Youth Muzzle Gun Big Elk Hunt Coming

[Hunt4more]

My son has a youth muzzle hunt in unit 15 in October. I am a 25 year archery guy but never shot a muzzle loaded. My son is 15, 5'8" 135 pounds. We can put a scope on the gun and shoot all the bells and whistles from what I understand in NM. I was looking at a TC Triumph at Sportsman Warehouse tonight for $479.00. It's the break open style. Gun has a nice short stock for my son. FULL DISCLOSURE - I know nothing about shooting muzzleloaders. What would be a good option for us to get going with. We have a once in a lifetime opportunity coming in October and need as much range time as possible. I would like my boy to be able to shoot out to 250 yards if possible with the ML.

 

[buckhorn]

A 250 yard elk load is going to pack a lot of punch! By that I mean recoil.
Keep that in mind when shopping for a gun.

 

[roadrunner]

50 cal, 260 gr slug minimum, Blackhorn 209 powder @ 100 grs volumetric to start.

As much shooting as you'll be doing, go with something readily available like Hornady or Barnes. I would suggest using either Harvester or MMP sabots (Barnes uses MMP).

Also, if you think you'll be doing a longer range shot, try to find a bullet that has a high a BC as possible. For that, check out Precision Rifle Bullets.

 

[Hunt4more]

I really do like Barnes bullets for rifle.

 

[roadrunner]

I really do like Barnes bullets for rifle.

Probably what I'd use if I wasn't using PRB's at this time...

 

[txhunter58]

No, just no

Do not try and make him shoot an elk at 250 yards with a muzzleloader. This is NOT a centerfire rifle.

You already admitted you don’t know the first thing about them.....so PLEASE limit distances for this hunt. 150 yards would be a good goal.

 

[Hunt4more]

Tx Hunter58, yes, yes yes, 150 yards is plenty for him and in reality very reasonable distance for a rutting bull elk. Many times in the pines it's close combat on those elk. Plenty of practice time at the range will tell us a lot.

 

[txhunter58]

The triumph is a good gun IF you never want to hunt Colorado or any other state that requires conicals (no sabots). Due to its QLA (false muzzle) it may not shoot conicals well. T/C will even tell you that. Otherwise it is generally an accurate gun that is easy to load and shoot. Couple other guns to look at are the CVA optima V2 and Accura V2. They are reasonably priced and generally shoot both sabots and conicals well. Knights are good shooters too but a bit pricey. The triumph will shoot BH 209 without modification but I think the others may need a breechplug conversion.

Specifically for NM, I would def use BH 209 loose powder. Even if you use another sub, I just like loose powder better. Easier to work up a custom load for that gun. People will tell you specific powders and specific loads, but you have to find what that gun likes. Like I said, this is not a centerfire rifle and you have to experiment to find what that works in that particular gun.

Powders: first of all, when people tell you to use “100 gr” of a powder, they are taking VOLUME. Not weight. Some people will weigh out powder, but those amounts will be different. For instance, the 100 gr of BH 209 mentioned above would be about 67 gr weighed. I have never felt the need to weigh loads. Volume has always been accurate for me

Real black, pyrodex, pyrodex pellets, and 777 pellets are basically equivalent in power. However loose 777 and BH 209 are aprox 15% stronger than the first ones mentioned. And then there is also ffg and fffg with 777. Fffg is smaller granules and therefore slightly stronger than ffg. In pyrodex, they don’t use the ffg system. However pyrodex P is smaller granules and is equivalent to fffg

But I LOVE BH 209 for several reasons: it is cleaner and you can shoot many shots without swabbing the barrel once. ALL others will have to be swabbed between each shot. Also it is less corrosive than the other powders. They all need to be cleaned the same day you shoot it to prevent rust. Whereas, with BH, if you have to wait until tomorrow to clean, you would still be ok

If you use BH 209, I would start around 75-80 gr to get your feet wet with load that doesn’t recoil too bad. As I said, this powder is more powerful than Black powder and so 85 gr is equivalent to about 100 gr of other regular powders. You prob won’t need to exceed 100 gr of BH for a hunting load. If you do, the recoil gets up there pretty good. NEVER exceed around 120 gr of BH because that would be equivalent to about 150 gr of regular powders (which is max load for most guns). My elk load is 90-95 gr of BH 209 but that is with a 350 gr bullet.

 

[txhunter58]

Bullets: I would recommend to start with Barnes in 290 gr: https://www.cabelas.com/product/sho...-and-spit-fire-mz-and-tmz/740773.uts?slotId=5

These bullets should do the job well. They are what I plan to use when I get picked for Utah. Currently I only hunt Colorado so can only use conicals.

A muzzleloader hunter with a lot more experience than I ( Jim Shockey) says if you use 100 gr of powder and a 300 gr bullet, you can kill any animal in North America. So 90 gr of BH 209 and the 290 Barnes would be in that range. And that should be relatively flat shooting as well. Some people use the 250, Barnes, and I would for deer, but I just like the bigger bullet for elk

This site (monster Muleys) is a good one, but there are better ones for muzzleloading. I will PM you one to look at. Lots of MZ guys there who are very helpful with newbies.

 

[txhunter58]

When you start shooting, as I said, start with about 75 or 80 gr to get a feel for it and learn the basics of loading etc. once you have the system down, then go up by five gr and shoot three times to see how accurate that load is. The go up again by 5 gr and shoot Three times again. And repeat again. I suspect you will find a good load between 90-100 gr of powder. Don’t be fooled by the “magnum” hype. 90-100 gr is more than adequate power and should be fairly flat shooting for up to 150 and even 200 yards.

 

[roadrunner]

Whew!

BeastN - if you decide to use BH209, go to their website for published data on volumetric vs weight. It will show weight at 70% volumetric.

FWIW, I am shooting a Traditions Vortek, 240 gr PRB (40 cal bullet with 50 cal sabot), 70 grs by weight BH209, and cutting the same hole at 150 yds.

Did not work up a "custom load". BH209 is pretty forgiving...

 

[txhunter58]

BH is indeed a great powder but I have found different guns to be the determining factor. His gun may shoot 100 gr great, but it will be a good idea to start low for his son the get use to the gun and how it shoots before increasing the powder. 100 gr (70 gr by weight) will pack a pretty good recoil and it would be better to learn how to shoot with less.

Nothing wrong with measuring out powder by weight. Certainly a slightly more accurate way to measure. But not at the range. I suggest using volume to learn to shoot, then if he wants to measure weight for hunting loads go for it.

 

[Hunt4more]

Since we will be using this gun primarily in New Mexico, which has very liberal muzzle loader laws, which gun would you recommend for elk? We want to take advantage of the laws in NM, even if they handcuff him in other states. This maybe his one and done for a caliber of hunt that we will get in Unit 15 for youth elk.

 

[txhunter58]

The Triumph should do well for him with sabots and a scope. I think they still guarantee accuracy. He may be one and done in NM, but if he is hooked, you may want to take him muzzy hunting in Colorado the following year. Youth gets preference on drawing tags and only $100 for youth elk! ?

I don’t own a CVA but people speak highly of them, especially the Acura. They should be good for sabots and conicals. Just be sure the gun you buy is tapped for scope and open sights If you go that route. Read “inline” forum on the site I Sent you. And people are good for answering questions on there. MANY more smokepole guys there than here.

 

[Hunt4more]

TX I got your pm. Thanks. The sabots are are the bullets that look more like a rifle bullet with a twist. Conical? You see it's all Chinese to me at the moment but I'll jump on the site you sent and start reading up... Thanks a ton for your time helping out a newbie to the trade.

 

[txhunter58]

Sabots are smaller than bore because they are in a plastic sabot sleeve. Like the Barnes link I sent you. A sabot is what you want to use in NM. Better constructed bullets like the Barnes and are more aerodynamic.

Conicals are full bore and no plastic sleeve. The actual bullet engages the riflings.
Whatever you do, don’t use powerbelts on this hunt. They are very accurate but are very soft lead and will come apart if pushed too hard or hit something hard.

 

[txhunter58]

Also read the “newbies” section

 

[roadrunner]

As far as volumetric goes (for at the range and/or hunting situation), I weighed out the 70 grs, then put it into a volumetric powder measure flask and adjusted the stop to be the "same" each time.

Normally, I just weigh out a dozen pre-measured charges to head to the range. Where the volumetric comes in as an advantage is trying to see if 95, 100, 105, etc performs better for the slug you're shooting while at the range. When I do go hunting, I also bring along 20 pre-measured charges of what I'm shooting.

I do believe the 70 grs by weight is probably the maximum for the 240 gr bullet I'm using for smaller game such as deer and antelope.

Reason why all this stuff matters is the weight of the bullet, twist of the barrel, length of the barrel, burn of the powder and how it burns relative to the flash hole on the breach plug, the primer used, sabot and the corresponding pressure seal, friction (negligible), etc. And then, do you swab with a "spit patch" in between shots, or do you do a foul shot off a clean barrel, shoot two dirty, clean and repeat...

Muzzleloaders are a pain, just like archery. Guess that's why we do it!

 

[txhunter58]

With BH 209 I have shot up to 30 shots at the range without swabbing once with no issues in accuracy. But I shoot only conicals. May be different for sabots.
Roadrunner, you use an actual “spit patch”’with BH 209? I was taught never to do that because it is not water soluble. I do use a real spit patch (my own) with every other powder but after each shot.

 

[txhunter58]

That brings up another issue. BH 209 builds up a hard residue in the breechplug that has to be cleaned after each shooting session. With a drill bit! But only by hand.

read this:

Blackhorn 209 – Hodgdon Powder Company

www.blackhorn209.com

 

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner, you use an actual “spit patch”’with BH 209?

No, that's why it's in italics. If I feel inclined to swab the barrel, I'll pull the breech and run a Tompson No. 13 damp patch through the barrel around 3 times, run a dry patch through twice, and go back to shooting.

 

[pushin_30]

Like txtunter said "he might get addicted" lol
muzzle loader hunting is a blast! the tc is a great gun, most important thing for a youngster is the fit of the gun LOP if it comfortable for them they will shoot it a lot better!
My tc shoots the 290 TMZ well great bullet
good luck and keep us posted

 

[Cahunter805]

Every TC I’ve shoot or buddies have does very well with BH209, Barnes 290TMZ bullets and Harvestor yellow sabots Fed 209M primer. You can weigh out your BH209 using a scale and there is a conversion guide on their website for volume to grains. Work up a few loads and see what your muzzy likes.
Id go with the TC triumph or a Rem700 ultimate with the arrowhead conversion breech plug.