Selfish Hunters

[bsneekee]

I have noticed some complaints from a minority of the members here that most hunters are just sneaky, selfish, and unconcerned with promoting our sport. Yes, I understand that hunter numbers in the US are allegedly down. I don't want to sound too naive bc i know that decreased hunter numbers can mean there may not be enough of a voice to promote wildlife conservation and the pursuit of these majestic animals. However, I personally see no shortage of hunters in the field. In my eyes the sport still seems to be doing fine. Second of all, some of you have stated that hunters do a diservice to the sport by hording honey holes, and quality places to hunt. You feel that guys who get angry about people specifically telling others where to hunt are just selfish jerks. After all you feel that promotion of the sport and getting others involved is what its all about. And I'm all for that. However, with more of the west filling up with people, there are more people hunting. Maybe not per capita, like in the older days, but there are still more. This means more pessure on the animals. This pressure eventually leads wildlife agencies to restrict tags decreasing hunter opportunity. I don't know about you but in 15 years i don't want the entire west to be a draw where one may go years without drawing a deer tag for their home state. Moreover, I don't want to head into the fields and see tons of people hunting. I don't feel seeing crowds as "O wow isn't this great, what awesome enthusiasm for hunting, what great promotion for our sport. I'm glad everyone is out here. I feel this way because not everyone in the field are true hunters. There are many guys and new people being introduced to our sport that feel "o man i really like to hunt but we need better access." "They should really consider putting in more four wheeler trails so that we can ruin previously prestine hunting areas." "I really don't want to put any effort into killing my deer." "I just hunt for fun and humping it up a ridge doesnt sound very fun." "I'd rather just have them put in more atv access so that i can have my deer handed to me." My point is that many of these new hunters that are supposed to be "promoting our sport" will not respect the sport and its heritage. A more modernized/evolutionized/lazy hunter will emerge. Their guns will be laced with ultra high powered scopes and their atvs will have heated seats and satelite radio.
Furthermore, for these reasons I am "extremely selfish" and do not share good hunting areas. I want to preserve the quality hunting experience and not see lots of other guys afield, even if they are respectful hunters. I do not post pictures for I fear guys will recognize me or my family and having seen us, or our rigs, in the field and know where we hunt and then blab to their friends, hey look at this buck, it was shot just up no tellum creek etc.(Sidenote: someone recognized our truck this year at the butcher and knew where exactly where we hunted, too bad had a real nice buck in the back.) And yes i am somewhat paranoid so please feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt.
There are too many yahoos in the field to justify telling anyone of your hunting spots. Just this deer season we had guys kicking all the deer out of the canyon by marching up the trail on a beautifully moonlit night with headlamps blazing, talking as if they were giving a speech. Then there was the crazy kid who was running and blasting trying to fill his doe tag with total disregard of the other hunters who had to take cover to avoid his lead, while his redneck dad watched proudly on.
So my question is is it really bad for the sport to keep things quite, and be secretive, and selfish? More importantly, does the sport need a hunter behind every tree? Do we need to be more open about quality spots? Do we need to increase the pressure on the animals by telling others where they are? I think not! You may view my opinion as way far right, but if everyone is "unselfish" and says where they hunt the animals will suffer, the habitat will suffer, and the quality experience of a hunt with limited pressure will disappear.

 

[canhunter]

Love your recognized PU story. Had a guy chat me up because he heard I killed a big buck the year before. I guess someone described my PU to him at the game check. I actually now tarp my deer, and the game guys will respect my request to keep it covered and not blab about it. I hook them up with all the info I can in trade on who what and where. Freaking crazy how people talk sometimes.

 

[deerhuntr4885]

I do agree with most of what you said. We do need a large population of hunters (voters) to keep our hunting rights alive. But I also agree that I hate seeing so damn many people out when I am hunting. It is definatley a double edged sword. I am a guy who puts in for alot of states for deer tags. I harvested two deer this year, but I have often wondered if it would not be better to allow hunters to put in for several states but only be allowed to harvest one buck per year, regardless of the state. I know it would take a major restructuring of our game management system and regulations but in the long run it may be a little better for us all. There are alot of very good hunters who do alot of traveling and kill several quality bucks in a years time. Maybe if they had a system in place there would be a few less hunters in "your" spot and a few more quality deer around.

As far as passing on info to other hunters: I have received valuable information and passed on info on this site and am very greatful for it! It brings me some pleasure to know that I was able to help someone make a lasting memory. Of course I would never give out my personel hunting area or drainages. You have to weigh it out before opening your mouth.

Mike Henne

 

[BeanMan]

I generally hunt the steep and deep. I have not even seen a hunter within 2 miles of me the last two years. O course I did get lucky this year as my cow elk happened to be standing very near my vehicle as I was coming out of the woods at last light.
Some locals know where I have been hunting but the usually won't walk that extra mile up through the brush.

Beanman

 

[supersider34]

If people are worried about people recognizing vehicle's and such sounds to me alot of people only have one area to hunt. Back up plans and a back up plan for the back up plan and then another back up plan for that back up plan. List goes on.
Who cares if someone recognizes you or a vehicle. Alot of guys know mine and alot of guys think they know where I have harvested animals but take someone out and throw some hints and they think they know where you hunt. Most guys think they know but there is only 1 guy that knows exactly and that is my brother and my son has been there and seen the bucks. I drive alot and have my vehicle seen all over the unit I hunt. This will bring people to believe you hunt elsewhere.
I have helped several people hunt this year and it was awesome. Seeing the excitement in there eyes was awesome.
Helping people makes what hunting is. Some will take advice and some wont. I am by far a expert but know THE AREA"S I hunt. Not just one area. People ask me all the time for advice and I give it freely but if they do not except it then there loss. Hunting pressure is up and every year I get more calls asking where animals are. I tell them where to find some but not all.
Let be real here. Selfish hunters there are alot. If someone spends multiple days in the field and harvest animals every year does not make them a better hunter. If all hunters could spend as much time as others in the field as all then there would not be that many mature bucks or bulls out there. Because you learn the more you are out there. Give advice and you will get some in return.
Good luck next hunting season.

 

[a3dhunter]

I believe in hunters helping hunters. That doesn't mean giving up your secret spot or honey hole. It means giving guys a description of what to expect in a unit or area and what things to look for as far as elevation wise. This can really help someone decide on applying for a unit or if they draw, where to start scouting for their hunt. Most people can give information like: the north end of the unit, or around 7,500 ft, etc... and not give away where they hunt. I have given information on units in Colorado that I have been to, in some cases to just prevent a guy from being disappointed with the area. I have asked for info. on areas on this site and have come up empty before, I asked about Region D in Wyoming--no info. Am I supposed to believe that out of 10,000 members none of them have any info on Region D? Yeah right! I have never stepped foot in this area so someone who has could give me an idea of where to head since it is a huge area but nobody has--okay, no big deal, I will still hunt it!
If you can help someone enjoy the outdoors then why not do it?

If you don't help others, then I would bet you would also turn a guy away from your campfire and not offer him any coffee either! The mountains don't belong to one of us, they belong to all of us!

 

[TripleK]

My
>point is that many of
>these new hunters that are
>supposed to be "promoting our
>sport" will not respect the
>sport and its heritage. A
>more modernized/evolutionized/lazy hunter will emerge.
>Their guns will be laced
>with ultra high powered scopes
>and their atvs will have
>heated seats and satelite radio.
>
You think these kind of hunters are "NEW" hunters? They're not. Science ruins the game, man. Some of those in their heated Rhinos are old-school boys who are just upgrading to modern technology. I know it sucks, but it's really nothing new. I've seen plenty of people in all my years of hunting using methods many would deem 'lazy'. The motorcycle gang that used to plague the area we hunted was just as bad as any heated ATV or high powered scope people use nowadays. They would run deer down and could pretty much go anywhere on those dirtbikes they hunted on. The lazy hunter has always been around.

>
> So
>my question is is it
>really bad for the sport
>to keep things quite, and
>be secretive, and selfish? More
>importantly, does the sport need
>a hunter behind every tree?
>Do we need to be
>more open about quality spots?
>Do we need to increase
>the pressure on the animals
>by telling others where they
>are? I think not! You
>may view my opinion as
>way far right, but if
>everyone is "unselfish" and says
>where they hunt the animals
>will suffer, the habitat will
>suffer, and the quality experience
>of a hunt with limited
>pressure will disappear.

You really think your hunting spot is THAT secret? There are people everywhere. You wanna go where there are fewer people...be like BeanMan and hunt the steep and deep and do not hunt General Season Rifle in Utah. lol

 

[tageater]

when i moved to a new city, i had to find a new place to hunt. I asked around and most of the locals i talked to gave me general info about the mountains in the area. I did some scouting and with that info i decided on an area that no one had even mentioned. This area has a few deer, but the bucks in the area(that i have run into) average 130'ish. I always see a couple that will go in the +180's.Just a good place to hunt, Not a great place.I have yet to tag one but the pictures of them on the hoof are proof they are there. Today if any one asks me where i hunt, I have no problem telling them. I find out when they plan to hunt the area, if they plan to hunt it at all.I will plan my hunts around them, or join them. Since it is a walk in hunt,( NO atv's)not too many guys, even the ones that say they dont mind too much of a hike go into where i am,(whether it because of the hike or that they already have good areas that they know) and no locals hunt it.
Sharing information, its just a friendly thing. And good luck to the guy that wants to follow me up the hill. more power to the man, that goes up there and kills a big ole buck.

 

[old_man_of_the_hills]

I don't offer any specific info to anybody because I have worked my azz off to find my places. I expect others to do the same if they want a big muley, because nobody deserves to luck into one of these animals by my hard work. On the other hand, I'll offer all of the general info you want because it's a long road between general info and secret spots...

 

[cabinfever]

I would not have taken some of my better bucks if it weren't for good friends and fellow hunnters who were willing to share info. I have no problems sharing basic info and tatics, but when it comes down to sharing a honey hole, it aint going to happen. There is just to much work that goes into finding a good place to hunt, and almost as much work keeping it a secret.
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day;teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

 

[deerbedead]

Show a man a mountain, he hunts it for a day,
Show a man your honeyhole, you'll see him and his buddies there for a lifetime!

 

[Longun]

HOO HOO Deerbed-you hit the nail on the head.ButI do take friends to my honey holes cause they are friends and would never take anybody else without me there too.

 

[CAnAZbwhnter]

Ive got to agree that I think there is nothing wrong with trying to keep a great spot a secret. Honey-Holes take time, patience, and so much damn effort and time to find so why would any hunter want to give up all this hard-earned info?
Personally, I would and do share my hot spots with family and when I say family this also includes a couple of my closest friends. But other than that, I am not about to guide other hunters to hot spots because now this area is not special thanks to added pressure.
This year, very recently infact I have discovered my own little hunting area. I decided back in September this would be my area, mostly due to the fact that it is only an hour's trip from home and the area as a whole is not looked at as a great area to hunt. When driving by it really does not look like much at all. At a quick glance it appears dry and low in density of vegetation. But one day I figured what the heck and decided to spend the day glassing and hiking around. I glassed up one deer and that was it. But my mind was already made up. I wanted to find a new area to hunt where I knew I did not have to contend with other hunters and I knew if this area held even one deer, then it was likely to hold many more.... I just had to take the time to pin-point within the area where the deer were. There is a main dirt road that goes along the edge of this area. Vehicles drive by all day long and never have I seen a hunter stop to get out or even glass it. It blows me away.
I took my father in law here a couple weeks back for some scouting. As we pull up he says there arent any deer in here are there? Just wait I said, you will be surprised. 15 minutes in to our hike and there they were. 6 deer feeding in the bottom of the canyon. Then last Friday on opening day I headed out on foot for the day to do some hard-core scouting of the area. After many hours spent behind glass I located 20+ deer. Man was I stoaked. I thought "this really is the spot" and no one even realizes that deer are in here. The deer consisted of does and 2 small bucks. I figured its only a matter of time before I locate some shooters.
It Gets Better!
Yesterday morning, yes yesterday I was able to make it back out and took my brother in law along. 30 minutes in to our hike we jump up 2 deer. After further investigation they end up being 2 awesome looking deer. One 4x4 and a smaller 3x3. The small guy was even impressive as his antlers stuck out a couple inches past his ears on each side. Im shaking my head right now even as I tell this story, in awe that I have found a wonderful area to hunt. And finding it has not been easy. You can bet I will be keeping the location within my family and myself! GOOD HUNTING

 

[Elkcrzy1]

You can keep your spots secret as I do myself but the problem we have in todays age is that a person can find out the area you hunt or apply for, at least in colorado. Gary

 

[canhunter]

I have hunted two of the states and I did it the old fashion way. I called the wild life office, talked to biologists, and drove down numerous times. It took several years, but have found some great spots. Everyone seems to want the others hard work and time. I fully expect to spend 2-3 years hunting a new Prov./state to find a decent area.
Here is what happens more then not when people find out about a good area. We had one guy actually rent horses, ride in on the trail ahead of us, then follow us to our elk area. It was dark and he was waiting about 1 mile in then fell in line and was telling us how he knew we killed elk every year because he always saw us at the trail head with elk. No one said anything to him, and he actually had the guts to say he wanted to follow us in "because you know where the elk are". He was a foot hunter I guess previous years. We stopped to tie up and told him in the dark we had that particular canyon pretty well covered as he tried to tie up next to us. We told him to find his own area and he rode back down the trail. It was dark and we did not see he just stopped within 100m/yds and waited. He actually shot a bull that was rock throwing distance from one of our buddies and our hunter was plainly visible. Some may agree and some may not but we told him that would be the last elk he killed around us, and we would make it a point even at the cost of our own hunt to ensure no elk were around him. If he had just rode up sat down and shot the bull nothing would have been said at all other then to be more careful if even that. It was just the way he went about it and endangered someone else over his desire to kill an elk. He must have known he was totally out of line and we never saw him, his PU or his rented horse again.

 

[bsneekee]

Good comments. Glad ive never had someone dog me to my spot before (canhunter) No my spot is not some secret. I just dont want to contribute to putting any more guys near the area where i hunt besides family. Ya i understand giving some info on your area or areas probably isnt going to be a big deal, just don't want to bring any more guys into the general area where I hunt. However, don't have any qualms with giving out some info on special units. I am looking into some new areas to hunt with my buddies since I can finally hunt by myself (only 17).

 

[Pre64]

I used to share. I don't anymore. Finding good spots takes money, time, and hard work. Once you get burned, you stop sharing.

 

[peanut]

If it means that I am selfish, so be it! I am not going to advertise my honey hole to anyone else. Like was said earlier in the thread, these things take time to figure out. I tell people that are thinking of moving to a new area to plan on five continuous seasons of hunting an area to learn the terrain, how animals tend to move, where they like to hang out and where they really don't. I'm not really worried about people moving into my area because like BeanMan said, it is steep and deep. I know that the same guys have watched from the road as I have packed out bulls, but they are unwilling to climb the hill to get there. I see lots of activity on the roads, but very few guys will even step foot out of their truck or off their ATV.

 

[deerfanatic]

Bsneekee,

Thank you for raising these questions. They are tough ones to answer. I've asked myself the same questions before. The hard part is trying to decipher at what point do these thoughts and ideas become hypocritical. I struggle with ATV?s, but at the same time I drive a truck to get to my hunting location. I know damn well that if the weather turns and the roads get bad, I would do a lot less damage with the ATV (a 500 # ATV does a lot less damage than a 6000 # truck). On the other hand, there is too much ATV abuse because they can go anywhere; what would I do if I owned one? I'd like to think I would ride only on the designated trails. I can say, that lately, I've been noticing people utilize ATV?s more like their trucks, so maybe more ATV riders realize that the privilege well be lost if they don't start riding responsibly.

For a long time I was against opening up special areas for ATV?s. But if you think about it, there are trails that are closed to motorized vehicles for the hunter that hikes in. Many of those trails go back way further than most of us can get to on foot, and are basically set aside for those with horses. If the ATV user had places to access with his ATV, maybe they would not interfere as much with those that hate ATVs so much. Maybe this means converting some two track roads to ATV roads, I don't know.

As for your question about posting to everyone about special areas, I'm not sure you well ever be able to lock up your spots forever. In this country we have freedom of speech, so if your honey hole gets posted, its time to find a new one. Now, I do think a little hunter etiquette (what's that anymore) is how you address that. This means if someone beats you to your spot, you need to give them room to hunt. If you beat them, they need to give you room. But it has to work both ways.

 

[bsneekee]

deerfanatic

You brought up a good point about being hypocritical with atvs. First of all there is nothing wrong with them as long as they are used properly. Unfortuneately, there is too much temptation for atvs to ever be a positive for hunter access retrieval of game etc. Lets say you hike into an area and down a buck 300 yards from an atv trail. Only problem is the trail is closed because the area you are hunting is critical big game wintering habitat. You know that you can sneak your atv around the gate and retreive your deer in a matter of 20 minutes, or you can strap your deer to your back and make the long 3 mile hike up the closed trail anyways. What do you do? Clearly it is unlawful to use your atv in this situation. However, if i saw a guy riding in to get his deer i don't think i could give him any beef for doing so. More commonly atvs are driven off tracks over habitat to retrieve game. In my book this is a considerably worse violation than the one previously mentioned. However, sometimes the boundaries are not as clear. For instance, an elk is shot at the bottom of a canyon. There is a recently created "trail" that two atvs had previously formed only 400 yards from the elk. The nearest legal access tract is 2 miles away. By no means is this closer trail established or legal, the tract was just created by 2 guys out joyriding who wanted to ride some new territory. So here's the question,Do you make several trips packing the elk over hellish country on your back or do you take the easy way out and use this illegal tract. Though, I am against atvs for these reasons, honesly im going to drive illegally and get to within 400 yards of my elk. Im sorry. I wish i could say otherwise and I'm sure some of you on here wouldn't make this move if you had atvs. Here is my point atvs are just tempting too ride illegally. Moreover, the problem lies not with blazing your own trail once in awhile, it is the numerous guys who will follow in your footsteps. One guy motoring over habitat isn't going to cause much damage. The forest will quickly regenerate from this light abuse. However, take into account the half dozen other guys who used this newly created trail during the season and your looking at some serious damage that's going to take a long time to heal. Even if a guy only goes 20 yards off trail there is going to be the next guy who goes 40 on the same tract and the next who goes 70 etc. Even tho many and i would like to say the majority obeys all laws, theres always going to be some that don't and the sad fact is that with motorized vehicles it only takes a very small minority to destroy a lot of great habitat. And this minority is often not the scubbags that we so commonly refer to, they are good hunters and often even conservationits who were forced to make a judgement call between what is right and what is extremely justifiable. Not too many sportsmen are going to beat themselves up over taking an illegal and not established trail (that had been created by two guys out joyriding) to retrieve an elk that would normally take 2 grueling days to pack out. Atvs are serious threat to quality hunting and habitat because they are simply to tempting and justifiable to us sportsmen.
Finally, deerfantic, the one area i don't agree with you on is opening up more atv trails so that their will be less conflict. There are already plenty of atv trails. Opening up more will only increase conflict because nobody wants to see a nonmotorized trail open up for motorized use because usually that is a big reason why they hunt there, opening up more motorized trails will prove to be exclusive catering to those with motorcyles and atvs and will tick alot of people off.
I wil leave you with these thoughts. The Idaho fish and game has conducted tests showing that slow moving vehicles on dirt roads are more disturbing to big game than fast moving vehicles on highways. Moreover, they have observed that big game use of an area decreases as roads and motorized vehicle trails increase. Furthermore I must attest that in the special unit (both for elk and deer) that I hunted this fall I saw zero bucks from walking a n atv trail, though i did see does. And while hunting a general season unit that gets pounded I saw several decent bucks from a non motorized vehicle trail. Sometimes I dont understand the concept of getting access with an atv, because to have any consistency without unlimited hours of hunting time one must park their atv and then walk into their area. However, if there was no atv trail into their area couldn't they be albe to walk right from their truck using the same amount of energy and be in just as good of hunting? Maybe so, maybe not. For i realize that often times walking straight from your truck means walking up in elevation for a few miles to get to where the big game are when a trail could give you a much easier way to get right on them off the bat without having to hastle with the stuff that doesnt hold much big game anyways. Anyhow, just my two cents, I'm now officially exhausted with the topic of atvs, I'm out!

 

[HerbD]

Good posts bsneekee and others. My sentiments exactly on the temptations of owning an atv. That's why I don't have one now and hopefully will never feel a need for one.

 

[Legolas]

>Atvs are
>serious threat to quality hunting
>and habitat because they are
>simply to tempting and justifiable
>to us sportsmen.

Speak for yourself. I don't find it difficult at all to obey the law. If a man doesn't have at least that much self control, then what's going to stop him from breaking other laws? Granted, there are too many "sportsmen" who lack any ethics at all, but they aren't hunters. Hunters hold themselves to a higher standard. That standard is respect - respect for wildlife, respect for the land and respect for ourselves.

A proposal is being made to the Utah legislature this year to revoke the hunting permit of anyone caught misusing an ATV during a hunt. Makes perfect sense to me since such people have no business hunting anyway. Support it.

Meantime, the self-entitled attitude that breaking the law is acceptable is the epitome of selfishness. It's the attitude that is the problem, not the equipment that gets misused by those who have the attitude.

 

[canhunter]

Totally correct and well stated. There was a post with video here where a young hunter with his dad was not wearing his orange while shooting a deer. They guy actually had the guts to show it with some really terrible shooting on another deer. Pretty much was was the epitome of what and why many gripe about poor hunters. Needless to say he had every excuse as to why it was ok. I would like to see the Montana game department get his info and charge them. That type of attitude and lack of acceptance of wrong doing needs to be corrected. Heck at least show some shame and hide it.

 

[bigamehntr]

Im a selfish hunter, keep your honeyholes quite so you and your family have a place to hunt, its getting harder to find those spots.I draw a tag every 6 years and the increase in hunters are getting more every year, and more and more local sub guides are becoming master guides and starting there own businesses and are bringing more hunters in these areas. I read the forum everyday, i enjoy the comments, but i dont show pictures and very seldom comment.