Muley Crazy & MDF?

P

Peashooter

Guest
Its no secret that I have been concerned with how deep the connection between these two is getting, but I ran across something last night that further proved this. It is my feeling that MDF's focus is on the conservation of mule deer, whereas MC's focus is on exploiting mule deer to sell more mags. In the latest edition of MDF magazine, just under the "From the Editor" column, there is a box titled "Submissions". In reading that box I found that if you submit anything to your favorite non-profit magazine(MDF mag) in the hopes that they may benefit from it, they may instead use it without your consent in MC magazine, which last time I checked was a for profit magazine that someone is probably making a pretty good buck off of.

I feel strongly that this is a line that should not be crossed. Who makes the decision what goes in MDF? If they get something really good that could sell lots of issues of MC, do they get it instead. I choose to support MDF, I choose not to buy MC. If something was intended for the benefit of MDF, keep it there, if the submitter chooses, let them send it to Muley Crazy.

Thanks to Founder for his consideration of this and allowing it to be posted.

Peashooter
 
Its a very good question. In fact, I think it's great that you are asking it. Seems that few people really care about the ethics and the morality of the MDF and etc. I agree, I think the MDF should go back to focusing on conservation and habitat, and the MC should go back to selling it's own magazine. The two together, while it it may sell more subcriptions, is not the direction the MDF should go, in my view. Just one of many corperate connections that have destroyed the MDF, in my view. . .I never will give them a dime until they change their philosphy and the motives.


"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
I sent you a PM you last night and told you that you should call up Ryan or David at the Muley Crazy office and get your answer right from the horses mouth. You have had a hard-on for MC and those guys and have gone out of your way to run them down every chance you get. WHY DONT YOU CALL THEM? I am sure that they will be more than happy to talk with you. You could also call Tony at the MDF office and talk with him. In two phone conversations I am sure that you could get the answers you seek. By posting your question here you are doing nothing more than trying to stir the pot. Seriously, if you have a question about MDF or MC you should at least have the sack to call them and discuss your concerns.

Drum
 
Drum,
Real classy you talking about hard-ons and my sack. I have emailed the GM of the MDF before and never recieved a response. As far as MC, I dont need to talk to them Drum, I know why they are doing this. The point of my post was not to find out why there is this situation, it is to call to question the practices of an organization that I give money to. I feel that my donation gives me that right, and I feel that it is ok to share somthing I found in the fine print that other supporters may have missed, but also deserve to know.

BTW, what is the purpose of a public forum if you feel all business should be handled via PM?
 
Drum makes a great point. However, perception is 9/10 reality and if there's one guy that thinks they are up to somthing, there are likely dozens more just like them. Moreover, talking with them is like talking to Ronco about the chicken rotisseray, they are salemen, plane and simple. They seldom, if ever take anything said about their perseption (unless they happen to agree) and use it to guide the organization. the MDF, like the MC is all about making money, regadless of the costs. In fairness the MC is NOT a 501(c)(3) so it's mission is to MAKE money. enough said, talk to them may get you an ear full of sales pitch, but I'd recomend you try it out, just to be sure. . .

"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
I for one have no problem with the relationship between MDF and MC. I support the MDF, and I am an avid fan of MC. MDF's magazine has improved drastically since Ryan began handling it. Some of you guys are always looking for a conspiracy or something to complain about. Go do some scouting for your upcoming hunts and put your energy to good use. I give both groups a big thumbs up.

Hawkeye
 
I don't want to be a jerk, but why does jelousy always come in to play with hunting. I think that Ryan Hatch is a stud. What he has done for the mule deer as well as the mule deer hunter is great. If you you plan on woking for free and not paying your bills than you might have room to talk. But I highly doubt that. I am sick of getting on this websight and seeing people bashing one another. Go back to the roots and start talking good about one another.
 
Hawkeye,
Unfortunately I did not draw a single tag this year, so not sure where I should be scouting.

I agree that the new MDF magazine is visually much better.
 
>
>BTW, what is the purpose of
>a public forum if you
>feel all business should be
>handled via PM?


I feel like anybody should have the opportunity to address your concern before you go to a public forum and try and discredit them or what they do. I do not feel like all business should be handled via a PM, if you talk with him and still have concerns them post them here.

The number to Muley Crazy Magazine is (435)644-2486

Drum
 
I don't hear any bashing. Peashooter simply asked if it's good or not for MDF.

Here's my take. I used to handle the website for SFW. I never posted photos that were sent to SFW on MonsterMuleys.com unless asked to do so by the person sending it. I also didn't use photos that were sent to MonsterMuleys.com on the SFW website unless I specifically asked first.

The MDF magazine is definitely better now than before (thanks to all the Utah conservation tag dollars). I think David does a great job with both magazines.

I would imagine that they just see submissions to MDF as a good source for getting photos and stories for Muley Crazy. Good or Bad???? That for each person to decide.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Fellow Sportsmen/women,

I understand your frustration with trying to get answers to questions about the relationship with MDF and Muley Crazy. Your questions are fair and legitimate. Let me see if I can clear up a few for you and if I stubble a bit, please forgive me.

I am the new State Chair of the MDF here in Utah and was asked to step into this position just a few short months ago. I have been affiliated with MDF for over three years now as well as other conservation organizations. I believe that each of these organizations have there pluses and minuses, but that basically they are all trying to improve upon the general habitat and well-being of the wildlife within their charters and mission statements.

The relationship with MDF and Muley Crazy came about because this organization felt that they could give us (members and non-members alike) a better magazine and content being teaming up with Muley Crazey. Now, like any higher profile individual or company, there is always going to be those out there that disagree with what you do or who you are. This includes the Ryan Hatch's, Tony Abbott's, Don Peay's, Doyle Moss'(other notibile individuals within the industry)... and many others including myself (Daren Tuttle) probably.

What it boils down to is that the MDF was able to provide a better magazine, with Ryan's assistance and expertise and I think we are very aware of the increased quality that we have been seeing over the past few months since this working relationship has been in place.

Now, your question about the sentence on the inside cover of the magazine about submissions of articles and how they can be used, is a good one and I will personally ask Tony Abbott and/or Mike Laughter (Regional Director - MDF) about it, when I see them this weekend at the Rocky Mountain Hunting show.

In the future, if there are any other questions about the Mule Deer Foundation, please direct them to my attention. If I do not hav ethe answer right then, I will either direct you to someone who can answer it or find the answer out for you. We all need to remember that we take enough heat from outside of the conservation arena, that we do not need to attack each other. I may have disagreements with individuals or even other conservation groups but, I will not attack them in public because that not only hurts them and myself but, the entire conservation, hunting, fishing and outdoors environment.

I hope this helps and does not offend anyone. I try to eliminate issues/problems, not increase or start them.

I can be reached at:

[email protected]
 
Mr. Tuttle,
I thank you very much for your reply, it is honestly the first one I have ever recieved from anyone in the MDF.

My concern is that you address it as these two "organizations". I do not disagree that the quality of the magazine has improved, although it sometimes feels like Ryan Hatch was present at every hunt highlighted in every issue. The point I want to reinforce is that of these two organizations, one is a foundation, the other is a private business. MDF members may choose to support, or not to support the private business, depending on their views. To not give them the choice, when clearly their intent was to support the foundation, not the private business in my oppinion is wrong. I can not think of any other private entity that recieves this kind of kick back from the MDF, so I am curious why they are allowed. I will also add that if they were sharing the submissions with someone such as the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, I dont think I would have a problem with it.

Thanks again for your response.
 
I will bring it up this weekend and get back with you either late this weekend or first thing next week. If you hae not heard back from me by Tuesday, August 8, please send me an e-mail to:

[email protected]

I do this as a volunteer and have a "real" job that does take a bit of time. It's terrible when people want you to earn money to pay bills. :)

In addition to asking the MDF personnel, I will be meeting with Don Peay in about an hour about the show this weekend and will ask him how SFW handles the foundation versus private business since that is what SFW and SFH is as well. It is probably pretty straight forward and easy.

I thank you for your inquiry. These type of questions need and should be raised in a courteous and professional manner and as the public and supporter of these type of conservation organizations, we should receive answers.

I will get back with you and appreciate your comments.
 
Founder,

Utah conservation tag dollars are being used to fund a magazine. Shouldn't the magazine be self-sustaining. I may be grossly misinformed, but I thought conservation tag dollars were to be spent on conservation projects....Not to be used to produce merchandise. If the publication of the magazine needs subsidizing, maybe it should be done away with. I like reading hunting stories as much as the next guy, but I would rather the money go toward our wildlife resources.



'It's all about the gut pile'
 
Well this post probably won't go over very well, but here it is anyway. I asked a MDF official why they would associate their organization with a person who has used and some would say abused Mule Deer to get gain, sometimes crossing the legal line. ( News link: right column down slightly www.fwoa.org/news/fwoanws29a.html ) He told me it was a business decision. That MDF, thru their association with this entity, could produce a better product. Muley Crazy also takes advantage of the situation by lowering their publishing cost. (Which is what any business should do) He said that the party involved was has shown remorse and by publishing the MDF magazine it is his way of giving back. I was told over and over how MDF is a business. It was a business decision to ask for less elk tags in Utah, even though the mule deer are under objective in these units.

I could go on and on, but to me it isn't just a business. It is the organization that carries the Mule Deer name and that should mean it holds itself to higher standings than just being a business. I was a member, but the direction taken by MDF has been too much for me.
 
Well, just like SFW, RMEF, and the other groups, MDF keeps 10% of conservation tag proceeds that they use on whatever they want.
(MDF turned things around when Tony took over---he knows how to get conservation tags & sale them)

A friend of mine and I were talking last night and he had asked WHY the conservation groups got to keep 10%. Some have referred to it as a "Marketing Fee". I don't know why for sure????
Maybe it's because the state feels that having groups is a good thing and wants to help keep the groups going. ?????

How do they work it in other states? Do conservation groups get to keep 10% in Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona and others?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Packout,
WOW, what an interesting link! I've never seen or heard anything of that before. Funny how some things go full circle.....stick with me on a little tangent here.

Last year prior to hunting season, I was contacted by a guy who said that in a round about way, he had gotten my name from a chain of contacts that started with the Muley Crazy guys. He called me, and informed me that he had purchased a 4th season Landowner voucher from a tag pimp for my area. He had never even visited my area before, just said that he had heard it was good, but needed some help. He paid like 14k for the tag, and on several occasions offered me several thousand dollars to guide him on a hunt for a big buck. He explained to me several ways that we could word it, mapping fee, finders fee, etc.. but to me all it was was illegal outfitting. He ended up finding someone to take him up on his offer, but thankfully went home empty handed, and ticked. During my conversations with him, he also informed me of how I could make an easy 10k scouting for some guys who were helping one of the CO governors tag holders (again, to me sounds like illegal outfitting). This guy is the whole reason that I started my crusade to change the current LO system. Now, here we are a year later, and you post this link, and there is his name! Apparently he has learned nothing from it and is still up to no good.

Before Drum gets all hot and bothered, I will say that it is not Ryan Hatch, I have never met, or spoken with him that I know of.
 
>Packout,
>WOW, what an interesting link!
>I've never seen or heard
>anything of that before.


Thats because any posts talking negatively about any of the "goldenboys" seems to somehow disappear rather quickly.
 
Peashooter, seems to me like you and Ryan have quite a bit to talk about. Please let us know how the conversation goes. I posted the # to Muley Crazy in an earlier post, anybody that has any questions should give them a call.

Unfortunately some people are so blinded by hate or jealousy they refuse to look at certain things with any certain objectivity.

Peashooter, there is no question that you have a passion for mule deer. I can see it in almost every post you make. Its very unfortunate that you wage your war on the internet without having made an attemt to fully understand the people you are fighting against. I would bet hard earned money that the some of the people you perceive as an enemy have views that are not that much different than yours. Even if you are farther apart on certain issues you will find an ally in the fight for the conservation and preservation of mule deer because of your shared passion. Instead of slamming the MDF and MC, why dont you use the MDF magazine as a vessel to promote some of your beliefs. I know that David is always looking to use well thought out, objective articles in the magazine. I also know that they are always up to answering questions and discussing the future of this sport. I urge you to give these guys a call. When you hang up if you still think that they are full of it then post it. I just hate to see judgements made based on hearsay and rumor.

Drum
 
Drum,
I have no hate or jealousy. What I don't think that you can understand is that not everyone wants to be famous. I believe that some of the biggest animals that have ever been harvested are hanging on walls, never to be seen by most, and definately never to hit the pages of monstermuleys, or Muley Crazy, possibly never to be entered into a record book. Why? because to some people a trophy is about way more than its score, or what could be gained by flashing it around on the internet and in magazines. For some people that stuff is great, and good for them. Its just not the way I've been raised. Not that this isnt a great site, or that MC isnt a great magazine, but with the advent of both, honeyholes are dropping off the face of the earth at an alarming rate. Instead of news of a good area taking years to spread, it happens in minutes.

I dont want to be famous. If I can do somthing that will benefit conservation, I will gladly do it without my name attached to it, I would actually prefer it that way.

As far as hearsay and rumors, I have used neither in this thread, and I'm sure you know that.

BTW, you can usually tell from others actions whether or not they are on your side. Typically you dont need to talk to them to find out. I believe in leading by example.
 
"MDF is dedicated to support and encourage RESPONSIBLE and ETHICAL behavior and awareness of issues among those whose actions affect mule deer."

Valid question...What is the MDF'S position on using aircraft in pursuit of mule deer?
 
Peashooter-who are you?Just wondering-your profile is disabled.I don't think something that happened almost ten years ago by some over-zealous muley fanatics should be brought up over and over and over.Ryan knows he made a mistake,and has paid his dues.Trust me on this one,he learned something.I really haven't seen his name associated with those other guys since all this happened.Whether or not he hangs with them,I don't know.I do know that this thread is starting to turn into another "bash Ryan Hatch" thread.As Drummond said-call him.You might be surprised.As far as MDF is concerned,they still get my money.Who else is going to support our beloved mule deer???
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-06 AT 09:03PM (MST)[p]nontypical,
Once again, it doesnt matter who I am, nobody cares. Second, I didnt bring the thing about Ryan up, heck, I didnt even know about that untill I clicked on that link today.

Not to mention that this whole thing has nothing to do with the original intent of this post.

I'm sure Ryan is a great guy, I've never said he isnt. Not so sure why you guys think I'm so in need of a phone conversation with him.
 
>On private indian reservations


LOL!

You're fixin' to get banned by the Mule Deer Mafia!
 
Interesting read Packout. I see some familiar names from the sheep hunting world in that article.

"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
 
Well, I guess I'll have to go straight to the MDF web site and ask my question. Or will it be side stepped there too?
 
To get back to the original question, I have no issues with MC using my material for either MDF or MC. It seems some perceive that the mags pay you for material. I've had stuff in Trophy Hunter, Hunting Illustrated and Muley Crazy and none of them pay. Do they profit from my writting or pics? Not really. It is the magazine as a whole, all the stories combined that sell the magazine. I don't think people buy them just to see my stuff. I sure wouldn't ;) It seems MC is putting alot of their own stuff in the new layout of MDF. So it seems it goes both ways. Don't see anything wrong with that.
I am not a member of MDF. I was years ago, but I don't see a benefit in my neck of the woods up here in the Great White North so I feel my dollars will be spent more wisely on local issues. I think organizations like MDF, RMEF, DU and many others are good things. Seems too many people get caught up in the politics of these organizations and seem to fight more than anything. How many bizilion threads I've seen on MM where people were whinning about this, that and the other thing. People spend too much time bitchin and not enough time lookin at the positives.
http://sdana.photosite.com/DanasHuntingPics/
 
Call them...

MDF: Toll-free 1-888-375-DEER

Muley Crazy: 1-435-644-2486

Guys, its really not difficult, call the people that can best answer your questions. When you have these guys on the line you will have ample opportunity to voice any complaints and concerns.

Please let us know how the conversations go.

Drummond
 
Not at all, these guys are looking for answers so I am steering them in the right direction. Unfortunately you can lead a horse to water....

Drum
 
I don't need to ask the wolf how the chickens are doing !! Pull your head out Drum, they'll either let you hang around orthey won't, you don't need to grovel.

It is an in appropriate relationship. Period.

JB


--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
Drums right guys, if everyone here that has a question about whats going on called those 2 #'s you'd get some answers. Thats alot of pressure... I mean, I mean... calls... yeah thats it caaalllls... in one day. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion so I don't have any questions for either entity but if I did, I'd pull up my pants, pick up a phone and find out for myself.
Good luck finding the answers you want and good luck this season.

Donnie
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-06 AT 09:38PM (MST)[p]It's all about the almighty dollar. If you have enough money you can do about anything you want including out of season hunting. Obviously, we already know what MDF's position on the chute planes is. They're still in the air. Also, numerous guides all networking with each other, under the table money for information, radios, game cameras,gps's,etc. Do the deer really have a chance? We're really losing sight of what the hunt is suppose to be. The future of real hunting looks grimm.
 
Drum,
What the frike dude! I don't need to call! I know where the guy lives. And he knows where I live. I spend most of my life with in site of his house. And don't really care what he has to say. On the phone or face to face. I don't need to hear all the canned speaches from the Muley Crazy Team or any body else. I'm asking a valid question here. Right here! Anyone that's sets on the leadership board of the MDF group can answer the question. It's not that difficult of a question. A simple yes we condone the use, or a no... we don't think air planes are helping deer recovery efforts much is all that im asking for...I don't recall asking you anything. Thanks anyway!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-06 AT 10:56PM (MST)[p]At the very first IEC Sportsman's Expo in Phoenix, when it used to be at the Civic Center, I stood right next to one the guys in that article that got busted while he told me, "the only reason more people don't use chute planes is because they don't have the balls to fly one." That's a direct quote. If there is anything that needs a Bobcat Tune-up, it's a chute plane.

Alot of People don't care about the hunt anymore, it's about the kill and final score. You ever notice in MC's articles, if there is just a good, better than average deer in there, maybe 170", they never tell the score? It just says Score- N/A. That's a freaking shame.
 
As the MDF state chair, I will try to answer your question. We have proposed to combined a bit of the MDF conservation money, along with other conservation organizations (SFW, RMEF...)& DWR to fund a project in the Cache unit that would use an aircraft to eliminate a certain amount of predators (coyotes) from that unit. The reason is because of the remoteness of the area and cost effectiveness of using this approach compared to others. This is the only project of this type in the state of Utah this year that I am aware of that MDF is a part of.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-06 AT 09:41AM (MST)[p]tuttut,

Be sure and tell the flight crews to keep their mouths shut about what they see out there. Let MC pay for their own air scouting.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
I said I would get back with one and here I am. Your questions are valid and I hope I have answers that will suffice.

1. Your comment about "Ryan Hatch being at every hunt" I cannot address. Please contact him and he can explain his rationale on that. My opinion though, is that if I ran a magazine, I probably would report on what I was doing as well as others.

2. The reason Muley Crazy is publishing our magazine is because of a few items:

A. They produce a quality appearance magazine and that is what we were after for the MDF magazine.

B. They were willing to do it at a reduced price thus saving us (all members of the MDF organization) money from an administrative side.

C. There is no other relationship either financially or jointly between MDF and/or Muley Crazey other than printing of the MDF magazine.

3. As you are probably aware, most of the individuals within the Conservation arena know and work very well together. I spent this past weekend manning a booth with members of SFW/SFH and FNAWS at the Rocky Mountain Hunting Show promoting the upcoming combined National Convention on January 17 - 20. We work very well together even though our primary objectives may be slightly different from a species point of view but, we are very united when it comes to the direction of wildlife in this and other states. All of us (MDF, SFWSFH, RMEF, FNAWS...) we all combine monetary funds, with DWR, each year to improve habitat that covers deer, elk, sage grouse, antelope.... What is usually good for one species, benefits many others.

4. As it deals with Ryan Hatch and his relationship with MDF. While I do not know a lot of his past an any issues he has had then. I am aware that in the few times I have met him, he has been very gracious and professional. I am one of those individuals that believes that there are skeletons in everyones closets and that no matter how hard you try, you will never be able to please everyone, everytime. I know for some, this may be very hard and not the answer you want to hear but, let's try to let bygones be bygones and work for the benefit of the all wildlife within the state of Utah and others.

I hope this answers your questions and maybe sheds a bit of light on this subject. If there are any other questions or you feel you want to speak further about this, please contact me at [email protected] and I will do everything possible to answer your questions. Remember though, you may not like my answers to everything but, I will be honest with you.

Please remember that the best way to make changes is to first attend RAC meetings and voice your opinions. Second, and probably more importantly, associate yourself with organizations that you feel relate your feelings and desires. If this is MDF great but, SFWSFH, RMEF, FNAWS, and all the others are also wonderful groups (I belong to many others as well as MDF) with the best of intentions. Don't just say your a member and pay your dues yearly, devote your time especially but, also your money if you feel so inclined, to assisting these organization in improving the habitat and wildife for the benefit of all.

Thank you for your time and interest in wildlife. I wish everyone took as much interest in the state of wildlife as many of you do.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-06 AT 10:56AM (MST)[p]I agree, the MDF, MC and other's need to keep about a dozen arm's lenths between the organizations and the buracracy. Some interaction is importanat, but the MDF LEADERSHIP MUST take a back seat and even sit it out if neccessary so as not to supose wrong doing or even the perception of it. The pred flight program should be third party all the way, no one from the MDF should be anywhere near that project, exept on paper, period. WE cant support the good ole-boys club at this stage of the game.

Public interest jobs come with responsibilites. When you work for the public interest, you have to support the public interest, not just support your personal interest. In fact, in most cases, your personal interests must take the back seat to the primary mission and the constiuency.

Like for example the shed hunting deal that people got fired up about - the one the MDF Director took part in, that kind of activity cant be tollerated from the leadership. People have to do whats right for the Foundation, not their own personal interest. This type issue, which plagues the MDF like no other organization I've been a part of (even the B/C Club manages conflic of interest better than the MDF) is one of the main reasons I choose to not start my own MDF chapter, because a lot of MDF guys are in it for the mount!

"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
The predation project in the Cache unit is being handled by a third party. We are paying for it from funds supplied by many of the conservation organizations.

No one from any of the organizations will be flying or shooting.
 
that would be me. I'm also the one that spent a great deal of my time and energy on the MDF only to learn that it was not up to the conservation standards that I support. Moreover I'm also the one that asked in a letter to the MDF to clean up it's website a bit as it looked more like a trophy hunting tag sales website than a conservation web site. I got a scathing letter back from the Foundation and since then I've not done anything but support other efforts to protect and enhance wildlife projects. I also am the Chair of the Central Montana RAC. . . .

If you want answeres, you can always call me.

Here is the letter Mr. Juel sent in responce to my concerns.


Mr. Bynum,

A response to a letter such as yours requires more than the organization of "very simple thoughts." Considering your qualifications and alleged awareness of "the complicated issues facing mule deer hunting and mule deer habitat," I am sure you understand that it is important to actually research and investigate before making blanket accusations and unfounded claims. Simply put, if you plan to shoot from the hip, you should make sure your weapon is loaded.

The mission of The Mule Deer Foundation is "to ensure the conservation of mule and blacktail deer and their habitats." The MDF membership as of 7-21-05 consists of 9509 members. This includes four thriving chapters in the state of Montana. Our membership is very diverse, consisting of hunters, non-hunters, and avid conservationists. Their hard work and dedication, both physical and financial, is the lifeblood of our organization.

The Board of Directors continuously donate their time and money to this organization and are in no-way compensated for their efforts. As of 2003, the MDF has moved in a new direction. Instead of being passive, we have become an aggressive, pro-active organization. For example, we have dramatically reduced overhead. At this moment, we are without two regional directors and a CEO. We have become much more aggressive in our fundraising efforts and joint conservation movements.

We are currently planning a joint conservation banquet with The Foundation of North American Wild Sheep. That banquet will be held February 1-4, 2006. If successful, we will schedule an even larger joint banquet in 2007, involving even more conservation organizations.

You seem very concerned with our tag sales. You evidently do not understand how the money is handled in these situations.
Example 1: 1 Arizona Mule Deer Tag - sold for a record $134,000.00
Of this money, the MDF keeps NOTHING! The entire amount is sent to the Arizona Department of Fish and Game to be put in a restricted account. The funds are to benefit mule deer and wildlife conservation in the state of Arizona. The MDF will work collaboratively with the state of Arizona to ensure the money is used for conservation projects benefiting mule deer.
Example 2: Utah Tags - MDF will raise over $600,000.00 in 2005.
Of this money, the MDF will retain 10% for administrative costs. The Utah Department of Wildlife will retain 30%. The remaining 60% is held by MDF in a restricted account, earmarked for projects and habitat preservation in the state of Utah.

You seem insulted by the fact that MDF advocates hunting. Be assured, the MDF fully supports the responsible management and hunting of blacktail and mule deer. However, we are not, nor have ever been, in the business of game farming or promoting elitist hunting fraternities. We are in the business of raising money for our mission. We welcome members of all ideas and backgrounds. We are extremely proud of the work we have done, and the work we plan to do.

We welcome constructive, educated ideas and comments. However, unfounded and uneducated remarks will not merit response. If you would like to discuss starting a chapter, please do not hesitate to call. I have an open door policy. However, if you are opposed to our mission of the conservation of blacktail and mule deer, we have nothing further to discuss.

Respectfully,

Pat Juhl
Chairman of the Board - MDF

"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
Since youre intent on working with the members of this MM forum, maybe you can address the following: I posted this many months ago. . .

THE MDF, THE PUBLIC CHARITY THAT KEEPS ON TAKING. . .
Here's another little interesting fact about the MDF. It's NTEE (National Taxonomy of Exempt Entities) has categorized the MDF as a, D34 - Wildlife Sanctuary/Refuge, ?This classification System was developed by The National Center for Charitable Statistics as part of its keyword searching criteria.? Choosing a good, representative NTEE code will help your organization be more easily found by users searching our database."
Let's compare three of the more well known wildlife organizations in north America, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF), the Boone and Crockett Club (B/C), and the Mule Deer Foundation (MDF), just for fun. The RMEF is a C30 -- Natural Resource Conservation and Protection organization and the B/C is a C30?Natural Resource Conservation and Protection, a D30?Wildlife Preservation/Protection organization, and a C60?Environmental Education and Outdoor Survival Programs.
Just so we are clear, the MDF is a D34 Wildlife Sanctuary/Refuge -- and the D series contains the following other classifications:
D30 Wildlife Preservation/ Protection
D31 Protection of Endangered Species
D32 Bird Sanctuary/Preserve
D33 Fisheries
D34 Wildlife Sanctuary/Refuge
Looks to me like when the MDF was classified it may have had very, very different ambitions or someone has made a serious error in filing their paperwork, or someone had miss classified them. It's reveling that an organization that promotes the harvest of trophy mule deer, through the sale of exclusive tags, would have a same classification as that of a Wildlife Sanctuary/Refuge - very interesting. I suggest the MDF make an adjustment when it files it's next federal tax papers.
Let's dig a little deeper. I'll call this the tag that keeps on taking ? here we go.
The MDF is a charitable organization and under the current federal tax structure, and that makes your contributions tax deductible. The purchase of the tag is a ?contribution.? Therefore, it is tax deductible.
Now, Mr. Abbot has said before that the people who buy the tags don't need, or take the tax deduction, i.e., deduct the cost of the tag from their income. If this is true, why is the MDF not a 501 (c) (7) instead? The (c) 7 (Social and Recreational Clubs) gets to be a non-profit, completely subsidized by the citizens, but the ?contributions? a.k.a, tags inn this case, are not tax deductible. I find it extremely offensive that a person who buys a tag, and gets to avoid the application process that most other people must follow, also gets to deduct the cost of the tag from their income.
I personally find incredible, that most hunters have to wait to hunt in Utah, but then, to top it off, they also get to pay for the exclusive hunting trip. In essence, the pubic is footing the bill so that some person can go directly to the MDF, buy the tag, and go hunting while we pay for it.
In fairness, Mr. Abbott was not around when the organization was established, so I don't blame him for the tax classification, but if the MDF really is in this for the average hunter, you have to ask what has the MDF done to modify its status in order to eliminate these very offensive provisions?

If you would like to see this for yourself, you can. Just go to: http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsReport.do?finId=101417877&npoId=410057, and read down the page, at the bottom you will see acrobat files to 7 years of tax information. I am not implying that the MDF has deliberately tried to hide behind this status, or that it's even being deliberately fraudulent, but it does cause me to question their true motives.
Some may say so what, it's a mistake in the classification, but this is just the type of fleecing of America can we no longer accept. It also tells me that they run a loose ship! I think our mule deer deserve better, don't you?




"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
> C.
>There is no other relationship
>either financially or jointly between
>MDF and/or Muley Crazey other
>than printing of the MDF
>magazine.


Mr. Tuttle,
Thanks for your reply, I appreciate you responding as you said you would. I would however like to point out that item C is not correct. Back to the original subject of this post, MDF is giving MC, apparently at their discretion, the ability to take submissions and publish them in their magazine, therefore making money off of somthing intended for MDF.

Smart business by Muley Crazy, questionable behavior by MDF.
 
I apologize for not addressing it. The response is that it was stated so there would be no questions that submissions could be used in both magazines and that you could put it into both magazines by just submitting it to one.

Most individuals that submit articles want to have them placed into both because of exposure. I did an informal survey this past weekend at the Rocky Mountain Hunting Show and out of 55 people (sorry for it being a small sample size, I was busy informing everyone about the National Convention in January) only 2 would want to have their articles in only the MDF magazine and not Muley Crazy.

Here is what you can do, if you only want to have your submission placed into the MDF magazine and not Muley Crazy, state so on your submission and your article will be handled in that format. No questions asked.

When I stated that MDF there was no other relationship between MDF and MUley Crazy other than the magazine publishing, I meant that there was no trading hands with money or tags or anything else. Ryan Hatch is a member of MDF but, I believe he is a member of other organizations as well and supports them as he is able to.
 
Good information. It is something that I will have to check into. I do not have an answer off the top of my head and I do not like to answer questions in that format anyhow. I like facts.

What is your name? I feel like I am talking to a blank screen (informal) and wish to address you. I have already stated that I am Daren Tuttle and I am the Utah State chair of the MDF.

Thank you for the information.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-06 AT 01:10PM (MST)[p]

hey tuttut, check out post 46. What's wrong with this forum for answering questions. are you saying my "facts" are wrong. You guys are just fantastic. . . I'm not gowing down the old road of, "you have to be x, y, or z to get answers". You ask if I was tony bynum, I said yes. How do you know it's me anyhow, how do you really know who your talking to on this or any site? I dont really care who you are, if you come on here as a MDF rep, that's good enought for me. . What more to you want, from me, my SS#, DOB, what?


I also am quite sure that MC does more than the printing. If that's all they do, you dont need MC for that, and, you could get it done someplace eles. I'm sure MC also does the design, graphics, layout, and mockup. I doubt even that MC prints the magazine at all, they likely have it contracted, unless they own their own press. . .

You said you address facts, how about addressing, and making clear what youre talking about when it comes to MDF and MC?



"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
Tony,

I wasn't getting personal with you. There have been so many posts on this subject that I thought your user name was Peashooter and not TFinalshot. There was no malice in it, just a mistake.

In addition, I was not indicating that you did not have the facts right, only that I did not want to respond back to you until I had the facts correct to answer your question.

With all due respect, I have been very accomadating to you and your questions. I have spent my time looking them up and asking questions to make sure what was fact and what was opinion. I do not understand why you feel the need to attack me or the organization because you do not like the answers.

I love the Mule Deer Foundation and feel that it accomplishes the goals and objectives that most closely relate to my ideas. Sure, there are individuals and aspects that I may not agree with on all areas but, overall they do a great job. I have spent over 1000 hours this year already of my own vacation and time to travel the state and promote and handle issues related to the Mule Deer Foundation and I wouldn't do it unless I believed in it's mission.

I know that I am not the only one. I spoke with an individual with SFW this weekend that said the same thing about his organization. He may not agree with everything that Don Peay does but, Don has done alot of good for this state and the Big Game habitat in general. And I agree with him without having to be a high up person within SFW. It is called common courteousy and respect, something I feel that you have not shown me as I have tried to show it to you, while answering your questions.

I am sorry that you do not agree with the stance that MDF has taken or the things that have happened in the past. I cannot change them. I can only go forward and try to make the Mule Deer Foundation the best organization to improve the habitat for Mule Deer and Blacktail deer in the United States.

Respectfully yours

Daren
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-06 AT 03:29PM (MST)[p]I had posted again concerning the issue above, but I realize that these websites do nothing to change opinions. If MDF has a person publishing their magazine who is currently on probation for crimes committed against the very specie the MDF was created to protect then that says enough for me. MDF is just a business anyway and they don't need my $50 a year.
 
oh, I'm sorry. next time i'll say thanks and howya doing and welcome to the site, and thanks for all your hard work, and then hammer on the MDF....

That's a classic reply, tell me I need to be more respectful and then never address the issues, why waste the time with any kind of reply? I had hopes for you. However, you, like the other's before you from the MDF come on here and tell us how it is, and as soon as someone asks a few real hard questions or brings up some very compelling points, you guys head straight for the brush get defensive, never address the issues, and tell me and others that we are rude and dissrepspecful. I dont remember anything telling me to salute before entering. You guys think youre all so darn right, but there a lot of people out there that dissagree with the tacktics of the MDF and others, maybe we never will se eye to eye, but that does not mean I cant take issue with the fact that MY taxes are going to support an elitist conservation desguised hunting organization, not matter how may 1000's of man hours you put in, it's still is what it is.

Ive been accused of being a little harsh before, I like to think that most men dont need to beat around the bushes with a bunch of hi how-are-yas, hello's and how ya doings, thanks for you service on and on, etc. - plus, this is the internet so it's hard to know what the other guys motives are.

I guess I was correct; we never are going to get anyone to address the issues. You, like so many others just spin things away from the issues and make them personal. My remarks were directed at you, in repsonce to your asking me, so, in fairness, not in dissrespect.

I'm sorry if I came across poorly or with anger, or not to your satisfaction especially when you made the post that questioned my facts - that was your error, not mine. Next time you reply maybe YOU should be more clear, and more kind.

So, either you're going to deal with the issues, or, like all the other MDF guys before you, your going run off and hide and say, "if they only understood, or if they would just see it my way, or if they only would listen, or if they only would call . . ." Which is it going to be? You staying around to make things right and deal with the issues, or are you going away where it's safe?
 
How about an answer to the question about MDF's view on the utilization of aircraft(mainly the chute plane) to pursue and scout? Also, numerous guides all networking with each other, under the table money, game cameras on every water hole,radios, gps,etc. etc. Taking the creme of the crop every year. Basically stealing from whats suppose to be a public resource. Any answers to any of these concerns?
 
My answer to all the questions is:

MDF is dedicated to the following goals:
? To restore, improve and protect mule deer habitat (including land and easement acquisitions) resulting in self-sustaining, healthy, free ranging and huntable deer populations;
? To encourage and support responsible wildlife management with government agencies, private organizations and landowners;
? To promote public education and scientific research related to mule deer and wildlife management;
? To support and encourage responsible and ethical behavior and awareness of issues among those whose actions affect mule deer;
? Acknowledge regulated hunting as a viable component of mule and blacktail deer conservation.

Anything up and beyond this is not a part of the MDF organization and goals. We do not believe in anything that is against the laws of the individual states and federal government as it pertains to wildlife and their habitat.

Are we a perfect organization? No. But we strive to better the areas and people around us by doing the best with can with the resources and information at hand. Are we perfect at this? No. But I have never see a group of people work harder to improve something for the benefit of others.

Questions that have been placed before me in the last few days:

1. Does the MDF believe in using chute planes for scouting and taking animals?

We DO NOT believe in using planes or other aircraft to purse or take mule deer, only predators in remote areas. The MDF does not participate in this as individuals, only by pooling our money with other conservation organizations and the DWR.

2. Why is the MDF set up as a different type of conservation, non-profit organization as other similar organizations?

I do not know and has nothing to do with how I do my volunteer job as the Utah State chair of the Mule Deer Foundation. That is a question that has been relayed further up the chain and will be address at that level when it is appropriate. Do I care as a taxpayer how it was set up? No, because I see the good that is coming from the work of the many volunteers. I see that we will put over $400,000 on the ground here in the state of Utah this year because of the people of this state. What a wonderful accomplishment! I can honestly say that I am doing everything I can to improve the Mule Deer habitat and populations in this state and so are many others.

3. Also, numerous guides all networking with each other, under the table money, game cameras on every water hole,radios, gps,etc. etc. Taking the creme of the crop every year. Basically stealing from whats suppose to be a public resource.

I see nothing illegal in the statement above. Everyone has the same opportunity to scout, network with others, pay to get onto someone elses property, use GPS coordinates, use radios and cameras to locate animals. Just because the outfitters in this and all other states do it for a living does not make it bad or illegal. Anyone who is willing to put in the time and effort to locate animals should be able to do it in whatever manner possible that is legally and ethically acceptable. If you feel that an outfitter is doing something other than that, then by all means, please reprot them to the DWR and lets put a stop to it.

I believe that is all the questions I have seen and I would ask that in the future if you have a question, but are from a state other than Utah, please go to www.muledeer.org and look up your state chair and make inquires from that individual. I do not know all the legal opinions for states other than Utah and probably not all of them in this state as well. I have only been the state chair for a few months and I am still learning.



Quote -

"And when at some future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each of us, recording whether in our brief span of service we fulfilled our responsibilities to the state, our success or failure, in whatever office we hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions: First, were we truly men of courage...Second, were we truly men of judgment...Third, were we truly men of integrity...Finally, were we truly men of dedication."


John F. Kennedy
 
Founder, can we assign a forum other than this one, to address the complaints about wildlife organizations. Its annoying to have to sift through them here.
Tutt, your efforts are appreciated, but sadly in the end you will realize that its not about answering a question, if it were they would call directly as Drum suggested & get an answer, doing this however would deny them the opportunity to type indictments & or accusations here.
 
B_F_E,
The easy way to not be annoyed is to not click your mouse on the thread. Not too tough is it?

Also, you are wrong about it not being about an answer to a question. I have been very appreciative of Mr. Tuttles' exchange on this, and think that it is appropriate to have these kind of discussions on a public forum vs a private phone call. I think that many people on this site are members of these organizations, and should care about what they are doing, and welcome debate questioning their practices rather than just following like sheep.

If you prefer to just follow in the flock, dont click.
 
Mr. Tuttle,
I very much appreciate your response. If MDF's position to the use of chute planes is what you say it is, then why hasn't there been something done about the problem? They're still being used unethically because the laws are not worded correctly to stop it, and there is always some loophole to get away with it. My understanding is that you can fly up to 48 hours before your own particular hunting season opens. Should read something more like no use at anytime of the year to locate, pursue, or harass protected wildlife period! in my opinion.
Thanks
30
 
I would just like to say that I really appreciate Mr. Tuttle getting on here to answer questions. I know you're a volunteer and probably don't have a lot of time to do this, but it is appreciated by myself and many others.

I think there are some issues that people should call and get answers to, but others that many of us would like to hear responses to. It's great that you share it here.

As far as chute planes, I don't know that MDF should be trying to police that. HOWEVER, with Tony Abbott now in charge and actively working closely with elected officials, maybe how MDF works is changing. ?????

I think that if MOST sportsmen think that the use of chute planes is unethical, or if "Finders Fees" are unethical, or anything else, we need to push our state legislature to change laws. Sportsmen do need to police ourselves in a way.

Don Peay and Tony Abbott have a lot of pull with legislatures in the state of Utah. If enough sportsmen voice their concerns about these issues, I think changes can be made.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 

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