Wyo Task Force - Nonres Comments!

[highfastflyer]

Does Wyoming have legislative sessions every year or every other year? I am wondering about implementation date. If the recommendations from the group go to the legislature for approval, how fast will they be able to turn it around and make it law?

Rich

It would likely be 2023 before it gets implemented but Legislature will approve it in 2022 with annual meetings.
If you are a HIGH points holder you should capitalize on anything you think you can draw in 2022 before Sheep and Moose tags get cut dramatically for NR. Many of the high points holders could have drawn in many areas they are just holding out for their “Dream Tag” which was a wasted endeavor as many could have hunted good areas 5 or more years ago, now they may never draw.

 

[highfastflyer]

Any individual has the right to choose to buy points. What they do with them should also be their choice. For the record I believe the majority of party apps are family and friends using them as you think they are intended for.
I’m sure there will be a lot of NR with points for the sheep/moose that are now going to have to make a choice on what to do with them given the 90/10 passing unanimously by the task force and most likely passed by legislature also. Maybe some NR quit, maybe some choose a ewe hunt, maybe some keep building points in hope of a tag one day but it’s all a choice by that individual what to do with their points they purchased with their own money.

Don’t forget the 50/50 random and PP Change. Now half of these licenses will go to random entrants so now a big boost for any entrant to draw. I certainly wouldn’t abandon the system now as anyone has an equal 50% chance at drawing.

 

[Horniac]

…so now that the handwriting is on the wall how many NR’s are planning to buy their sheep and moose preference points at $154.50 each this summer?

The available NR sheep preference point tags will go from approximately 38 to 10 under the proposed 90/10 & 50/50 preference to random tag split in 2023.

It looks like it will take over 50 years just to get through all the NR‘s with 20 points or more going into the draw this year under the new system.

Seems like the random draw is the way to go now with the point opt out that was put in place this year. Is the opt out going to remain and what is the TF recommending as far as NR preference point costs in 2023?

Thanks,

Horniac

 

[Longun]

First year I put in for unit 100 Elk an got it....does that mean I'm lucky??

 

[LivingTheDream]

Don’t forget the 50/50 random and PP Change. Now half of these licenses will go to random entrants so now a big boost for any entrant to draw. I certainly wouldn’t abandon the system now as anyone has an equal 50% chance at drawing.

Pretty sure it is less tags in the Random then when it was a 75/25 split.

I dont think anyone is saying they are done applying, but I think strategies on if to buy points will change.

 

[highfastflyer]

Pretty sure it is less tags in the Random then when it was a 75/25 split.

I dont think anyone is saying they are done applying, but I think strategies on if to buy points will change.

For sure it will be less tags available as sheep are being decreased from 25% for NR to 10% with 90/10 but now 50% of the tags available vs. the present system offers 25% of the tags available in the random draw. If you want higher odds when you have enough points keep buying Preference points. If Wyoming can get a good handle on pneumonia die-offs we may get our herds back to historical levels and offer many more tags.

 

[jm77]

Pretty sure it is less tags in the Random then when it was a 75/25 split.

I dont think anyone is saying they are done applying, but I think strategies on if to buy points will change.

This is the problem: few know what they are saying about this and no offense to you Living.

This year with 75/25 R/NR split, with 75/25 random/PP split, 6 random NR sheep tags were issued.
With 90/10, 50/50 using total NR tags and not area by area, there would be 9 random NR sheep tags, 9 PP tags.

 

[elks96]

This is the problem: few know what they are saying about this and no offense to you Living.

This year with 75/25 R/NR split, with 75/25 random/PP split, 6 random NR sheep tags were issued.
With 90/10, 50/50 using total NR tags and not area by area, there would be 9 random NR sheep tags, 9 PP tags.

That means that all NR odds increased except for the very top point holders. I found it interesting how many NR and Resident Top point holders did not even apply for a tag this year, just a point!

 

[Horniac]

That means that all NR odds increased except for the very top point holders. I found it interesting how many NR and Resident Top point holders did not even apply for a tag this year, just a point!

That’s the way I see it. For sheep using the 2021 draw report for comparison purposes; the odds for a NR random tag utilizing the new 90/10 50/50 format the odds would go from 1:520 (6 random tags old system) to 1:347 (9 random tags new system).

Is the TF going to recommend that an applicant’s preference points are utilized in the random draw as bonus points since under the current system points aren’t considered in the random draw and all applicants are on the same footing whether you have 1 point or 25?

Otherwise, buying a $150 preference point (other than by the highest point applicants in the running for a preference point tag) provides no benefit for those NR’s vying for a random tag.

Thanks,

Horniac

 

[PLK]

This is the problem: few know what they are saying about this and no offense to you Living.

This year with 75/25 R/NR split, with 75/25 random/PP split, 6 random NR sheep tags were issued.
With 90/10, 50/50 using total NR tags and not area by area, there would be 9 random NR sheep tags, 9 PP tags.

JM77,

I’m glad you are on this forum to straighten out some of these folks. The bottom line is that in 2021 there were 180 total sheep tags issued in the draw. The breakdown is as follows:

Residents:
108 licenses in the PP draw
27 licenses in the random draw

Non-residents:
39 licenses in the PP draw
6 licenses in the random draw

Under 90/10 with a 50/50 split, NR tags would be 18 licenses total with 9 in the PP draw and 9 in the random draw. What a slap in the face to the NR preference point holders that have been paying $150 per point in recent years.

Highfastflyer says,
“I certainly wouldn’t abandon the system now as anyone has an equal 50% chance at drawing.”
Please show me how any person (resident or nonresident) has an equal 50% chance at drawing!!

 

[highfastflyer]

JM77,

I’m glad you are on this forum to straighten out some of these folks. The bottom line is that in 2021 there were 180 total sheep tags issued in the draw. The breakdown is as follows:

Residents:
108 licenses in the PP draw
27 licenses in the random draw

Non-residents:
39 licenses in the PP draw
6 licenses in the random draw

Under 90/10 with a 50/50 split, NR tags would be 18 licenses total with 9 in the PP draw and 9 in the random draw. What a slap in the face to the NR preference point holders that have been paying $150 per point in recent years.

Highfastflyer says,
“I certainly wouldn’t abandon the system now as anyone has an equal 50% chance at drawing.”
Please show me how any person (resident or nonresident) has an equal 50% chance at drawing!!

Very easy, 50% random and 50% PP. The present system you had only 25% of the available tags for random it will now increase to 50%.

 

[PLK]

Very easy, 50% random and 50% PP. The present system you had only 25% of the available tags for random it will now increase to 50%.

A 50% percent chance of drawing? So if 100 NRs apply; then 50 will draw licenses?

 

[Horniac]

Very easy, 50% random and 50% PP. The present system you had only a 25% chance, it will now increase to 50%.

I think what he was trying to say is that under the NR random you only had a chance at 6 random tags but under the new tag allocation even though NR‘s are only getting 10% of the tags NR‘s will get 9 random tags due to the new 50/50 preference to random tag split, and because of this you should keep applying and buying preference points.

However, you don‘t need any points to draw a random tag as they aren‘t taken into consideration…

Horniac

 

[highfastflyer]

A 50% percent chance of drawing? So if 100 NRs apply; then 50 will draw licenses?

No, it’s Very easy, 50% random and 50% PP. The present system you had only 25% of the available tags for random it will now increase to 50%. Your odds are more like 1 in 500 but hey, somebody wins that lottery, you can’t win if you don’t buy a ticket.

 

[PLK]

Horniac,
I understand what he was trying to say; he makes it sound like the odds to draw a NR license actually increase under 90/10. With only 9 licenses in the PP draw; not very very cost effective to buy PPs in my opinion.

Does the 50/50 split only apply to NRs?

 

[LivingTheDream]

Non-residents:
39 licenses in the PP draw
6 licenses in the random draw

Sorry, I was looking at it from a purely math perspective (25% of 45 tags would be 11). If these numbers are correct (Sorry didn't look it up) for tag allocation then only 13% was going randomly. So a 50/50 is a good deal for a majority NR hunters.

 

[WapitiBob]

. With only 9 licenses in the PP draw; not very very cost effective to buy PPs in my opinion.

A quick glance at the sheep draw odds and point totals show those applicants lack a basic understanding of the draw process.

 

[LivingTheDream]

A quick glance at the sheep draw odds and point totals show those applicants lack a basic understanding of the draw process.

I would agree with this statement, and I will openly admit that I didn't understand how tags were allocated. My strategy was kind of simple, throw in for a random unit with 2 random tags and get my point and wait in line. I didn't really study or review how those tags were allocated.

 

[DanMan]

Trying to draw those random tags is purely like playing the lottery. I dropped out a couple years ago on sheep and moose just realizing I could never draw with points.

 

[WapitiBob]

Nothing wrong with applying for the random tags, just don't pay $150 for a useless point. There shouldn't be a nr applicant with less than 10 points under the current pp system, maybe closer to 15-20; they'll never draw on points. Hoping for a change to AZ/UT style bonus points would be a different matter.

 

[BuzzH]

Very easy, 50% random and 50% PP. The present system you had only 25% of the available tags for random it will now increase to 50%.

Wrong, they had 13% (good catch living) of the tags available to them in the random draw...and that's been happening for ever. Jeff and I pointed this out to the commission a long time ago as well as the Department. I asked Hicks about this and he and I both think that the Commission could have been violating statute all along. The commission makes up "rules" on drawings that don't necessarily comply with statute or at the very least, the intent of statute/regulation.

Its not even close to a 75-25 split on preference and random.

Look at the numbers that PLK provided, he's right.

6 random tags out of 45 available equals 13% by my math...25% would equal 11 tags, again by my math.

I really don't want to hear much in the way of whining from the NR preference point applicants, they've been over-allocated tags for the last 26 years...essentially breaking it off in the a$$ of the random NR applicants.

 

[BuzzH]

Sorry, I was looking at it from a purely math perspective (25% of 45 tags would be 11). If these numbers are correct (Sorry didn't look it up) for tag allocation then only 13% was going randomly. So a 50/50 is a good deal for a majority NR hunters.

Yes, you're correct...perfect.

 

[BuzzH]

Nothing wrong with applying for the random tags, just don't pay $150 for a useless point. There shouldn't be a nr applicant with less than 10 points under the current pp system, maybe closer to 15-20; they'll never draw on points. Hoping for a change to AZ/UT style bonus points would be a different matter.

That's exactly what my NR nephews are doing...odds are still crap but more tags available to them under 90-10.

 

[highfastflyer]

Wrong, they had 13% (good catch living) of the tags available to them in the random draw...and that's been happening for ever. Jeff and I pointed this out to the commission a long time ago as well as the Department. I asked Hicks about this and he and I both think that the Commission could have been violating statute all along. The commission makes up "rules" on drawings that don't necessarily comply with statute or at the very least, the intent of statute/regulation.

Its not even close to a 75-25 split on preference and random.

Look at the numbers that PLK provided, he's right.

6 random tags out of 45 available equals 13% by my math...25% would equal 11 tags, again by my math.

I really don't want to hear much in the way of whining from the NR preference point applicants, they've been over-allocated tags for the last 26 years...essentially breaking it off in the a$$ of the random NR applicants.

Wow, Interesting they don’t follow the statute. If this is true then they will have to comply in the future as 50/50 is much more difficult to falsify and fudge the numbers. More reason to keep applying for those random tags going from 13% to 50% but as others have pointed out if you are a low PP holder it will be a personal decision whether or not to continue.

 

[WapitiBob]

I suspect they're allocating tags based on different criteria. In conversations with Jean Cole I never had the feeling she was one to fudge numbers.

 

[Cozmo8]

Its not the purpose of this TF to address those issues. But I get what you're saying. I do believe a lot of money and time has been spent researching these declines. If you want me to I can email you the papers I've read etc. Lots of interesting data out there.

When numbers get low there's always a reaction. Up here in AK people started complaining about the sheep hunting after a massive winterkill. Working groups were made with different user groups and the data was complied. I sat in on one working group where I knew almost everyone else. Many of us have hunted together and were friends. Rarely did we all agree on a talking point or the answer to a question. One thing that almost everyone agreed on was hunting rams 8 years or older wasn't the reason for the population decline. So what came of this working group/task force? Non resident's were limited to 1 ram every 4 years. Did that do anything to help the resource? Nope. Our numbers are still going down, the real problem is one that probably can't be fixed. You can't control mother nature and stop people from reproducing.....

90/10 is fair for WY residents and NR. If any of you think this is going to kill your chance of getting a moose I'll help you plan a DIY moose hunt in AK. Give up your WY moose points. Hell the tag is 1980 vs 800 for AK. That 1,180 difference will pay for your flight and then some to AK. But you must let your points lapse. Serious offer. Send me a PM. If you have less than 20 points you were never serious about moose hunting in the first place

Have a great week all,

You are wrong. It definitely is the Task Force’s responsibility to try and increase populations. It is to improve “Access”. The few tags the few tags that move over from the 90/10 is a pittance. All you Wy residents thank me for making your hunting licenses affordable for the last 25 years. A few of you are displaying some serious arrogance that I don’t understand.

 

[SS!]

You are wrong. It definitely is the Task Force’s responsibility to try and increase populations. It is to improve “Access”. The few tags the few tags that move over from the 90/10 is a pittance. All you Wy residents thank me for making your hunting licenses affordable for the last 25 years. A few of you are displaying some serious arrogance that I don’t understand.

No it’s not. And no one owes you a thank you. But if you seek recognition please thank everyone that keeps your resident licenses cheap and we will be sure to send you a card. And not just any card. One of those fancy ones that when you open it music plays. Spoiler Alert: it’s going to play cry me a river…

 

[nfh]

You are wrong. It definitely is the Task Force’s responsibility to try and increase populations. It is to improve “Access”. The few tags the few tags that move over from the 90/10 is a pittance. All you Wy residents thank me for making your hunting licenses affordable for the last 25 years. A few of you are displaying some serious arrogance that I don’t understand.

So montana residents should thank me for paying their high-priced tags? Its simple if i dont like the price i dont have to apply

 

[Cozmo8]

Ar

Don’t forget the 50/50 random and PP Change. Now half of these licenses will go to random entrants so now a big boost for any entrant to draw. I certainly wouldn’t abandon the system now as anyone has an equal 50% chance at drawing.

Are you kidding??? There will be 9 random tags.

No it’s not. And no one owes you a thank you. But if you seek recognition please thank everyone that keeps your resident licenses cheap and we will be sure to send you a card. And not just any card. One of those fancy ones that when you open Alert: it’s going to play cry me a river…

Thanks I am looking forward to the card from the three year old. I do thank you all for keeping my license prices low but you are not getting charged a PP fee like the ones Wy charges

 

[Cozmo8]

So montana residents should thank me for paying their high-priced tags? Its simple if i dont like the price i dont have to apply

You missed my point. I agree that a person knows the price going in. BUT Wyoming charged me for PPs that at the time based on the system I knew would improve my chances. Now that situation is changed and my money is gone. Simple bait and switch.

 

[highfastflyer]

Ar

Are you kidding??? There will be 9 random tags.

Thanks I am looking forward to the card from the three year old. I do thank you all for keeping my license prices low but you are not getting charged a PP fee like the ones Wy charges

9 is a 50% increase over 6 for random licenses. Applicants will have a much higher chance of drawing a random tag with this change. As far as points, it’s a personal decision but if Wyoming can ever get control of these pneumonia die-offs we may get the larger herds back to historical levels and offer more licenses in the future. There is no bait and switch as nothing was ever guaranteed or implied. The licenses change based on a number of factors like weather, disease, predators, license allocation changes etc. and no warranty was ever offered or implied. To think otherwise was just plain foolish. Every state changes their offerings based upon a myriad of factors, besides many of those points were purchased as a measly $7. The change will likely not take place until 2023 so plan accordingly.

 

[BuzzH]

You missed my point. I agree that a person knows the price going in. BUT Wyoming charged me for PPs that at the time based on the system I knew would improve my chances. Now that situation is changed and my money is gone. Simple bait and switch.

No, that's not correct, points will still increase your chances...

You got what you paid for.

 

[jm77]

You missed my point. I agree that a person knows the price going in. BUT Wyoming charged me for PPs that at the time based on the system I knew would improve my chances. Now that situation is changed and my money is gone. Simple bait and switch.

Wrong. Your PP will work exactly like they did before unless they change them to bonus points. Even then, what you paid for them still gives you an advantage.

 

[SS!]

You missed my point. I agree that a person knows the price going in. BUT Wyoming charged me for PPs that at the time based on the system I knew would improve my chances. Now that situation is changed and my money is gone. Simple bait and switch.

It’s not a bait and switch when none of it was guaranteed. It’s not that hard. A bait and switch would be them giving you an antelope tag when you won a moose tag in the draw.

Cry on.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Wyoming can ever get control of these pneumonia die-offs we may get the larger herds back to historical levels and offer more licenses in the future.

I actually think we are getting closer to a break through on this. It would definitely be a game changer.

 

[PLK]

Wrong. Your PP will work exactly like they did before unless they change them to bonus points. Even then, what you paid for them still gives you an advantage.

JM,
I’m not trying to argue with you, but how do you come to the conclusion that PP give people an advantage? Lets take Bighorn sheep for an example. Under 90/10 with a 50/50 split, there are currently only projected to be 9 tags in the preference point drawing. So basically 9 NRs are going to have an advantage per year (most likely only people with more than 20+ preference points); how do the remainder of the preference point holders have an advantage? Most of the license application services have recommended that NRs that don’t already have16-18+ preference points not to start or continue buying them at $150/year as the point does not offer any advantage/value.

 

[SS!]

JM,
I’m not trying to argue with you, but how do you come to the conclusion that PP give people an advantage? Lets take Bighorn sheep for an example. Under 90/10 with a 50/50 split, there are currently only projected to be 9 tags in the preference point drawing. So basically 9 NRs are going to have an advantage per year (most likely only people with more than 20+ preference points); how do the remainder of the preference point holders have an advantage? Most of the license application services have recommended that NRs that don’t already have16-18+ preference points not to start or continue buying them at $150/year as the point does not offer any advantage/value.

Ummm you answered your own question ?

 

[Cozmo8]

9 is a 50% increase over 6 for random licenses. Applicants will have a much higher chance of drawing a random tag with this change. As far as points, it’s a personal decision but if Wyoming can ever get control of these pneumonia die-offs we may get the larger herds back to historical levels and offer more licenses in the future. There is no bait and switch as nothing was ever guaranteed or implied. The licenses change based on a number of factors like weather, disease, predators, license allocation changes etc. and no warranty was ever offered or implied. To think otherwise was just plain foolish. Every state changes their offerings based upon a myriad of factors, besides many of those points were purchased as a measly $7. The change will likely not take place until 2023 so plan accordingly.

Do the math and tell me statistically what your “much higher chance is?”

 

[Cozmo8]

Wrong. Your PP will work exactly like they did before unless they change them to bonus points. Even then, what you paid for them still gives you an advantage.

what is the remaining hunting life of a 65 year old versus a 45 year old? Yes it’s impossible to answer but in reality the 65 year old has less “time” to draw. Therefore PP’s absolutely positively do not work the same

 

[Cozmo8]

It’s not a bait and switch when none of it was guaranteed. It’s not that hard. A bait and switch would be them giving you an antelope tag when you won a moose tag in the draw.

Cry on.

Who’s crying?

 

[jm77]

JM,
I’m not trying to argue with you, but how do you come to the conclusion that PP give people an advantage? Lets take Bighorn sheep for an example. Under 90/10 with a 50/50 split, there are currently only projected to be 9 tags in the preference point drawing. So basically 9 NRs are going to have an advantage per year (most likely only people with more than 20+ preference points); how do the remainder of the preference point holders have an advantage? Most of the license application services have recommended that NRs that don’t already have16-18+ preference points not to start or continue buying them at $150/year as the point does not offer any advantage/value.

Those 9 PP tags only go to the people with the highest number of points. That's an advantage. The turn around for the mid to lower point holders is what it is: bad odds of ever drawing a tag with 75/25 or 90/10.

 

[Cozmo8]

No, that's not correct, points will still increase your chances...

You got what you paid for.

what is the remaining hunting life of a 65 year old versus a 45 year old? Yes it’s impossible to answer but in reality the 65 year old has less “time” to draw. Therefore in this case PP’s may in the short term help but not in the long term.

I got nothing for what I paid for except a slip of paper that has one higher number on it each year. Why are you so cantankerous and antagonistic? Smile!

 

[jm77]

what is the remaining hunting life of a 65 year old versus a 45 year old? Yes it’s impossible to answer but in reality the 65 year old has less “time” to draw. Therefore PP’s absolutely positively do not work the same

I still disagree, they function exactly the same. If G&F lowered the number of sheep tags in 2022, would you say PP don't work the same then?

 

[Cozmo8]

I still disagree, they function exactly the same. If G&F lowered the number of sheep tags in 2022, would you say PP don't work the same then?

I really don’t understand your point. A reduction in tags is a biological decision and probably a prudent one. A change in the system is a sociological one but I think in this case it’s purely political.

 

[jm77]

I really don’t understand your point. A reduction in tags is a biological decision and probably a prudent one. A change in the system is a sociological one but I think in this case it’s purely political.

The system hasn't changed and most likely won't. Only tags numbers are changing. More for residents, less for NR.

 

[PLK]

Those 9 PP tags only go to the people with the highest number of points. That's an advantage. The turn around for the mid to lower point holders is what it is: bad odds of ever drawing a tag with 75/25 or 90/10.

JM77,

I understand exactly how the system works. I guess I don’t understand why Buzz doesn’t think that 90/10 with a 50/50 split won’t lead to fewer NRs buying preference points And therefore less revenue.

Prior to the 2021 Bighorn sheep drawing, there were approximately 400 NRs with 21 or more preference points. At a rate of 9 tags per year in the preference point draw it will take approximately 45 years (assuming nobody drops out) to run through these 400 applicants. Under 75/25, there were approximately 40 tags in the NR preference point draw and these top 400 applicants could have draw in 10 years.

Perhaps most of the NRs that are buying preference points (approximately 11,000 people total) don‘t understand how the system works because their $150 pref point fee really isn’t providing them any preference/advantage.

 

[Cozmo8]

Tag numbers change typically because of biological reasons not because of the system. Certainly politics can play a role in it. Hopefully in most cases it doesn’t.
Changing from 75/25 to 90/10 does change the system. The system for allocating a limited number of tags has changed. If they pass the 50/50 most likely the system will change even more.

 

[Cozmo8]

JM77,

I understand exactly how the system works. I guess I don’t understand why Buzz doesn’t think that 90/10 with a 50/50 split won’t lead to fewer NRs buying preference points And therefore less revenue.

Prior to the 2021 Bighorn sheep drawing, there were approximately 400 NRs with 21 or more preference points. At a rate of 9 tags per year in the preference point draw it will take approximately 45 years (assuming nobody drops out) to run through these 400 applicants. Under 75/25, there were approximately 40 tags in the NR preference point draw and these top 400 applicants could have draw in 10 years.

Perhaps most of the NRs that are buying preference points (approximately 11,000 people total) don‘t understand how the system works because their $150 pref point fee really isn’t providing them any preference/advantage.

I think you are correct. most NRs just don’t understand the system and are blindly buying points. One would think at some point they will see the light and realize that unless you have a lot of points the points are doing you almost no good. This bucket of money contains approx 1.5-2.0 million dollars. It will be more because we have seen Wy continue to jack this up. The 2.0 million dollar question is; how many back out and how high does the price for NR preference points have to go to offset the loss of applicants?

 

[jm77]

It will be more because we have seen Wy continue to jack this up.

Not unless the legislature changes the statute that gives the Commission the authority to charge up to $150 and I highly doubt that will happen.

 

[highfastflyer]

Do the math and tell me statistically what your “much higher chance is?”

Under 90/10 with a 50/50 split, there are currently projected to be 9 tags in the random pool. In 2021 there were only 6 in the random pool so you are STATISTICALLY going to see a 50% increase in available licenses. Those are 3 very happy, smiling and cheerful faces of hunters who will now get to go sheep hunting with a simple random drawing. You also fail to take a longer term outlook. Those points you purchase will come in very handy if the State can get a handle on these pneumonia die-offs. If we can get the herd back to historical levels there will be many more sheep tags available, especially in the larger herds.

 

[SS!]

Tag numbers change typically because of biological reasons not because of the system. Certainly politics can play a role in it. Hopefully in most cases it doesn’t.
Changing from 75/25 to 90/10 does change the system. The system for allocating a limited number of tags has changed. If they pass the 50/50 most likely the system will change even more.

Are you saying the tag numbers have changed? Where did you get that info? The allocation changed but not the number of tags….

 

[LivingTheDream]

PP give an advantage however most nonresidents that advantage is statistical speaking a mathematical impossibility. (It was this way under 75/25 too.)

The reason why NR will still buy points is 1) they plan to move to Wyoming at some point 2) the point system could change in the future to where it is a bonus point system (from my knowledge this really hasn't come up in a serious discussion at the G&F level or legislation).

I do think a lot of NR will stop buying points but it will take 3 years or so to see it shake out. Some people will just keep buying a point because they think it helps them in the random (it doesnt). Some want to see how things are going to play out and a few more years of points is worth the risk.

 

[Cozmo8]

Under 90/10 with a 50/50 split, there are currently projected to be 9 tags in the random pool. In 2021 there were only 6 in the random pool so you are STATISTICALLY going to see a 50% increase in available licenses. Those are 3 very happy, smiling and cheerful faces of hunters who will now get to go sheep hunting with a simple random drawing. You also fail to take a longer term outlook. Those points you purchase will come in very handy if the State can get a handle on these pneumonia die-offs. If we can get the herd back to historical levels there will be many more sheep tags available, especially in the larger herds.

Okay here it is for BHS.

6 random tags this year for 2840 applicants. Odds of .00211268%. There is no way of knowing how many applicants when it changes to 90/10 50/50 but assume the same 2840 Applicants. 9 random tags odds are .00316901.

Remember with Wyoming being so generous to the random pool, word will get out and there may be thousands and thousands more NRs salivating for these 3 new random tags at annodds rate of approximately 1 in 315.

 

[Cozmo8]

Not unless the legislature changes the statute that gives the Commission the authority to charge up to $150 and I highly doubt that will happen.

It already is $150 for sheep and moose for NRs.

 

[Bookhead]

Okay here it is for BHS.

6 random tags this year for 2840 applicants. Odds of .00211268%. There is no way of knowing how many applicants when it changes to 90/10 50/50 but assume the same 2840 Applicants. 9 random tags odds are .00316901.

Remember with Wyoming being so generous to the random pool, word will get out and there may be thousands and thousands more NRs salivating for these 3 new random tags at annodds rate of approximately 1 in 315.

Yea sounds likely. Thousands and thousands more applicants for 3 tags?

 

[PLK]

Under 90/10 with a 50/50 split, there are currently projected to be 9 tags in the random pool. In 2021 there were only 6 in the random pool so you are STATISTICALLY going to see a 50% increase in available licenses. Those are 3 very happy, smiling and cheerful faces of hunters who will now get to go sheep hunting with a simple random drawing. You also fail to take a longer term outlook. Those points you purchase will come in very handy if the State can get a handle on these pneumonia die-offs. If we can get the herd back to historical levels there will be many more sheep tags available, especially in the larger herds.

The 3 potential additional tags in the random draw hardly makes up for the potential reduction of NR preference point tags from 39 to 9. Those are 30 NR preference point buyers who will not get to go sheep hunting on a yearly basis that have been planning to go for up to 20+ years.

 

[BrianID]

For all of you residents that don't think it is not a scam, I have one question for you.

Would you recommend to a nonresident family member who is 15 years old to start paying $$ for sheep, goat and Moose points Wyoming?

None of you would because you know it is a scam.
Any smart 15 year old nonresident would invest their hard earned money in something else instead. With the exception of top point holders and those planing on moving to Wyoming, I have a hard time seeing how so many nonresidents think it is a good idea to give $$ for Wyoming moose, goat and sheep points.

I feel bad for the nonresidents that were raised in Wyoming and then moved away because of career choices. They now have to decide if it is really worth the $$ to play the point game in their home state of Wyoming.

 

[WapitiBob]

It already is $150 for sheep and moose for NRs.

$150 is the max, legislation is needed to increase it.

 

[Booner]

The 3 potential additional tags in the random draw hardly makes up for the potential reduction of NR preference point tags from 39 to 9. Those are 30 NR preference point buyers who will not get to go sheep hunting on a yearly basis that have been planning to go for up to 20+ years.

 

[Booner]

So it isn’t within the law to retroactively make sheep a OIL species but selling preference points to someone for 20+ years and then changing the rules of the game is? I see no problem with going 90/10 once the folks who bought points under the current rules are out of the game.

 

[BrianID]

So it isn’t within the law to retroactively make sheep a OIL species but selling preference points to someone for 20+ years and then changing the rules of the game is? I see no problem with going 90/10 once the folks who bought points under the current rules are out of the game.

I agree. The real problem is changing the rule to the game after people have invested considerable $$ is what makes it a scam.

 

[GeorgeE]

Nothing was ever guaranteed…

 

[SS!]

So it isn’t within the law to retroactively make sheep a OIL species but selling preference points to someone for 20+ years and then changing the rules of the game is? I see no problem with going 90/10 once the folks who bought points under the current rules are out of the game.

Hahahaha.

hahhahahahaga.

hahahahahagahaga

 

[Booner]

Nothing was ever guaranteed…

I suppose you are correct that there was never a guarantee that one would draw a permit. But after playing by the rules that have been in place for 20+ years one would have a reasonable expectation that the game wouldn’t totally change. A rational person can’t look at these proposals and not think they are screwing over the folks who have been in the game since it’s inception. If there was some value to those points purchased (like in UT) I could have less heartburn about it.

 

[Cahunter805]

I agree. The real problem is changing the rule to the game after people have invested considerable $$ is what makes it a scam.

It isn’t a scam. Preference points aren’t a guarantee of anything. Just because an individual is “building” points because they want a certain unit/tag doesn’t mean that changes can’t happen. Heck in many states complete hunts are canceled or not even available on certain years. If WY wants to change the distribution of the tags in their state it is their right to do so.
Also everyone keeps saying people invested considerable money. The top point holders as well as many others for sheep, moose and bison started buying points for $7 up until a few years ago. I’d say that’s pretty cheap for a point.

 

[jm77]

But after playing by the rules that have been in place for 20+ years one would have a reasonable expectation that the game wouldn’t totally change.

The real problem is changing the rule to the game after people have invested considerable $$ is what makes it a scam.

Does either of you have a link to the "rules" you are talking about? Specifically, the rule that says you can't change anything?

Remember with Wyoming being so generous to the random pool, word will get out and there may be thousands and thousands more NRs salivating for these 3 new random tags at annodds rate of approximately 1 in 315.

I know you are being sarcastic, but what state can you get better odds than 1/315 as a nonresident for drawing bighorn sheep?

 

[SS!]

I know you are being sarcastic, but what state can you get better odds than 1/315 as a nonresident for drawing bighorn sheep?

The unlimited units in MT. Which brings up a great point. All you guys crying about bighorn sheep why not go to Montana?

Benefits of Montana Bighorn hunting

1) you can go every year
2) no wilderness rule
3) cheaper non resident sheep tag
4) it’s farther away from Utah
5) bigger sheep
6) new group of resident hunter to cry about Wyoming with…

?

 

[BrianID]

I know you are being sarcastic, but what state can you get better odds than 1/315 as a nonresident for drawing bighorn sheep?

Idaho is another example of a state that has better odds for nonresidents to draw sheep than Wyoming.
JM77, you know this rule change is a bait and switch for nonresidents that have been donating serious $$ every year to build points.

 

[Cozmo8]

$150 is the max, legislation is needed to increase it.

If my memory serves me correctly it was an easy sell to up the PP amount to $150.

It isn’t a scam. Preference points aren’t a guarantee of anything. Just because an individual is “building” points because they want a certain unit/tag doesn’t mean that changes can’t happen. Heck in many states complete hunts are canceled or not even available on certain years. If WY wants to change the distribution of the tags in their state it is their right to do so.
Also everyone keeps saying people invested considerable money. The top point holders as well as many others for sheep, moose and bison started buying points for $7 up until a few years ago. I’d say that’s pretty cheap for a point.

Please clarify what “a few years ago was”?

 

[BrianID]

It isn’t a scam. Preference points aren’t a guarantee of anything. Just because an individual is “building” points because they want a certain unit/tag doesn’t mean that changes can’t happen. Heck in many states complete hunts are canceled or not even available on certain years. If WY wants to change the distribution of the tags in their state it is their right to do so.
Also everyone keeps saying people invested considerable money. The top point holders as well as many others for sheep, moose and bison started buying points for $7 up until a few years ago. I’d say that’s pretty cheap for a point.

Tell all the guys who have 15+ points and have donated significant $$ over the years that this isn't a scam. Yes the points were cheap for several years. When you start charging guys $100+ for each point and then significantly change the rules, don't be surprised when a bunch of people are upset. I would be very surprised if there is not a lawsuit over this.

 

[Cozmo8]

Does either of you have a link to the "rules" you are talking about? Specifically, the rule that says you can't change anything?

I know you are being sarcastic, but what state can you get better odds than 1/315 as a nonresident for drawing bighorn sheep?

Each states’ system is unique.
‘In some circumstances Idaho is much better.

 

[Cozmo8]

The unlimited units in MT. Which brings up a great point. All you guys crying about bighorn sheep why not go to Montana?

Benefits of Montana Bighorn hunting

1) you can go every year
2) no wilderness rule
3) cheaper non resident sheep tag
4) it’s father away from Utah
5) bigger sheep
6) new group of resident hunter to cry about Wyoming with…

?

The only crying I hear is from the child.

 

[GeorgeE]

Coz, you’re beating a dead horse…We all had a chance to comment on this!

 

[PLK]

Coz, you’re beating a dead horse…We all had a chance to comment on this!

George,
There was a time to comment on 90/10 and it was defeated earlier this year 5-0 in committee. Now it seems that the Wildlife Task Force is going to unanimously approve 90/10. The original bill didn’t say anything about a 50/50 split between preference point and random tags; am I correct to assume that 50/50 split is a done deal?

Will the 50/50 split apply to residents also?

 

[jm77]

George,
There was a time to comment on 90/10 and it was defeated earlier this year 5-0 in committee. Now it seems that the Wildlife Task Force is going to unanimously approve 90/10. The original bill didn’t say anything about a 50/50 split between preference point and random tags; am I correct to assume that 50/50 split is a done deal?

Will the 50/50 split apply to residents also?

90/10 was sent to the WTF by the committee. The vote was 4-1 against moving the bill forward for the session, pending the work of the task force. Get it right, the task force is working this out like the legislature wanted them to.

Tag allocation between pp/random/bonus points is still being discussed.

 

[jm77]

The only crying I hear is from the child.

 

[Cahunter805]

If my memory serves me correctly it was an easy sell to up the PP amount to $150.

Please clarify what “a few years ago was”?

If memory serves correctly it was 2015 but I may be wrong. Hopefully one of our MM sheep experts has the info needed.

 

[BuzzH]

JM77,

I understand exactly how the system works. I guess I don’t understand why Buzz doesn’t think that 90/10 with a 50/50 split won’t lead to fewer NRs buying preference points And therefore less revenue.

Prior to the 2021 Bighorn sheep drawing, there were approximately 400 NRs with 21 or more preference points. At a rate of 9 tags per year in the preference point draw it will take approximately 45 years (assuming nobody drops out) to run through these 400 applicants. Under 75/25, there were approximately 40 tags in the NR preference point draw and these top 400 applicants could have draw in 10 years.

Perhaps most of the NRs that are buying preference points (approximately 11,000 people total) don‘t understand how the system works because their $150 pref point fee really isn’t providing them any preference/advantage.

Real easy, because if you don't buy them, you make your chances worse and allow others to have a better chance.

I have 22 sheep points in Utah...they don't even offer a tag via the preference point pool...I buy points.

I have 11 sheep points in AZ, I already drew a desert, no way am I likely to catch the top point pool for rocky mountain bighorn...I still buy a point.

WHY? Because I don't want my odds to get worse, the system could change, maybe suddenly they find a way to deal with disease in sheep and offer even more tags. Maybe another recession, maybe a bunch of sheep hunters get hit by a bus at the sheep show in Reno...who knows.

If I would have listened to guys like you, whine about draw odds, points, etc....I wouldn't have killed a rocky mountain bighorn or a desert sheep.

Fact...because I've been hearing for decades from guys just like you that its all a waste of money and time.

Keep preaching...

 

[SS!]

The only crying I hear is from the child.

Well then get off monstermuleys, wipe your face and go take care of your crying child and tell him daddy's never going to get to hunt bighorn sheep in wyoming because of the big bad Task Force.

 

[BuzzH]

Tell all the guys who have 15+ points and have donated significant $$ over the years that this isn't a scam. Yes the points were cheap for several years. When you start charging guys $100+ for each point and then significantly change the rules, don't be surprised when a bunch of people are upset. I would be very surprised if there is not a lawsuit over this.

Guys with 15 points or less sucked at math as bad as I do...their points are for bragging rights, not for ever drawing a sheep tag. That is, unless they started applying when they were 12 years old...and maybe not even then.

Doing what I pointed out, only securing their place in line in the event of significant changes to sheep populations for the better and to make sure their odds are no worse next year.

But, expecting a tag or feeling entitled to a tag...pure fantasyland.

 

[Cahunter805]

Tell all the guys who have 15+ points and have donated significant $$ over the years that this isn't a scam. Yes the points were cheap for several years. When you start charging guys $100+ for each point and then significantly change the rules, don't be surprised when a bunch of people are upset. I would be very surprised if there is not a lawsuit over this.

I’m sure there will be many upset people when 90/10 passes myself included. There won’t be a lawsuit because nothing is guaranteed in a preference point system besides whoever has the most points in the draw/pool they chose to apply in gets the tag/tags until the quota is filled.
Also anyone with 15+ points can choose to stop buying points at anytime. They can also choose to apply for a ewe tag or maybe a tag they can actually draw with their points. Nothing is stopping them from any of these options.

 

[SS!]

Well then get off monstermuleys, wipe your face and go take care of your crying child and tell him daddy's never going to get to hunt bighorn sheep in wyoming because of the big bad Task Force.

 

[BrianID]

I’m sure there will be many upset people when 90/10 passes myself included. There won’t be a lawsuit because nothing is guaranteed in a preference point system besides whoever has the most points in the draw/pool they chose to apply in gets the tag/tags until the quota is filled.

There will be a lawsuit but they might not win. Many of those guys with bunch of points have the disposable income to spend on a lawsuit and a bunch of them are going to be very mad. According to your logic, Wyoming could make the nonresident quota 1 or even zero sheep tags and could tell all the nonresidents that points guarantee nothing.

 

[SS!]

There will be a lawsuit but they might not win. Many of those guys with bunch of points have the disposable income to spend on a lawsuit and a bunch of them are going to be very mad. According to your logic, Wyoming could make the nonresident quota 1 or even zero sheep tags and could tell all the nonresidents that points guarantee nothing.

Where is the data that guys with a bunch of points have disposable income to fight something as silly as this? I bet its the opposite. If you have a lot of "disposable" income you've likely cashed in your points, used an outfitter and have killed 3 sheep since you notched your wyoming bighorn tag.....in the wilderness area!

laffin'

 

[BrianID]

Guys with 15 points or less sucked at math as bad as I do...their points are for bragging rights, not for ever drawing a sheep tag. That is, unless they started applying when they were 12 years old...and maybe not even then.

Doing what I pointed out, only securing their place in line in the event of significant changes to sheep populations for the better and to make sure their odds are no worse next year.

But, expecting a tag or feeling entitled to a tag...pure fantasyland.

I agree, most nonresidents that are buying sheep points are just wasting their money. I think the nonresidents with a bunch of points would be ok with tag numbers getting cut if the sheep population was down. What will bother most of them is that they spent years and significant $$ to build points and then the rules were changed on them.

I did the math over 15 years ago and realized that I wouldn't have a chance at getting a sheep tag for 30+ years. I'm glade I didn't waste the time and money starting on sheep or moose points in Wyoming. I do wish I had started 24 years ago though.

I have no problem with 90/10 split for residents/nonresidents. I have an issue when the rules are significantly changed after people have donated significant $$ over years for points.

If you really want to increase resident opportunity, why not make it illegal to guide hunting or fishing on public land. Outfitters put much more pressure on the trophy animals than nonresidents that hunt without outfitters.

 

[BuzzH]

There will be a lawsuit but they might not win. Many of those guys with bunch of points have the disposable income to spend on a lawsuit and a bunch of them are going to be very mad. According to your logic, Wyoming could make the nonresident quota 1 or even zero sheep tags and could tell all the nonresidents that points guarantee nothing.

They WONT win...S.339....read it and weep.

Its all over...before it starts. The states have the right to discriminate against NR's any way they see fit.

Yes, you're correct, we could tell NR's to pound sand...and not offer them a single tag. Exactly like ND does with their moose permits...100% Resident allocation.

 

[BrianID]

Where is the data that guys with a bunch of points have disposable income to fight something as silly as this? I bet its the opposite. If you have a lot of "disposable" income you've likely cashed in your points, used an outfitter and have killed 3 sheep since you notched your wyoming bighorn tag.....in the wilderness area!

laffin'

Were is your data that they do not have disposable income? If I had 18 points for sheep in Wyoming, I would certainly consider dumping 5K or 10K or possibly more at a lawsuit.

 

[BuzzH]

Were is your data that they do not have disposable income? If I had 18 points for sheep in Wyoming, I would certainly consider dumping 5K or 10K or possibly more at a lawsuit.

And...you'd be better off taking that 5k or 10k and betting it all on black in Vegas.

Might do some good toward hunting sheep with 20k...otherwise you're flushing it via a lawsuit you simply can't win.

S.339...study up.

 

[BrianID]

They WONT win...S.339....read it and weep.

Its all over...before it starts. The states have the right to discriminate against NR's any way they see fit.

Yes, you're correct, we could tell NR's to pound sand...and not offer them a single tag. Exactly like ND does with their moose permits...100% Resident allocation.

Did ND charge nonresidents $100+ for moose points for several years and then change the rules? Bait and switch is where the lawsuit will target. I agree they might not win. The lawyers are the only winners in every lawsuit. We will just have to wait and see about a lawsuit.

 

[BrianID]

And...you'd be better off taking that 5k or 10k and betting it all on black in Vegas.

Might do some good toward hunting sheep with 20k...otherwise you're flushing it via a lawsuit you simply can't win.

S.339...study up.

You are probably right that statistically it would better to gamble in Vegas with the money but for some guys it may not be about the money. We will just have to wait and see.

 

[BuzzH]

Did ND charge nonresidents $100+ for moose points for several years and then change the rules? Bait and switch is where the lawsuit will target. I agree they might not win. The lawyers are the only winners in every lawsuit. We will just have to wait and see about a lawsuit.

Doesn't matter if they did or not...

Good luck with your bait and switch case...

Hilarious.

 

[highfastflyer]

The 3 potential additional tags in the random draw hardly makes up for the potential reduction of NR preference point tags from 39 to 9. Those are 30 NR preference point buyers who will not get to go sheep hunting on a yearly basis that have been planning to go for up to 20+ years.

No, those are 30 additional RESIDENT sheep hunting licenses which have been stolen from Residents and handed out to non-residents. Almost every Western state has a 90/10 style system. Wyoming was far far too generous for far too long at the direct expense of Residents and now that window is closing as it should have been long ago. No other state forks about 25% of all sheep tags like Wyoming did. If you don’t like the system then don’t let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.

 

[Bookhead]

Were is your data that they do not have disposable income? If I had 18 points for sheep in Wyoming, I would certainly consider dumping 5K or 10K or possibly more at a lawsuit.

Bahahahahaha! On what grounds would your lawsuit stand

 

[BuzzH]

You are probably right that statistically it would better to gamble in Vegas with the money but for some guys it may not be about the money. We will just have to wait and see.

I know I'm right...

Nothing to wait and see.

 

[BrianID]

Doesn't matter if they did or not...

Good luck with your bait and switch case...

Hilarious.

It may take a couple years or more to see the results but I'll ask you to admit you were wrong when/if it happens. If it doesn't happen in a couple years, feel free to call me out.

 

[Cahunter805]

There will be a lawsuit but they might not win. Many of those guys with bunch of points have the disposable income to spend on a lawsuit and a bunch of them are going to be very mad. According to your logic, Wyoming could make the nonresident quota 1 or even zero sheep tags and could tell all the nonresidents that points guarantee nothing.

There won’t be a lawsuit because most of the guys with a bunch of points will either just continue to apply and try to draw a coveted unit.Or if they have the disposable income to fight such a lawsuit they can just hire a guide in WY in a unit they can use their points on and go hunt.
Just an assumption by me but I feel that many of the people applying for sheep even people with 1 under Max are under the impression they “might” never draw a sheep tag but choose to still apply anyway.

 

[WapitiBob]

Nobody sued when AZ went to 5%/5%, nobody sued when the "draw was fubarred", and nobody is gonna sue if WY goes 90/10.

 

[Cahunter805]

No, those are 30 additional RESIDENT sheep hunting licenses which have been stolen from Residents and handed out to non-residents. Almost every Western state has a 90/10 style system. Wyoming was far far too generous for far too long at the direct expense of Residents and now that window is closing as it should have been long ago. No other state forks about 25% of all sheep tags like Wyoming did. If you don’t like the system then don’t let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.

Those licenses were never STOLEN from residents. It was your own legislature that gave 25% of the sheep tags away. Let’s be real. They could’ve changed this law years ago if it was such an issue for so many residents.

 

[BrianID]

Nobody sued when AZ went to 5%/5%, nobody sued when the "draw was fubarred", and nobody is gonna sue if WY goes 90/10.

There was the USO lawsuit in AZ about a decade ago. It helped solidify the states right to discriminate against nonresidents. Maybe I'm wrong about the lawsuit. If it does happen, I'll post it on the Wyoming board and I hope all of you are man enough to admit you were wrong. If I'm wrong and nothing happens in a couple years I'll be man enough to admit I was wrong.

 

[highfastflyer]

Those licenses were never STOLEN from residents. It was your own legislature that gave 25% of the sheep tags away. Let’s be real. They could’ve changed this law years ago if it was such an issue for so many residents.

A legislature heavily dominated by the Outfitting and hospitality/tourism industries. We have been trying for years to get this changed and it looks like all the pieces finally will fit together this year, the stars are aligning and the 90/10 will be implemented by 2023. 116 Sheep, Bison, Goat and Moose Tags went to nonresidents this year because Wyoming treats its resident hunters like dirt. The TF is rectifying this.