Check this video out.

I videoed this bull the year before and had the same looking rack as this year and it did seem that there was some thing wrong with him that year as well. This bull is the only one that I have seen in the area that was in that bad of shape. The trail cam picture was of the bull 3 days after the video and I doubt that he could have lived much longer after that.
 
The state is "UTAH" In one of the Limited Entry Units, but I wont tell you which one.
 
The video was titled CWD. How can you be sure that is the problem? Just curious. I wouldn't know it if I saw it.

Thanks,
 
That su*ks!! There should be a hot line to get a DWR agent in the area an stop the suffering!! Life in the wild can really be tough!!!
 
>The video was titled CWD.
>How can you be sure
>that is the problem?
>Just curious. I wouldn't
>know it if I saw
>it.
>
>Thanks,


I assume it it titled CWD becaues the way the elk was stumbling around, confused looking, not able to stay on track... Those are symtomes of CWD, as well as any number of other things.
That bull could have just as easily been wounded by a hunter, or another bull and been hanging low healing up and starving to death. Could have parasites. Could have a congenital condition.

And I suppose it could have CWD as well.

The only thing I saw for sure was that bull was not "healthy".
 
>I'm surprised the wolves hadn't got
>him.... Terry

from what I've read, wolves will not kill and eat an obviously sick animal.
 
"From what I've read, wolves will not kill and eat an obviously sick animal."

This is true. However, it seems wolves are weaning themselves off of meat they have to kill all together. They have been spotted using the Drive-Thru at Taco John's in Idaho Falls
 
"from what I've read, wolves will not kill and eat an obviously sick animal."

The Discovery Channel, National Geographic and the wolf reintroduction groups have all taught me that wolves only target the weak and sick animals in a herd and make it stronger by removing them...Have I been misled?..... Terry
 
Saw an elk last year in Arizona area 16A that looked just like that elk. He was in wild cow campground. Looked sick got about 20 yards from him. His antlers went srieght out to the side like a cows. He was with 4 cows that all looked ok, but he sure wasn't feeling good. Any wildlife biologists out there that have some input is to what is wrong with them?
 
>The state is "UTAH" In one
>of the Limited Entry Units,
>but I wont tell you
>which one.


If there is a problem in one of Utah's Le units why would you withhold info. You going to use your points and bust that beauty. make some good burger out of him.

that elk needs to be put down if he isn't already dead!


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
If there is a problem in one of Utah's Le units why would you with hold info. You going to use your points and bust that beauty. make some good burger out of him.

that elk needs to be put down if he isn't already dead!


The day after I videod this bull I called the DWR and told them that I had seen a bull elk that was in really baf shape and said that I thought it had CWD, they pretty much told me that I was a liar for even suggesting that an elk had CWD in the "great" state of utah, but said for me to go and find it again and then call them back and they would maybe come out and take care of the bull. My uncle was there with me the day that we saw it and said that he wanted to kill it himself, but we were on a dirt road that is travelled alot and didnt want to get caught shooting it.

I saw and videod this same bull the year before and even then it looked sick, but he wasn't in bad shape. I have no doubt that the bull died shortly after we saw him last, no animal in that bad of shape could possibly survive much longer.
 
sorry your post rubbed me the wrong way. I for the life of me cant see why you would with hold info on the unit that bull is on.

The division needs to see the tape you have and they need to see where this bull is. I just hope it is not some sort of disease that will wipe out the herd.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
>sorry your post rubbed me the
>wrong way. I for the
>life of me cant see
>why you would with hold
>info on the unit that
>bull is on.

You seem to be "rubbed" the wrong way a lot. :)
 
I would say if you saw this bull 2 years straight it probably wasn't CWD. It seems like once CWD hits an animal it doesn't take long to kill it. Maybe someone with more information regarding this could chime in.

There are many diseases out there that can cause an animal to look like skin and bones. One that comes to mind is heartworm. I saw a deer a few years ago that was in the condition of that elk. I called the game and fish and they came out and shot it. They said it had heartworm. Something about flies laying eggs in the nose of the animal.

Thanks for the video. And it doesn't hurt to keep your eyes open for such things as CWD etc.

I've also found that with any authority figure or person in position how you come off to them is going to dictate their response back. If you approached the UDOW in any way like you approached this thread then I can see why you got the response you did.

Once again thats for sharing the video.
 
geez thats too bad hate seein that kinda stuff!
i think id have taken care of that situation myself!
at least contacted dwr to do it!
 
My uncle was
>there with me the day
>that we saw it and
>said that he wanted to
>kill it himself, but we
>were on a dirt road
>that is travelled alot and
>didnt want to get caught
>shooting it.

This statement really pisses me off!!! Are you saying that if you were in the backcountry where no one could see you, you would "Take care" of this bull??? You don't just go around POACHING bulls because you think they have CWD. That is ridiculous that you would even have thoughts of killing a bull without a tag. You people disgust me!!!
 
>My uncle was
>>there with me the day
>>that we saw it and
>>said that he wanted to
>>kill it himself, but we
>>were on a dirt road
>>that is travelled alot and
>>didnt want to get caught
>>shooting it.
>
>This statement really pisses me off!!!
>Are you saying that if
>you were in the backcountry
>where no one could see
>you, you would "Take care"
>of this bull??? You don't
>just go around POACHING bulls
>because you think they have
>CWD. That is ridiculous that
>you would even have thoughts
>of killing a bull without
>a tag. You people disgust
>me!!!


KaBoom......he is obviously dying and suffering, he is not going to recover....Would you finish off a bull that you hit with your truck and had a broken back? I know disease is different... although I would not shoot him, I can understand why someone would.

-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-10 AT 04:13PM (MST)[p]Why I may or may not agree with the principle of shooting a sick animal the fact of the matter is be prepared for the consequences.

I'm not sure how you can base an opinion on whether the animal is going to get better or not from a little bit of video?

Animals are tough and its amazing what they can live through.

Leave the shooting of sick animals to the proper authorities. Find cell phone coverage and make a call. Its that easy.
 
Boom and it would be done.
If I get in that shape I hope some-one will put me down in a good way.



"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
Wow! Are you guys serious??? You would actually take matters into your own hands and "POACH" an animal because you thought it was sick??? You people are the big problem with our big game herds, who knows how many "Problem" animals you have "Taken care of" in your life. The last thing we need is people thinking they can go shoot whatever they want because it's limping or looks retarded. I really hope someone at the DWR is watching this thread and takes you names down, you people are ridiculous.
 
woah buddy, you are saying that people shooting retarded elk are the problem with our game herds? oookkaaayyy. what about a doe that someone hit with a car and broke it's back? would finishing her off be poaching to you? I wish the world was black and white, but real life sometimes requires independent thought.........a baby stuck in a hot car, would you vandalize the car and break the window to save it? no, vandalism is wrong.....extreme but you get the point...

most of us said we would NOT shoot the bull, but understand why someone would want to end it's suffering. And yes that is a dead elk walking...$100 to anyone who can prove otherwise.

besides, your GQ pics in the vortex photo thread are far more offensive than anything here.......haha just kidding brosef.


-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
 
>besides, your GQ pics in the
>vortex photo thread are far
>more offensive than anything here.......haha
>just kidding brosef.

Cheesy, I know. But I'll do what I can for a free pair of binos.
:)
But back to the subject:
If you hit an animal with your car, you are responsible for that injury and it would probably be wise to end the suffering. But that's different because you are 100% positive that the deer has a broken back and can't move. The elk in the video is alive and walking around. He may be injured, and he may just be retarded, but we still can't go around making judgements for ourselves.
If your neighbor's son has cancer are you going to go "Take Care of him" too??? It just doesn't work that way. We don't have the authority to decide which animals live and which die. The DWR is responisible for those choices and we have to support that.
It just bothers me when people say that they "Would have killed it, but someone would have seen us cause we were on a road". Makes you wonder what this guy does when he is away from a road.
 
Yes sometimes doing the right thing is hard to do,I will take my chances on the Game Warden seeing things the way, I do in this situation. (I asked a couple of LE who are hunters what they would do and they both said the same thing Bang)
Just as I would for that cop not ticketing me for breaking that window to open the car .

Sometimes things aren't just black and white, it called using your judgment sometimes you get it right and sometimes you get it wrong, But you still have to do what YOU think is right.
I believe the right thing to do would put this elk down and end it suffering.
Letting this elk mingle with a herd of elk would be a bad choice IMO.



"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I agree with you on that point - If you are afraid of someone finding out you did something, you may want to rethink it. If you are confident that your actions are justified, be ready to accept any consequences.

And HJB, please stop calling these elk retarded, they are special.

-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-10 AT 07:40PM (MST)[p]WOW!!!!! Thats all Im going to say HJB is WOW!!!!, so let me get this straight just because of the way I worded that sentence it make me or my uncle a poacher? The DWR better come and arrest me for poaching for even thinking about ending the suffering of an animal that is in pain.

I love to go out hiking and videoing wildlife and I have seen my fair share of elk and deer that are as healthy as can be, but this is the first animal that I have seen in the wild that looks as bad as this one did. Over the years that I have filmed the deer and elk and have seen some of the same ones year after year and I give them names so that I can tell them apart. so to me when I see one of them that I know they are in a fair amount of pain I sort of feel really bad for them(yes cheesy I know) but all the same.

So HJB, the next time you have a dog or a cat that you know is in alot of pain and know that it would be better for you to just "end" its suffering, DON'T. Its not up to you to play GOD! Just let your dying family pet just continue to suffer beyond anything you can imagine and let it die on its own terms.

As for the bull that we saw and videoed, we left him there on the hill side called the DWR and told them about it and thats as far as it went.
 
This bull wasn't your family pet and you don't have the right to make that decision. You said it yourself "You don't have the right play god"

Just a note: If my "Family pet" was sick, I would take it to vet to confirm that it was a life threatning sickness. He would decide wether it would be best to put the pet down or not. Same goes for that bull. The DWR makes the decision to put the bull down, not you.
 
HJB, like I stated at the beginning and through out this post. After videoing the bull we left it "still alive" we did not shot it ourselves, we did not pull a gun on it and think about pulling the trigger, we just had a thought of what that elk was going through and in our minds we wanted to end its suffering(the key words are OUR MINDS) But we didn't shoot it, we called the DWR and they did nothing about it! Does that seem right to you?

But anyway, it was not "MY" call.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-10 AT 03:08AM (MST)[p]The fact of the matter is that if you would've shot it, then called the DWR and even showed them the video, you would get busted for poaching. That elk looked in bad shape for sure, but it's not anybody's job here to dictate the fate of game in that position. That's the DWR's job, and if they choose to do nothing, even though it doesn't seem fair, that's their position to make those calls. It's completely different to compare this to an animal that you hit with your car because you KNOW exactly what's wrong with that animal, but honestly that elk could have many different issues, and maybe some would not be life threatening. Not our position to decide, even if that is what's "best" for the animal. You even said in your second post that you saw him the year before and he seemed to have something wrong with him then too. If he's making it through winters, then it seems like he doesn't necessarily need to be put down.
 
I know you didn't shoot it. And yes, there is something wrong with the elk and it is probably CWD. But.... That's for the DWR to decide. They will decide the fate of the animal. If they decide that you are "Full of it", oh well at least you tried.

I once turned in a co-worker for poaching 8 Turkeys out of season. He physically showed me the birds and I told the DWR everything that had happened. All they had to do was go to his house and bust him. Instead they told me that there were no turkeys in the area described and that they were probably grouse. So the guy got away with it, and there was nothing I could do about it. Sure, I wanted to take matters into my own hands and beat the crap out of the guy and drag him and his turkeys down the the DWR office, But I can't do that.

I totally agree that there are some problems with the DWR and the way they handle some of these tips we give them. I also agree that an elk with CWD is a big threat to the unit he is on and the rest of the herd. I know that you did not take action and that your "Uncle" was just "Brainstorming", but all actions first take place in our minds. It just bothered me that you implied that you probably would have shot it if you were not on an established road.

As long as we agree that killing an elk out of season (CWD or not) IS actually poaching, then there's no further reason to discuss this issue. I just wanted to make sure that you wouldn't make a mistake you would regret for many years to come.
HJB
 
BWM

You should change the subject title to: Click here to get "Rubbed".

Now who's next? :)
 
I just have one question. How does one magically become a vet, and is able to tell that an animal has a broken back or whatever injury when it gets hit by a car, but in the case of the elk on video is not qualified to make that decision. Maybe the animal you hit with your car just got knocked a little silly. As far as the DWR is concerned both would be poaching. So for some of you to say you would put one animal down then call the people that kill the other POACHERS....is kinda hypocritical. I agree that you should be prepared for the consequences but at the same time you should also be prepared for the consequences if you shoot a robber in your house. But if it was me. The robber is dead every time. Good discussion though. So for all of you that have ever thought about ending the life of an animal you think is suffering in any way, sounds like you might all just be poachers in waiting. <---Sarcasm, just in case you missed it.
 
I have a little bit of experience raising elk within a high fence, and I have seen this type of behavior. It is severe copper deficiency. Elk that live in an area with low copper levels in the soil are prone to the effects of copper deficiency. Also areas that have high levels of molybdenum which attaches to copper to prevent absorption into the bloodstream will have copper deficient elk.

Typical symptoms are: loss of weight, diarrhea, hooves grow long and curly, hair or coat is curly and rough, staggering gate, especially in the back end. The hip joints will deteriorate to the point that the elk will walk with a stiff legged swagger.

The final symptoms that occur just before death will be drunken like staggering, shortness of breath, and then unconsciousness followed by death a few hours later.

Once an elk gets to the stage of the bull in the video, most of them will not live more than 3-4 days.


I'm not a video veterinarian, and the bull may have something different than I think, but from my experience, I would tend to believe it is copper deficiency. The only way to tell for sure is to send in the liver to a lab and have it tested for copper levels.

If the fish and game would/could have found the bull and took care of it, then sent in the liver and other tissue samples along with a stool sample, they could have found the cause of the problem.

DeerBeDead
 
sorry, i'm not a tree hugger, i might have shot it........... it would have been the right thing to do. you dont have to be an a bio to see that, but maybe you have to be a jackazz to not see it?

it's not poaching, and i'd bet anything once you showed this video to any judge/ jury, you would at most get a piddly fine. any true outdoorsman would pay that fine to put this guy down.

a poacher does it for the A: horns- which he dont have

or B: the meat - which i wouldn't eat his.

why do people have to be boneheads?
 
>it's not poaching, and i'd bet
>anything once you showed this
>video to any judge/ jury,
>you would at most get
>a piddly fine. Any
>true outdoorsman would pay that
>fine to put this guy
>down.

You go to court, get sentenced to pay a fine, but yet you are not doing anything wrong??? You sir, are a complete idiot! A true outdoorsman would follow the rules of the state! A true outdoorsman would call the DWR and have them determine the illness. Afterall they are hired for that purpose. You don't go around taking matters into your own hands. It's not your job and it's not your call!
Did you go around killing all the people that brought us the Swine flu last year???? Why not??? They were affecting our population here in the USA, and we needed to stop it right? It's the right thing to do and worth going to jail over right? I sure the judge would give you a "Piddly" 50 years to life, but it would be the right thing to do right? I would really like to know, because it's pretty close to the same issue. You think you can do what YOU think is best, but you don't know jack! If you want to manage our herds, go to school and apply for a Wildlife Biologist job. Until then, keep your guns at home when Hunting season is over, you shouldn't have them with you anyway. You people really scare me! I can't believe some of the things people are saying on this public forum. I really hope the DWR is watching this.
Killing a sick elk and just leaving the carcass there will do nothing to help us to help the herds. Samples need to be taken and investigations need to be done. We have trained biologist that do this for a living, so please let them do thier job.
 

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