Spike's effects on the state??

C

Cam@strawberry

Very Active Member
Messages
2,289
Now that the majority of the state is open to spike hunters what will happen in 3-4 years with the quality? With the hunters spread out on more units less bulls will be killed in the units like the wasatch, so what will this do in a couple of few years?? im thinkin that the bull to cow ratio on the premium units will go down a bit but on units that were spike only previously will go up a bit with less hunters. What do the rest of you internet biologists think? ;-)
littlebeaver.jpg


Wildlife population control specialist
 
I agree Berry, but i think in general most will continue to hunt where they always have especially after a year or two. I truly hope that the pressure is less on the Manti and Wasatch. They could use a little break on the recruitment end!!
 
Rumor is that LE tags for bulls will be increased on the "old" spike units-Wasatch, Manti, etc...

I think for the most part quality is going to continue to slip all across the state.

Looks like we hit our peak in '06-'07.
 
It certainly makes sense that it will help the BC ratio on heavily hunted spike units like the Wasatch and Manti, but the number of limited bull permits in those units are so high that I am not sure it is going to make a BIG difference on Bull quality.
I think a good number of guys will head to the Premium units to kill a spike this year, just to experience the sight of BIG Bulls.
I also know it makes biological sense to kill some spikes, but it doesn't appear that there will be any limit on any unit and if great units get hammered it will stink. For a guy with 14 bonus points, it kind of sucks to think I have been saving points so the quality will go down.
 
Kinda wish that they could weed out a few of the tweener bulls, the 2-5 points, leave the sixes in place so that they can keep breeding and also growing. Lower the over all tags after a little while. Let less of the bulls make it to maturity but, leave more of the bigger bulls in place to hunt and breed. i dunno exactely how to do it but sure would be nice to see a few more of the adolesant bulls removed instead of the yearlings and mature bulls.
littlebeaver.jpg


Wildlife population control specialist
 
im not looking foward to competing with all the spike hunters. i think it will become harder with more pressure. and i see the quality slipping. all the more reason to burn my points next year and get out of dodge!
 
There is a very big difference between quality and quantity! I don't see how a spike hunt could ever lower quality?? Look at the arizona strip. Very very few deer but some of the biggest bucks in the world. Then look at the book cliffs. Tons and tons of bucks but the quality is no where near the quality of the strip.

The spike hunt will lower the amount of bulls on some units DUH!!! That is exactly what those units need. We have way too many bulls on many of our units. If you harvest a few recruitments then we will have a healthy number of bulls. I don't think that an extra 1500 tags spread over millions of acres can affect much of anything.

Many people are implying that the wasatch and manti units need help on the recruitment end. Look at the bull to cow ratio. Those units have a very healthy bull to cow ratio while many other units have a bloated unhealthy bull to cow ratio. Personally i think that the reason quality has been falling on manti and wasatch is because of the late rifle hunts.

I agree with berry. It would be nice to kill off some of the "tweener" bulls 2-5 points. Wouldn't it be so cool if the division would create a hunt where they only went after bulls five points and smaller? oh wait. . . they did try that and abolished it before it would take affect. I think instead of crying over the spike hunt we should try to re-instate the management bull hunts. Preferably pre rut.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-08 AT 07:52PM (MST)[p] Elk hunting glory days are over. We will now be more in line with the other western states. Our elk herd will continue fall until a 350 bull is once again the giant of giants.
If there are any DWR employees, Biologists, or any other !&#* who had their hand in the demise of our elk herd reading this, eat sht and die mf'ers. Have your opportunity. Kill your 300 bull and go home smiling dip sh!ts.
WTF? Go to colorado if you want to hunt "just a Bull".
I guess we can have a sh!t elk herd to match our Sh!t deer herd.
This post will last about as long as that spike who was going to grow up to be a 400" pahvant bull.





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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
NeverStop - I see the point you are trying to make but I am one that thinks you will see a downward trend in 4-5 years because of the spikes we are killing. Of course there will always be the preverbial 400" bull wandering around the unit but the number of huge mature bulls will decrease over the next 4-5 years to the point where you will be lucky to see one. I think ktc was on to something a couple of months ago when he posed the question regarding the number of 400" bulls killed this year. It as an off year but the number of sitings was down too. I was just curious where the "1500 tags" came from. Unlimited archery, and the cap on the spike rifle hunts didn't change at all. It's a lot more than 1500. If that's all it was, you're right, there would be no need for worry. My conversations with other outfitters and hardcore hunters has come to the same conclusion every time. Our huge bull days are numbered. Now, if you're an opportunist then that's great, you got exactly what you wanted. If you're a guy that's been putting in for these LE areas for years and are sitting in the max point pool, I would be pissed as hell right now. It will be interesting to see but I sure hope I don't have to start buying a Colorado elk tag along with my deer tag.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
AN ATTABOY FOR NUNYA!!!

TELL EM bobcat SAID THE SAME THING!!!

BUNCH OF GREEDY BASTAGES!!!

YOU SCREW ME OUT OF A DECENT BULL & I'LL REMEMBER IT LIKE AN ELEPHANT!!!

BUNCH OF PISSCUTTIN JACK-#####!!!

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
Wow Neverstophuntin you must be a UDWR biologist. Comparing the strip to the Book cliffs. WTF?
Maybe there are giant deer on the strip because they can get old with out some DIP shizz from Ut. shooting them when they are a 20" 4x4 out his truck window. Maybe the genetics are about a thousand times better on the strip than the books. Maybe there are a million acres of desolate country for a giant buck to live and grow old on the strip. Tell me where they can live and grow old on the Pahvant esecially if they cant even make it past spike hood.
The only freakin thing the UDWR hasnt come up with is a nursing calf hunt. Calves must be shot while suckling their mother teat. That will probably be next.


---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
YOU'RE WRONG ON THAT ONE NUNYA!!!

THEY'VE HAD MOTL HUNTS FOR QUITE SOME TIME!!!

((( MILK ON THE LIPPS!!! )))

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
TUTTLE!!!

YOU'D BETTER PAY ATTENTION!!!

THEY TRIED IT!!!

AND IT FAILED!!!

JUST LIKE I SAID IT WOULD!!!



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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
AWLB- You are right. In the next 4-5 years we are going to see a downward trend in the number of bulls. But that is exactly what this state needs. With some units having bull to cow ratios close to 1:1 This state needs to have less bulls or we are headed for a big crash! I don't think however that big bulls will be as rare as people are making it sound. If we kill some spikes and get the bull to cow ratio back to a healthy 35 bulls per 100 cows there are still going to be some giants. Not as many as now but they will still be there. On the surface we were in the heydays of elk hunting in 06-07 but in reality we can't keep bull to cow ratios as high as they have been.

This year was very hard for elk hunting and there was a noticable decrease in giant bulls harvested but i don't think all of our big bulls disappeared in one year. Many other states had a very hard elk hunt as well. The bulls that i have seen killed in arizona on the late hunts recently are far better then many of the bulls killed during the rut. I personally think the big bulls are still out there and i think this will be a phenomenal year for shed hunters. We'll have to wait until april to know for sure but that is my bet.

The 1500 came from the increase in rifle tags. Last year the DWR sold 11,000 rifle spike tags. This year they capped it at 12,500 and opened millions of acres to hunt. With the low success rate on spike hunts only about 240 more spikes will die this year. 240 spikes and millions of acres doesn't scare me one bit. The archery tags will be unlimited but they have an even lower success rate and many of the archery hunters choose to harvest cows.

Worst case scenario if the rifle success rate went way up and tons of archery hunters killed spikes i think very worst case 400 spikes will be killed across the entire state. We still need to kill a few thousand more bulls state wide to have a healthy heard.
 
Calm down little kitty. Don't get your spots in a bunch. I'm just trying to look at the other side of things.

What do you mean they tried it?
 
BIG CRASH MY ASS!!!

THE ONLY CRASH YOU'RE GONNA SEE IS THE CRASH OF TROPHY BULLS!!!

MARK IT DOWN IN THE MM DIARY!!!

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
YOU'D BETTER PAY ATTENTION!!!

THEY TRIED IT & IT FAILED MISERABLY!!!

493c3bb236d04499.jpg


REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
Nunya. I'm far from a dwr biologist i'm just pointing out the fact that quality has nothing to do with quantity.

BTW. The dwr doesn't need a nursing calf hunt because hundreds of people are out right now shooting pregnant cow elk. Thats even worse imo. And the reason they are killing cows is because we have too many elk. There is a limit. If you want to attack something attack the limit of elk allowed in this state. If you want to keep the current amount of bulls we have now then we need more cows to compensate.
 
Show him the other side of it BESS!

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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
THE LE ELK MANAGEMENT HUNTS!!!

YOU RELATED TO THE TUTTLE THAT WAS IN THE DWR???


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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
To make giant bucks and bulls quantity has every thing to do with quality. You must have either a quantity of remote desolate habitat for them to reach their prime or a quantity of mature animals so some may reach prime age with out getting their self killed. Utah has very little remote habitat. (half a mile from your truck is not remote)
Age is not everything but it is the prime factor.




---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
If we are all complaining about the elk herds and what is going to happen, how do we get it passed to increase elk numbers so we don't continue in the current trend?
 
>YOU RELATED TO THE TUTTLE THAT
>WAS IN THE DWR???
>

Not that i'm aware of.

You are right, they tried management hunts but not long enough to tell if they were working or not. I personally think that if the management hunts were pre rut they could be a very good thing.
 
NUNYA- You are right, if we have a ton of bulls there are always going to be more giants. But you can't just forget about carrying capacity and a healthy herd. When the elk herd is over objective and the bull to cow ratio is close to 1:1 something has got to give.
 
"I'M RIGHT"???

MUST BE THE FIRST TIME IN MM HISTORY!!!

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
AND LET ME ASK ONE QUESTION???

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK GOT THE BULL TO COW RATIO AT THIS SO CALLED 1 TO 1 RATIO???



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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
>AND LET ME ASK ONE QUESTION???
>
>
>WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK
>GOT THE BULL TO COW
>RATIO AT THIS SO CALLED
>1 TO 1 RATIO???
>


The same thing that got the bonus point pool so far behind. We haven't been issuing as many tags as we should.

Personally i think the reason utah is the way it is: We have an exploding elk population and we need to harvest more bulls. The problem with harvesting more bulls is that utah puts its rifle elk hunt in prime rut. When you have the rifle hunt in prime rut they have an easier time at harvesting the top end bulls on a unit. We all want trophy bulls so the only way we can accomplish that is to severely limit the amount of tags. By limiting the tags we have allowed too many bulls to survive and now the ratios are out of whack.

Personally i don't really have a problem with the rifle elk hunt in the rut. But if that is how it is going to be we need to find a way to kill more bulls and hopefully not kill the cream of the crop. One way to do this was the management hunts (which i was in favor of) and another way to kill more bulls without hurting quality is kill some spikes.

We kill some spikes and we are still going to have plent of bulls to go around.
 
WELL TUTTLE!!!

YOU'RE MORE SECLUDED THAN ME & NUNYA FIGURED!!!

JUST SO YOU KNOW!!!

ELK NUMBERS ARE WAY DOWN FROM WHAT THEY WERE IN ALOT OF PLACES!!!

A COUPLE OF LE UNITS WERE SHOT CLEAR OUT DUE TO GREED & PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

ONE OF THE SHOT OUT UNITS HAS BEEN RECOVERING SOMEWHAT THE LAST FEW YEARS!!!

I GUESS YOU DON'T REALIZE IT WAS YEARS WORTH OF "COW-KILLER" HUNTS & "GREED" THAT GOT THE BULL TO COW RATIO'S WHERE THEY ARE TODAY???

I CAN TELL RIGHT NOW YOU'RE A GUY THAT WILL SUCK IN ANY INFO THE UDWR THROWS AT YOU!!!

WAKE UP & GET A GRIP!!!

IF YOU THINK KILLING THE YOUNG BULLS WHICH ARE WAY MORE VULNERABLE & WAY EASY FOR TARDS TO KILL IS THE ANSWER FOR THE FIX YOU ARE UP IN THE NIGHT!!!

I WANT EVERYBODY TO MARK ME & NUNYAS WORDS IN THEIR DIARIES!!!

UTAH LE ELK UNITS ARE ON A DOWNFALL WITH THE EXISTING & UPCOMING GREEDY PISS POOR MANAGEMENT PLANS,MARK MY WORD ON IT!!!

BY THE WAY,JUST FOR YOUR INFO,MANAGEMENT HUNTS FAILED ON LE ELK UNITS & NOW THEY'RE GONNA TRY THEM ON LE DEER UNITS,THEY WILL FAIL,PEOPLE WILL CHEAT AND IT ALL RELATES BACK TO THE UDWR LOOKING FOR MORE GREEDY WAYS TO GENERATE MORE MONEY & NOT GAF ABOUT QUALITY GAME HERDS!!!

IF IN DOUBT,READ POST # 7!!!

IF IN DOUBT,READ POST # 7 AGAIN!!!

IF IN DOUBT,READ THE ORIGINAL POST # 7 BEFORE IT WAS EDITED!!!

IF STILL IN DOUBT,READ POST NUMBER 7 BEFORE IT WAS EDITED & ALL THE TRUTHFUL VULGARITY WAS EDITED FROM THE POST,IT MADE MUCH BETTER SENSE THEN THAN IT DOES NOW!!!

IF STILL IN DOUBT OF WHAT POST # 7 MEANS,YOU'VE BEEN BRAIN WASHED BY OUR OWN DWR & YOU MIGHT TRY SPENDING MORE TIME IN THE FIELD GETTING A FEEL FOR HOW IT USE TO BE/IS TODAY & HOW IT CHANGES VERY QUICKLY DUE TO GREED & POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!





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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
I'll bet Nevada is licking their chops. To much pressure on the SW Desert and those elk will be in Nevada lickity split. What a joke.
 
"But that is exactly what this state needs. With some units having bull to cow ratios close to 1:1 This state needs to have less bulls or we are headed for a big crash! I don't think however that big bulls will be as rare as people are making it sound." NeverStopHunting

I couldn't disagree more there Tutt. You can't issue more big bull tags AND start hunting the spikes too. Now you're widdling away at both ends. Example - the Wasatch has seen an increase in tags every year for the past 7 years and we continue to hunt the spikes. I know I'm not alone in the thought that there has been a big decrease in the amount of big bulls running around that unit. There are a lot of bulls in the 280-340 class range but the number of bigger bulls has definately decreased. That's because we have been killing bulls at both ends of the age group. Tell me how you think you are going to keep the quality of bulls if you shoot the young and the old? Makes absolutely no sense to me.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
I think your right peak...everyone I've talked to in St. George is all headed to the peaks to whack a spike. The days of Utah being the best trophy elk state are over for sure.
 
If you have too many bulls in Utah we will trade you wolves for bulls. Just wait till the wolves move in. You will wonder where any elk are. Ron
 
it ain't too hard to realize that if you target all the age groups you can kill a whole heck of a lot bulls but still let more of them make it to maturity. IE, you have say 3,000 bulls on a unit, 1000 spikes, 1500 tweeners, and 500 mature bulls, there should be 2500 huntable bulls, general season bulls. So instead of hunting issuing say 8-900 spike tags issue 2000, spread them out amongst all the age groups, for all the bulls. say ya get a GENEROUS 75% success rate you still get a quarter, at least of every age group makin it thru. Basically the numbers on this come out to be,1000 tweener bulls and spikes makin thru to the next year. you have the next years crop still to come and you still have the 500 mature bulls to factor in and hunt. So based on what i got out of those say you have 3000 cows on the unit. for a total pop before hunts of 6000 thats a 1:1 ratio trimmed down to a 1:3 ratio. You still have more than enough bulls to breed so you ought to get a healthy return every year as well. Now i'm throughly confused by what i just came up with but it sure makes sense in my mind.

Its to early to do math like this so if its a jacked up idea feel free to say so.

littlebeaver.jpg


Wildlife population control specialist
 
There isn't a late bull hunt on the Wasatch-hasn't been one for a couple of years.

The Wasatch is hurting because we hammer the ###@it out of it for everything that moves.
 
I am a HUGE supporter of killing more bulls, but they should NOT be yearlings.

NeverStopHunting, you said you guess the total number of spikes killed will be around 400. Where did you come up with that number? I just looked at the DWR reports and it shows that 2000+ spikes are killed every year in Utah now. Add in another 2000 tags on 18 MORE LE units will only INCREASE the number of spikes killed in 2009.

I believe management tags, if implemented with some brains would work, as would a higher percentage of tags issued to primitive weapon hunters, and moving the season dates around. I think we need to make 4-6 LE units be managed like the Henries is for deer, PREMIUM. Manage these FEW select units world class, and where tags are limited more than the rest of the state. Keep ALL the hunts in the rut and keep tag allotments as they are now. Issue management tags in August to thin out the big 5's. That way there will be areas that produce 400+ bulls every year. Manage 10-15 LE units with 4-5 year harvest age objectives with more of the tags issued to primitive weapon holders and move the rifle hunt to be AFTER the muzzle loader hunt. Have the reamining LE units be managed for 3-4 year old bulls with a pile of tags, NO hunts in the rut, and shorter season dates.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
SO TELL ME Pro???

IN YOUR PERFECT ELK HERD???

THEM BIG BASTAGES ALL GO FROM A 4 POINT TO A SIX POINT EVERY FRICKEN TIME???

JUST FYI!!!

NOT ALL BIG 5 POINTS ARE OVER THE TOP!!!

WTF KINDA LOGIC IS THAT???

"Keep ALL the hunts in the rut"???

YOU'VE CHANGED YOUR MIND AGAIN???

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
>NeverStopHunting, you said you guess the
>total number of spikes killed
>will be around 400. Where
>did you come up with
>that number? I just looked
>at the DWR reports and
>it shows that 2000+ spikes
>are killed every year in
>Utah now. Add in another
>2000 tags on 18 MORE
>LE units will only INCREASE
>the number of spikes killed
>in 2009.
>


If you read my post a little closer you will see that i never said only 400 spikes will be killed. I said that with an increase of 1500 tags statewide given the average harvest success then about 240 extra spikes will be killed. Then add in the additional archery spikes that will be killed and i am assuming that not much more then 400 spikes will be killed statewide then where killed last year.


>I believe management tags, if implemented
>with some brains would work,
>as would a higher percentage
>of tags issued to primitive
>weapon hunters, and moving the
>season dates around. I think
>we need to make 4-6
>LE units be managed like
>the Henries is for deer,
>PREMIUM. Manage these FEW select
>units world class, and where
>tags are limited more than
>the rest of the state.
>Keep ALL the hunts in
>the rut and keep tag
>allotments as they are now.
>Issue management tags in August
>to thin out the big
>5's. That way there will
>be areas that produce 400+
>bulls every year. Manage 10-15
>LE units with 4-5 year
>harvest age objectives with more
>of the tags issued to
>primitive weapon holders and move
>the rifle hunt to be
>AFTER the muzzle loader hunt.
>Have the reamining LE units
>be managed for 3-4 year
>old bulls with a pile
>of tags, NO hunts in
>the rut, and shorter season
>dates.


I am in support of many of those ideas. I have been the whole time. We are on the same side pro. I think that if the management hunt was pre rut it would be a great thing! I also wouldn't mind seeing the season dates flipped around and i believe that is the main reason this state has the problems it has. When the rifle hunt is in prime rut there is a much higher chance the cream of the crop will be taken off of a unit. When that is the case the division has to limit the number of tags to try and protect some of the top end bulls. When they limit tags they don't kill as many bulls as need to be killed. The proof in in the numbers with many units having a bloated bull to cow ratio.

I think if tag allotment favored primitive weapons many more people would have the opportunity to hunt elk in utah.

I am not saying that the spike hunt is the answer. I just get sick of hearing people say that an increase in 1500 rifle tags spread over millions of acres is going to be the end of big bulls in utah. I would much rather see a management hunt put back in place.
 
Got you NeverStopHunting on the spike harvest. I do believe spike hunts, even with 'only' 1500 additional tags will have negative impacts on quality on prime LE units liek the Pahvant and San Juan, as MANY current and MANY 'new' spike hunters will switch to these units.

Bessy, I know you can read, so go back and see I am saying to keep the season dates on the PREMIUM LE units ONLY, which under 'my' plan would be only a few of the 28 LE units.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
> You can't issue more
>big bull tags AND start
>hunting the spikes too.
>Now you're widdling away at
>both ends.

I'm not in favor of issuing more big bull tags given current tag allotment and season dates. I would much rather see a management hunt put back into place. Bull need to die. We can kill some spikes or we can issue a bunch more bull tags. If we issue a bunch of bull tags what will happen?

Example -
>the Wasatch has seen an
>increase in tags every year
>for the past 7 years
>and we continue to hunt
>the spikes. I know
>I'm not alone in the
>thought that there has been
>a big decrease in the
>amount of big bulls running
>around that unit. There
>are a lot of bulls
>in the 280-340 class range
>but the number of bigger
>bulls has definately decreased.
>That's because we have been
>killing bulls at both ends
>of the age group.
>Tell me how you think
>you are going to keep
>the quality of bulls if
>you shoot the young and
>the old? Makes absolutely
>no sense to me.


I also spend a ton of time on the wasatch. You are absolutely right there has been a noted decrease in trophy bulls! But i don't think it has anything to do with the spike hunt. You said yourself that there are a lot of bulls in the 280-340 class range. If there are a lot of bulls the its obvious that the spike hunt isn't hurting the number of bulls. The problem, as you mentioned is that they have been increasing the amount of bull tags every year. If the wasatch didn't have a spike hunt then they would have to issue even more bull tags. If they gave more bull tags then even a 340 would become rare IMO.

Plus i feel that the late hunts put a big hurt on the wasatch unit. The first few years of the late rifle hunt many 360 plus bulls were taken. How did that affect quality?
 
IF YOU BOYS SUCK THIS NEW MOTL HUNT TO HEART IT ONLY SHOWS YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THE FUTURE OF LE ELK UNITS!!!

AND FOR YOU NEVERSTOPHUNTIN THAT MEANS:MILK ON THE LIP!!!

EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES BUDDY WANTS A TROPHY BULL Pro,SO YOUR IDEA IS TO HAVE VERY FEW PREMIUM UNITS???

WELL,THERE WILL BE A MAJOR NUMBER OF PISSCUTTIN FOOLS IN THE LE UNITS THIS YEAR,WAFJ!!!



"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
No kidding bessy, I guess that is why I went to 3 RAC's and the Wildlife Board trying to STOP the statewide spike plan. I did my part trying to stop it, how about you?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
YES Pro!!!

I'VE HOLLERED!!!

YOU GUY'S CLAIM I SCREAM!!!

I'VE BEEN FIGHTING STUPID $HIT FOR YEARS!!!

WHY IS IT THE NE VOICES HAVE NO EFFECT ON ANYTHING???

I'M BEGINNING TO THINK I'VE BEEN PISSIN IN THE WIND FOR MANY YEARS NOW!!!



"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
Bess- Do you have a suggestion on what you think should happen? You're quick to tell people what you think wont work but i'm not sure where you stand? Do you suggest things stay the same?




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bobcat,

Spend those elk points. I would bet a lesser tag would be better now than a premium one in 5 years? That was my thinking a few years ago. Get out before it gets messed up.

I hunted a real good unit in Wyoming a few times. Not as good as Utah, but still pretty good. They have issued tags ranging from 20 to 100. They adjust the amount of tags yearly to keep things in check. Why is Utah against adjusting tag numbers yearly? Seems once they give an increase it is always that number or more. Why is Utah always managing with a more, more, and more attitude?

I agree the glory days are over. I have no dog in this fight. It will be interesting to hear those guys wanting a big bull in 5 years. The deer and elk are screwed. Why not issue some ewe, nanny, lamb, and kid tags to make some sheep and goat opportunity?

The majority wants so called premium hunts. The draw odds should answer those questions on the Henry Mountains.

Oh well, what do I know? When I talk to NUNYA and he spends the entire fall, year after year, scouting and hunting and he sees a decline I tend to listen. Lets just see what next year brings? I bet it is another "down year?"
 
WELL NEVERSTOPHUNTIN???

I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU'VE BEEN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS???

I'VE SPLAINED IT 100'S OF TIMES!!!

MAYBE 1000'S OF TIMES!!!

HERES A SHORT SUMMARY OF PISS POOR MANAGEMENT IN THE LAST 20 YEARS!!!

BY THE LATE 80'S OUR ELK HERDS STARTED DOING REAL WELL!!!

HERE ON THE SOUTH SLOPE WE WERE LACKING IN GENETICS BUT THE NUMBER OF ELK WERE UN BELIEVABLE AND ONE OF THE CLEANEST STRAINS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD!!!

THE GOOD OLE UDWR STARTED TO SEE $$$ SIGNS IN THEIR EYES WHEN THE HERDS FLOURISHED!!!

SO YOU GUESSED IT,HERE CAME THE COW KILLER HUNTS!!!

I CAN'T EVEN TELL YOU HOW MANY COW/CALF ELK WERE DECIMATED IN THE YEARS TO FOLLOW!!!

THEY RAN THESE HUNTS INTO JANUARY & SOMETIMES FEBRUARY,KEEPING PRESSURE ON OUR ALREADY SUFFERING DEER HERD!!!

THIS $HIT WENT ON FOR YEARS!!!

THE SOUTH SLOPE COULDA BEEN AS GOOD AS ANY LE UNIT IN THE STATE WITH SOME PROPPER MANAGEMENT!!!

BUT MONEY & GREED WAS MORE IMPORTANT!!!

I EARNED MY FIRST FEW LE ELK POINTS TRYING FOR AN ANTHRO PERMIT!!!

I HELPED ON MANY OF THE GUZZLERS,FENCES & MANY OTHER LITTLE PROJECTS LONG BEFORE THE DEDICATED HUNTER PROGRAM CAME ALONG & SPENT TIME OUT THERE ON DEDICATED HUNTER PROJECTS AS WELL!!!

THE UNIT WAS DOING REAL WELL & HELD A FAIR NUMBER OF TROPHY BULLS!!!

BUT ALONG CAME GREED AGAIN & THEY WIPED THAT HERD OUT WITH COW-KILLER HUNTS & WENT AS LOW TO HAVE SOME DEPERDATION LATE BULL HUNTS PERTY MUCH FINISHING THE UNIT OFF DUE TO GREED & PISS POOR MANAGEMENT AGAIN!!!

SO I MOVED CAMP ON WHERE I'VE BEEN TRYING TO DRAW A PERMIT FOR QUITE A FEW YEARS NOW,PROBABLY NEVER GET THE TAG & IF & WHEN I DO IT WILL BE SHOT IN THE ASS DUE TO GREED & P POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

I DON'T HAVE THE PERFECT PLAN FOR LE UNITS & I DON'T THINK ANYBODY ELSE DOES EITHER???

I WAS TOTALLY AGAINST & FOUGHT AGAINST UTAHS POINT SYSTEM BEFORE IT CAME IN TO EFFECT!!!

I STATED IT WASN'T A FAIR SYSTEM & NOBODY SEEMED TO CARE AT THE TIME,NOW THERES A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHINNING!!!

LE UNITS WERE SET UP FOR DEDICATED HUNTERS WANTING A CHANCE AT A QUALITY/TROPHY ANIMAL!!!

IT TOOK A FEW YEARS BUT THE LE UNITS STARTED PRODUCING SOME TROPHY ANIMALS,THEN EVERY TARD(THAT NEVER PUT .01 CENT WORTH OF WORK IN TO THE UNITS!!!)IN THE STATE STARTS SCREAMING FOR MORE PERMITS & OPPORTUNITY!!!

I DON'T GIVE A RATS ASS HOW MANY PERMITS YOU ISSUE THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TROPHY BULLS IN THIS STATE FOR EVERY TARD TO HUNT & HARVEST ONE!!!

THEN AGAIN,THE $$$ SIGNS START ROLLING IN THE UDWR'S EYES & THEY START THE COW-KILLER HUNTS IN ALL THE LE ELK UNITS!!!

THEY HUNT THEM SO HARD THEY KNOCK THE HERDS OUT OF PROPORTION!!!

THEN A BUNCH OF WHINE ASS PISSCUTTIN FOOLS FALL FOR THE "THERES TOO MANY BULLS FOR THE NUMBER OF COWS" EXCUSE AND NOW THEY WANNA KILL MORE BULLS TO GET BULL TO COW RATIO'S BACK IN ORDER,WAFJ!!!

THEN THEY TRY A MANAGEMENT BULL HUNT(THAT I FOUGHT AGAINST FROM THE VERY FIRST TIME OF EVER HEARING ABOUT IT!!!)THAT I SAID WOULD NEVER EVER WORK & IT DIDN'T!!!

THIS $HIT KILLS ME,IT DIDN'T WORK ON ELK SO THIS YEAR THEY'RE GONNA TRY IT ON DEER,WTF???

IT'S A NEW PISS POOR BATTLE PLAN FROM ONE YEAR TO THE NEXT TO THE NEXT TO THE NEXT.................!!!

ONLY SO MANY BULLS CAN BE HARVESTED ON LE ELK UNITS TO KEEP THE QUALITY IN PERSPECTIVE!!!

I DON'T CARE WHO IT PISSES OFF!!!

I SUGGESTED TO Pro TO START SOME NEW LE ELK UNITS & MANAGE THEM ANYWAY HE WANTS TOO,BUT EVERYBODY IS GREEDY & WANTS TO TAKE WHAT TOOK YEARS TO GET WHERE IT IS TODAY!!!

I'M STRICTLY AGAINST PISSCUTTER HUNTS ON LE ELK UNITS(ONE THING THAT ME & Pro AGREE ON!!!)PLENTY OF OTHER PLACES TO KILL A DINK BULL ON A GENERAL UNIT!!!

I'M STRICTLY AGAINST 4-5 YEAR OLD OBJECTIVES ON LE ELK UNITS,BULLS AIN'T REACHED THEIR POTENTIAL AT 4 YEARS OLD & I DON'T GAF WHICH BIOLOGIST HAS BRAINWASHED YOU!!!

LET EM LIVE!!!

LET EM GROW!!!

LET EM BECOME TROPHY CLASS!!!

LET A FEW TARDS HUNT EM!!!

MAKE LE ELK UNITS ONCE IN A LIFE TIME DRAW!!!

KEEP A CLOSE EYE ON THE UNITS!!!

MANAGE LE UNITS FOR WHAT THEY WERE ORIGINALLY SET UP FOR!!!

LET THE PISSCUTTIN FOOLS/OPPORTUNISTS HUNT SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!

THERE AIN'T ENOUGH LE UNIT TROPHY BULLS FOR EVERY TARD IN THE STATE TO TAKE ONE,NEVER HAS BEEN,NEVER WILL BE!!!

LET THESE OTHER PISSCUTTIN GROUPS START THEIR OWN UNITS & LET THEM MANAGE THEM FOR PISSCUTTER HUNTS & SUCH!!!

DON'T #### WITH THINGS THAT AIN'T BROKE!!!

YOU CAN'T SATISFY EVERY TARD IN THIS STATE SO WHY EVEN TRY???

COWBOY UP & ACCEPT THE FACT NOT EVERY ONE OF US WILL BE ABLE TO HUNT LE ELK UNITS IN OUR LIFE!!!

DON'T DESTROY LE UNITS FROM GREED & PISS POOR MANAGEMENT THAT TOOK MORE THAN A DECADE TO GET THEM WHERE THEY ARE TODAY!!!

I COULD GO ON & ON & ON & ON & ON BUT I WON'T!!!

START YOUR OWN UNITS & MANAGE THEM FOR MOTL & PISSCUTTERS,IT WON'T BOTHER ME AT ALL,JUST DON'T DO THAT STUPID $HIT IN TROPHY UNITS THAT TOOK YEARS TO ACHIEVE!!!

bobcat OVER & OUT!!!







"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU Ty!!!

YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT!!!

NUNYA SEE'S IT & AIN'T AFFRAID TO POST IT!!!

YOU THINK HE'S LIEING TO US???

MAYBE ABOUT ALL HIS CHICKS BUT NOT ON THE ELK HERD!!!

YOU'RE RIGHT ktc!!!

I NEED TO GET THE HELL OUT!!!



"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

493c3bb236d04499.jpg


REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
Bess- Thats probably the best post i've seen from the ol' cat. I have always questioned why they kill pregnant cows in january but if the state is capped around 60,000 elk what else can they do? That is a big part of why the bull to cow ratio got the way it is. You can't kills cows and limit the harvest of bulls and expect things to be ok.

I personally think we can handle a few more elk but then they run into problems with the cattlemens association and the farmers crying about crop damage.

Its crazy that the division abolished the elk management hunt and in the same meeting created a deer management hunt. That makes no sense at all! I wish they would have gave the elk management a chance. I don't think that the management hunt should be pre rut and i don't think it should be a trophy hunt at all! You are never going to wipe out a five point gene but if they allowed some youth hunters a chance to take a five point bull its win win.
 
If things get out of whack what is wrong with taking more bulls then reeling it in to protect quality? They have issued many more tags than 5-10 years ago. Will they look at the harvest data and reel them in? No. We will see another increase. You can take that to the bank.

I talked daily with a Dutton archer who hit it hard. He may have seen one bull he guessed over 350. One.

I helped a rifle guy on Dutton. He rode his mules where most guys would not be caught dead. He killed a very large 5. Best he saw in a week.

NUNYA sent me an email. He stated his observation after months and months on Monroe and Pahvant. If I remember, it was all he could do to turn up a 360. Then Spidey came along and it was 501.;-) Remember this, Spidey is dead.

Aside from all the arm-chair biology, I think the quality is shot out for the most part. We will still see a few dandy bulls, but not like we are used to. I bet this was not an off year. I think next year will be worse. If you think the bulls were safe due to bad conditions and this shed year is going to be off the charts you are nuts. I can guarantee 2000 people with Solo Cams, Knight inlines, and 30-378's in September are going to kill the best bulls. Tell me then, what were the best bulls in 08? Compare that to 04, 05, 06, and 07. Aside from Spidey it was bleak.

Spend those points bobcat!!!! If I saw a 350 I would put his ass in the dirt.
 
WELL ktc!!!

I'M HOPING THEY TRANSPLANT A 600" BULL IN THE AREA IF & WHEN I DRAW!!!

GOOD GAWD!!!

IF I BLOW MY POINTS & ONLY END UP SEEING PISSCUTTERS I'M GONNA BE PISSED & GO ON A RAMPAGE LIKE YOU AIN'T NEVER SEEN!!!

WE'VE SEEN IT COMMING Ty!!!

IT'S HERE!!!




"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
I find it highly unlikely that quality was shot out statewide between september of 07 and september of 08. If that is infact the case then arizona and new mexico were shot out as well. 07 produced more 400 bulls then any other year. For several years our elk have gotten consistently better and we have one off year and everyone thinks the sky is falling. I guarantee you guys weren't crying about not enough bulls this time last year.

None of the units you mentioned have a spike hunt so if quality truly is gone the big bad spike hunt isn't to blame
 
Arizona and New Mexico? Are you kidding me NSH? They have a totally different deal there than we have here. They are very susceptable to bad years based on drought. Our climate and habitat is a different story. You are comparing apples and oranges.

I was on Dutton in 05. It was hotter than hell, like 80 degrees, and a full moon. Much like this year. It was not a problem to look over many good bulls that year. 06 was hot and dry. Again, no problems. 07 I could see a difference in the amount of bulls I was finding. Maybe it was just my spot because the rest of the state went well.

I would say what happened last year is up for debate. An off year or the quality is in a decline. You say off I say decline. Who's crying? I could care less I have 0 points and 3 years to wait and even then I will put in for deer. I am simply making an observation. Elk are a pain in the ass, do something about deer is my yell.

Speaking of 07, can you recall many top end bulls on the muzz or late? I cannot recall many. I was on the 07 muzz and it was tough. No top end bulls to chase in my haunts.

Don't start the crying and whining crap. This is America and a talk forum. Someone asked for thoughts and I gave you mine. You disagree fine. Lets see how the harvest reports look and look at the report next year. I hope I am wrong, but I don't think I am. I hope you are the voice of reason.

I do know of several people looking to blow out of the elk game with any tag they can draw because of what they have seen. What do you make of NUNYA's observations? He spends more time out there than most of us put together on the top units?

I hope the DWR can get ratios where they should be and keep quality high. I know that is not easy, but I think it can be done. If the harvest reports show a decline I hope they get ratios in check and pull back the tags. Can you imagine the fit if they only gave 1000 tags again? I know that won't happen.
 
I know that arizona and new mexico are far from utah. I'm just pointing out that most of the western states had a tough time this year compared to other years. If 05 was good and 06 was great and 07 was the best then what happened? This year was strange no doubt. I seen much bigger bulls in velvet and during scouting then i did during the rut. A 320 bull shouldn't be running 25 cows in utah in my opinion. Maybe i'm wrong and maybe we are in a world of hurt. I sure hope not.
 
Tutt,
Here's my concern. I hunted a late season bull down on the Pahvant. I saw more spikes in 2 days down there than I did in the last 4 years on the Wasatch. They weren't scared. They ran 50 yards and stopped to turn around and stare me down. It will be a slaughter. Your success rate that first year is going to be astronomical. The DWR is famous for that crap. Close an area down for 5 years and then open it up and give out 160 rifle tags (Vernon Unit). BLOOD BATH/SLAUGHTER/SITTIN DUCKS. It is going to hurt these premium units big time. The DWR is going to continue to hunt it like there has been no change. The Wasatch has gradually gone down hill. With the hunting of these new spike hunts on LE areas I bet you will see the quality and number drop like a rock. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm worried for nothing, but I doubt it. Please, somebody give me one thing that the DWR has done ON THEIR OWN (without any sportsmans groups) that has been successful in propagating big game in Utah.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Not to argue each and every point, but I felt based on many of the photos posted, Arizona had a very good year? I don't know anything for a fact, I just think the 300-400 tag increases every year for quite some time, plus adding the late hunts is taking it's toll? Maybe I am concerned it is all catching up now? I liked seeing Utah produce these great bulls. I hope it continues.

Ratios seems to be of high concern. That is a another problem in the equation, but I don't know how to balance that either. I thought the management hunts might have a chance at helping, and I like the early season idea, but that idea was one and out. I have no desire to shoot a spike, but a 330 5X5 would be a cool trophy. I also think putting the spike hunters out there in a LE situation for any hunter, bow, muzz, or rifle is a rip-off. I think to achieve the quality opportunity thing on an LE with proper tag numbers for each weapon, trophy tags, and management tags would have been a better idea? Hell, I have even felt date adjustments would be okay.

Time will tell. I know I would be worried with 12 points or so. That is just me and my own opinion. You may very well be right, and I hope you are NSH.
 
Jim, I have a lot of respect for you and i think you are a stand up guy but your comment about the spikes made me laugh a little bit. A spike is only a spike for one year. When opening day rolls around on the wasatch or the pahvant those spikes have never been hunted. Spikes on the wasatch are not any smarter just because they have had a spike hunt for many years.

If you seen that many spikes on pahvant then maybe a spike hunt is exactly what that unit needs? Just a thought

I totally agree about the DWR and like you said vernon is a prime example of that. Many other units have had the same fate. Close an area for several years and masacre them the first year it opens. Doesn't make any sense to me.


KTC-
I think you are right about the tag increase and the late hunts affecting the quality. I have noticed a decline but i don't believe it is as bad as 2008 has made it appear. I think there are still some great bulls out there and due to the moon, temp, amount of grass and water the elk were harder to find then normal. Maybe i'm wrong but with 07 being so great i would think that it would take a few more years to wipe out the top end bulls. Who knows?

I would much rather see a management hunt pre rut then the spike hunt. I wish they would give it another chance. I don't want anyone to think that i'm pro spike hunting i just think it is much better then giving a bunch more big bull tags. I think we can agree that the units that have seen a increase in bull tags have also seen a decrease in giant bulls. If the DWR has decided we have too many bulls then they are going to kill them. I would rather see some spikes shot then allowing a bunch more big bull tags.
 
Tutt,
You are welcome for the comic relief. :D I guess what I'm trying to say is this; it won't be like hunting spikes on units like the Wasatch or Manti. Those spikes are thinned out already and are pretty hard to find now. The Pahvant, for example, has a lot of spikes. More than I have seen in a long time. They are all grouped together. I don't disagree that the bull to cow ratio needs a little trimming but I think opening up a unit like this to unlimited spike hunting is a recipe for disaster. I can see it now, driving up a canyon on the afternoon of opening day and seeing several carcasses hanging in every camp. I just don't think that killing yearling bulls in mass is the smart thing to do. These bulls are vulnerable. If we want to reduce trophy size and give more opportunity then this will for sure get it done. If you want to keep the trophy quality for the future we can not keep giving out more mature bull tags and then shooting the yearling bulls as well. Maybe I have blinders on and I was never any good at math (in fact my wife won't let me touch the check book), but I just see all of this adding up to wappiti destruction. I DO NOT trust the DWR. They lie through their teeth to increase revenue. They are the epitomy of wildlife politicians. I know you have done a ton with wildlife in the past and have worked with these guys. I don't have to tell you what they are all about. I just don't see this going anywhere positive.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
SO TUTT???

SINCE YOU KNOW EVERYTHING???

IF YOU WERE RAISING DOMESTIC ANIMALS & YOUR LIVELYHOOD DEPENDED ON IT???

AND YOU WERE TRYING TO INCREASE YOUR HERD SIZE/QUALITY TO SURVIVE & KEEP THE BUSINESS GOING???

WOULD YOU SHOOT ALL THE CALVES???

WOULD YOU SHOOT ALL THE 3-4 YEAR OLDS???

WOULD YOU SHOOT ALL THE 4-5 YEAR OLDS???

WOULD YOU DECIMATE ALL THE FEMALES???

WOULD YOU RUN YOUR HERD IN CIRCLES FOR 5-6 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR???

WOULD YOU TRY ANOTHER STUPID BATTLE PLAN NEXT YEAR BECAUSE THIS YEARS STUPID BATTLE PLAN DIDN'T WORK???

WOULD YOU SHOOT EVERY YEARLING BULL JUST TO SEE IF IT MIGHT HELP YOUR HERD???

LIKE I SAID!!!

THIS STUPID $HIT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS!!!

A NEW STUPID BATTLE PLAN EVERY FRICKEN YEAR!!!

GOOD GAWD A MIGHTY!!!

IF Y'ALL CAN'T SEE THE LIGHT BY NOW YOU AIN'T SPENT MUCH TIME IN THE WOODS!!!

YOU DON'T HAVE TO LISTEN TO ME TUTT,OR ktc,OR AWLB,OR NUNYA,YOU CAN SUCK THE DWR'S BULLSSHIT TO HEART IF YOU WANT TO BUT YOU ARE VERY,VERY,VERY WRONG IF YOU THINK THESE PISSCUTTER (SPIKE!!!) HUNTS ARE THE ANSWER TO THE FIX!!!

WAKE THE HELL UP!!!

OH,AND HAVE A NICE DAY!!!





"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
Neverstop, This year was one of the best antler growth years we have had in the past 10. I was not "just a down year" The years of hunting GIANT elk are over. 300-330 bulls will be the norm. It took about 2 years for the DWR to screw it up with their massive tag increases and managment hunts. No the spike hunt is not to blame but its certainly not going to help. But what do I know? Just an uneducated construction worker that graduated by the skin on his teeth.


Just ask PRO what kind of bull he killed this year. How bout all those tag increases PRO? I hear the Dutton rocked!



---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
The monster elk years are gone least for a while anyway. A 360 class bull will be the new 400 just like it was about 10 years ago. Nunya is exactely right the antler growth this year was phenomenal, There just wasn't the amount of bulls that there usually is. I can't say this for every unit cause the wasatch was better this year than we have seen ever. Most struggled but we saw better bulls than ever. However the whole state is on the down hill slide. Three years from now when the effects of the spike hunts start to show in the mature bulls watch out cause there are gonna be some PISSED off ppl lookin for blood.
littlebeaver.jpg


Wildlife population control specialist
 
Bess- I'm not sure where you got it in your head that i am in favor of shooting cows and calfs??

I'll explain it one more time. If the dwr has decided that there are too many bulls then bulls are going to die. Basically they have proposed three options. There is a spike hunt, a management hunt and just plain issuing more big bull tags.

Of those options personally i would rather see the management hunt put back into place. Make it a youth hunt and make it pre rut.

The second option i prefer is the spike hunt. As we all know many spike hunters are road hunters. Many are lazy and that is proven by very low kill success rates. 1500 rifle tag increase spread over the entire state isn't that big of a deal considering that with those 1500 extra tags it is likely that only about 240 spikes will be killed given the average harvest success rate.

The third option is to increase big bull tags. Many units have had an increase in big bull tags for the last several years. It is the consensus among all of you that quality is down the last few years. Well obviously the increase in bull tags is to blame is it not?

I'm not saying its right i'm just telling it like it is. The DWR claims too many bulls so bulls are going to die!!! Maybe they are seeing $$$ signs or whatever but we all know that once they start killing they aren't going to stop. I just hope that these extra bulls they want killed aren't the cream of the crop. I would much rather see five points and spikes taken.

Just my two cents.
 
I would like to know what Bessy, ktc, and their hero NUNYA proposes we do with units like the Monroe where the bull:cow ratio is 1:1 and the herd population is half population objective? This issued ZERO cow tags this year, so that will help a bit. But, it is clear that unit has TOO MANY bulls and not enough cows on it. Bessy keeeps referring to cattle ranching, I have yet to see a cattle ranch that was successful with a 1:1 bull:cow ratio like Bessy seems to advocate.

Why is it so hard for folks to understand, if you don't kill bulls and the herd is at/over carrying capacity you MUST kill cows. The "quality is gone" crowd is what has driven us to have unhealthy herds with WAY TOO MANY bulls on them. Is it really healthy to have 400" bulls roaming among every group of 20 cows like some on here want? SInce when is a 350 bull "poor quality"?

I hate the statewide spike plan, but I prefer that over having more units end up like the Monroe where the population is decreasing because of excess bulls and too few cows. I strongly believe there are better plans than the two extremes, management tags, managing SOME units for 400 clas bulls, some for 350 class bulls, others for 300 class bulls, and any-bull areas. It CAN be done, question is, will SPORTSMEN step up and demand/allow it be done?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
FOR CHRISTS SAKE Pro!!!

YOU STILL DON'T GET WHAT I'VE SAID FOR YEARS DO YOU???

I'VE SCREAMED FOR YEARS ABOUT THESE COW-KILLER HUNTS!!!

I'VE SCREAMED THEY WERE KILLING WAY TOO MANY!!!

BUT EVERYBODY JUST SIT BACK WITH THEIR TEETH IN THEIR MOUTH & BRAIN IN NEUTRAL AND DIDN'T DO A ####ING THING!!!

I AIN'T NO BIOLOGIST BUT BY GAWD DO YOU HAVE TO BE ONE TOO SEE THE LIGHT???

BESSY,ktc & OUR HERO NUNYA WOULD OF NEVER LET THE UNIT BECOME A 1 ON 1 RATIO UNIT,DO YOU FRICKEN UNDERSTAND???

JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

AGAIN,WHEN ITS TOO LATE THE DWR TRIES DOING SOMETHING,YOU EVER NOTICE ITS ALWAYS TOO LATE THOUGH???

YOU'RE RIGHT ON THE CATTLE OR ANY OTHER HERD OF ANYTHING YOU WANNA TALK ABOUT,RANCHERS SURE THE HELL LOOK INTO THE FUTURE FURTHER THAN TOMMOROW MORNING OR THEY'D BE BROKE FLAT ON THEIR ASSES!!!

YOU'RE STARTING TO PISS ME OFF Pro!!!



"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
PRO I try to be nice to ya but I just can't. This IS the HERO you f-n ZERO, lets rock-n-roll.
Since you bought up the MONROE which you say has a 1-1 bull cow ratio and is at HALF of the total elk objective why would they have a spike hunt? FOR THAT MATTER WHY WOULD THEY HAVE A COW HUNT? NOW LET ME GRAB YOU BY THE EAR ON THAT BLOCK MEAT HEAD OF YOURS PRO AND YOU LISTEN AND YOU LISTEN GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!
YEAR 2000 157 COWS KILLED ON MONROE
YEAR 2001 120 COWS KILLED ON MONROE
YEAR 2002 38 COWS KILLED ON MONROE
YEAR 2003 37 COWS KILLED ON MONROE
YEAR 2004 36 COWS KILLED ON MONROE
YEAR 2005 29 COWS KILLED ON MONROE
YEAR 2006 12 COWS KILLED ON MONROE
429 COWS KILLED IN THE PAST 7 YEARS ON A UNIT THAT IS UNDER ITS ELK OBJECTIVE BY HALF?????? DO I NEED TO SAY W-T-F?
IN 2007 IT APPEARS SOME SMART SOB REALIZED THAT THE MONROE ELK POPULATION WAS AT ONE HALF (ACCORDING TO PRO) OF THE TOTAL OBJECTIVE AND DECIDED THAT MAYBE IT WOULD HELP IF THEY DIDNT HAVE A COW HUNT!!!!!(nothin gets by these guys) KEEP IN MIND THIS IS ACTUAL ELK KILLED NOT TAG TOTALS. THANK GOD FOR PEOPLE LIKE PRO WHO HAVE A HARD TIME GETTING A COW KILLED. IF THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN CLOSE TO 100% KILL THE MONROE ELK HERD WOULD BE A LITTLE SCARCE.
PRO, THIS PROVES WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG! YOU AND THE UDWR ARE MORONS.

Now with the new spike hunt, and the 400 COW tags issued on the Pahvant this year, The Pahvant will suck worse than PRO on a DWR biologist for years to come.

Nice bull you took on the Dutton this year PRO. Thank god for those tag increases, huh.
SINCELRY, YOUR HERO WAYNE
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
"SInce when is a 350 bull "poor quality"?"

Ever since you drew your Dutton tag and told everyone you were passing the small 380 types for a 400. You raised my expectations at that time.

NUNYA probably knows more about what roams the top units than anyone I know. Maybe it is you since you can call in entire herds? I have heard it is unreal.

Think back for a few years. I have always said a 350 is a great goal to have. You are the 400 or nothing guy, not me.

To answer your question, I would raise and lower tags to get where I wanted to be, not listen to people whining for more, more, more. No spike tags.

Nice to see you talking with me again pro.

bobcat, you are asking for an invitation to the expo from pro if you say he is pissing you off. Just a friendly warning.;-)
 
HEY NUNYA!!!

IF YOU EDIT POST # 64 I'M GONNA CALL YOU A PUZZY RIGHT HERE ON THE WWW!!!

GREAT POST,THANKS FOR SHARING,KEEP SHARING!!!

AND FOR YOU NSH!!!

COWBOY UP,IT'S ABOUT TO GET GOOD!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

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REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
Thanks for the hard numbers HERO. Glad to see someone with some numbers I can believe.

Anus Aude or whatever his name is has his head up his ass.
 
ktc!!!

I DON'T KNOW IF I'M GETTING AN INVOTATION OR NOT???

BUT I'LL BE THERE!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

493c3bb236d04499.jpg


REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
I SECOND POST NUMBER 68!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

493c3bb236d04499.jpg


REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
I started a WAR!!! i get points on both sides. but NUNYA is my hero for sure. had a good buddy that a few here probably know he was the CO on the wasatch a couple of ten years back. Always said that the division was like a pendulum they let things slide to far one way and then have to let it rebound the other. Looks like classic example they let the $$$$$ signs get to them and now that it is on the extreme of one end, its a race to try and fix the damage.
littlebeaver.jpg


Wildlife population control specialist
 
HERO, no need to 'try' and be nice, it doesn't fit you. When have you EVER seen/heard me supporting issuing spike tags on units like the Monroe/Pahvant? WTH were you trying to stop it from being implemented? Typical NUNYA, all MOUTH. If I was worried about 'impressing' little drunk elves I would have hunted with a rifle and nailed one of the 380+ bulls I located on my hunt.

ktc, you're right I held out for a bull bigger than 400, but that was ME, and I do NOT believe the whole damn state should be managed for ME.

I'm STILL waiting for one of you bright guys to offer solutions, it's easy to Monday morning quarterback, how about some solutions that will actually accomplish healthy herds. Bessy, if you don't kill bulls like you and HERO say, and you don't kill cows, how do you keep population numbers in check? HERO may want to do some research on where/why the Monroe elk numbers are where they are before spouting off.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
I am glad YOU felt like you had a chance. To me, that is what it is about. I had a chance, you had a chance, and so should bobcat and anyone else investing in the point game. The whole state and every herd does not need a 400. To have a few, for those who want to try, is perfect.
 
NUNYA made the statement, "thank God there wasn't a 100% success". Does the Fish Lake Unit bring back any memories for anybody? There was the 100% success rate that NUNYA is talking about and look what happened there. If I were you Filmore, Rihfield, Gunnison boys I would be pissed as hell that they are fixin to destroy an elk unit in my backyard. For hell sakes folks, this is government agency. Do you really trust them with the decision making ability for your wildlife. It's all about money. Bottom line, these units will go down hill. I agree with ktc, I think for the most part they already have.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Pro what's the divisions postition right now?????? It's kill off all of the spikes and mature bulls, leaving hmmmmmmm what is it????? a whole shitpot full of up and comers to do the breeding and F up the ratio it aint hard to do the math. Factor in a bunch of under educated IDIOTS doing the counting and callin the shots on the units and what do ya have???????????? F'in circus thats what. I had the pleasure of meeting and helping, one of the guys counting elk on the wasatch with his premium tag, he ate tag soup on his own accord but while out with him he said there are 6000 f'in elk on the UNIT. its been said that you can call em in like a PRO and that elk come to like cows to a slaughter. So step on to the wasatch and find 6000 elk. I dare you. Jim will second me on this you will be lucky to find 4500 and i know where they are. So here is what it comes down to when ya target one age group you dont do a ratsass worth of good. It takes even management throught the ENTIRE herd to make it work. that is cows included. NOT 2000 COWS like the division loves to throw out there, and definitely not late season SLAUGHTERS. In four years the pahvant, san juan, and dutton will have a ratio thats just sickning cause the spikes will be destroyed and once the bulls that are in place are killed whats to fill their place???? The division has F'ed it up good this time and its gonna take an act of god to fix it or maybe just the Hero PRO and his side kick Neverstophuntin.
littlebeaver.jpg


Wildlife population control specialist
 
Berry, one more time, I am NOT a supporter of spike tags. I dare say noone was more vocal than I was at the RAC's and Wildlife Board on this issue. I also am a huge supporter of mandatory reporting and better counting of animals. I look at the numbers posted by the DWr on several units and I shake my head. Hell, they don't even believe their own numbers. For example, they posted that the Boulder has only 400 elk on it, yet they gave out 200+ cow tags, 100+ mature bull tags, and an uncapped number of spike tags. I doubt they would do that if they believed their own numbers. Ask Anis if he likes me, i am probably at the bottom of his Christmas list because I told him he was off and his numbers didn't add up repeatedly in public meetings. For me to be accused of being 'in' with the DWR is inane. I think statewide spike hunts are one of the DUMBEST ideas the DWr has implemented EVER!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Nobody likes you PRO



---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
GOOD GAWD A MIGHTY Pro!!!

YOU'RE TELLING ME WE PAY ALL THESE BIOLOGISTS FOR BASICALLY NOTHING???

YOU MEAN TO TELL ME UNITS HAVE TO BE DESTROYED BEFORE ANYBODY BUT ME,ktc,AWLB & "MY HERO" CAN SEE THE DAMAGE???

JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

CHANGES ON LE UNITS CAN GO EITHER WAY & THEY SHOULD!!!

BUT IF YOU LOOK BACK IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS IT'S ALWAYS WAYS OF SELLING MORE PERMITS TO CREATE MORE MONEY!!!

END OF FRICKEN STORY Pro!!!

WHAT A BUNCH OF GREEDY PISSCUTTIN FOOLS!!!



"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

493c3bb236d04499.jpg


REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
> Nobody likes you PRO

What are you 8 years old? What a troll(ie short drunk).

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
I SUGGEST AN OCTAGON!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

493c3bb236d04499.jpg


REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
I can see something about to happen on the Wasatch and Manti units (the two spike fest hunting areas).
With the opening of statewide spike hunting, more bulls will survive on those units, end result, even more mature tags issued in the future on them......bye bye 380" Wasatch days

The state already said last year they wanted to lower the average age class we are killing down to 5-6, 6 being and "old bull". Guess this is how they are going to do it (skimming from both ends).
They are creating "more opportunity" to kill descent bulls" instead of limiting a handful of lucky people that have waited 16 years to killing a "big bull".
The majority of the public is screaming about not being able to draw elk tags.....this is their answer because there is a hell of a lot more of them, than there is "trophy hunters".

And for the record.....i am totally against the statewide spike hunting. I think they should leave the top trophy producing units alone as far as spikes go and make a better management plan to keep the older bulls for trophy hunting.

Utah will now be the best state to kill a camp full of 330" bulls, 360" will be a monster!!









48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Bessy, I've already said I'll take you up on the octagon offer.

I think you dead on right slammy! Sad as it may be.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
I'LL BE THERE IN FEBRUARY Pro!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

493c3bb236d04499.jpg


REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
BUT I'M WARNING YOU!!!

I AIN'T AS GOOD AS I ONCE WAS!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

493c3bb236d04499.jpg


REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
You know, I look back at who has posted on this thread and there are some really good people here with only the best interest for our elk herds in mind. The ones that I know on this thread are all accomplished hunters and know a thing or two about a thing or two. Although there are some difference in oppinions here, I think we all agree on one thing and that is this whole spike thing is the dumbest idea they have had in a long time. So why is it that a group of sportsman like us can have this discussion and come to the conclusion that it's a pretty shi++y idea, yet the DWR insists on implementing this so called "thought out and agreed upon" plan when so many (and I'm pretty sure that it's not just us vocal SOB's here on MM) hunters think it's a bad idea?
Agreed upon by who? Thought out by who? I tell ya right now, I would love to see The Gov. come throught the expo in February. The first thing I would do is tell him to fire those dumbarse DWR dudes and start from scratch.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
I couldn't agree more Jim....fire them all and start over with "sportsmen".

I have never had anything bad to say about Anise, i have known him as a biologist up on Deseret and he really does seem like a sharp guy.
But it kinda looks like he's wanting to make this entire state just like Deseret....330" average, 1 to 1 ratio!

Like i said in my earlier post....there are a LOT more peole screaming for "opportunity" VS "quality", and the squeaky wheel is getting the grease!








48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
AWLB!!!

I AGREE!!!

EVEN ME & BARTRA AGREES ON THE SPIKE HUNT BEING A STUPID PLAN!!!

WTF GOOD IS A NE RAC???

IT'S A JOKE!!!

I'VE EVEN ASKED PEAYDAY TO THROW AN INJUNCTION IN ON THESE LE PISSCUTTER HUNTS!!!

I HOPE HE'S GOT ENOUGH PULL TO GIT-R-DONE!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

493c3bb236d04499.jpg


REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
Why don't we go back to thinking in terms of wildlife management?

Piss on the LE hunts. Piss on the management hunts.

Let's just do hunter's choice for all species based on healthy and manageable numbers for deer, elk, whatever.

Why are big game hunts being managed for profit?

Trophy hunt mentality is becoming the bane of sportsman everywhere.

RUS
 
If they want more opportunity and at the same time reduce the bull to cow ratio they should eliminate the spike hunts period (including the Wasatch and Manti) and issue a few more LE tags. I think it was slam that mentioned a youth spike hunt. I think that's a great idea. Generally kids don't care if the bull is 18" or 400". That way they can control the numbers. Just an idea. This whole "unlimited" things scares me to death. How do you issue unlimited tags for a limited resource?

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Peay is your only hope bobcat. Call him what you want guys, but the guy can get sh!t done. It is times like this he earns his money.

AWLB, you are right. Good post. Seems most of us can disagree without idle threats. I am bad as the next guy rambling on MM, but when the guys like you, NUNYA, and others talk about what they see when they spend the entire fall and even summer scouting and hunting I listen.

I saw some exceptional bulls in 07. 08 they were GONE! Why? I have no idea. One other guy I spoke to on Dutton, and this guy knows Dutton very well, killed a very nice 380+, but that was the very best he could turn up. Knowing it like he does, hunting like he does, and seeing what he had seen in the past I think he thought it would be better? He is happy and 380 is BIG!

I enjoyed 3 years of outstanding elk hunting. I hope guys like bobcat get a turn also. Seems quality and quantity and bow versus rifle is a burr in just about everybody's ass these days. Hunting is hunting to me and I don't care where you go or what weapon you use.
 
I like you Pro. In fact, I like anyone who cares enough to go to the meetings and try to make things better, even if I disagree with them about some things.

As an outsider, who has not yet had the chance to hunt elk in Utah, and might not ever get to, here are some observations:

1. According to the statistics, the average age of bulls being killed on most LE units continues to increase.

2. The consensus seems to be that this was an outstanding year for antler growth in Utah.

3. Hunters that know what they are doing believe the number of top end bulls has significantly decreased in many LE units.

I believe all these statements are true, and illustrate one of the major problems with how Utah manages elk, basically by age structure. Average harvest age goes up, tags numbers go up. Unfortunately, age structure is only one of several factors that produces top end bulls. There is no doubt in my mind that the best genetics on many units are being systematically eliminated. I realize that many of you don't want to hear it, but the primary cause, in my view, is the LE any weapon hunt occurring in the middle of the rut. This is also my major objection to the spike hunt. As hunters, we will shoot the biggest spike we see in a herd, not the runt. That is a disaster, IF your goal is to produce top end bulls.

Given Utah's system, and the extremely small chance you would ever move the LE any weapon hunt to more appropriate dates, I only see one option for solving the problem of too many bulls in the herd, while protecting the top end bulls. That would be a management hunt for bulls with a maximum of four points on one side, with the hunt occurring at the same time as the LE Rifle hunt. At least in Oregon, most "raghorns are 5 points, and 3 and 4 points are typically "runts" that will never be a trophy bull. Holding the hunt in September will eliminate most of the issues with broken tines making large, mature bulls vulnerable to this hunt. I know, I know, it will ruin the hunt for the trophy boys, and I agree with that it will make it much tougher. I just think you are going to have to decide what you want. In my view, continuing the current season/harvest structure will eventually result in a 380+ bull being extremely rare on public land.

Now, if you guys would just give me my lousy Oquirrh Stansbury tag, I could come back there and see all these monster bulls for myself, before it is too late. I promise not to shoot any bull that would score 380 plus. (Maybe not, actually, doubt I could tell the difference between a 350 and a 380 bull.)

Scoutdog
 
THIS $HIT STILL AMAZES ME!!!

EARLIER THIS YEAR (AND FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW!!!) I SUGGESTED TO Pro:::

START YOUR OWN (5-6-7!!!) UNITS!!!

MANAGE THEM AS YOU DAMN WELL PLEASE!!!

SHOOT PISSCUTTERS,IT'S OK MY ME!!!

KILL EVERYTHING THAT MOVES,IT'S OK BY ME!!!

OVER HUNT THE BULLS/UNITS!!!

SHOOT THE $HIT OUT OF THE COWS!!!

KEEP 5-6 MONTHS WORTH OF HUNTING PRESSURE ON THESE UNITS AT ALL TIMES!!!

TRY A BUNCH OF STUPID STUFF!!!

ISSUE/SELL TOO MANY PERMITS!!!

WHEN PISSCUTTIN OPPORTUNISTS START SCREAMING,SELL THEM ANY KINDA PERMIT THEY WANT & UN-LIMITED!!!

WHEN TOO MANY BULLS HAVE BEEN SHOT JUST START A WHOLE BUNCH OF COW-KILLER HUNTS!!!

THEN WHEN THE UNITS ARE SHOT OUT & SITTING AT A 1 TO 1 RATIO JUST START KILLING THE PISSCUTTERS/CALVES UNLIMITED!!!

THEN IN 2-3 YEARS WAKE THE HELL UP AND WONDER WTF HAPPENED???

I SUGGESTED MANY TIMES FOR Pro TO START HIS OWN LE UNITS BUT HE WANTED TO TAP IN TO EXISTING LE UNITS,WTH???

I'M NOT AGAINST SOMEBODY STARTING & MANAGING DIFFERENT UNITS FOR A DIFFERENT OBJECTIVE!!!

GIT-R-DONE!!!

BUT BY GAWD THEY SHOULD BE SET UP JUST LIKE THE EXISTING LE UNITS WERE RIGHT FROM THE START,NOT BY TRYING TO STEAL THE WORK THATS ALREADY BEEN DONE!!!

I'VE TOLD YOU SEVERAL TIMES I'D BE THE FIRST TO VOTE FOR YOU Pro IF YOU'D START YOUR OWN UNITS WITHOUT SCREWING WITH EXISTING UNITS NO MATTER WHAT YOUR BATTLE PLAN WAS,MAYBE YOU "Pro" CAN SATISFY ALL THE TARDS WITH 'YOUR' MANAGEMENT???

AND ALWAYS REMEMBER Pro:::

NEVER LISTEN TO GUYS THAT SPEND COUNTLESS TIME ON THE SAME UNITS YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR,JUST CALL THE UDWR FOR THE NUMBERS THAT ARE SO FAR OFF AT TIMES IT'S A FRICKEN JOKE!!!









"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

493c3bb236d04499.jpg


REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
I'll tell you guys right now the spike hunt is not the end of the world. I can only compare the Beaver unit with the Southwest Desert because they are the units I spend a lot of time on. Today the Beaver unit is in far better shape than the Southwest Desert. 5 years ago I wouldn't trade 3 Beaver tags for 1 Southest Desert tag. Last year I hunted the Beaver. Spike hunting is allowed on the Beaver with very limited cow hunting around agriculture area. Southwest Desert has been issuing roughly 300 cow tags and 50 bull tags the last 10 years. The Beaver unit issues a few more big bull tags also.
 

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