Too many deer in Utah!

J

JordanH

Guest
There are way to many deer in Utah! Last year on the general muzzleloader hunt I passed on 21 different bucks opening day. If you guys think that Utah?s deer herd is struggling your idiots, there are tons of deer. I killed a nice buck on just the third day. I think that we should implement SSS on all deer so that we can get the population under control.

Look, the reality is that I really did pass on 21 bucks last year on opening day. Is Utah?s deer herd in the dumps? of course it is, I would never argue that. My point is that if we based management off of my one experience then we could say there must be plenty of deer because someone saw them.

Its almost comical reading on here how many of you would use almost the same scenario to tell everyone there are way to many Mt. Lions in Utah. ?I saw one while glassing this year? ?my buddies dad?s friend had one stalk him while archery hunting? ?I saw 3 separate dead deer, all lion kills?, ?Here is my trail cam pics, I have the same lion coming in to water over and over? or the classic ?lions kill a deer a week, Don Peay told me so?. Rather than taking the time to educate ourselves and look at the real science/ harvest data, we rely on individual compartmentalized experiences to come up with what we deem as ?Science/ biology?.

Here are some of the real numbers for you! 1995 was the year that Utah officially declared war on Mt. Lions and we harvested 431, In 96 we harvested 452, in 97 we harvested 576, jumping to the last 5 years we have averaged just over 300 with more tags being sold than ever before. The amazing part is that the majority of the Harvest Objective Units never met their quota this year or the year before and the year before that, how can that be? With epic snow fall the last years, and the fact that most anyone with a hound can catch a lion on fresh snow there shouldn't be much guess work on why we cant fill those quotas. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that the lions aren't there to kill.

We can continue to beat the drum of lions, lions, lions are the issue with our Utah deer herd. In another 10 years we can wonder what happened to the deer or we can maybe even jump on the new band wagon that it must be the ?bears?. The reality is poor management for the last decade/decades in general is the issue with our deer. Lions aren't the issue, bears aren't the issue, it's poor management of the resource that has got us into the situation that we are in. We've killed more lions is the last 15 years than ever before and our deer herd has continued to shrink.

If we want to practice the 3 S?s it should start with those that have managed our herds, the ?not for profit? organization that lobby and hold hostage our game managers, motorists, developers, bad winters, maybe even coyotes but real studies show that Lions don't have a measurable impact on deer herds.

I'm sure the majority here will have their argument of what they saw or heard maybe criticize me for a "stupid" first post, or correct some misspelled word or poorly punctuated sentence. The reality is what it is and its time we do something.
 
It's definately not like it used to be. I'm in the dedicated hunter program and hunt in N. Utah. I have killed my biggest deer in N. Utah. I passed up 17 bucks during the rifle hunt this year and just as many on the muzzy. I was trying to shoot a 170 + buck this year and had a chance on the third day but couldn't seal the deal on him. A few years back in N. Utah I passed up over 20 bucks befors shooting a 175 buck on the last day. I have never had a problem finding deer in N. Utah. Last year I switched it up and did SE Utah and passed on numerous bucks between the muzzy and rifle season. I have yet to see a lion kill this year and I have put on a lot of miles.
 
Jordanh, of course you can't generalize for the whole state for anything, but my question to you is how trophy buck live to be big buck. They get smart, right!!

How do the majority of hounders operate? They cut a track from a vehicle, Right? And then they more times than not, release the lion. If you were a wise o' lion, what would you do?
Stay away from the roads, right? Remember, just because we don't see them doesn't mean they are not there. They do learn and if chased constantly - learn well.

I know of one person who did a study on lions. Who is he? A hounder who helps the division. Is that bad? Not necessarily, but sometimes that may skew there report.

We need hounders to help with lion control and I would hope they all understand that with the decline of the deer herd, so declines the need for their hounds because there will be less lions to hunt.

A wise old DWR Officer once told me that when you loose your BASE HERD it is very, very hard to get it back and it does not take much to keep the herd from rebounding. He also said that the Southern Region does not bounce back as fast as the Northern Region and he comment that he did not know why.

Without poison, regardless how hard they are hunted, they will always be there. I believe coyotes and elk - yes elk are more of a contributing factor to low numbers of deer, than lions in a lot of areas.
 
I love the idea that a lion can learn to stay away from a road, its the same type of thinking that an animal activist has. That's that an animal has the ability to reason. "If I cross a road 2 miles back then dogs catch me" Really? you really believe that any animal has that ability to think on that level? Big deer get big because the learn to respond to pressure, a lion cannot have the ability to think if he crossed a road 8 hrs ago that has anything to do with him getting caught.
 
I agree with 95% of what you wrote but would disagree on killing more than ever adding that in the days of trapping, poisoning and shooting for bounty we could not make predators extinct in a time when game was plentiful.

Now habitat which we cannot get back and poor management which many don't wanna do anything about are the main things that have our herds in trouble along with predation which we can do something about.

I don't want predators to be extinct but feel it is the one thing we can control without an act of congress to help our herds.

I guess my point is we can't change the fact that we live on or develop habitat and we can't find a way to feed or transplant deer (something I don't believe by the way) so winter range habitat is at a stalemate. Management is also because people refuse to compromise on their chosen opinion (opportunity/trophy management) and I am no exception here. So the natural answer IMO is strict predator control.

Flame away!

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
Call it what you want, thinking or responding. I really can't believe you said that. I can tell you never hunted deer in the desert. Those giant buck, who have been hunted very little, can evade the best hunter thru some of the most fascinating antics you've ever seen. I guess it depends on your definition of thinking. I seen some really dumb dogs who take a lot of training and some really smart dogs who require very little training. Cats are the same way. Just like deer getting smarter in the fall, I think cats who have been tree'd a few times in the snow learn to RESPOND to hounders being on the prowl when the snow hits.

Kick a dog a couple of times and they will either stay away from you or bite you. Just ask our UP&L meter-reader. Our dog was in a dog run and our neighbor saw him spray the dog with pepper spray, because she was barking at him. We alway knew when he was in the neighborhood because she would go crazy every time he entered the block.

They remember! :)
 
Bill,

It seems like you agree with 15% not 95%, The interesting part is that we have had strict Cougar management for the last 10 years and cant seem to kill the quotas each year and our deer herd continues to struggle. We all know that without using 1080 on coyotes we'll never be able to slow them down. It seems that we strict predator management either falls 2 ways 1-doesnt make a difference(lions) 2-cant happen(coyotes).

Sounds like our deer herd is doomed if you ask me.

CB,

I agree with you that deer develop tactics to evade a hunter. What I am saying is that there is now way that any animal could make the connection that it got pressured 8 hours after it crossed a road and that it shouldn't cross roads from now on. No doubt there are a few lions that rarely cross them, but that isn't because the "learned" not to.

The point I am pushing here is the old definition of insanity "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a new result" Lion control is something we have tried and succeeded at for the last 15+ years and it has made no difference.
 
Animals are smarter than people give them credit. I once had a horse that could open up the horse trailer.
 
Animals are smarter than people give them credit. I once had a horse that could open up the horse trailer.

I have seen coues deer crawl on their bellies to keep from being seen.
 
I can side with JordanH to a certain extent. Mountain lions are known to be selective when it comes to kills. More so atleast than coyotes. A large male typically will target bucks which makes sense for management purposes... (especially since there are many on this forum who will never shoot a 2pt for the sake of meat in the freezer on the last day)

Coyotes should be more of a concern for herd management as they consume a large amount of does and fawns. They also do not operate on the concept of stealth and when winter comes they really do a number on the herd by harrassing them to over excertion.

On the general season hunt this year I observed close to 30 different bucks as well.
 
Your right Jordan...........

It is about 15% of what you say that I agree with.

I think some states hunt cats as hard as they should be and some like Kali not even close but I don't think its possible to overhunt them or they would have been extinct back in the days of poison and bounties. IMO.

Bring back 1080 for the dogs is something I could agree with.

Bill


Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
+1 jordanH I could not have said it better myself. Cannonball it is funny no matter how much I beat my dog he won't quit chasing cars. It is crazy to think that lions are smart enough to not cross a road. However I do believe that they will relocate to an new area if they are getting a lot of pressure. Another thing to consider look at the average of lions being killed. I would be extremely surprised if the average age is over 2 1/2 years old. Finding and killing a mature Tom lion is EXTREMELY difficult. That should be indicator enough that lion numbers are being kept in check.

Happy Hunting!
 
In a previous blog, I told of my experience in Cedar City where in a RAC Meeting a young DWR Biologist said that hunting lions would not help the deer population. I came unglued when that was his indication, but he went on to say that to control the lion population the female needs to be shot rather than the male and what we are doing in Utah is not doing much good.
 
Funny how when someone gets on here and says there are no big bucks any more someone always points out how smart they are and they are out there but are hard to get, then you get guys claiming that nobody is getting mature toms anymore and that is because they aren't there. Haha.

If you think the time you ran an immature tom and turned him down after treeing him didn't educate him on roads,people and hounds I got a bridge I'll sell you.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
Also, generally speaking a successful predator is smarter than it's quarry considering it has to outsmart it to eat. Prey animals are built to flee when they notice predators and outsmart their food which is plants. So as a baseline the predator is naturally smarter than it's prey and both learn and get smarter from there which is why some prey make it to old age and get big so it would stand to reason the predators are doing the same.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
5 topics with the same argument about Lions may not be enough, will someone please start another?

horsepoop.gif


Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-11 AT 08:31AM (MST)[p]There aren't as many lions as the early 90's because we let them get out of control, but there are still plenty of lions out there today.
 
Looks like some good arguments filled with fact(insert sarcasm).

Huntingdad,
Are you telling me that you really believe that a lion can make the connection that hours after it crossed a road that it was ran up a tree because it crossed the road? That is ridiculous! It is one thing if lions where standing on the road and someone turned loose on it with hounds, but to make that connection- impossible.

If you really believe this here is a link for some people that would like your money. www.humanesociety.org


Cannonballs,
your post makes no sense being as that the average lion killed in utah is a 2 year old female. Sounds like good management to me.


Elitehornhunter,

What indicators do you have that there are plenty of lions out there today? you saw them? your buddy's dad's friend saw them? everyone says it? or do you have any real statistics or studies that prove there are "plenty of lions" out there?
 
Jordan I never in any of my posts said that, show me where?!

But I will say that most cats are wilder than 90% of the deer in the woods just by their nature. What percentage of the deer herd lives close to the road? What percentage of the MATURE deer herd lives close to the road? Aren't deer one of the cats' prey animals? Wouldn't cats live where their prey are?

So what percentage of cats do YOU think live next to and regularly cross a road? What percentage of mature Toms do you think don't care about pressure and people and live next and regularly cross the road?

Instead of whining and talking like you are THE experts on cats why not take advantage of it when deer hunters tell you where they are seeing cats away from the road, if a deer hunter tells a deer hunter where he sees a LOT of big bucks in an area away from pressure the person he told most likely won't accuse him of lying because it is reasonable to believe and I think it's also reasonable to believe the cats are going to be more populous away from the road, no?

Nice link by the way , I didn't even click on it . What you and other bunny huggers read is of no concern to me.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
huntindad4 wrote: "Instead of whining and talking like you are THE experts on cats why not take advantage of it when deer hunters tell you where they are seeing cats away from the road, if a deer hunter tells a deer hunter where he sees a LOT of big bucks in an area away from pressure the person he told most likely won't accuse him of lying because it is reasonable to believe and I think it's also reasonable to believe the cats are going to be more populous away from the road, no?"

Jordan H. read the above and learn. Are there any of you hounders out there that don't just drive the roads until you cut a track? Less deer = less lions. The reduction of deer should equate to the reduction in lions using a base line of deer in its hay-day. Of course we need realistic counts and we need to factor in something for elk and factor something out for the poison we can't now use. In the good o' days when the deer herds had a down swing, the lions starved to death, because there were a few rabbits and such to see them through the winter. Now with the elk herds, they have some substitute meat. Elk, being an animal who stays away from the road more than deer, changes the whole complexion of the mix.
 
I am by no means an expert, I have however read and re read the numbers, reports and every study that I can get my hands on.

Cats unlike deer are travelers as a matter of fact one of the females that was collared on the oquirh study was later killed in western colorado, I don't doubt that there are some that stay away from roads but most will eventually come to a road and when they do cross there will be someone there to run them.

Regardless you're both high if you think hound guys are unwilling to get off the roads. Plenty of em hike and ride horses into rough country looking for sign.
 
That's good!! The only ones I know ride their trucks up and down the back roads looking for a cougar crossing.
 
This is a great post. I would like to add my 2 cents. too many deer in Utah? Can we have too many? Our herd is in a bad way. What we really need is a bigger herd. The only way to accomplish that is to grow more does. There are many things out there to consider when doing this. But the one we can control is to stop killing does. Why are we killing does when our herd numbers are not up to objective. Doe hunts should be outlawed. I understand that farmers/ranchers have issues with deer eating crops but there needs to be another way to manage the problem without shooting them. Any thoughts and ideas would be great. We need to get together on this as sportsmen. We have plenty of ideas about improving our buck to doe ratio, and having more bucks but that is not the entire answer. We need more deer.
 
Again you are trying to twist my words by saying hound hunters don't get out and walk Jordan, I think it may be the case with the ones who can't find a cat but not all.

Also isn't it mainly mature toms hounders are after? I bet if you study the collar results for them it would show a very reclusive and territorial animal that travels only when necessary to follow prey.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
I use to subscribe to the idea that lions were to blame for a declining deer herd. That is, until I spent several days a field this year trying to chase one down. We cut hundreds of miles worth of remote roads, we put on the packs and the snow shoes and covered many miles on foot. I'm here to tell you, there are not lions everywhere as some may imagine. I'm not a houndsmen, just a hunter telling it like it is.
 
>I bet
>if you study the collar
>results for them it would
>show a very reclusive and
>territorial animal that travels only
>when necessary to follow prey.
>
>
>Bill

Think about it Bill, if a mule deer is smart enough to move away from human danger in an area what makes you think they're dumb enough to stick around if a cougar set up camp in a small area and didn't move?? I think you underestimate the intelligence of mule deer. The fact is that deer are smart enough to move away from danger and cougars have adapted by never staying in one place too long.

This is why the argument that cougar have somehow learned not to cross a road has never made sense to me. If there is a road in their territory, they are going to cross it....that is just the way a cougar brain is hard wired.
 
It's really not about being smart enough to not cross a road, it's about being harassed, caught and released by the hounders and moving back into the wilderness, or the rough rocky areas where the hounders are not.

Years ago I was at Lake Tahoe and talked to a biologist from California. He was talking about the big horn sheep in that area. They could not figure out why they were dying off. The sheep were staying up on the very top of the mountain and the best that they could ascertain after much study was that the mountain lions were so prevalent in the lower country that they stayed high to elude them and starved to death. Right or wrong that was their conclusion.
 
I think we should all stop worrying about the lions and take classes from Jutin_Ledoux_It... Anybody that can find that many bucks in the Northern Region- deserves a PhD... :D I'd buy his DVD...

ps- I'm not joking...



"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
Your using facts from californian wildlife biologists! Lol when you think you've seen it all silly deer hunters use calififornia as a example. FYI its illegal to hunt Mt lions in California. That should prove a small difference
 
You're missing the point timothy, animals(lions) do learn to stay away from animals(people) even if they make the wrong choice and starve to death. Is it a conditioned response or is it reasoning(thinking), make your choice and read up on rat behavior.
Sorry for using an analogy, but it gets the point across.

All I can say is (all) animals do change their habits depending on pressures in their environment. That's a given. Good grief!
 
Cannonball,

You're wrong about lions, you don't have experience following them and I can guarantee that you haven't read any of the studies. They have 8 collared lions tight now on the oquirhs that will prove you wrong every day of the week. They get chased as much or more than any lions and they can't be killed as long as they where those collars. They constantly cross the roads and show no signs of avoidance.
 
As I remember the Oquirh Mountain Range they have no place to go to get away from hounders and also that's where their food source is found. What I am saying is that mountain range does not have an expansive intermediate area in which to reside.

Common sense tell us that any pursued animal will find seclusion, if chased, unless the food source is gone then they hit the valley of which is happening in many occupied neighborhoods. We never use to see cougars in our Southern Utah valley, but we seen them now. Usually the young cats, the old ones are high enough to keep in the food source such as elk or other animals.
 
All the old hound guys I've talked to that have been in the game for 30, 40 years have always said the lions especially toms move to a while new area. I've never heard that they just hole up at the top,of the,mountain. When they say whole new area, the lions traveled miles to get away from the pressure.
 
The Oquirhs have no where for the lions to get away from the pressure? Ever heard of Camp Williams how about Kennecott? Hundreds of thousands of acres of 100% no hound pressure.
 
Camp Williams is where they're always shooting and Kenecott is where they are alway blasting. If there's water, feed and deer (elk)there, there's also those collared lions.

Let me take the devil's advocate now and say the lion numbers are way, way down - - so are the deer numbers way down, my friend. When your numbers are below a base herd(the number required to keep a herd)and there is such a number the game management people just don't realize what a good number is yet. Since lions roam - All predators should be killed in that unit until the deer numbers rebound, and of course you can never get rid of all of them. They tried that in the 50's and 60's and even with poison.

There were very few elk on the Fishlake back then and it took years and years before they even started to see any increase in numbers because the number were below that base. Now that the elk herds are big, the deer have to contend with the elk because they(the elk) become a substitute food source for the lions, which in the past, meant very few deer, very few lions, but that's not the case now.

Summary: Lions (conditioned)think, elk are a secondary predator to deer, and most deer units in Utah are at or below the carrying base numbers. My final say.
 
The blasting and shooting is only on very very small fractions of their huge properties so I don't think that argument holds much water..

While in theory I can understand what you're saying about low deer numbers and predators. The study done on the Monroe in conjunction illustrates perfectly what I am arguing here.

The Monroe unit has essentially had the lions killed off of the unit to the point where when a lion wandered into the unit from a neighboring unit and the biologists where able to catch and collar it, they where able to gather almost no data because that lion was harvested by sport hunters almost immediately. In the time frame that they have been doing this, the deer herd has shown no response, as a matter of fact they continue to decline. So does killing off lions help a struggling deer herd?

I am sure that if we faced a California type lion population that it could become an issue. However that is not the case and our issues are much much larger than lions.

The argument that predators are the only thing that we can control again makes sense from a theory stand point but the actual science doesn't back it up. If we continue to beat the same drum for the next 10 years we will find ourselves in a very bad position.

I like all of you want a brighter future in the sport of both Mule Deer hunting and Hounding for my sons. I like most of you have at one time of my life beat the "lion's are the issue drum". I'm not the brightest dude but I am smart enough to look at the numbers, studies and data and realize we have real issues and the lion has been the whipping boy.
 
Jordan, Funny I live right under Monroe Mountain and I keep hearing about lions being seen in the valley and on the Monroe Mountain. Suppose all people are liars?

Now suppose again that you are right and this is where the base herd is a factor. Remember the elk - and of course other predators (coyotes) also? The DWR and Big Game Board only know how to react rather than act. Once the base herd was gone, then and only then did they act and that was after the fact. A few years back in the winter between Glenwood and Annabella,we would count 800+ deer , then it was 500, then it was 300, and on down, AND NOW - a person would be lucky to count 30 deer in the same area - - AND - - THERE WERE LIONS EVERYWHERE AT THAT TIME. Maybe there is very few lions now, but the base herd is gone.

Where do I think the problem is? The DWR's method of counting deer and their reactionary type of thinking. THIS IS NOT ONLY HAPPENING ON MONROE MOUNTAIN. In southern Utah, any avid deer hunter, has seen this coming for 25 years now and all the screaming and yelling, or just conversation has went against deaf ears. For thirty years I have said that elk herds are detrimental to the deer herd along with too many predators. Their response was - I DON'T THINK ELK EAT DEER!
 
Its funny how hounders whine about there not being enough Lions in UT cuz I whine about there not being enough deer! Post it in hounds where others will sympathize with you..... don't try to pick fights in the mule deer section
 
Yawning. deer hunter guy thinks predators are smart, hound hunter guy says there not, Deer hunter guy says they are, hound guy says there not....and so on. Can you guys PLEASE argue about something else.....Please! I am off work today and was really looking forward to reading something interesting on MM today. booner.
 
I don't think people are liars, I'm sure that they think they saw a lion or a track or a lion kill. I do know that it has been almost impossible for the Mechams(some of Utah's best lion hunters) to help Professor Wolfe find lions to collar and track in that unit.

I understand that the base herd is gone, I'm not arguing that but I am saying that with the lions now at the lowest densities in the state the deer herd on Monroe still isn't improving.

Boner,

You're days off are different than mine if you're here to entertain yourself...
 
your entertaining me just fine.
By the way, I agree with the deer hunter, and I am a hound hunter lol!!
Maybe that is the problem with the utard houndsman...they all think the critters they are after are dumb........ :)
 
Booner, You are in as big of a rut as we are. Go to another subject if you don't like it. I'm here to teach the hounders, but it isn't working. :)
 
Well C-ball, As far as teaching hound hunters something.....good luck, we already know it all. :)
My two cents on the whole cougar, Mule deer thing.
Talk to a cat hunter and most will tell you to find a cat track sometimes you look for day's. Ask the same cat hunter how many coyote tracks he see's in 1 day, you will probably get the same answer from all, TONS.
High Elk numbers I wouldnt think help a struggling deer population, but what is killing the bulk of your deer as far as eating them? it aint rocket science. And anybody that spends more than 3 days a year in the woods should be able to tell.
Wait till you guys in Utah get a population of wolves like we have in WI, then you will have something to scream about. booner.
 

Similar threads

tnvol
SE Utah general unit vs Colorado units
Replies
7
Views
831
littlebighorn
littlebighorn
BrowningRage
Recommendation Gen Season Rifle Deer for family?
Replies
1
Views
432
BrowningRage
BrowningRage
D
Mule deer decline in Utah
Replies
37
Views
929
ridgetops
ridgetops

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

2052311F-43CA-4F4D-A41E-FAE1E97F4A64.jpeg
95104.jpeg
FB_IMG_1639847126641.jpg
00small63007254.jpg
IMG_0747.JPG
20160820_085929.jpg
IMG_7167 copy.jpg
7C5293FF-940E-47B6-AA4F-9F9D477F296C.jpeg
Mr. Back Forks the Bully
2020.jpeg
IMG_6374.jpeg
ECCB9D3A-83D8-49CB-A593-F886BBC3447C.jpeg
Back
Top Bottom