Wyoming Elk Questions & Help Needed

elkhunterUT · Dec 31, 2012

I have 5 Non-Resident Elk preference points and my Dad has 0 going into the draw this year. My Dad and brother hunted a lesser limited quota unit last year and my brother killed a smaller 5x6 bull on the archery hunt and my Dad killed a spike later on the rifle hunt after several decent opportunities on branch antlered bulls during the bowhunt.

I am considering putting back in with my Dad for this same unit and hunting both archery and rifle hunts to try and get my Dad a nice branch antlered bull, assuming we can draw with our points averaged out to 2.5 (which is possible but borderline based on what happened last year). Here's the deal though, my Dad has had the curse from hell when it comes to branch antlered bulls and while he has taken many cows and spikes, he has not been able to kill a nice mature bull. He is getting up there in age (66 this January) and I really want him to have a great hunt with a solid chance of killing a mature bull. Because of this, I am considering the possibility of doing a guided hunt. I have done some research and been impressed with Bob Sundeen's Trails West Outfitters hunt in the Shoshone Wilderness.

What are your thoughts on Trails West Outfitters and does anybody have any other recommendations to check on for a good guided hunt in Wyoming for a 320-350 class bull that we could draw for sure with 2.5 points?

Should I bag the guided idea and put in for the unit we learned last year and hope we can break the curse for my Dad?

Would love any suggestions and help anyone might be willing to share. I would be happy to return the favor with Utah elk and deer information for the units we know well.

Triple_BB · Dec 31, 2012

Well, if yer looking at 61, its probably one of the better elk areas in the state. Never heard anything negative about Sundeen. Last time I hunted 61 we did it DIY. Next time I decide to do another guided elk hunt it'll likely be with him since he's the only one who outfits in 61...

TOPGUN · Dec 31, 2012

The main thing I hope you realize is that just going with an outfitter doesn't assure your Dad will do any better than on your DIY hunts. It sounds to me like the unit you hunted last year produced pretty well and your Dad had a chance there at decent bulls from your account of things. I'm a DIY guy and would put in for that same unit, hope to get the tag, and if you do you can do the bow and rifle hunts again to break that "curse".

elkhunterUT · Dec 31, 2012

TOPGUN,
I agree with what you're saying - my main thought in going with an outfitter, especially with Bob Sundeen on horseback, is that much of the heavy legwork is done on horses so the challenges of getting back in where the elk are would not be so hard on my Dad at his age and he would be able to hunt better and harder, thus upping his odds of killing a nice bull. I have never been on a guided hunt and could be way off base with that thinking, but I want my Dad to kill a nice bull in a bad way and will consider anything to increase his chances.

On last years hunt, my brother shot his bull fairly early on in the hunt and packing the bull out on our backs put my Dad in a bad position for being able to hunt hard the remainder of the hunt. We still had opportunities to get him a bull but his legs were shot after the packout and we couldn't be as aggressive as we normally would be and couldn't always go in deeper where the elk were.

tracker12 · Dec 31, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-12 AT 05:52PM (MST)[p]Might want to spend more time getting your dad a bull then having him pack out yours. I was in a similar situation years ago with my Dad. I left the gun at home. It goes the same thing when you start taking your kids. You have to concentrate on them and sacrifice.

440sixpack · Dec 31, 2012

Your first move should be to look at the draw odds, there's no point in worrying about outfitters if you know you can't draw that unit.

61 will take at least 4 or 5 points, and I'm pretty sure WY rounds down like Oregon but I'm not sure. if so you have 2 points, even if it's 3 you're still out.

I would have a few suggestions if you had more points but I'm not sure what to tell you . keep in mind a 330 bull is pretty nice for WY so don't expect lots of them especially on low point or general areas.

Stay thirsty my friends

TOPGUN · Dec 31, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-12 AT 06:38PM (MST)[p]"61 will take at least 4 or 5 points, and I'm pretty sure WY rounds down like Oregon but I'm not sure"

Wyoming averages all the points on a party application and DOES NOT round up or down! It sounds like he will need to look at other units taking a lot less average points than 2.5 that they will have if his Dad is at zero.

440sixpack · Jan 1, 2013

How do you have a drawing with a fraction of a point? 2.6 beats 2.5? seems odd but I guess they could.

Wyoming copied Oregons system and Oregon rounds down from 2.5 and up from 2.6 so I just figured they followed the same rules.

In any case 2.6 rules area 61 out.

Stay thirsty my friends

TOPGUN · Jan 1, 2013

What would the sense be in taking an average and then rounding up or down when you really think about it? It's just as simple to program the computer to choose the applicants by 0.1 of a point as it is by 1 whole point and that's exactly how Wyoming does it. I had 1PP for antelope and the guy I partied with had 4PPs. We drew the last couple tags in the unit we applied for with a 2.5PP average and nobody below us with less got drawn and there were a bunch with 2PPs. It seems like the proper way to do it if you're going to average points in a party application because the whole reason for having a PP system is to allow those with more to get first crack at the tags available.

440sixpack · Jan 1, 2013

It makes some sense to round points. for example if you had 4 guys with zero, and one guy with 1 point put in as a party they'd each have 1/5 of a point, there 5 guys would blow away 5 people with 0 points by a simple move. so everyone has their non hunting mother in law, gandma , blind cousin put in for a point and apply with them and they always get a tag. you can still do this with whole points I know because I do it, but it takes years to build up enough points to play the game using the non hunter.

I'm not saying that's the end of the world, but it does explain why fractions are an easy way to manipulate the system a little.

It doesn't matter to me I never put in as a party out of state anyway.

Stay thirsty my friends

WapitiBob · Jan 1, 2013

I suspect if those 4 guys were your buddies and you were the 5th guy, the perspective would change. Kinda depends which side you're on. And, the next year, all 5 are back to zero.
Applying grandma is a non issue. When it comes time to draw, licenses fees are paid up front. Whether grandma chooses to hunt is her business.

440sixpack · Jan 1, 2013

The object of the point system is to give the hunter who hasn't drawn a better chance every year he fails. not to manipulate the system with non hunters to beat the guy who didn't get to hunt last year.It makes perfect sense to round fractions less than 50% down to minimize it. If WY chose not to so be it I was just explaining the logic behind it.

By the way I am the one getting the ride on points because I do put every non hunter I can get in the draws to build points for me and I pay the cost. if OR did it like WY I'd get a faster return on my investment.

Stay thirsty my friends

TOPGUN · Jan 1, 2013

LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-13 AT 09:05PM (MST)[p]So you make that statement and then openly follow it up that you are using their system to cheat and benefit yourself? That's basicly what you're saying because it doesn't matter who pays the license fees if you are the only one benefitting from doing it. IMHO I doubt that many nonhunters are doing what you're saying unless it would be a PETA member trying to draw a license so they can tear it up.

WapitiBob · Jan 1, 2013

LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-13 AT 11:23PM (MST)[p]
In OR you're not required to pay up front tag fees so you're actually getting a better investment.

440sixpack · Jan 2, 2013

You have to buy a hunting license in OR to apply so it's not free but yes it would be far cheaper than NR fees in WY. the point of point rounding still applies though mainly for residents.

Yes I try to cheat the system, but it's not against the law so I wish we had the WY system. as far as how many do it? in my area I don't know a single hunter who doesn't. if you have a pulse someone you know is going to build your deer and elk points. if you're over 65 and have a pioneer license all the better then it's only $8

Stay thirsty my friends

TOPGUN · Jan 2, 2013

Ah, another legal, but not ethical argument, that I will leave right where it is! Have fun cheating the system just because "everybody else is doing it"!

BuzzH · Jan 2, 2013

If WY ever goes to a Resident Point system for elk, deer, and antelope...I'll be doing the exact same thing.

All my neighbors and non-hunting friends will be applying and I'll be using their points.

Best way to stop the abuse is never to start a point program to begin with. But, if the residents here demand one...I'll play the game.

TOPGUN · Jan 2, 2013

And I thought you were the perfect conservationist, LOL!!!

BuzzH · Jan 2, 2013

I am about conservation, and thats why I've been against Wyoming adopting a point scheme for resident deer, elk, and antelope.

But, if a majority are too stupid and short sided to see the downside...I'll remind them by drawing quality tags via piggy-backing on my neighbors/non-hunting friends points.