Wyoming Guides can No Longer Scout for Outfitters???

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Founder

Founder Since 1999
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10,079
Here's an interesting topic to discuss. I'm right in the middle of it, trying to operate my consulting service legally and also wanting it to be enforced fairly.

New rule in Wyoming, "No person shall sell or barter any geographic location information for any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison to aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison."
The legal statute calls for prohibiting, "The selling of wildlife geographic locations."

I've found nowhere where guides are exempt from these laws, however.............

The question is, if a guide is getting paid by an outfitter to scout an area and then reports what he's found and where so that the outfitter can pass that information onto other guides taking hunters out, did the guide just sell a geographic location to the outfitter?

Does HOW someone gets paid change anything? What about WHO is doing the paying? Should there be unwritten "passes" on rules given to certain parties?

I'm in the middle of talking with a F&G officer in Wyoming to try and figure it all out. Depending on what really is a "geographic location" for wildlife, guides doing any scouting in Wyoming and then providing information about what they saw and where to an outfitter in exchange for payment would be breaking the law. It could change the game in Wyoming BIG TIME if outfitters can no longer hire people to gather that information for them.

I'm hoping to hear if there'll be a special pass for guides or not on this. The rule is bundled in Section 20 of the new regs with other "technologies". Are guides exempt from those rules too?

Regs

Bottomline, the rules need to be enforced fairly across the board, that's what I'm thinking.
 

DW

Long Time Member
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Lmao! Founder, the law was drawn up by outfitters to stop you from doing what you were doing. I'm not sayin it's right or its fair but it is what it is. An outfitters guides are on the outfitters payroll. They aren't selling geographic locations of deer to an outfitter, they are performing the duties of the job an outfitter pays them to do. You're wasting your time. You didn't get your way and this comes off petulant. Just my opinion and we've all got a couple.
 

nfh

Long Time Member
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Dw said is perfect. They operate under a outfitters lic. and that's legal.
 

lostinOregon

Very Active Member
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I think DW hit it. A guide is performing his duties as an employee. No guides are going to get cited for this activity. Unfortunately they targeted you because you were a threat to their business model, plain and simple. I don’t think it’s right, and think you should be allow to do what you do. Unfortunately it doesn’t matter what I think, or this forum decides it will matter what the fish and game think and prosecutors think the intent of the law is.

Rich
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
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10,079
Lmao! Founder, the law was drawn up by outfitters to stop you from doing what you were doing. I'm not sayin it's right or its fair but it is what it is. An outfitters guides are on the outfitters payroll. They aren't selling geographic locations of deer to an outfitter, they are performing the duties of the job an outfitter pays them to do. You're wasting your time. You didn't get your way and this comes off petulant. Just my opinion and we've all got a couple.
If that's the case, then so be it. I'm just trying to figure out what is and isn't legal. From the Game and Fish I'm looking for solid answers, not just opinion. If being employed by an outfitter makes it OK to scout and provide them with locations of game, then I'll work that direction if need be.
If that's your opinion, what about a resident "guide"? Are they exempt too do you think?
I know who the law was written to stop, but you'd sure think there'd at least be a few in the system who are about doing things fairly and not just doing things to make outfitters happy.
If the law exempted guides and outfitters, why wouldn't that have been written. I was told by the F&G officer today that NO ONE was exempt, but he wasn't 100% sure either on it all.
I asked him, "how would someone know who is or isn't exempt by reading the statute or rule?" (as above) I didn't get anything firm. He's going to get back with me.
 

Blank

Very Active Member
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2,796
I think DW expressed it correctly. This has been brought up in several states F&G Dept meetings, to eliminate posses and finders fee payments. I know several of our CO's have talked it over. So far, guides employed by outfitters have been exempt as they are performing one of their "duties".
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
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10,079
I think DW expressed it correctly. This has been brought up in several states F&G Dept meetings, to eliminate posses and finders fee payments. I know several of our CO's have talked it over. So far, guides employed by outfitters have been exempt as they are performing one of their "duties".
Well, that's where it all gets messy, is all there is to go on is guesses and opinions. There is a definition of a "guide" in Wyoming, and scouting for game is not defined in the definition. They don't use "Use days" allotted by F.S. when scouting for game. That's my problem, where are the EXACT rules here by the G&F? We all have opinions and guesses, but where the heck are the real rules and where does it say who does or doesn't have to abide?

They bundled the rule I'm talking about in the regs with 3 others. None list any exceptions. Are guides exempt from those as well as par to their "duties"?
 

lostinOregon

Very Active Member
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It’s not guesses and opinions. In this forum yes. The Wyoming fish and game CO’s and the prosecuting attorneys are the first ones that will interpret the rule. The only way to know where they stand is to talk to them. If you take a forums opinion and say it’s messy, that’s not worth a hill of beans. If it was me I would call and confirm their intentions on enforcement. I don’t think they will say it is squishy. It will be up to you to decide what your next move is. For you to argue that it is squishy, that would take place in a court of law. I don’t like the law either, but yours and forum members opinions on law intent won’t matter one bit.

usually when a new law is being interpreted, or it is not clear, or agencies need direction on the meaning and intent of the law, the State’s Attorney General will he asked for an opinion.

Founder, you may not like my thought process, but it comes from experience.

Rich
 

nfh

Long Time Member
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6,053
Founder get a outfitters license. Then get insurance. Then pay the forest service your fees. Its that simple. They pay their dues and you come in and pay zero. I just solved your issue.

Now what will you call your business????? maybe POINT SHARING OUTFITTERS!!!

one last thing. please don't join the WYOGA
 

Savage110

Member
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28
Founder get a outfitters license. Then get insurance. Then pay the forest service your fees. Its that simple. They pay their dues and you come in and pay zero. I just solved your issue.

Now what will you call your business????? maybe POINT SHARING OUTFITTERS!!!

one last thing. please don't join the WYOGA
Regardless of how the law is written, it was intended (and will be interpeted) to protect the Outfitters. Why? Because the state generates $ from them. Same as when laws are passed to ban Uber and Lyft. Do they really care about passenger safety and all the other reasons they cite? No, it is simply to protect the Cab industry. Why? They pay the state big $. So, as nfh stated, get an Outfitters license, and my guess is you will be welcomed with open arms. Until then, you will be fighting a battle that the state doesn't want you (and won't let you) win. Just my opinion, of course.

I don't have a problem with what you do, but the state is always going to have a vested interest in siding with the party that is making them money. At the least, you have a law written just because of you! Not many of us can say that. Perhaps you can requst to have it named "Founder's Law". Keep fighting, and good luck.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
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10,079
Regardless of how the law is written, it was intended (and will be interpeted) to protect the Outfitters. Why? Because the state generates $ from them. Same as when laws are passed to ban Uber and Lyft. Do they really care about passenger safety and all the other reasons they cite? No, it is simply to protect the Cab industry. Why? They pay the state big $. So, as nfh stated, get an Outfitters license, and my guess is you will be welcomed with open arms. Until then, you will be fighting a battle that the state doesn't want you (and won't let you) win. Just my opinion, of course.

I don't have a problem with what you do, but the state is always going to have a vested interest in siding with the party that is making them money. At the least, you have a law written just because of you! Not many of us can say that. Perhaps you can requst to have it named "Founder's Law". Keep fighting, and good luck.
I don't want to be an outfitter, but if I need to be a guide to scout for an outfitter, then so be it. But where is this exception for guides? Even if I were a licensed guide, I sure as heck wouldn't want to be up there scouting and handing that information over in exchange for a paycheck without knowing that I'm OK to do so. The statute and rule say what they say. And they NO!

In all honesty, it doesn't matter all that much if I'm scouting and giving the info to an outfitter or a DIY guy. I'd probably rather just a bit give it to a DIY guy because I know they're only going to be hunting the area for 4, 5 or 6 days. The outfitter will have multiple clients hunting the area for 3 weeks straight if there's a big one there. Plus it's funner dealing with a DIY guy.
But in the end, I just like to go scout and find deer. Some people get paid to do it. I just want to know for sure what the law is. There's just no way I can bank on a G&F officer giving me a pass because I'm working for an outfitter. I'd like to see in writing the "pass".
You know what I mean? Wouldn't you?
 

bigshotca

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1588972957756.jpeg

It’s not first place Founder but it’s the best you could do👍🏻
 

BuzzH

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In all honesty, it doesn't matter all that much if I'm scouting and giving the info to an outfitter or a DIY guy. I'd probably rather just a bit give it to a DIY guy because I know they're only going to be hunting the area for 4, 5 or 6 days. The outfitter will have multiple clients hunting the area for 3 weeks straight if there's a big one there.

Sounds like there's a difference to me from what you wrote...

Selling that information isn't going to be a one off for the outfitters. Big bucks tend to use the same areas quite a bit, they'll make sure they maximize profits off the information you sell for years to come.

I guess you have a decisions to make, good luck with that...
 

Geko42

Active Member
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190
A guide doesnt have to tell the outfitter he/her is working for the location of anything. Guides can just work for the outfitter and take hunters.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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It was more than outfitters and guides that didn't like people selling locations to WY's wildlife. The GF, NGO's, and many individuals were in favor of doing away with scouting services.

There are much bigger issues with wildlife, IMO, but I'm fine with the regulation change.
 

Gator

Long Time Member
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17,176
So does the guide have to be employed by the outfitter BEFORE he finds the animal or can the OUTFITTER just hire him for the 10 minutes it takes for him to show the outfitters the trailcam or phone pictures
Huge GREY area.
 

Cheater

Active Member
Messages
233
Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

It is beyond me why you're so hell bent on fighting this. Plenty of Wyoming folks clearly don't want you peddling your services. What is the most you've made in one year of these "consulting packages"? $5-10K in a year? Is it really worth it?

Unfortunately I think you've already pissed in your own cheerios, but if I were in your position I would have quietly gone about my business of point sharing and getting to hunt annually. Now that the can of worms is open with your paid packages, we'll continue to see new regulations.
 

bigshotca

Active Member
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If anyone will find the loophole and grey areas I know where my money will be! Anything to cheat the system I guess?
 

lostinOregon

Very Active Member
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It is not a grey area If the legislative intent was not for employees of outfitters. Again. If only matters what the G and F and the district attorneys think the law is. I will guarante you no guides that are working for outfitters will have any issues with this statute. The testimony and intent was directed at exactly what you were and are doing Founder. Your interpretation of what licenses guides are doing is irrelevant. The only thing you can control is what you are doing.

I think the statue is a big overreach, but again my opinion doesn’t matter. If a state passes a law to stop what you are doing, I probably wouldn’t keep doing it and tell them that the guides are doing it also. It won’t matter at all in a court of law.

Rich
 

Joe2Kool

Very Active Member
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From what I remember reading many months ago about this, outfitters pay fees and taxes to be a licensed outfitter, which makes them exempt. Otherwise they could not outfit or do drop camps.

I read the statute many months ago and may not remember it 100% correctly, but that's how I remember it.
 

tracker12

Very Active Member
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I doubt WY is concerned with point sharers. They are looking to stop 20 guys on a mountain trying to find the next boomer that is going to cost the client $25,000. This rule will never stop that under the table payment for the scouter that locates a 400" bull.
 

Gorilla

Member
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97
What if the transaction happens outside of Wyoming? Looks like WY F&G are only banning the selling side of the transaction. So I would not be breaking the law if I were in possession of paid for GPS coordinates of a big deer that were bought legally in Utah.
 

Castnshoot

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Kind of like a guy who spends years building up a huge clientele of costumers for his Mexican restaurant. Buys the building , pays all the taxes, insurance, and licensing fees.

Then some guy parks a taco truck right out front selling delicious 50 cent street tacos.

Yes the tacos are cheap and delicious, but the restaurant owner is not going to go for it.

Some call it poaching.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
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It amazes me how Wyoming hunters are the loudest to complain about the SFW and how they control the DWR and how the CWMU are terribly for hunting. But yet the WYOGA dictates Wyoming Fish and Game laws just as much as the SFW does in Utah.
I do think these Wyoming outfitters do invest alot of money into the state so that is a legitimate complaint when someone like founder makes money without investing into the system. But to cut him out completely, why did they not come up with a fee that founder or others could pay and be part of the system.
I am sure the state would have liked a fee coming in.
But at the end of the day the WYOGA did not want founder to be part of there club so they got the state to axe him.
Just my personal opinion
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
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Kind of like a guy who spends years building up a huge clientele of costumers for his Mexican restaurant. Buys the building , pays all the taxes, insurance, and licensing fees.

Then some guy parks a taco truck right out front selling delicious 50 cent street tacos.

Yes the tacos are cheap and delicious, but the restaurant owner is not going to go for it.

Some call it poaching.
Castanshoot you are 100 percent right.
But what did the State of Utah do they put in some rules and maid them taco trucks pay a fee.
So now the state gets some cash and they taco trucks have to invest in the system.
 

Castnshoot

Very Active Member
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“ why did they not come up with a fee that founder or others could pay and be part of the system. ”

Kind of like a poachers fee right?
 

Buckjunkie

Active Member
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276
Capitalism. It’s a beautiful thing most of the time.

Founder puts in the work and sells information. The problem isn’t Founder, it’s the guys wanting to cut corners by buying a location of a big buck or paying for a guide.

Everyone wants the success, but they don’t want to put in the research and hard work. That creates opportunity for someone to make a dollar.

I only wish that there were two record books. One for guys that put in the time and one for guys who buy a buck.
 

Slightlysober

Very Active Member
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1,541
Founder can focus on the outfitters but in this situation I would wager all user groups voiced their opinion on what Founder is doing. The same happen with aerial scouting of the big bucks a few years back.

Planes, scouting services, bait, everyone is just trying to cut corners for their personal gain. And all it does is put additional pressure on the resource. Which eventually will lead to further restrictions.

Founder is probably forced to try to make money somewhere else. Message boards are way down and on their way out. Be interesting to know the age group of the active members. Hell 1 out of 5 posts are from one individual. I’ve been trying to do my part to save mule deer by trolling here. Maybe if we all just posted more the ad revenue would go up and he could stop this silly scouting service.
 

hornkiller

Long Time Member
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"It amazes me how Wyoming hunters are the loudest to complain about the SFW and how they control the DWR and how the CWMU are terribly for hunting. But yet the WYOGA dictates Wyoming Fish and Game laws just as much as the SFW does in Utah."

WYOGA hasn't stolen 1000 tags from the public draw to pimp out bud!
 

Slightlysober

Very Active Member
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It amazes me how Wyoming hunters are the loudest to complain about the SFW and how they control the DWR and how the CWMU are terribly for hunting. But yet the WYOGA dictates Wyoming Fish and Game laws just as much as the SFW does in Utah.
I do think these Wyoming outfitters do invest alot of money into the state so that is a legitimate complaint when someone like founder makes money without investing into the system. But to cut him out completely, why did they not come up with a fee that founder or others could pay and be part of the system.
I am sure the state would have liked a fee coming in.
But at the end of the day the WYOGA did not want founder to be part of there club so they got the state to axe him.
Just my personal opinion

Where are these threads of Wyoming residents complaining about CWMUs? And about 99.9% of the bitching about SFW is from Utah hunters/residents.

Utah did give wyoming a shed season. Arseholes.
 

LivingTheDream

Active Member
Messages
165
Capitalism. It’s a beautiful thing most of the time.

Founder puts in the work and sells information. The problem isn’t Founder, it’s the guys wanting to cut corners by buying a location of a big buck or paying for a guide.

Everyone wants the success, but they don’t want to put in the research and hard work. That creates opportunity for someone to make a dollar.

I only wish that there were two record books. One for guys that put in the time and one for guys who buy a buck.

Capitalism does work. The issue this isnt capitalism this is more closely aligned to socialism. We are discussing a state resource (the animals), with the state dictating who gets to hunt it and what is "fair".

You probably mentioned the biggest issue with hunting "the book". And there almost is essentially 2 books, SCI where animals raised in a pen count and B&C. Either way, both are destroying hunting.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
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I'd love for Utah to follow this.

I'm not surprised. And I already know Founders argument, we "discussed" this a year or so ago.

This is EXACTLY the same as a licensed contractor having to deal with unlicensed competition.

He doesn't want to pay INTO the system. He can, as was already pointed out, pay the fee, buy insurance, be bonded, and not worry about it.

It's obvious he is searching for the loophole right now. In doing so he is pretty much exposing what many of us have claimed for years. This IS about $$$ and not a love of scouting. No one stopped the scouting. Just the $$$.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
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10,079
The question is still the same, if a guide is getting paid by an outfitter to scout an area and then reports what he's found and where so that the outfitter can pass that information onto other guides taking hunters out, did the guide just sell a geographic location to the outfitter?

Should one assume that a licensed guide is exempt from the rule? Even though the rule doesn’t point that out? How is one to know who is or isn’t exempt from the rule?

I’m talking with G&F officer in hopes of a complete understanding of who the rule does or doesn’t apply to. The rule says what it says.

New rule in Wyoming, "No person shall sell or barter any geographic location information for any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison to aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison."
The legal statute calls for prohibiting, "The selling of wildlife geographic locations."

“No person”. Who does or doesn’t count as a person?
“Selling”. Does being paid by paycheck constitute selling? Or does only other sorts of checks count as selling?
I just want to know the facts. Like everyone, I can guess, but laws usually aren’t geared around taking a good guess and hope you’re right.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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3,683
This is what I believe.

A guide isn't selling an outfitter a geographic location of an animal when they scout.

They're scouting as part of the condition of employment. The guides also aren't being paid as packers when they pack a clients animal. They aren't being paid as cooks if they make the clients lunch. They're not being paid as a construction engineer when they put up a wall tent. They aren't being paid as taxi drivers when they pick up a client at an airport.

They're being paid as guides and all of those duties as assigned are what they are being compensated for.

As to your question of "selling", read the language, its right there in your post.

"barter or sell". So, no it doesn't have to be a paycheck.

As others have said, there is no question of what the INTENT of this law is. Even you know that, the wardens know, and the courts will know.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
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25,315
The "QUALITY" Mule Deer Hunting Days is Perty Much Done!

The Few Things you're Gonna See the Management Masters Try & Do comes Way Too Little & Way Too Late!

You're Gonna PAY TO PLAY!

Or You're Gonna be Happy with that Little Ole PISSCUTTER!

I'm Doing Neither!
 

Slightlysober

Very Active Member
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1,541
The question is still the same, if a guide is getting paid by an outfitter to scout an area and then reports what he's found and where so that the outfitter can pass that information onto other guides taking hunters out, did the guide just sell a geographic location to the outfitter?

Should one assume that a licensed guide is exempt from the rule? Even though the rule doesn’t point that out? How is one to know who is or isn’t exempt from the rule?

I’m talking with G&F officer in hopes of a complete understanding of who the rule does or doesn’t apply to. The rule says what it says.

New rule in Wyoming, "No person shall sell or barter any geographic location information for any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison to aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison."
The legal statute calls for prohibiting, "The selling of wildlife geographic locations."

“No person”. Who does or doesn’t count as a person?
“Selling”. Does being paid by paycheck constitute selling? Or does only other sorts of checks count as selling?
I just want to know the facts. Like everyone, I can guess, but laws usually aren’t geared around taking a good guess and hope you’re right.
You’re reaching really far here. And the worst part is you are tying up resources (game wardens time) to try to prove a point that you already know the answer to.

In your example the guide is on the payroll doing the scouting that outfitters do. Not against the law. Where the outfitter may cross the line is if he makes a package like yours and then tries to sell it. Like you do.

Can you not see the difference?
 

nfh

Long Time Member
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6,053
Your trying to find a way around this founder so you keep picking at it

A guide is going to scout for the upcoming hunt. Then take that hunter out during season. The hunter is paying for services such as food/fuel/stock/gear etc etc.

The guide doesnt go in and take GPS coordinates then sells the GPS location of a trophy animal to some random dude. Again they provide a full service..

Again they have established a buissness that pays the fees to do what they do. You want the law to shut down on a legit buissness.

How many years in the wyoming forum have members said that founders law is coming.

Do you know how many times i have taken hunters including monster muley members out on a hunt. My time scouting along with some of my gear and fuel. Getting a guide permit . Missing work. Guess what i got paid? ZERO DOLLARS. why? Cause its illegal to accept that money. I do it cause i enjoy it
 

Slightlysober

Very Active Member
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I got an analogy for you founder. Two guys go out selling prescription pills. One is licensed, works for a company and gets a paycheck. The other guy doesn’t work for anyone, not licensed but provides the same pills in a different package. Ones a doctor, the others a drug dealer. Guess which one you are? I would think it’s obvious but to be clear you’re the doctor. Kidding, you’re the drug dealer.

Hope that helps.
 

DW

Long Time Member
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13,440
I don't even think you're trying to find a way around it. You didn't get your way, you're mad and you want to poke the outfitters in the eye. Here's at the most, what's going to happen. They're going to take five minutes, write in an exemption for guides on an outfitters payroll, then hit the bar for drinks laughin with each other. You won't be there laughing with them, soooo.......

Just how I see it from following this from the beginning from way outside.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
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10,079
No. I’ve worked as a contractor for an outfitter in the past and provided him with information on what I’ve found while scouting. My question is, am I breaking the law to do that again? Or because I’m working for an outfitter, am I ok? Could I do it the same, as a sub-contractor or do I need to be paid via paycheck?
Those are the questions I have?

Me working for DIY guys is totally different. That I know has to change.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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3,683
If you aren't on an outfitters payroll and licensed as a guide...I'd say you're breaking the law.

If I were you, I wouldn't scout for an outfitter unless I was on their payroll, meaning being covered by their workman's comp, UI, taxes with held, etc., and also licensed by the state as a guide.

If you're going to continue to scout for money, may as well protect yourself.
 

Slightlysober

Very Active Member
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You could go the 1099 route, not sure if would have to have a business license etc. Wouldnt be hard to find out...
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
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I think the only thing you could say is that an outfitter won't be able to pull up pics to send to a customer.

But once the client is in camp that will end.

Looks like the loophole you are looking at is can you sell your scouting to outfitters, and not be an "actual" guide
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
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5,003
BTW.

I thought this was a first amendment infringement. You swore up and down you were. "sharing" info.

Now "WORKING" for DIY guys?

I'd run 3 steps over the legal line. They could name this FOUNDERS LAW. Trying to find a cute, gray area, im guessing will land you on court.
 

Savage110

Member
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28
Founder: get an outfitter's license, or get a lawyer. You are not going to get anything here except an argument.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
10,079
If you aren't on an outfitters payroll and licensed as a guide...I'd say you're breaking the law.

If I were you, I wouldn't scout for an outfitter unless I was on their payroll, meaning being covered by their workman's comp, UI, taxes with held, etc., and also licensed by the state as a guide.

If you're going to continue to scout for money, may as well protect yourself.
That's one question I'd like to have an answer to. At what point is a "sell" no longer a "sell"? I'd also like to know what is a "geographic location"? In one sense, an entire hunting unit could be a "geographic location". Or a "geographic location" could be an actual gps coordinate.
That's a question that the G&F officer could not answer. There has to be an answer, right? How is someone expected to abide by a law/rule that is undefined in it's scope?
It's like having a speed limit that simply says, "don't go too fast", without a number. Some would just say, don't drive that road. But I want to know what the speed limit number is.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
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10,079
Founder: get an outfitter's license, or get a lawyer. You are not going to get anything here except an argument.
I'm not looking for an answer here! I'll hopefully get my answers from and G&F Officer or a lawyer and judge. Here, I'm just curious as to what others think about how the rule sounds and how they'd deal with it. Just conversation, debate, argument, entertainment.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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3,683
The scope of the geographic location will be interpreted by the court. Its not up to a Warden to interpret the law, that's what courts do. You're asking the wrong question to the wrong person.

If I were a Warden, and you provided any geographic location, even up to a particular hunting unit, for compensation...I'd scratch the ticket and let the courts decide.

That's the way it works.
 

DW

Long Time Member
Messages
13,440
No. I’ve worked as a contractor for an outfitter in the past and provided him with information on what I’ve found while scouting. My question is, am I breaking the law to do that again? Or because I’m working for an outfitter, am I ok? Could I do it the same, as a sub-contractor or do I need to be paid via paycheck?
Those are the questions I have?

Me working for DIY guys is totally different. That I know has to change.


Here is your specific question in your OP:

"The question is, if a guide is getting paid by an outfitter to scout an area and then reports what he's found and where so that the outfitter can pass that information onto other guides taking hunters out, did the guide just sell a geographic location to the outfitter?"

Your OP suggest you're seeking revenge.
 

Savage110

Member
Messages
28
I'm not looking for an answer here! I'll hopefully get my answers from and G&F Officer or a lawyer and judge. Here, I'm just curious as to what others think about how the rule sounds and how they'd deal with it. Just conversation, debate, argument, entertainment.
I can speak only for myself, but I feel your program puts too much pressure on critical areas that house big bucks. This affects breeding, lifecycle, and other factors besides simply harvest. This, in turn, depresses both numbers and quality in future years. But this is just my opinion.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
1,996
"The question is, if a guide is getting paid by an outfitter to scout an area and then reports what he's found and where so that the outfitter can pass that information onto other guides taking hunters out, did the guide just sell a geographic location to the outfitter?"


The answer is no and the question is reaching.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,018
"It amazes me how Wyoming hunters are the loudest to complain about the SFW and how they control the DWR and how the CWMU are terribly for hunting. But yet the WYOGA dictates Wyoming Fish and Game laws just as much as the SFW does in Utah."

WYOGA hasn't stolen 1000 tags from the public draw to pimp out bud!
No they have not.
They just control millions of acres of public land and won't let NR hunters hunt that millions of acres with out paying them.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
10,079
I can speak only for myself, but I feel your program puts too much pressure on critical areas that house big bucks. This affects breeding, lifecycle, and other factors besides simply harvest. This, in turn, depresses both numbers and quality in future years. But this is just my opinion.
Fair enough, but me not doing the scouting for an outfitter isn't going to change that. It's just like me not using a trailcam to scout, it's not going to change anything, someone will still be using a trailcam to scout.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,683
No they have not.
They just control millions of acres of public land and won't let NR hunters hunt that millions of acres with out paying them.

Wrong, 100% wrong. "They" don't control millions of acres of public land.

"They" control access to "their" wildlife...
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,683
Fair enough, but me not doing the scouting for an outfitter isn't going to change that. It's just like me not using a trailcam to scout, it's not going to change anything, someone will still be using a trailcam to scout.

That's failed logic, IMO.

Its like a guy seeing an average mule deer buck and killing it because, "If I don't shoot it, someone else will".

We all have the ability to impact the resource as much, or as little as we want. We all have the ability to make hunting personal for our reasons, not just do things because someone else is.

The laws that don't exist may be more important than those that do. Nobody is forcing you by law to scout and sell the information. Nobody is forcing you to give your knowledge away for free. Nobody is forcing you to put out trail cams.

The tough part for me in all this, is that for a guy that claims to care so deeply about mule deer, you sure have a strange way of showing it.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
10,079
Here is your specific question in your OP:

"The question is, if a guide is getting paid by an outfitter to scout an area and then reports what he's found and where so that the outfitter can pass that information onto other guides taking hunters out, did the guide just sell a geographic location to the outfitter?"

Your OP suggest you're seeking revenge.
No. I have no problem with outfitters and completely understand why they wouldn't want competition. I've worked for an outfitter while at the same time helping DIY hunters while the outfitter was lobbying to outlaw what I was doing with the DIY guy. For some of us, just because we differ on opinions doesn't mean we're bitter enemies wanting the other dead. I don't live in that world.
My OP is simply questioning a rule. A rule that is bundled with 3 other rules, and none of the 4 have listed any exceptions. So my question is simply, how do I or a guide or anyone know who is or isn't exempt from those rule(s)?

Three of them say "No person....".

Section 20. Use of Specialized Hunting Technologies and Equipment.
(a) No person shall use any device attached to a legal firearm, muzzleloader or archery equipment, capable of producing a thermal or infrared image, or other imaging outside the normal visible light spectrum, with the intent to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
(b) No person shall use any real-time video photography equipment, real-time thermal or infrared imaging device, or other real-time imaging device outside the normal visible light spectrum, capable of automatically transmitting an image, picture or video for remote viewing, with the intent to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
(c) A trail camera, or similar device, that can only store an image, picture or video inside the device, and which does not have the capability to automatically transmit images in real-time, is permissible for use in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
(d) No person shall sell or barter any geographic location information for any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison to aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
 

JimNv

Active Member
Messages
503
You always hear that these big outfitters like Lemon and Moss "buy" intel from any number of people out there. Are those people considered sub-contractors? If so, then they need to have business licenses. Those big heads coming out of the mountains and ranges are sat on for months till the right buyer comes along. I've always hated that aspect of hunting. Most of us cannot do this. Hunting is competitive enough. I think the Wyoming law is a good one, but I don't see how it can be enforced. I don't think it will detract anyone from selling their information.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,018
The scope of the geographic location will be interpreted by the court. Its not up to a Warden to interpret the law, that's what courts do. You're asking the wrong question to the wrong person.

If I were a Warden, and you provided any geographic location, even up to a particular hunting unit, for compensation...I'd scratch the ticket and let the courts decide.

That's the way it works.
If this law is interpreted they way you see it Buzz there is alot more businesses that will be effected by it than just founder.
Eastmans, Hunting Fool and any other consulting organization.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
1,996
If this law is interpreted they way you see it Buzz there is alot more businesses that will be effected by it than just founder.
Eastmans, Hunting Fool and any other consulting organization.
Only if they sell geographic locations of game animals...

Consulting groups suggesting areas won't be in violation.
 
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txhunter58

Long Time Member
Messages
7,144
I got an analogy for you founder. Two guys go out selling prescription pills. One is licensed, works for a company and gets a paycheck. The other guy doesn’t work for anyone, not licensed but provides the same pills in a different package. Ones a doctor, the others a drug dealer. Guess which one you are? I would think it’s obvious but to be clear you’re the doctor. Kidding, you’re the drug dealer.

Hope that helps.

Wow, I would expect a little better discussion from an adult. Are you one? Disagree with people, even the owner of the site, without name calling. Founder won't, but if I owned the site, you would be banned.
 

Geko42

Active Member
Messages
190
Guides dont need to tell the outfitter or other guides the location of anything. If the outfitter trusts and knows the ability of his guides they can just go to work hunting. Most outfitters use mostly the same guides yr after yr. Seasoned guides know the country very well
 

txhunter58

Long Time Member
Messages
7,144
Guides dont need to tell the outfitter or other guides the location of anything. If the outfitter trusts and knows the ability of his guides they can just go to work hunting. Most outfitters use mostly the same guides yr after yr. Seasoned guides know the country very well

Many outfitters employ “scouts”. They are not “guiding” but looking for animals for the outfitter.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
1,996
Many outfitters employ “scouts”. They are not “guiding” but looking for animals for the outfitter.
Many? Hardly. In Wyoming hiring "scouts" is a rare occurrence at best. But if a person is hired by an outfitter and is paid for game animal locations, it would be a violation of this regulation.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
5,003
My son is just doing the ethics part of hunters safety. It spent some time on "Slob Hunters". Not my phrase.

"Slob hunters bring negative attention to hunting through actions the non hunting public would see as unethical"

How do you think the non hunting public looks at selling GPS locations for trophy bucks?

I think the law was written broadly to try and limit the loopholes and gray area Founder is searching for.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
10,079
Many? Hardly. In Wyoming hiring "scouts" is a rare occurrence at best. But if a person is hired by an outfitter and is paid for game animal locations, it would be a violation of this regulation.
You’re wrong. Many outfitters in western Wyoming bring in a guide or two early, some very early, to begin looking for big bucks. Then they bring in more during the hunt and the information gathered by the early guide is shared with all others so they know where to hunt.
Just “going hunting” is a thing of the past. Robb Wiley was so successful by scouting that most hunters wanted to hunt with him. For others to keep up, they need to produce big stuff. To do so, they must know where big stuff lives. They scout, or they’ll die. It’s hard to show a guy an 18 inch 4 point and get him to fork over $7k to hunt when the guy down the road shows the same guy a 190 inch stud.
Outfitters scout and they hire people to help them scout.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
10,079
Only if they sell geographic locations of game animals...

Consulting groups suggesting areas won't be in violation.
If only you were someone of authority. You seem to know the secret size of a geographic location. That’s what I want to know.
 

Castnshoot

Very Active Member
Messages
1,048
Founder is this statement you just made what you really believe?

“Just “going hunting” is a thing of the past.”
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
10,079
Founder is this statement you just made what you really believe?

“Just “going hunting” is a thing of the past.”
Unfortunately, when it comes to a large chunk of hunts, yes. I think the amount of money and time people invest in the pursuit of trophy game is pretty solid proof. People don’t buy points for years and spend thousands of dollars every year to hunt out of state just to “go hunting”. And especially when it comes to guided hunts, as I was actually referring to, very much yes. Most guys are not spending $7k for a guided hunt just to “go hunting“. They spend it in hopes of a trophy animal.
You don’t agree?

I’ll admit, that’s why I buy points every year. It’s also why I hunt out of state. Not cause I just want to hunt, but I want to hunt big bucks where big bucks live. If I want to just hunt, there’s plenty of cheap opportunities here in Utah.
That make sense?
 
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rmanwill

Long Time Member
Messages
5,235
Founder, do what you need to do, to do it legally. Weather that be you become an outfitter, guide or work through someone that meets the legal definition.

After that it opens up alot more then just the bottom end of H and region G for you.

Then you can scout, outfit and even hunt even closer to the bedrooms of the current outfitters that pushed the Founder rule through.

Just saying 🤣😇🤔
 

Beulahsetters

Member
Messages
44
Unfortunately, when it comes to a large chunk of hunts, yes. I think the amount of money and time people invest in the pursuit of trophy game is pretty solid proof. People don’t buy points for years and spend thousands of dollars every year to hunt out of state just to “go hunting”. And especially when it comes to guided hunts, as I was actually referring to, very much yes. Most guys are not spending $7k for a guided hunt just to “go hunting“. They spend it in hopes of a trophy animal.
You don’t agree?

I’ll admit, that’s why I buy points every year. It’s also why I hunt out of state. Not cause I just want to hunt, but I want to hunt big bucks where big bucks live. If I want to just hunt, there’s plenty of cheap opportunities here in Utah.
That make sense?
I disagree with you founder on this 100%. I am a Marine OIF veteran with service connection injuries due to Iraq. I spend several hundreds dollars a year building points just so i can "Go Hunt" every year and some years i dont draw anything. I have Idaho as an option for DAV NR fees every year but also apply for good areas in other States for a great hunt and better chance at a bigger deer. To be honest 90% of me just likes to do things on my own and do my own research kinda build my own game plan. I hike in deep most hunts and pitch a 1 or 2 man tent if my dad or one of my brothers wants to tag along. 10% wants a big buck but if it doesnt happen it doesnt. Ive killed a few really nice bucks, 1 giant, and few average bucks also have ate many tags. I love forums where i can share my experiences with others free and get advice from them for free. Its not for me all about yhe Big Buck its about the challeng3 and gettong my boots muddy and just enjoyinh nature. Seeing Western Skys at Night and stars and just hopeful for a chance at a nice deer but its not all about spending thousands and all about that big deer.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
5,003
Still confused.

I thought scouting sevices was the "same as talking to your friend in a bar"

Or that it was "sharing"

Now today we learn it's about $$$.

One guy even said he "just wants to cover expenses"

Imagine everyone's surprise to find out it is about what everyone knows it's about, profit.

As a guy who carrys a license from the state. Liability insurance. All the "awesome" fees and taxes that go with it, I have always seen it for what it is. Someone running illegal.

If the state of Wyoming wanted scouting services tgey would have created a category for it. They OBVIOUSLY don't.

Im not wild about the scouting for point sharing scheme. The cutting legsl businesses scheme is just that, a scheme.

And im no fan of guides\outfitters on piblic land to start with.
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
10,079
I disagree with you founder on this 100%. I am a Marine OIF veteran with service connection injuries due to Iraq. I spend several hundreds dollars a year building points just so i can "Go Hunt" every year and some years i dont draw anything. I have Idaho as an option for DAV NR fees every year but also apply for good areas in other States for a great hunt and better chance at a bigger deer. To be honest 90% of me just likes to do things on my own and do my own research kinda build my own game plan. I hike in deep most hunts and pitch a 1 or 2 man tent if my dad or one of my brothers wants to tag along. 10% wants a big buck but if it doesnt happen it doesnt. Ive killed a few really nice bucks, 1 giant, and few average bucks also have ate many tags. I love forums where i can share my experiences with others free and get advice from them for free. Its not for me all about yhe Big Buck its about the challeng3 and gettong my boots muddy and just enjoyinh nature. Seeing Western Skys at Night and stars and just hopeful for a chance at a nice deer but its not all about spending thousands and all about that big deer.
No one ever said hunting is “all about the Big Buck”, but just as YOU want a chance at a bigger deer, so do many others. Guys going on guided hunts are the same.
You disagree with me 100% that people buy points to hunt better areas, but you buy points to hunt where you have a “better chance at a bigger deer”. ???
Or do you disagree that many people spending $7k for a guided hunt are doing so “just to go hunt” and haven’t internet in bigger animals?
 

Slightlysober

Very Active Member
Messages
1,541
Wow, I would expect a little better discussion from an adult. Are you one? Disagree with people, even the owner of the site, without name calling. Founder won't, but if I owned the site, you would be banned.
It’s an analogy tx. I knew you Texans have thin skin but wow! Guess I shouldn’t expect anything less from a high fencer.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
1,996
You’re wrong. Many outfitters in western Wyoming bring in a guide or two early, some very early, to begin looking for big bucks. Then they bring in more during the hunt and the information gathered by the early guide is shared with all others so they know where to hunt.
Just “going hunting” is a thing of the past. Robb Wiley was so successful by scouting that most hunters wanted to hunt with him. For others to keep up, they need to produce big stuff. To do so, they must know where big stuff lives. They scout, or they’ll die. It’s hard to show a guy an 18 inch 4 point and get him to fork over $7k to hunt when the guy down the road shows the same guy a 190 inch stud.
Outfitters scout and they hire people to help them scout.
I'm not wrong, even you call them guides. Guides are paid for a variety of services they perform for the outfitter. One of which is scouting. Trust me, no game warden is going to write up an outfitters guide if that guide finds a big deer and tells the outfitter where it is.

But if Founder gives his buddy Sy locations of big deer for sale or barter, that's going to be a ticket for Founder.

One other thing; it's obvious you are going to do everything in your power to skirt this new law. Rather than do it right and get licensed, you are giving "glassing locations" to your clients.:ROFLMAO: Beware of who your clients are Brian, you just might get set up by G&F. They run lots of sting operations every year and making an example of someone with this new law is probably in the crosshairs.
 

saddlesorerider

Active Member
Messages
106
(d) No person shall sell or barter any geographic location information for any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison to aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
I agree with Notdonhuntings remark about Eastmans, Hunting fool, and Epic. They all give more than unit info. They give area specific locations in their magazines and consulting services when you call them. I talked to both Epic and Huntinfool before applying for NV and Utah this year. They are certainly selling this info as it's part of their service when they sell you the magazines.
It's a slippery slope and First Amendment Rights.

And just because Founder sells me the area where he saw a 400 in bull doesn't mean the bull will be there three weeks from now unless he tied it to a tree.
 

Homer

Long Time Member
Messages
8,649
The question is still the same, if a guide is getting paid by an outfitter to scout an area and then reports what he's found and where so that the outfitter can pass that information onto other guides taking hunters out, did the guide just sell a geographic location to the outfitter?

Should one assume that a licensed guide is exempt from the rule? Even though the rule doesn’t point that out? How is one to know who is or isn’t exempt from the rule?

I’m talking with G&F officer in hopes of a complete understanding of who the rule does or doesn’t apply to. The rule says what it says.

New rule in Wyoming, "No person shall sell or barter any geographic location information for any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison to aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison."
The legal statute calls for prohibiting, "The selling of wildlife geographic locations."

“No person”. Who does or doesn’t count as a person?
“Selling”. Does being paid by paycheck constitute selling? Or does only other sorts of checks count as selling?
I just want to know the facts. Like everyone, I can guess, but laws usually aren’t geared around taking a good guess and hope you’re right.

if a guy works at a gold mine to find gold....for the mine owner and gets a paycheck to do it....did he sell gold to the mine owner??
 

eelgrass

Long Time Member
Messages
25,820
Founder, does this mean you're not going to share scouting videos this year since there will be no potential sale? :)

They do draw interest and membership to this site, so in a way it's a financial benefit to you.

If you offer to send someone in the right geographical location in exchange for point sharing, is that the same as barter, which is specifically illegal under this law?
 

PLK

Active Member
Messages
249
Founder,

I see what you are saying and think the new rule is very poorly written based upon the following information:
DD45CEC8-5149-48CE-A4A3-F89D8A1F0DE6.jpeg
9845A52D-4A32-4C4C-9793-1C694DA4A58A.jpeg

By definition, commercial operations or business are people.

Basically the manner in which the new law is written, if the Wyoming Game and Fish wanted the outfitters and their guides to be exempt from the new rule, they should have written the law differently such as this.

“No Person, with the exception of licensed professional guides and outfitters, shall sell or barter.........”

However, I still think the intent of the new rule was to prohibit unlicensed outfitters and guides from operating a big game scouting business in Wyoming. I don’t think the intent was to make it illegal for licensed Wyoming outfitters and guides to do the same.

Also, you could be an independent contractor working for a Wyoming licensed outfitter and obtain a Wyoming Guide License (see attachment)
B189FF25-0791-4952-A900-0B8D63851598.jpeg

Perhaps you could get your guides license while operating under an independent contract with a licensed outfitter. The scouting information that you gather would then most likely be owned by the licensed outfitter because he paid you for it. Under this scenario, I still don’t think that you would be able to sell this information as part of your own consulting business and I don’t think the licensed outfitter would allow you to be in competition with him by sending your own clients or hunting yourself in his permitted area. Perhaps the outfitter would allow you to hunt the area personally once all of his paying clients had either filled their tags or were done for the season. However, you would be able to get paid by the outfitter and recoup your expenses plus whatever other wages you agreed to in your independent contract.

Just my 2 cents.
 

PLK

Active Member
Messages
249
Lostinoregon,

Don’t you agree that the intent of the new rule was to keep unlicensed outfitters and guides (such as Founder) from being able to sell or barter any geographical location of a big game animal.....

Perhaps you could expand upon your previous post. Thanks
 

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
10,079
Founder,

I see what you are saying and think the new rule is very poorly written based upon the following information:View attachment 6534View attachment 6535
By definition, commercial operations or business are people.

Basically the manner in which the new law is written, if the Wyoming Game and Fish wanted the outfitters and their guides to be exempt from the new rule, they should have written the law differently such as this.

“No Person, with the exception of licensed professional guides and outfitters, shall sell or barter.........”

However, I still think the intent of the new rule was to prohibit unlicensed outfitters and guides from operating a big game scouting business in Wyoming. I don’t think the intent was to make it illegal for licensed Wyoming outfitters and guides to do the same.

Also, you could be an independent contractor working for a Wyoming licensed outfitter and obtain a Wyoming Guide License (see attachment)View attachment 6536
Perhaps you could get your guides license while operating under an independent contract with a licensed outfitter. The scouting information that you gather would then most likely be owned by the licensed outfitter because he paid you for it. Under this scenario, I still don’t think that you would be able to sell this information as part of your own consulting business and I don’t think the licensed outfitter would allow you to be in competition with him by sending your own clients or hunting yourself in his permitted area. Perhaps the outfitter would allow you to hunt the area personally once all of his paying clients had either filled their tags or were done for the season. However, you would be able to get paid by the outfitter and recoup your expenses plus whatever other wages you agreed to in your independent contract.

Just my 2 cents.
That’s the question I’m waiting for an answer on from F&G. Is a “guide” exempt and does a guide need to be employed or does sub-contractor work?
I have other questions that I’m hoping to get answers to as well regarding information I can provide to DIY hunters. The “size” of a geographic location is one. Clarification is what I’m wanting.
 
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