moe

Member
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Hunted Wyo my entire life, it's been wonderful. Retired now, Bunch of points for Ant/deer, gonna burn em one more time and never apply in Wyo again. Four or five other states gonna get the Ax too once these last round of points are gone. Getting the Hell outta the west, the tag game has grown old, the flat brimmers can have er. I'll be in a tree stand hunting Whitetail over bait, sweet tea and big bull Reds in the afternoons.
 

BuzzH

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5,088
Hunted Wyo my entire life, it's been wonderful. Retired now, Bunch of points for Ant/deer, gonna burn em one more time and never apply in Wyo again. Four or five other states gonna get the Ax too once these last round of points are gone. Getting the Hell outta the west, the tag game has grown old, the flat brimmers can have er. I'll be in a tree stand hunting Whitetail over bait, sweet tea and big bull Reds in the afternoons.
Don't blame you one bit...
 

BrianID

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Again you're not being honest. How many minorities and women are CEO's of fortune 500 companies?

Why is it women STILL make less for the same exact work as a man? Same skills, same education...yet get paid less.

You honestly believe there is equal opportunity at high paying jobs?

That's pure B.S. based on facts and reality.
The argument was never about CEO's LOL

I already stated that not everyone has equal opportunity at a high paying job before you even brought it up.

Since you asked, I'll answer one of your questions. Women getting paid less than men is for two reasons. One is the discrimination you are thinking of. The second and a very significant reason women get paid less is because they have children which puts them at a huge disadvantage in their career. I've worked all kind of jobs over my life. The only job that I've done that wasn't offered to women equally was digging post holes when I was in high school. If there was a tough lady that wanted to do the job, I'm sure they would have given her a job but the truth is men and women are not physically equal. I've worked in multiple states and 6 very different areas in the last 20 years and women without exception have been paid exactly the same as men. The difference in yearly wage between men and women has always been that men were willing to work extra hours. The truth is that young women in our country are preparing themselves for careers better than men for several years now. I'm sure you are aware that most of the advanced college degrees are now earned by women.

I've worked with many people that have high incomes that were raised in bad situations but they made good decisions and worked hard. Every citizen in this great country, regardless of race, gender, religion, etc has the opportunity to get a high paying job. Give me an example of any other large society in the history of the world that this has ever happened? I'll agree that it isn't equal opportunity and we can improve but it is by far the closest any society has provided equal opportunity.
 

SS!

Long Time Member
Messages
6,681
Hunted Wyo my entire life, it's been wonderful. Retired now, Bunch of points for Ant/deer, gonna burn em one more time and never apply in Wyo again. Four or five other states gonna get the Ax too once these last round of points are gone. Getting the Hell outta the west, the tag game has grown old, the flat brimmers can have er. I'll be in a tree stand hunting Whitetail over bait, sweet tea and big bull Reds in the afternoons.
Please make sure you have a life alert in case you fall. #besafe
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,979
Point of all of this is that $2000 elk tags are going to be out of reach for a much larger part of the working class, even those making $30+/hour.

It's moving the needle toward 6 figure salaries to afford non resident hunting...and I would argue we're already there.

No way can a guy with a stay at home wife, a couple kids, vehicle payment, house payment, paying for health insurance and putting 5% of his salary into retirement is even thinking about nr elk hunting at $30/hour. No way.
I agree that $2000 elk tags will price out many hunters. I don't think it is a good thing, even though it will benefit me. The recession that we are going to have will be a bigger impact on the average nonresident than anything else. We probably agree a lot more than you might think unless you think universal income is a good idea.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
5,088
The argument was never about CEO's LOL

I already stated that not everyone has equal opportunity at a high paying job before you even brought it up.

Since you asked, I'll answer one of your questions. Women getting paid less than men is for two reasons. One is the discrimination you are thinking of. The second and a very significant reason women get paid less is because they have children which puts them at a huge disadvantage in their career. I've worked all kind of jobs over my life. The only job that I've done that wasn't offered to women equally was digging post holes when I was in high school. If there was a tough lady that wanted to do the job, I'm sure they would have given her a job but the truth is men and women are not physically equal. I've worked in multiple states and 6 very different areas in the last 20 years and women without exception have been paid exactly the same as men. The difference in yearly wage between men and women has always been that men were willing to work extra hours. The truth is that young women in our country are preparing themselves for careers better than men for several years now. I'm sure you are aware that most of the advanced college degrees are now earned by women.

I've worked with many people that have high incomes that were raised in bad situations but they made good decisions and worked hard. Every citizen in this great country, regardless of race, gender, religion, etc has the opportunity to get a high paying job. Give me an example of any other large society in the history of the world that this has ever happened? I'll agree that it isn't equal opportunity and we can improve but it is by far the closest any society has provided equal opportunity.
Kids today in the United States absolutely do NOT have the same opportunity that I had at a college education, higher income job, or even purchasing a home.

No question and no arguing it...simple fact.

As to other countries with more equal opportunity, Norway, Sweden, Canada, to name a few.

The US is not even close to number 1 in that category.

The US has a delusion we're number 1 in everything...we're not and better start believing it.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
5,088
I agree that $2000 elk tags will price out many hunters. I don't think it is a good thing, even though it will benefit me. The recession that we are going to have will be a bigger impact on the average nonresident than anything else. We probably agree a lot more than you might think unless you think universal income is a good idea.
I believe everybody working at any job 40 hours a week should make enough to live in a 1 room apartment, drive a used vehicle, have good medical insurance, healthy food on their table, a couple weeks of paid vacation, and a pension that allows them to retire at 65. Maybe even enough to save so they can afford an emergency like a vehicle repair. I could say, go all out and make enough to afford a reasonable vacation trip a couple times a decade, to say a drive to Yellowstone car camping the whole time.

I don't know though, that could cut into a CEO's ability to buy his 4th million dollar vacation home.

I'm clearly asking for wayyy too much...scrap the couple car camping trips to Yellowstone a couple times a decade. They can pull them bootstraps up and get a second job if they're going to get greedy and all uppity.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,979
Lik2hnt,

Here's an example I like to use regarding your first sentence.

My Dad worked at lumber mills his entire life in Missoula.

My Mom didn't work.

In 1978 my parents bought the house I grew up in for $35k, which was the same amount my Dad made in 1978 in salary. They still live in that house.

Their house would be sold in hours for $450k tomorrow.

I can assure you that no lumber mill in Montana is paying fork lift drivers $450k a year.

But people are just lazy, not willing to work, make poor life decisions is what's to blame for why they can't afford a $450k house, a job that pays $450k a year and $2000 elk tags.

Sure, that's it.

$35k was a lot of money in 1978.

20, 40, 60 or 80 years ago most middle class hunters could not afford the time or expense of an out of state hunt. This is nothing new but every time a state increases fees for nonresidents, the guys that could barely afford it end up getting cut out. Inflation is really hurting the middle class and I think it is going to get even worse for the middle class over the next 5 years.

20 years ago I couldn't afford to hunt Wyoming as a nonresident and I only lived a 1 hour drive from Wyoming. I had friends that went and hunted G most years. I really wanted to go but couldn't because I was making sacrifices to improve my future career. There were even several years that I didn't even get a deer or elk in any state because I didn't have the time and/or money to go hunting. Now after making all those sacrifices, I'm able to get multiple nonresident tags every year. This year I have 3 nonresident deer tags, a nonresident pronghorn tag and a nonresident elk tag. Next year and the year after that I will have similar or possibly better opportunities because of the sacrifices I made when I was younger.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
5,088
$35k was a lot of money in 1978.

20, 40, 60 or 80 years ago most middle class hunters could not afford the time or expense of an out of state hunt. This is nothing new but every time a state increases fees for nonresidents, the guys that could barely afford it end up getting cut out. Inflation is really hurting the middle class and I think it is going to get even worse for the middle class over the next 5 years.

20 years ago I couldn't afford to hunt Wyoming as a nonresident and I only lived a 1 hour drive from Wyoming. I had friends that went and hunted G most years. I really wanted to go but couldn't because I was making sacrifices to improve my future career. There were even several years that I didn't even get a deer or elk in any state because I didn't have the time and/or money to go hunting. Now after making all those sacrifices, I'm able to get multiple nonresident tags every year. This year I have 3 nonresident deer tags, a nonresident pronghorn tag and a nonresident elk tag. Next year and the year after that I will have similar or possibly better opportunities because of the sacrifices I made when I was younger.
How do explain that in 1978 a mill worker could make a wage that would, if he wasn't taxed, buy a house outright with a years wage.

Same house in 2022 would take a mill worker making $450k to buy it outright with a years wage. How many mill workers driving a fork lift you reckon made 450k in 2022?

Mill workers still have the same opportunity today as they did then...my arse.

Nothing to see here, no problem, we're number 1...move along.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,979
Kids today in the United States absolutely do NOT have the same opportunity that I had at a college education, higher income job, or even purchasing a home.

No question and no arguing it...simple fact.

As to other countries with more equal opportunity, Norway, Sweden, Canada, to name a few.

The US is not even close to number 1 in that category.

The US has a delusion we're number 1 in everything...we're not and better start believing it.

I agree that a 20 year old today has it difficult but it was never easy. Those 20 year olds that had to storm the beaches of Normandy had a much tough start in life than any 20 year old today. The 20 year olds that lived in the US 100 to 200 years ago had it much more difficult than the 20 year olds today.

Norway, Sweden and Canada don't deal with the same multicultural issues we have in the US. Isn't Norway only rich for the same reason Sadia Arabia is rich? Norway, Canada and Sweden as well as the US are going to face significant economic challenges over the next 50 years. I've worked with people from all races, religions, gender identity, etc and they have all had similar opportunities that I've been able to enjoy as a white male. I have no doubt there has been discrimination but it isn't as wide spread as the "left" wants us to believe it is. I think job discrimination based on race, gender, etc is lower than it was 20 years ago and insignificant compared to 70 years ago.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,979
How do explain that in 1978 a mill worker could make a wage that would, if he wasn't taxed, buy a house outright with a years wage.

Same house in 2022 would take a mill worker making $450k to buy it outright with a years wage. How many mill workers driving a fork lift you reckon made 450k in 2022?

Mill workers still have the same opportunity today as they did then...my arse.
Very true. You can't just go to work at a mill and afford a house today like you could in 1978. That is unfortunate. With a little effort, I'm sure it isn't difficult to make more than $20/hr as a fork lift driver.

The US is still the best country for opportunity in the world. If your only aspiration is to drive a fork lift, you would be better off living in Canada. I've work with many doctors from Canada that came to work in the US for some reason. Their health care isn't as great as you might think. You get what you pay for.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
5,088
I agree that a 20 year old today has it difficult but it was never easy. Those 20 year olds that had to storm the beaches of Normandy had a much tough start in life than any 20 year old today. The 20 year olds that lived in the US 100 to 200 years ago had it much more difficult than the 20 year olds today.

Norway, Sweden and Canada don't deal with the same multicultural issues we have in the US. Isn't Norway only rich for the same reason Sadia Arabia is rich? Norway, Canada and Sweden as well as the US are going to face significant economic challenges over the next 50 years. I've worked with people from all races, religions, gender identity, etc and they have all had similar opportunities that I've been able to enjoy as a white male. I have no doubt there has been discrimination but it isn't as wide spread as the "left" wants us to believe it is. I think job discrimination based on race, gender, etc is lower than it was 20 years ago and insignificant compared to 70 years ago.
You think?

I put a bend in back played pulaski motor and made enough in 3 months to pay for a year of college.

How many college students you think make enough in 3 months to afford a year of college?

Also job discrimination is only insignificant if you're not the one on the receiving end.
 

LIK2HNT

Very Active Member
Messages
2,178
Buzz
I have used this analogy for the last 30 years when I discuss thing like this. It’s similar to yours.
In 1970 my dad climbed piles for the power company. He made $12k a year. A descent house would run around a years gross income and 2 years income would buy you a nice place with some acreage. This analogy is for California, but I assume a lot of places are similar. Back then a quarter of a years earnings would purchase a top of the line truck.
Jump to today in the same area. Most folks are making $65 to $85k. A house is 10 years plus of income if lucky, and a top of the line truck is a years salary.
Point being, pay for skilled workers has not kept up. Society can not keep giving hand outs to buy votes. There are to many people working the system. Minimum wage jobs have quadrupled since the 80’s. Yet skilled labor has not. In the early 80’s I was making $32.50 an hour forming and finishing concrete. I doubt that position even pays twice that now.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,979
You think?

I put a bend in back played pulaski motor and made enough in 3 months to pay for a year of college.

How many college students you think make enough in 3 months to afford a year of college?

Also job discrimination is only insignificant if you're not the one on the receiving end.

College is so expensive now because of virtually guaranteed unlimited student loans. Colleges have figured out they can charge whatever they want and students will pay. The solution is to make the college cosign the loan with the students. If the students default, then the college is on the hook for the loan.

All the free stuff that the government gives away now is more to blame for the decline of the middle class than the CEO making 7 or 8 figure salaries.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
5,088
Very true. You can't just go to work at a mill and afford a house today like you could in 1978. That is unfortunate. With a little effort, I'm sure it isn't difficult to make more than $20/hr as a fork lift driver.

The US is still the best country for opportunity in the world. If your only aspiration is to drive a fork lift, you would be better off living in Canada. I've work with many doctors from Canada that chose to come to the US for some reason. Their health care isn't as great as you might think. You get what you pay for.
That's all crap.

Let me tell you how great the US healthcare system is. Sixty percent of personal bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. That the US is number 1 in...I would call that an indictment of the US healthcare system myself.

You know how many Americans lost health coverage due to Covid? 14 million.

You know how many Canadians and Norwegians lost health coverage due to Covid? ZERO.

Oh, and for the record Canadian health care ranks higher than the US, so does Norway and Sweden too.

I'm wondering why if US healthcare is so great why I have to wait 2 months to have a small surgery on my eye? That's a complaint I hear about Canada, having to wait in line...

Where did I put that big foam number 1 hand???
 

LIK2HNT

Very Active Member
Messages
2,178
Damn I need to take typing lessons. By the time I typed my response on my phone with one finger you guys typed 3 to 5 responses each. 😎😎😎
No wonder why I can’t keep up.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,979
I believe everybody working at any job 40 hours a week should make enough to live in a 1 room apartment, drive a used vehicle, have good medical insurance, healthy food on their table, a couple weeks of paid vacation, and a pension that allows them to retire at 65. Maybe even enough to save so they can afford an emergency like a vehicle repair. I could say, go all out and make enough to afford a reasonable vacation trip a couple times a decade, to say a drive to Yellowstone car camping the whole time.

I don't know though, that could cut into a CEO's ability to buy his 4th million dollar vacation home.

I'm clearly asking for wayyy too much...scrap the couple car camping trips to Yellowstone a couple times a decade. They can pull them bootstraps up and get a second job if they're going to get greedy and all uppity.

I disagree. If you work at an unskilled job like entry level fast food, then you shouldn't be disappointed that you can afford to support a family. You need to make yourself more skilled and valuable than an entry level job.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
5,088
College is so expensive now because of virtually guaranteed unlimited student loans. Colleges have figured out they can charge whatever they want and students will pay. The solution is to make the college cosign the loan with the students. If the students default, then the college is on the hook for the loan.

All the free stuff that the government gives away now is more to blame for the decline of the middle class than the CEO making 7 or 8 figure salaries.
No chit? The middle class has declined?

Free stuff has nothing to do with it.

Stagnant wages, shitty economic policy, offshoring labor, and concentrated wealth is the problem.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
5,088
I disagree. If you work at an unskilled job like entry level fast food, then you shouldn't be disappointed that you can afford to support a family. You need to make yourself more skilled and valuable than an entry level job.
Maybe workers at fast food places should tell you to flip your own gdamn burger if their jobs are so meaningless.

And I never said support a family, support yourself. That's not much to ask, I'm not saying enough for any luxury item like a $2k elk tag. Life basics.

I guess the alternative to having employers pay a living wage is subsidized housing, food stamps, etc that YOU get to pay for so corporations like McDonalds and burger king don't have to pay a living wage.

Makes sense to subsidize a company because they don't pay enough in wages for their employees to afford a place to live and put food on the table.

You can pick up that tab...enjoy your "cheap" double mcshitty meal, hell super size it for good measure.
 
Last edited:

LIK2HNT

Very Active Member
Messages
2,178
Another aspect to look at is that a lot of skilled workers have A LOT of money wrapped up in tools to make them better/more efficient at their jobs. As unskilled labor gets closer and closer to skilled labor where is the incentive to better oneself?
 

Savage110

Active Member
Messages
248
One think I can tell you is the hard working skilled person is not making as much now as they use to (purchasing power wise). Especially once you add in all the programs (freebies) lower income people and non working people get. Todays economy/inflation has improved lower income & non working people at the expense of skilled workers.
Not so sure about that. Just paid an hourly altars of $120 to get my carb rebuilt on my quad. Pretty sure almost any guy with a couple months of training and some tools could do the work. Wages have inflated greatly in the last couple years.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,979
That's all crap.

Let me tell you how great the US healthcare system is. Sixty percent of personal bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. That the US is number 1 in...I would call that an indictment of the US healthcare system myself.

You know how many Americans lost health coverage due to Covid? 14 million.

You know how many Canadians and Norwegians lost health coverage due to Covid? ZERO.

Oh, and for the record Canadian health care ranks higher than the US, so does Norway and Sweden too.

I'm wondering why if US healthcare is so great why I have to wait 2 months to have a small surgery on my eye? That's a complaint I hear about Canada, having to wait in line...

Where did I put that big foam number 1 hand???
The access to advanced care and the quality of care is better than anywhere else in the world.

I would agree that the $$ involved in healthcare in the US is pathetic. We spend so much more than any other country per capita on healthcare and still have worse outcomes. There are many reason for this.

The real problem with the US healthcare system is that it is a combination of Capitalism and Socialism. One or the other would be better than what we have now.

COVID messed up the wait times for all kinds of elective procedures in the US. I'm sure many of the nurse in Wyoming left to take travel jobs in California and other places that would pay them $100+/hr. Many nurses and doctors just decided to retire or leave the profession due to burn out from COVID.

If you think waiting 2 months to have eye surgery is bad, you need to talk to people in Canada about their wait times. Do you think the CEOs in Canada have surgery in Canada or come to the US for surgery? You don't even have the option for many medical treatments in countries with socialized medicine. When the US switches to "Medicare for all" you will find out how great socialized medicine is. An easy target to reduce medical expenses for the government will be to restrict treatments for people 65+. They already restrict treatment for seniors in England and every country with socialized medicine.
 

SS!

Long Time Member
Messages
6,681
You guys remember these crackers? They were the chit!!!

1F2735C3-C044-4DA5-9CAA-32130DBFEC62.png


And now they are not around. Gone. Never coming back. And there’s nothing I or anyone else can do.

Kinda makes all your bickering seem like it’s for nothing. And I agree. Middle class? Upper class? All I know for sure that in a world without twig crackers we are lower class. 200/hr will not bring back twig crackers.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,979
No chit? The middle class has declined?

Free stuff has nothing to do with it.

Stagnant wages, shitty economic policy, offshoring labor, and concentrated wealth is the problem.
Free stuff has a lot to do with it. Free stuff that the government can't afford is exactly why there is inflation. I would agree economic policy, offshoring labor and concentrated wealth are also factors.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
5,088
The access to advanced care and the quality of care is better than anywhere else in the world.

I would agree that the $$ involved in healthcare in the US is pathetic. We spend so much more than any other country per capita on healthcare and still have worse outcomes. There are many reason for this.

The real problem with the US healthcare system is that it is a combination of Capitalism and Socialism. One or the other would be better than what we have now.

COVID messed up the wait times for all kinds of elective procedures in the US. I'm sure many of the nurse in Wyoming left to take travel jobs in California and other places that would pay them $100+/hr. Many nurses and doctors just decided to retire or leave the profession due to burn out from COVID.

If you think waiting 2 months to have eye surgery is bad, you need to talk to people in Canada about their wait times. Do you think the CEOs in Canada have surgery in Canada or come to the US for surgery? You don't even have the option for many medical treatments in countries with socialized medicine. When the US switches to "Medicare for all" you will find out how great socialized medicine is. An easy target to reduce medical expenses for the government will be to restrict treatments for people 65+. They already restrict treatment for seniors in England and every country with socialized medicine.
Not true.




You can't claim number 1 when you're not.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,979
Maybe workers at fast food places should tell you to flip your own gdamn burger if their jobs are so meaningless.

And I never said support a family, support yourself. That's not much to ask, I'm not saying enough for any luxury item like a $2k elk tag. Life basics.

I guess the alternative to having employers pay a living wage is subsidized housing, food stamps, etc that YOU get to pay for so corporations like McDonalds and burger king don't have to pay a living wage.

Makes sense to subsidize a company because they don't pay enough in wages for their employees to afford a place to live and put food on the table.

You can pick up that tab...enjoy your "cheap" double mcshitty meal, hell super size it for good measure.
I would actually rather flip my own burger than get one from a fast food place.

I'm sorry but a kid graduating from High School in the US today has better opportunities than almost any other time in the history of the US and especially world history. We won't really know if the kid graduating in 1978 had it better than the kid graduating in 2022 until 50 years from now. I would agree that it is very likely that 1978 would have been a better year to graduate.

Technology certainly makes life much more comfortable in 2022 than it was in 1960. The mule deer hunting opportunities were certainly better back then.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
5,088
I would actually rather flip my own burger than get one from a fast food place.

I'm sorry but a kid graduating from High School in the US today has better opportunities than almost any other time in the history of the US and especially world history. We won't really know if the kid graduating in 1978 had it better than the kid graduating in 2022 until 50 years from now. I would agree that it is very likely that 1978 would have been a better year to graduate.

Technology certainly makes life much more comfortable in 2022 than it was in 1960. The mule deer hunting opportunities were certainly better back then.

Not true...at all, other than the mule deer hunting.

Deny it all you want, but I had it way better in 1987 as a high school graduate and more opportunities than the class of 2022....and I've more than proven it.
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,979
Another aspect to look at is that a lot of skilled workers have A LOT of money wrapped up in tools to make them better/more efficient at their jobs. As unskilled labor gets closer and closer to skilled labor where is the incentive to better oneself?
This is a very sad truth. The incentive to do skilled labor compared to unskilled labor isn't what it was 40 years ago.
 

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