Mule Deer and CWD

jims

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There currently is dire concern about mule deer declines across the Western US and additional concern in regard to spread and prevalence of CWD.

Some of you may not be aware of the long history of CWD in Colorado. CWD was originally detected in mule deer in an experiment station near Fort Collins, Colorado in the early 1980's. CWD was first documented in wild populations in Northern Colorado in 1985.

One little known fact is that CWD has been in wild mule deer in this same Northern Colorado area as early as 1969. CWD has likely been in Colorado for over 50 years! There has never been a die-off and the mule deer in areas where CWD first came into existence in 1969 are doing just fine.

A great example of deer doing fine where CWD has existed since the 1980's is on the Arsenal near Denver. The CPW actually culled this area way back in the 1980's but discovered culling did nothing. The CPW has allowed the herd to increase and world class mature bucks have thrived every year since culled practices were suspended in the 1980's. There is no doubt that older age class bucks and deer herds survive and do fine where CWD exists. Below is an older age class buck currently found on the Arsenal where CWD prions in soils have existed since the early 1980's.

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Culling projects, increase in deer tags, and late rifle rut season dates have been used by wildlife managers to possibly prevent the rate of the spread and prevalence of CWD as early as the 1980's in Colorado. Unfortunately, none of these large-scale projects have been successful at preventing the spread and prevalence of CWD prions that last centuries on the soil and landscape.

It appears that Western States are re-inventing the wheel with culling projects, deer tag increases, and late rifle rut season dates that were already discovered to be ineffective in Colorado back in the 1980's and 90's when CWD first was discovered. I thought it would be a good timing to bring to attention several large-scale CWD projects that I will include in the next post.

What I find interesting with this earlier research is that each of these large-scale project's results mention that concentrated efforts on thinning and monitoring CWD herds were ineffective. Several of these publications actually mention that predators do a great job of culling weak and sick deer. My guess is that tough winters and drought years also do a great job of reducing CWD prevalence.

Wildlife managers may actually be doing more harm than good by increasing deer tag numbers and eliminating older age class bucks. It has become apparent that captive deer breeders are using this to their advantage by using CWD alleles to their advantage. It seems odd to me that the same thing hasn't been used in wild deer herds.

There are two genotypes of deer with gene 225. One is 225S and the other is 225F. The 225S deer can get CWD more easily and die from it in three years. The 225F deer are much more resistant and if they do get CWD, they live seven years. Dr. Hobbs at CSU did a long-term study in Livermore that showed that out of 12 deer that got CWD during his study, only 1 of 12 was 225F. He also concluded that CWD would not lead to the extinction of deer. Dr. Hobbs also noted that the 225F deer were becoming more numerous as time went by because 225S deer were getting the disease easier and more often and die off.

In addition, the removal of mature bucks, only some of which are 225S bucks that are thought to get CWD during the rut from interacting with several groups of females while searching for estrus females, is the wrong thing to do. These older CWD positive 225S bucks are spreading the disease to 225S females and also getting the disease from 225S females in the first place. But by removing the mature bucks that MIGHT carry CWD and other mature bucks that are not carrying CWD, we are pushing CWD into the remaining younger bucks all the earlier in their life cycles when they start breeding more often because the older bucks are dead. This means more bucks get CWD at a younger age, which is not good.

If wildlife management programs would allow 225S deer to slowly die out through natural selection, the 225F deer will become the most plentiful genotype. In some areas that have had CWD for many years, the 225F deer populations are already at 50%, up from 10%. Captive deer breeders in TX and other states have already stopped breeding 225S white-tailed deer and their facilities are almost completely CWD-free. It will take longer in the wild but this is the solution, not humans killing more deer. CWD is now found in the soil, water and can even uptake in plants that deer eat. We are not going to stop it with more licenses where CWD is already fairly common. This increased harvest is actually making CWD prevalence last longer.

With that said, it is important that hunters and mule deer enthusiasts stand up and resist some of the culling projects, increase in tags, and late rifle rut season dates proposals. None of these are science-based and have proven to be ineffective at preventing the spread and prevalence of CWD. These strategies seem meaningless if CWD prions persist in soils for centuries.

We may want to re-think long-term management strategies and go back to the basics by stepping back and allowing mother nature to take her course. Allow "survival of the fittest" to win battles. Hopefully surrounding states learn from Colorado's mistakes.
 
I thought this was an interesting 5 year study that was conducted in the early 2000's. Even with testing approximately 50% of the entire deer population and culling every CWD positive tested individual for 5 consecutive years there was only minimal decrease in CWD positive males and static prevalence in does.

If it is not possible to eliminate CWD by selectively culling every known CWD positive individual during a 5 year period you can imagine how difficult it would be to impact CWD levels on a broad scale by implementing late rifle rut season dates and increasing tag quotas.

These non-selective approaches do nothing to remove the prevalence of CWD. This reinforces the idea that CWD prions will infect perfectly healthy deer even after every CWD positive deer is culled. Your guess is as good as mine how many centuries it takes before CWD prions disappear off landscapes?

Also, notice the comments in the last paragraph in the comments section in reference to the importance of predators.

INTRODUCTION

In theory, culling that preferentially removes infected animals (selective culling) should reduce CWD prevalence even more effectively than random culling, provided that infected deer are detected early in the disease course and a substantial proportion of the population is screened annually (Gross and Miller 2001; Wild et al. 2011). More specifically, an early model suggested that CWD prevalence could be reduced by 50% over a 5 yr period via selective culling using a 50% annual testing regimen (Gross and Miller 2001). To that end, we evaluated a test and cull strategy (Wolfe et al. 2004b) for suppressing CWD in a naturally-infected, free-ranging mule deer herd wintering in the town of Estes Park and in Rocky Mountain National Park, Colorado, US. We demonstrated the feasibility of our approach to selective culling in the urban portions of our study area during December 2002−May 2003 (Wolfe et al. 2004b). Here we report the overall outcomes of our 5-yr effort to suppress CWD in free-ranging mule deer via selective culling.

PROJECT METHODS

We evaluated a test and cull strategy for lowering chronic wasting disease (CWD) prevalence in a naturally-infected, free-ranging mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) herd wintering in the town of Estes Park, Colorado, US and in nearby Rocky Mountain National Park. We tested 48−68% of the estimated number of adult (≥1 yr old) deer annually for 5 yr via tonsil biopsy immunohistochemistry (IHC), collecting 1,251 samples from >700 individuals and removing IHC-positive deer.
DISCUSSION

Our efforts to “test and cull” CWD-infected mule deer in the Estes Park and Rocky Mountain National Park area minimally stimulated a trend toward decreased prevalence among males and held prevalence static among females.

In some aspects, our culling of known CWD-positive animals simulated the effect of natural predators in the wild that exploit vulnerabilities and weakness when selecting prey. Although we detected some infected individuals well before clinical signs would have been discernible to a predator, at the herd level our testing effort likely was not as persistent or effective as that of natural predators. Our findings could lend credence to the potential role of predation−of sufficiently high intensity and duration−in helping suppress CWD outbreaks if CWD-positive individuals are preferentially targeted by predators (Wild et al. 2011).


 
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I found another interesting publication from Europe. CWD was first detected in Norway reindeer in Norway in March 2016. The government decided to take a proactive approach and culled the entire herd of 2,400 animals. Only 4 cases of reindeer and 2 moose were detected before culling the entire population of reindeer.

Five years after the entire reindeer herd was culled CWD was diagnosed in 20 wild reindeer, eight moose and two red deer in Norway as well as in four moose in Sweden and two in Finland.

This illustrates that even if every animal is culled in an area with extremely low CWD prevalence and prions in the soil, CWD prions left on the landscape will still infect and spread across healthy cervids and landscape in culled and non-culled adjacent areas years after animals are culled and eliminated.

With that said, wildlife managers may ask themselves how late rifle rut season dates and thinning deer populations is going to eliminate or even slow the prevalence and spread of CWD across North America when culling entire herds or every positive tested animal has proven ineffective?

What good was done by culling an entire population of 2,400 reindeer when there were even more CWD reindeer present 5 years after the entire population was eliminated? How many years would it take for prions in the soil to disappear with 0 reindeer presence before re-introduction is feasible? Culling and thinning populations have been found to be ineffective and non-sustainable approaches.


The Norwegian government decided to cull the affected reindeer population. All animals (about 2400) were culled and tested for CWD and 18 new cases were identified. After this, comprehensive surveillance of cervids, including thousands of wild and semi-domesticated reindeer revealed no new cases, until 2020 when a wild reindeer buck tested positive. This animal was shot during regular hunt at Hardangervidda, approximately 70 km south of the culled population and in the heart of the largest wild reindeer population in Western Europe, counting some 7-9 thousand animals.

Clearly, CWD in wild Norwegian reindeer had not been eliminated with the initial culling.
 
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Some good information, but I am pretty sure the first cases discovered at CSU were in 1967


No one will ever know for sure, but as far as I am concerned, experimenting at CSU with scrapie positive sheep (a cousin prion disease) in the same area as their deer experiments led to the development of CWD in the US. Starving deer experiments (which would lower there natural immunity to any disease) co-mingled with sheep with scrapie....... What could go wrong?? No rock solid proof, but a lot of smoking gun evidence. Such as the maps of positive cases from the 60s til today. The way it spread across the country is in livestock trailers with the boom of the deer industry.

But I 100% agree that culling doesn't work. They know that culling failed and more tags and rut hunts aren't to try and get rid of it. They are trying to slow down its spread. But that is fallacy in my book. Nature/survival of the fittest is the only hope we have

That said, I don't want it on my ranch any sooner than it gets there naturally. So, very restrictive rules for deer farmers are the only effective way to do that. They want you to believe its everywhere and has been so for a long time. Not true But I know for sure that deer are transported illegally every day in this country. Too much money in it.
 
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And if its been in Mule deer forever in the US, why are there areas in CO with no cases yet? There are no cases that I know of in the US that can be explained by spontaneous emergence of the disease other than CSU. As far as I have seen, all the cases we now have can be explained by natural spread from the area around CSU and hauling infected animals to other areas in a trailer.

That said, the origin of the disease is a moot point at this time. The cat is out of the bag. What do we do about it going forward??

Culling and eliminating the older age class bucks is NOT the way to accomplish anything.
 
A lot of broad brush strokes, BS assumptions, and misinformation.

Do state agencies, epidemiologists, wildlife breeders, biologists, and sportsmen have all the management answers? Nope

There is no large scale conspiracy against deer and sportsmen. This is a real threat to deer hunting.
 
A bigger threat to mule deer is cutting their numbers so low that the best genetics in the herd are reduced and even eliminated! Take a look at the on-going Utah controversy!

It's pretty much a wake-up call that culling, reducing herds and older age class bucks does absolutely nothing!
 
A bigger threat to mule deer is cutting their numbers so low that the best genetics in the herd are reduced and even eliminated! Take a look at the on-going Utah controversy!

It's pretty much a wake-up call that culling, reducing herds and older age class bucks does absolutely nothing!
Opinion. Not science.
 
False tri. There has been proof that cwd isn't killing the herds like the state has been. Colorado issued an extra 600 tags for unit 22 for does just to try and "combat" cwd. Bulllllllllll crap. And that was just one unit. If I recollect correctly colorado added over 6000 extra tags to like.....6 or 7 different units combined just to combat cwd......want to know how many Dear were dying yearly from cwd.........not 6000....that's for sure. Colorado basically did a mass kill on the deer population...all in the name of science.
 
The fact is, CWD has been around since the late 1960's and there has never been a major die-off. If CWD is so bad how could prions exist and build in soils for up to 60 years without a major die-off?

Lots of published data available about CWD and resistant alleles! The sky is not falling down and mule deer are doing just fine!
 
False and False.

Mountainsqwabbler, it isn't about curing CWD when they are culling deer.

Jim's,

Are there as many deer now as there was in the 60's?
 
The fact is, CWD has been in Northern Colorado since the late 1960’s. The deer are doing just fine!

So 100 years from today when there still is no massive die-off of deer from CWD and prions are still in soils are you still going to recommend culling, late rut hunts, and decreasing deer populations?
 
Tristate, go take a drive around the Arsenal where CWD has been around for over 30 years and notice how many older age class Monster Muley bucks are in an isolated, confined high fenced property with CWD prions in the soil and doing just fine!

My guess is those old aged Monster Muley bucks have incredible genes and resistance for fighting CWD. All the old bucks on that property are living long, healthy lives breeding does, and sending the best genetic material to their progeny.

Example of exceptional, old age buck that is doing just fine on the Arsenal in Colorado where CWD prions have existed in soil for over 30 - 40 years! He looks pretty healthy to me!

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The fact is, CWD has been in Northern Colorado since the late 1960’s. The deer are doing just fine!

So 100 years from today when there still is no massive die-off of deer from CWD and prions are still in soils are you still going to recommend culling, late rut hunts, and decreasing deer populations?
Really? Are there just as many deer there as there was in the 60's?

As for your question about 100 years from now I seriously doubt any of our descendents will be hunting mule deer.
 
Tristate, go take a drive around the Arsenal where CWD has been around for over 30 years and notice how many older age class Monster Muley bucks are in an isolated, confined high fenced property with CWD prions in the soil and doing just fine!

My guess is those old aged Monster Muley bucks have incredible genes and resistance for fighting CWD. All the old bucks on that property are living long, healthy lives breeding does, and sending the best genetic material to their progeny.

Example of exceptional, old age buck that is doing just fine on the Arsenal in Colorado where CWD prions have existed in soil for over 30 - 40 years! He looks pretty healthy to me!

View attachment 141122


Your "guess" isn't science.

You aren't listening and you aren't learning. They aren't culling deer to have more deer.

Do you here yourself? "The harvest plan hasn't been working because there are plenty of deer in Colorado"??????? This doesn't work because it worked??????
 
I have no idea what Tri is saying due to my use of the block feature. But anyone who says they have a better/credible idea than survival of the fittest, let them speak up. The only real way currently to slow down its spread (something I very much want to do) is by stopping transport of live deer/elk in trailers. Increased harvest to slow its spread is not the answer.

I have proposed in Texas that we erect deer proof fences along highways to restrict movement from infected areas. But that only postpones the inevitable. I would like to postpone it from getting on my ranch for as long as possible. But it has now been diagnosed on a deer farm less than 10 miles away. How did that infected deer get there? In a trailer of course.

I know quite a bit about CWD as a veterinarian. But I know there are way smarter people out there who I hope someday can pull a rabbit out of a hat on this disease. Not holding my breath.
 
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The Arsenal is on the east edge of Denver if anyone with an open mind wants to look at the results of allowing nature take it's course and allow mature bucks like this one with the very best fitness, health, and genetics in the herd live in sites where CWD has been in existence for 30 to 40 years. There have been numerous old age class bucks doing well on the Arsenal for over 30-40 years on the Arsenal! I can pretty much guarantee these same type of bucks will be around 100 years from today unless something unexpected happens!

Need I say more?

CPW Buck2.jpg
 
The Arsenal is on the east edge of Denver if anyone with an open mind wants to look at the results of allowing nature take it's course and allow mature bucks like this one with the very best fitness, health, and genetics in the herd live in sites where CWD has been in existence for 30 to 40 years. There have been numerous old age class bucks doing well on the Arsenal for over 30-40 years on the Arsenal! I can pretty much guarantee these same type of bucks will be around 100 years from today unless something unexpected happens!

Need I say more?

View attachment 141125
Yes Jim's. It is doubtful that mule deer will be extinct in 100 years. Nobody that I know involved in studying CWD thinks that CWD will make deer go extinct or that there will never be a big mature muley buck ever again.

What all of these states and most biologists I know seem to believe is that it is one more thing that will drive down numbers of an already dwindling herd and make for a lot less hunter opportunities. WHICH HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED AND IS HAPPENING.
 
I'm not super smart, andmy experience is based on what I see, but I don't believe the reason we are seeing less deer is CWD...I was elk hunting this year, and in 1st rifle there was a small group of very visible deer. A couple does, a tiny buck, and several fawns. Opening day of 2nd rifle I was driving past that spot and there were bloody drag tracks. At the camp below there were deer hanging. 2 does and a tiny buck. I stopped to talk. They had killed them where I saw the deer. 3 dead and one they couldn't find. That's how you kill deer. Kill those mamas that have bucked the odds and survived to adult stage.
 
I'm not super smart, andmy experience is based on what I see, but I don't believe the reason we are seeing less deer is CWD...I was elk hunting this year, and in 1st rifle there was a small group of very visible deer. A couple does, a tiny buck, and several fawns. Opening day of 2nd rifle I was driving past that spot and there were bloody drag tracks. At the camp below there were deer hanging. 2 does and a tiny buck. I stopped to talk. They had killed them where I saw the deer. 3 dead and one they couldn't find. That's how you kill deer. Kill those mamas that have bucked the odds and survived to adult stage.
The truth is lots of things and CWD are killing deer. But the numbers now aren't near what they were in the 1960's. So this looney notion that CWD hasn't done anything to the herds because yhe herds are just as good now, is crazy. The herds aren't just as good now.

He gets to see a beautiful big buck on a 15,000 acre refuge and bases all of his CWD conclusions upon that.

I really wish Jim's was correct. I really do. I really wish this would just get sorted out through some type of natural selection. But it really isn't look like that is working in reality. At the same time nobody is talking about the risks of a single genotype selection against a disease. You can actually be setting them up for a far worse outcome than CWD.
 
I can post a long profile of Arsenal bucks that lived long, healthy lives in the face of being in a CWD hotbed for 30 to 40 years. This is a prime example that bucks can live long lives even where there is CWD.

I have never said that CWD hasn’t thinned herds in these areas. I’ve said there has never been a major die-off anywhere including the hotbeds where cwd prions have built up in the soil for 50+ years.

Culling, increasing tags, and rut hunting dates have done nothing to prevent the prevalence and spread of cwd. I’ve mentioned numerous times that predators do a fantastic job of culling the sick a weak.

I’ll say it again, all the Arsenal bucks over the past 30 years are prime examples of 1) mature bucks living long, healthy lives and 2) breeding does and passing alone the very best genetic material to survive disease and other survival mechanisms in the face of cwd.

According to Tristate the Arsenal should cull those older age bucks because they spread cwd. According to Tristate bucks on the arsenal should die from cwd before their 3rd or 4th birthdays. According to Tristate……
 
I've never said that a buck can't reach maturity where there is CWD. Not once.

But the fact is fewer bucks will.

Now you agree it is thinning herds. That's less hunting opportunity AND THATS WHAT BIOLOGISTS ARE TRYING TO PREVENT.

Predators do a great job of getting the sick and the week. Okay, how do they do picking off CWD that are spreading the disease without exhibiting any weakness??? That's a real problem with this specific disease.

You don't understand what a genetic bottle neck is and how it can endanger a species. You don't understand what fatality genes are. Both of these things can occur when you are "selecting " for a single allele. It can be a dangerous solution.

Once again you are cherry picking an example of a big pretty deer on a WILDLIFE REFUGE and using that to shape your CWD opinions. THAT'S NOT SCIENCE.
 
I think there is some evidence that taking the older age class of bucks will lower the overall incidence in the herd and slow down its spread to new areas. But there is zero reason to do it in places where it has been for 30 yrs. If anyone can show me a place where doing this eliminates the disease, let him speak up:

🦗 🦗 🦗
 
Maybe the nerve gas at the arsenal makes them deer tougher.

The arsenal isn’t representative of anything except that deer can live longer if they aren’t hunted for 4 months a year by people. It’s literally a zoo.

That coming from someone who frequented there for YEARS.
 
There takes no science to know that CWD has been around for 50 years with absolutely no complete and massive die-offs like all the "science" models have predicted. Bottom-line, culling and thinning herds do literally nothing to get rid of CWD where prions exist centuries in the soil.

That was the case in the 1980s when the first published studies mentioned above were conducted in the Estes Valley and Northern Larimer County. The CPW completely eliminated culling programs immediately after those long-term studies were published..end of story.

The CPW learned that even selectively culling almost every CPW positive deer in those herds had almost no impact on prevalence and CWD continued to spread outside of those hot zones.

From those first published science-based studies, they discovered culling and thinning herds did little more than the benefit of allowing predators, winters, and drought thin the sick and weak.

The CPW immediately discontinued culling and thinning projects after those experiments. Resilient herds slowly but surely recovered in even the hottest zones with CWD. I'm not sure how many times I have to say it but there were no massive die-offs in 50 years.

The CPW allowed nature to run its course but have slowly but surely increased deer tags across Colorado the past 30 years. I guess that hasn't been enough because the CPW continued to increase tags and included rut rifle dates in their last 5 year plan.

Why not non-selectively have hunters kill both CWD positive and thin totally healthy deer that likely carry resistant alleles. Makes absolutely no sense!

Those of us that spend countless hours in the epi-center hotbeds of CWD were pretty much enraged by the CPW's sudden interest in re-inventing the CWD wheel. Does that make any sense when the CPW already knew from published experiments that "test and cull" experiments that killed just about every positive CWD deer didn't work?

Old age class bucks with the very best genes have found a way to survive (when offered the chance). Culling, thinning herds, and rut hunts are totally meaningless when prions exist in soils for centuries.

In the case of CWD, natural selection is key to survival. Not only do mature does and bucks carry top genes in the herd but young learn from them how to survive winters, drought, predators, etc. Having 2 year old bucks breeding young does and struggling each year to figure things out is ludicrous!

Obviously resistant alleles are dynamic and constantly changing. This is exactly why deer in hot zones have never reached epidemic low numbers and die-offs that scientists predicted back in the 1980's have never happened. Saying that one gene will lead to the demise of deer is ridiculous! How have the mule deer survived 50+ years of CWD?

Let's return to the bottom-line Tristate. What good is done by rut season hunts and thinning struggling deer herds when culling every CWD positive deer does almost nothing to lower prevalence and the spread of CWD? Prions last centuries in the soil.

I'm sure there may be something more promising down the road than allowing natural selection to take its course but currently that makes a lot more sense than thinning already struggling deer herds.
 
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As I recall, the pens at CSU where the infected deer were first found, were stripped of topsoil, a layer of Lyme put down and new topsoil brought in. Then they waited several years before putting deer back in those pens. Deer still got CWD when placed in those pens.
 
For those advocating culling the mature bucks, if they are advocating removing all bucks over 3.5 yrs from the herd, how long will this rule be in effect? It would have to be forever. This solves nothing long term.

If that statement is wrong, show me the science and places where it has worked long term to eliminate this disease and we can have hope to someday go back to letting them all grow. Not just theories that it will work.

The only scientific fact I can state on how to prevent the spread of this disease: stop hauling deer in trailers to new locations unless 100% of deer test negative. And even that is risky. That’s the only fact that you can take to the bank. All others are speculation. Another fact: I now have a deer less than 10 miles from my ranch that was hauled there in a trailer.
 
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Cpw has inadvertently killed more deer in the last 5-10 years in the name of "SCIENCE" than CWD has in over 50 years.

If CWD was so deadly and potent In deer populations and killing them so drastically, why are we not seeing these effects? So many of us on here in Colorado are in the area where cwd is supposedly extremely high...yet I can bet 90% of us haven't seen a deer that was sick with it?

But you're saying that cpw issuing an increases number in tags to thin herds is the way to go?

I'm not sure I'm on the right page with said argument but that's what I'm getting from what I've read.
 
MountainSqwabler, Your comments above are right on the money! That is exactly what we've been saying for years to deaf ears.

The only thing I can figure out is that the CPW's theory about older age class bucks spreading CWD is a ploy to increase tag quotas with later rut seasons to generate more $!

Sadly, the mule deer herds across Colorado are taking the punishment at their own expense. Nothing has been gained by doing this.

I'll continue to broadcast this across the web to Wyoming and other adjoining states because what Colorado is doing is a travesty. I certainly hope other states recognize this and don't make the same mistake Colorado is doing.
 
This is a complicated issue. I've studied it for decades and am still after it. CWD does kill deer but it is only one of many factors that kill deer. So do hunters, predators, weather, vehicles, other diseases and more. Season management is the #1 killer of mule deer.

I live, hunt and have guided where CWD started since it they found it at CSU and immediately moved it up to the Sybille Research Center close to where I live, and right where we hunt. . I'm old. I was a friend and UW colleague of Dr. Beth Williams, who "discovered" and named CWD. Since Beth has passed away, I won't reiterate the things she said to me.

I will say that Dr. Mike Miller, the CO CWD guru has done more harm to mule deer in North America than any person in history. Results of his own research show that his "depopulation model" absolutely does no good. There's recent research that shows once the CWD prions are endemic and the disease has been present for an extended period, killing deer to minimize disease spread simply does not work. The CWD threshold Wyoming Game and Fish uses is 5% of the population infected with CWD. Above that, they want to follow Dr. Miller's depopulation model. But they neglect to mention that Wyoming research shows it just won't work once the prions are in the soil. It's been here for 40-50 years, for crying out loud.

There is research in Europe and nonreplicated work here in the U.S. that shows specific chelated mineral supplements will suppress the CWD symptoms as well. There's also some Nebraska work that shows genetic resistance in SE Wyoming as well as in Nebraska.

As a person that worked for UW for almost 40 years and has been outfitter for 37 years in the hotbed of CWD, I am absolutely convinced we are seeing genetic resistance in our deer. For Wyoming Game and Fish to even consider having late seasons to eradicate the 3+ year old bucks is insane. As has been mentioned, those are the exact deer we should be saving. They have demonstrated the genetic strength to survive CWD. Let them pass on those valuable genes. Killing those older age class bucks could very well set us back another 40-50 years in the movement toward genetic resistance.

I also think the genetic resistance is found in "pockets." Not sure if it is soil, feed, crops or what that causes bucks to live longer in those areas. We kill mature bucks on some ranches, and on others, the deer are struggling. (We outfit on many acres in 6 Wyoming counties.)

I think there are numerous valid research opportunities that could look into these issues. But from what I see, the G&F and local university folks are not interested in anything unless it supports their current mantra and agenda. And that's Mike Miller's Colorado depopulation model. They have circled their wagons and are shooting inward. Sad....

I think I've mentioned this before, but go back and look at how scrapie was solved, and solved quickly. I was involved on a UW Research Center with that effort. It was resolved through genetic resistance and handled fairly quickly. Like others, I believe CWD is just scrapie in cervids. Genetic resistance is the only viable answer. Find those resistant deer and use them as breeding stock.

That said, in the meantime, we need to go back and focus on biologically sound game management. (How novel is that?) That includes setting priorities. Do we value mule deer above lions? Bears? Coyotes? What about elk and whitetail intrusion on mule deer habitat and key muley areas? I can say that bear, eagle, and especially coyote and lion numbers are way up over the 1960's we seem to use as a comparator. (Yep, I was around in the 60's) Texas does a way better job of handling predators than Wyoming. Utah and Nevada have opened up liberal seasons on lions. Colorado, in their infinite wisdom, has decided predators are more valuable than ungulates.

Like I said in the beginning, it's complicated. But by setting priorities, we can make sound decisions to benefit mule deer. But in all honesty, I don't believe the decision makers are inclined to do that at the present time. They'd rather "play" with deer lives and numbers than enhance mule deer populations.

I'll close by saying I'm no internet warrior. You guys can beat on me and pick apart what I've said. I'm not going to provide links or scientific references, but they are out there. Help yourself. I don't make this stuff up. I'm also not going to spend time responding to you rebuffing my comments. Not my game. Sorry. It'd be better if we all agreed to work on projects to benefit mule deer through science, research, habitat improvement or lobbying for better management. Let's do more of that and spend less time worrying about what somebody says about us on an internet forum.

Thanks to all of you for caring about mule deer. I really like MM and coming on here.
 
If prions exist for decades, why are processing facilities even allowed to test for CWD? You know animals are running through the pipeline faster than testing results can be produced.🤔
 
This is a complicated issue. I've studied it for decades and am still after it. CWD does kill deer but it is only one of many factors that kill deer. So do hunters, predators, weather, vehicles, other diseases and more. Season management is the #1 killer of mule deer.

I live, hunt and have guided where CWD started since it they found it at CSU and immediately moved it up to the Sybille Research Center close to where I live, and right where we hunt. . I'm old. I was a friend and UW colleague of Dr. Beth Williams, who "discovered" and named CWD. Since Beth has passed away, I won't reiterate the things she said to me.

I will say that Dr. Mike Miller, the CO CWD guru has done more harm to mule deer in North America than any person in history. Results of his own research show that his "depopulation model" absolutely does no good. There's recent research that shows once the CWD prions are endemic and the disease has been present for an extended period, killing deer to minimize disease spread simply does not work. The CWD threshold Wyoming Game and Fish uses is 5% of the population infected with CWD. Above that, they want to follow Dr. Miller's depopulation model. But they neglect to mention that Wyoming research shows it just won't work once the prions are in the soil. It's been here for 40-50 years, for crying out loud.

There is research in Europe and nonreplicated work here in the U.S. that shows specific chelated mineral supplements will suppress the CWD symptoms as well. There's also some Nebraska work that shows genetic resistance in SE Wyoming as well as in Nebraska.

As a person that worked for UW for almost 40 years and has been outfitter for 37 years in the hotbed of CWD, I am absolutely convinced we are seeing genetic resistance in our deer. For Wyoming Game and Fish to even consider having late seasons to eradicate the 3+ year old bucks is insane. As has been mentioned, those are the exact deer we should be saving. They have demonstrated the genetic strength to survive CWD. Let them pass on those valuable genes. Killing those older age class bucks could very well set us back another 40-50 years in the movement toward genetic resistance.

I also think the genetic resistance is found in "pockets." Not sure if it is soil, feed, crops or what that causes bucks to live longer in those areas. We kill mature bucks on some ranches, and on others, the deer are struggling. (We outfit on many acres in 6 Wyoming counties.)

I think there are numerous valid research opportunities that could look into these issues. But from what I see, the G&F and local university folks are not interested in anything unless it supports their current mantra and agenda. And that's Mike Miller's Colorado depopulation model. They have circled their wagons and are shooting inward. Sad....

I think I've mentioned this before, but go back and look at how scrapie was solved, and solved quickly. I was involved on a UW Research Center with that effort. It was resolved through genetic resistance and handled fairly quickly. Like others, I believe CWD is just scrapie in cervids. Genetic resistance is the only viable answer. Find those resistant deer and use them as breeding stock.

That said, in the meantime, we need to go back and focus on biologically sound game management. (How novel is that?) That includes setting priorities. Do we value mule deer above lions? Bears? Coyotes? What about elk and whitetail intrusion on mule deer habitat and key muley areas? I can say that bear, eagle, and especially coyote and lion numbers are way up over the 1960's we seem to use as a comparator. (Yep, I was around in the 60's) Texas does a way better job of handling predators than Wyoming. Utah and Nevada have opened up liberal seasons on lions. Colorado, in their infinite wisdom, has decided predators are more valuable than ungulates.

Like I said in the beginning, it's complicated. But by setting priorities, we can make sound decisions to benefit mule deer. But in all honesty, I don't believe the decision makers are inclined to do that at the present time. They'd rather "play" with deer lives and numbers than enhance mule deer populations.

I'll close by saying I'm no internet warrior. You guys can beat on me and pick apart what I've said. I'm not going to provide links or scientific references, but they are out there. Help yourself. I don't make this stuff up. I'm also not going to spend time responding to you rebuffing my comments. Not my game. Sorry. It'd be better if we all agreed to work on projects to benefit mule deer through science, research, habitat improvement or lobbying for better management. Let's do more of that and spend less time worrying about what somebody says about us on an internet forum.

Thanks to all of you for caring about mule deer. I really like MM and coming on here.
Very good write up. You did great!
 
Again,

Here we are talking about no die off yet there are very very very few places that have bear the number of mule deer they had 50 years ago.

Again,

Culling deer isn't a tool for dealing with prions in the soil of already infected areas. Why yall are so attached to this idea as an argument is beyond me.

As for how using genetics to fight this disease IF what Jims says is true those alleles will still be chosen when culling occurs. As for that's how they got rid of scrapie, that is correct. However the domestic sheep industry has suffered in other ways ever sense going through that genetic bottleneck. AND THAT WAS DONE UNDER CONTROLLED CONDITIONS.

I get it. Yall don't like culling. And culling isn't some disease silver bullet. But it is one of a few tools we can try and use that will buy time until we can find the silver bullet we need.
 
Culling only works when the disease is not endemic in the area. Once the disease is endemic and the prions are established in the ecosystem, culling is meaningless. Here's a quote from a research project completed by Conner:

Conner says: “Once prevalence reaches high levels and significant environmental accumulation has occurred, management options may become more limited.”

What Conner is saying is once the area has been infected for 40+ years like it is here, no good comes from culling the deer.

Maybe it's just getting started in other areas, so that can be relevant. But where I live and hunt, research has documented that culling does not help. Yet our game managers cling to the mantra that we need late season hunts to kill all bucks over 2 years old.

I said I wasn't going to cite any research, but maybe folks can read the Conner CWD study and see that culling has been determined to be ineffective once CWD has been present in the area for an extended time.

I agree that culling is a tool, but it is of no use in areas where we've had CWD since the 1960's.
 
Chances are man screwed up and created this disease at CSU. That said, we are pretty arrogant to believe we can do anything to eliminate it in wild deer, especially give the fact that it’s currently impossible to remove it from the environment.

But survival of the fittest is a pretty common and good thing. We, as humans, aren’t subject to that any more. But with CWD., I have to have faith nature will find a way to adapt and survive. It’s also in the prions best interest not to kill all its hosts as well. The confounding issue with this disease is that it doesn’t kill quickly. If it did, we would prob already know if resistance could be obtained.
 

Interesting podcast on the many reasons our deer herds are way down from the 1950-80s. Biggest thing is they were way overpopulated compared to historical numbers due to predator controls in place that started in the 20-30s . Lots of experimental data to back that up. Like some areas they controlled coyotes by arial shooting where fawn survival went from 45% yo 85%. Wasn’t always coyotes. Other area it’s cougars and bears. Is habitat a big factor? In certain areas for sure.

Are lower numbers of deer today influenced by CWD? Sure. But it’s only 1 of many factors.
 
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ICM I agree wholeheartedly !!
We've had cwd for too many years now for any culling to be effective in anything but decimating the deer herd.
We have fewer deer for sure where we hunt but still take mature bucks, 6+ yrs of age, and negative testing bucks. Right near Sybille.

By taking more mature bucks, I suspect the prevalence rate will not change in buck deer but we'll have fewer positive deer so they'll think that is a success.
 
I like what ICM deer said about leaving the 3+ year old deer to do the breeding. They have shown the genetic resistance to make it to that age. Like mentioned, it fills CPW pockets more to issue more tags and make everyone (non-residents and trophy hunters) think deer hunting is going in the toilet in the present and immediate future. It is mind- boggling to think what these idiots are doing in order to "save" mule deer herds. Good points made here. But unfortunately the ones making the decisions have their heads up each others' rears...
 

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